Archive: 19 posts

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Hi everyone! I'm onto creating my second level (my first being a 'familiar' puzzle platformer under the name 'Locoroco ver 2) and there are obviously some levels in the LBP community that surpass others in quality. Altough this quality is often determined by story, art style and of course the mechanics/uniqueness behind the level/objects, there may be certain features to put in the level can make it much more enjoyable. These features may be like: Multiple Routes Subtle puzzles/hidden areas Length/time taken to complete the level Vehicles Bosses/Sub-bosses Sidekicks/partners I'm particularly interest in the Time taken' as although you wants the level to absorb and 'suck you in' throughout a running story, it can get extremely repetive frustrating after so long. What i'm really asking for is your views on if the above or any other optional features can really improve a level and how long you feel a good level should take to complete. Thanks for reading and I look forward to any feedback that i may then be able to use in my upcoming level-Contrast Kingdom.

2009-03-15 00:24:00 Author: Nintendoholic Posts: 7

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What makes a great level? Make sure your Level is well polished and has good visuals A big thing for me is Polish, for lack of a better term, which encompasses a lot of things - checkpoints in bad spots, objects which shouldn't be moveable, getting stuck or killed due to "bugs" which could have been designed differently, and many other little things like that. I also love decorations and levels with good visual style, or at least visuals that appeal to me. I know it may not seem right to place visuals over gameplay, but I really do show more preference to aesthetics than anything else. Before you even move your sackboy, you are immediately given an onslaught of optical stimulation when entering a level and I believe that this is the first impression. A well-written story with good characters can really make a good level Sure, anyone can have a square piece of material, put a sticker on and attach a magic mouth. But it's just far more interesting when they make them a bit more animated. It helps with player immersion. I guess I am a little biased here since my levels are story-driven but I really appreciate a great tale. Some of my favourite levels have epic/immersive stories with fantastic writing that keeps me engaged from beginning to end. There is a difference between frustrating and challenging Challenging levels can be fun, but frustrating levels rarely are. I know this sounds obvious but many level authors don't know the difference. In order to make their levels "challenging" they add REALLY frustrating and touchy jumping sequences, and easy ways to die. Few things are more irritating than getting past a long and difficult obstacle, only to die in a fire pit obscured by a tree or a rock. Matters are only made worse when the last checkpoint was before the previous obstacle. The difference between challenging and frustrating is slightly difficult to judge though, mostly because the line that's drawn changes with each person. Your level needs to have innovative and original game play These "see how many stairs you can climb in 28 minutes" levels don't amuse me. I like something I would NEVER have thought of myself, a great concept that's never been done before. My biggest gripe about poor game play is pretty simple... lack of innovation. Anyone who has followed my posts at LBW knows that my biggest peeve death-trap is slabs of electrified or fiery material embedded in the ground. I'm talking plain old rectangular slabs stuck in series in the floor. They look like crap... they're hard, and boring as hell. Good game play does NOT equal beating a player over the head with the difficulty stick. A good level must use sound and music effectively Sound is another thing that's overlooked. Anyone can make a door, just get a block of material and attach a piston to it. But it shows attention to detail when they put sound effects to match it. Music is also overlooked but is important to setting the mood. Use music, but not switch it around too much. Switching the music might break the immersion, it depends on the situation but if you switch around the music too much it nearly always starts to stand out. Experiment with the interactive pieces of music, use the different sliders to evoke a mood (more drums, less melody for a high tempo section for example) this way you can more smoothly change your music. Custom content makes your level stand-out Originality is a big deal to me as well. If you have a single story object in your level that isn't an LED light, a thin object, or some such justifiable effect thing... then I won't take it seriously, and just overlook its flaws. I'm with Ninja on going 100% custom content. Obviously some pre-made objects have to be used since they cannot be created (bottles, vases, etc), but when I see things like the jade snake in a level, my enthusiasm for the level dies, because it comes across as a cheap ripoff. If you're going to re-use an idea, at least have the decency to remake it and put your own personal touch to it. Blatant speeling eroors relly are annoying I know this will most likely end at the bottom of the list, but blatant spelling errors really turn me off playing many levels. I agree, or using "leet speak" or using words like "lol" and such, it just seems so unprofessional. Taken from my thread here (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=t=9013)

2009-03-15 16:48:00 Author: Coxy224 Posts: 2645

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If a level is not visually appealing i most likely will not play it its got to look good

2009-03-15 16:51:00 Author: Sonic5411 Posts: 712

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Visually appealing. If I start and looks rubbish, I generally quit out, it shows a lack of care in the level. They should be well playtested also, by yourself and others. Theres nothing worse than getting so far and the level breaking and you not being able to continue, or being forced to pop sackboy.

2009-03-15 21:38:00 Author: GruntosUK Posts: 1754

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I know I'm already quoted above, but the TC had some specific requests, and I have more to add. - The longer the level, the less likely people are to finish it. I learned this lesson with Shadow Moses. It was long and difficult, and the number of people on the scoreboard was only about 5% of the playcount. Presume that people who don't finish the level don't give good ratings OR hearts. Shadow Moses takes over 15 minutes to complete if you know what you're doing and try to get and do everything. I'm sure a first time player takes 30 minutes. This is too long. I suggest making your level no more than 10 minutes long. - Decide now what matters more to you, plays or hearts. Levels with good replay value will end up with bad heart-to-play ratios, especially if they are good levels. On the plus side, they will have lots of plays and will almost assuredly land on the cool levels pages. Hidden areas add some replay value, so long as they aren't so hidden that nobody ever finds them. If you want real replay value, turn your level into a score/survival challenge. - Levels with any *hint* of difficulty will be rated poorly even if their quality is over the top. Children make up a majority of the LBP community, from what I've seen. Kids are also very harsh and bad judges. They don't care whether you left some switches or dark matter visible, they care whether they can reach the scoreboard before their attention span runs out or they die. If you want a highly rated level with lots of hearts, make it fun and almost boringly easy. - Kids love gimmicks, which is why rocket-car levels tend to do surprisingly well despite they number in the thousands and lack any sense of innovation or effort. Vehicles, ice slides, recognizable trademarked characters - very popular with kids. Adults on the other hand, tend to appreciate innovation - elegant and complex machinery, lush visuals, mood, problem-solving/puzzles. You will never keep both camps happy, so I say design what you want. I say try to incorporate at least 2-3 "new" things in every level, and by new I mean things you've never seen in any other level.

2009-03-15 21:59:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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I know I'm already quoted above, but the TC had some specific requests, and I have more to add. - The longer the level, the less likely people are to finish it. I learned this lesson with Shadow Moses. It was long and difficult, and the number of people on the scoreboard was only about 5% of the playcount. Presume that people who don't finish the level don't give good ratings OR hearts. Shadow Moses takes over 15 minutes to complete if you know what you're doing and try to get and do everything. I'm sure a first time player takes 30 minutes. This is too long. I suggest making your level no more than 10 minutes long. - Decide now what matters more to you, plays or hearts. Levels with good replay value will end up with bad heart-to-play ratios, especially if they are good levels. On the plus side, they will accumulate plays quickly almost assuring them a front page spot on cool levels. - Levels with any *hint* of difficulty will be rated poorly even if their quality is over the top. Children make up a majority of the LBP community, from what I've seen. Kids are also very harsh and bad judges. They don't care whether you left some switches or dark matter visible, they care whether they can reach the scoreboard before their attention span runs out or they die. If you want a highly rated level with lots of hearts, make it fun and almost boringly easy. Some very useful tips there. Basically, you have to make a choice from the get-go whether you want the level to appeal to the mainstream audience (who are generally very young and will most likely quit your level and/or not give good ratings and hearts at the first sign of difficulty they encounter within the level) or to the other 1-5% of players (who on the other hand will usually appreciate your work if they see that you've put some effort into it). This choice alone makes more of a difference than any other, and will influence every aspect of the level, from visibility to music, from picking the materials to publishing practices and promotion.

2009-03-15 22:08:00 Author: sny Posts: 144

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two words. Rocket Cheetahs.

2009-03-15 22:09:00 Author: xkappax Posts: 2569

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two words. Rocket Cheetahs. LOL - so true. I tend to put more emphasis on visuals when building and playing. Best levels find a balance of these where they look good but have some challenge and some technical skill too. That said, I can really appreciate a level with an incredibly complex boss who isn't too nice to look at if the complexity of the switches and overall mechanics really shine. I think the posts above nailed it though - every player is going to have their own idea about what is too hard or not pretty enough. It's hard to please everyone at the same time.

2009-03-15 22:19:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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On level length I will second (third?) making the level not too long. I you (creator) can speedrun it in 5-8 minutes, it's good. Most players will take a bit longer (not knowing the obstacles, enjoying the scenery). Check out MM's levels, they're mostly in the same length, sometimes even shorter. Don't be so arrogant that you think you can enjoy a public for more than 10 minutes with a level, LBP is best experienced in brief, seperate bits.

2009-03-16 09:40:00 Author: Wyth Posts: 263

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My hunch is that it's not so much about actual time spent, but perceived time, or event "heaviness". At some point in the level, usually just after a difficult challenge, I find myself hoping for a scoreboard around the corner (with the good levels, it's usually there, too ). This goes for storyline events as well as challenge events. It's like tension arcs in movies. Tension builds up, relaxes for a bit, builds to a new high, repeating until the climax. Too many ups and downs and the story starts to feel winding. I would say the listed features (except timing) are not mandatory for a great level, but side/secret stuff and vehicles/slides have an appeal to different audiences, and bosses or sidekicks help towards making it unique.

2009-03-16 14:26:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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I don't think having a longer level is a must. Sometimes I feel like getting sucked into a level or sometimes I want a quick, fun, survival challenge type level. I'd only make a long level if your absolutely sure if you've sucked the player in either visually or story-wise. If you have, the player won't mind a longer level, if you haven't, then the chances are the player will find the level tiring and annoying.

2009-03-17 16:47:00 Author: olit123 Posts: 1341

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There are definately a lot of variables. The popularity of the level is going to be determined by length, difficulty, looks, gameplay... combinations of all of the above. For instance, if you have a challenging level shorter is probably better for popularity. If you have a pretty and easy level, longer is probably better for popularity. But then again, you need to determine also who you're making the game for. If having 10,000 screaming kids play it isn't important to you and you want to just create a really good game YOU like, the possibilities are endless.

2009-03-17 17:03:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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There are definately a lot of variables. The popularity of the level is going to be determined by length, difficulty, looks, gameplay... combinations of all of the above. For instance, if you have a challenging level shorter is probably better for popularity. If you have a pretty and easy level, longer is probably better for popularity. But then again, you need to determine also who you're making the game for. If having 10,000 screaming kids play it isn't important to you and you want to just create a really good game YOU like, the possibilities are endless. YES. Creators out there should always keep this in mind. Just trying to cather to the largest audience doesn't necessarily make your creating process enjoyable. Never lose sight of what YOU feel like creating. What did you want to bring to LBP world? What type of level and audience does this level cather to, etc. .

2009-03-17 23:18:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Thanks for all the replies and for keeping this thread near the top of the list. All this stuff should help me with my level loads. As it will feature puzzles and be very reliant of visuals, i'll probably make it quite a short level in a series of 3 or 4. 2 or 3 puzzles in each level probably. I'm focusing on visuals/puzzles for the more grown-up users but am throwing in a sidekick that uses changable weapons also that kids may mess around with for abit. Hopefully this thread will continue to grow and I'll put the details of my level in the 'projects' section. Does anyone think sub-bosses are good in a level to break it up or just make it drag on longer when you realise your not at the end? :eek:

2009-03-17 23:23:00 Author: Nintendoholic Posts: 7

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It depends on the boss. In Splat Invaders II I technically have 3 bosses. If a boss is a lot of fun, it shouldn't matter. Just don't make a bunch of difficult bosses that you barely squeak by with your life because many people may not finish it.

2009-03-18 01:37:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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As people over on LBW know, I tend to have some very strong views towards games and what makes a good community level (vs Mm level). Before I get into the various niggly bits of why some things work and some things don't, let's clarify the difference between a Mm level and a Community level: 1) A Mm level you will play multiple times because you get things you can use (like materials, tools, etc.). 2) A Community level (rarely) offers anything useful. In fact the majority of the community levels "prizes" are not worth taking (I played a level where someone didn't know the difference between hiragana and kanji - drove me nuts - plus his "font" was criminally bad) Multiple Routes This is the ideal. A single route tends to show a stubborn design (which also tend to be easy to break). It also may mean the difference between someone finishing the level and giving up on it. We would rather they finish it, yes? Subtle puzzles/hidden areas I tend to like them, but for the most part people miss them, mostly because few people understand the concept of "hanging a lantern" (a phrase I borrowed from Hollywood) to indicate "yo, there is some hidden stuff here". Mm understands this concept and if you notice where ever there is "hidden treasure" there is some indicator (sometimes as subtle as places you can get to that are dead ends). Sometimes something as simple as light is enough to clue someone in - literally hanging a lantern! Length/time taken to complete the level Over on LBW I said that no level should last more than five minutes. That may be a bit on the short side, but it was based on some hard, cold, facts: A five minute level can be playtested 12 times in an hour. A ten minute level can be playtested 6 times in an hour. A fifteen minute level can be playtested only FOUR times in an hour. Given that few (if any) of us do this professionally, and given that playtesting is INCREDIBLY important, the more you can do, the better the level. Vehicles If the thing doesn't break and it works WITHIN the level, then I'm fine with them. Unfortunately, I've seen vehicles tossed in what seem like after-thoughts. "Oh, I can't think of anything else, how about a car?" Almost as bad as "I can't think of anything else, how about a race". Joy. : Bosses/Sub-bosses Personally, I think the concept of Bosses is over-rated. Sure, it can add a certain panache to a level if done correctly... however... many of the levels I have played the bosses have ranged from "okay" to "uh, did you know I can walk around him and finish this level?" My point is that if you are going to feature a boss that is hand crafted, you better spend a lot of time and a lot of effort on that boss. However, if you don't have the skills/time/patience, dispense with the boss altogether. Sometimes a good level ends on a "lets see JUST what is around the next corner...". That is MUCH better than a craptastic boss. Sidekicks/partners See "Bosses". Story This is an issue that bugs me the most. If you argue the view that I have put forth that a good level can AT MOST be 10 minutes long, then you really don't have time to spin much of a story. At BEST you will have a level where the majority of the time the player is closing out text boxes. Which really isn't much of a game. So what is the point of the story? Ideally, it is to guide your design of the level. To try to give it some cohesiveness -- it isn't something you sit and narrate to the player. One of my biggest complaints (even with some levels that are beautiful) is that they don't know whether they are making a game or making a movie. One of my levels (in the making) has a lot of really cool stuff - but at one point my reviewer said "so, when are you going to have the player do anything?" OUCH! Who Is The Audience? Some levels that I have reviewed people have been outright annoyed at my suggestions. One such level had a jump that was very difficult to make (and if you didn't do it at the EXACT spot, you died). I pointed out to him, that the player solves a problem, comes to this point and then dies. You have effectively punished the player for making the right choice. He refused to change it because he liked it that way. My point is that he was making the level for himself. Which guaranteed him an audience of ONE. Everyone else will end up hitting that point and "die,die,die,die, do you want to restart?" - and he will wonder why no one finishes. Looks vs. Game play I would rather play a great game that had few fancy graphics than something with great graphics and no game play (hey, wait, I've played some of those!). Here is one of those fun games with simple graphics: "World of Colour" YouTube - LittleBigPlanet - World of Colour You don't have to be a graphics designer (or know computer graphics) to make a great level. So Where Do We Go From Here? Obviously a lot of this is broad strokes/50,000 foot-metre view of things. There are a lot of things even I have yet to sort out in my head. And, as with everything, I tend to modify my position as time progresses.

2009-03-19 23:25:00 Author: feloneouscat Posts: 89

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YES. Creators out there should always keep this in mind. Just trying to cather to the largest audience doesn't necessarily make your creating process enjoyable. Never lose sight of what YOU feel like creating. What did you want to bring to LBP world? What type of level and audience does this level cather to, etc. . Many people mistake the "catering to the masses" with "catering to an audience" - the two concepts are not the same. Unless you do not care if someone plays your level (in which case, why publish?), then somewhere, some part of you cares about the audience. If you want to create a super-hard-super-difficult-with-extra-pointy-objects-on-top level, then do not be disappointed when you get very few plays (or people complaining that the level is impossible). I DO agree that you should make the level you feel like making. However, if you are publishing it with hopes of "making it big", then you know what you have to do. I've published two game levels. One was absolute crap and the other was pretty good. Fortunately the first one was the crappy one, so I must have learned something, eh?

2009-03-19 23:41:00 Author: feloneouscat Posts: 89

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On the sub bosses thing, it can be good, it can be bad. I think a sub boss could be used at the end of the level, if you are making a series, or multiple parts. If you are making one straight level, it may not be such a good idea. Instead, have the main boss fight you partly. ie. In my "Legend of Maui" levels, in the Taniwha's lair, what I am going to do is make it so you face him after every puzzle/room. After a fairly brief encounter he will run off, and you will chase him. Imo this is fine, it offers a break from platforming/puzzling and builds tension. However, having 2 or 3 mediocre bosses isn't as good as one amazing one. Also, a lot of the points the guy above said are VERY contriversial. For example, story can be presented well. OCK and NinjaMcWiz in paticular make great, story-driven levels. The whole thing is PICK AN AUDIENCE! The audience in my next levels for example is fairly broad. There are parts (such as the Tarzan sequence) that kids will enjoy, and it isn't incredibly challenging. It also has a focus on visuals, which they will hopefully enjoy. As I continue in the series, it will become possibly shorter. The levels will all be fairly short though, because of the thermometer. I would NEVER lose quality for quantity, and will never hate on a creator that is forced to shorten their levels, such as Morgana25, as long as they keep making levels, rather than using it as an excuse for them being short. Levels can also be long and good looking, like Azure palace. The reason this level can be so long but so good looking is simply because of the material use. Basic Wood and Sponge will take up the same thermo as Floral Fabric and Oak Tree, but will look half as good.

2009-03-20 08:31:00 Author: dkjestrup Posts: 672

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well the thing about LBP is that you can make any type of level. The quality of your level does not come from the type of level you choose to make, but from how well you make it. Some are story based levels, some are action/puzzle/shooting or whatever. There is no right or wrong. Plenty of people like the story levels. I would also say that you don`t need multiple routes. They often tend to be confusing, with people not sure if they`re going the right way and end up with people missing things in your level. Just because a level is linear, doesn`t mean it`s not good. Hell look at Drake`s Fortune. One path, but it`s a cracking game.

2009-03-20 14:39:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096

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