Archive: 11 posts

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I've been spending some time thinking of level design recently and I figured this forum would be an excellent place to collect some opinions. What types of platforming elements do you personally find enjoyable? I'll list some examples from the game and let people chime in with their opinions and also add their own types of platforming elements as well for anything I don't cover. Gardens Assemble Steps: You can drag and otherwise manipulate blocks to make yourself a step so you can get to a higher ledge. You do this with the horses as well as some sponge blocks. Forgiving Timing: Like the windmill at a mini-golf course, this takes something that is very basic and wouldn't otherwise be fun (putting in a straight-line to the hole) and makes it interesting by introducing a timing element. We see a lot of this with the ghosts in the 3rd Gardens stage Skate to Victory. Ghosts often appear in straight sections where sackboy could otherwise simply walk through or near spots that would otherwise be trivial jumps. The slow, periodic movement of the ghosts forces the player to time sackboy's movements to get through. Forgiving Launches: These are also seen in the 3rd Gardens stage Skate to Victory in at least two spots. You've got the windmills at the beginning and later the boots. In both of these spots you've got a jump that sackboy can't do on his own. He can't even come close. Instead he needs the momentum of the mechanism to launch him through the air and over an obstacle. I call this a forgiving launch because there's no time limit involved and the landing zone is large. There's not a lot of precision required to get the jump correct. Savanna Swinging: It's in the title of the first stage and is a staple of LBP platforming. Use a (hopefully decorated) sponge attached to a rope and swing across an obstacle. The monkeys are a good example of this. Swings can be chained together so you need to jump from swing to swing and the difficulty tuned depending on the distance of the actual jump as well as the size of the platform you are trying to land on. Platforms Moving the Wrong Way: The stampedes add a very basic form of a moving platform into the game for the first time. Prior to this most of the jumping is done from stable objects. Here the ground is no longer solid. It moves and you've got to adjust your jumping to make it work. In addition, since the platforms are moving in the opposite direction you need to do it quickly or else you'll be carried back to the beginning. Bouncing: The merkats add a new type of aerial gameplay in the form of bouncing. You've got "trampolines," which can give you a big jump to reach high areas. The skill comes from getting the correct initial trajectory and then maneuvering sackboy while he's in the air to his goal. Wedding Springing: The first wedding stage adds in spring platforms. These are similar to the bouncing platforms from the merkats, except you've got to repeatedly jump higher and higher by timing your landing and subsequent jumps correctly. Mount & Dismount: This is an advancement of the assemble steps puzzle found way back in the Gardens. Now, the step moves on its own instead of you dragging it. The difficulty comes from figuring out how to get it to move as you want, which is more puzzle than platforming. However, the area is also broken into places where you need to be on the platform and areas where you need to jump off the platform. This mounting and dismounting at the proper times is where the platforming element is found. The presence of darkness in the example helps obscure distant obstacles and forces sackboy to react faster when they suddenly come upon him. Side Scrolling: The final stage in the weddings has, what is essentially a side scrolling challenge, where sackboy must outrun the bride. The requirement that sackboy must keep moving makes an otherwise easy set of jumps into a challenge. Canyons Dragging Explosives: The canyons first level introduces explosives. This is an upgrade of the old "forgiving timing" platforming element because it is no longer so forgiving. Make a mistake and the explosive goes off and you've got to try again. Pushing carts of trigger explosives and flying with contact explosives are both examples of this same basic challenge. Fast Cart Rides: Here we get our first really challenging moving platforms. The platforms move really fast (and therefore this doesn't work going the wrong way) and they are really small. Jumping to grab prize bubbles while moving can land you outside the cart. Likewise, jumping between two carts requires precise timing. Dodging: In the last canyons level we get a new form of challenge in the shape of dodging attacks (which is an upgrade to the old timing platforming element). Here you've got to dodge firesnakes, falling rocks and finally bombs while fighting the boss. Metropolis Bouncing Obstacles: In this stage we have cars that you use to bounce up. However, unlike the old bouncing which was done to get somewhere, here you now have the added difficulty of needing to avoid deadly obstacles while in the air. Moving Obstacles: Here we've got another type of moving platform, this time in the form of subway cars. These are longer than the mine carts so you don't need to worry about your landings quite as much. However, you now have obstacles that you need to jump over while moving. Some are deadly, while some will just knock you off your platform (which is also deadly). Elevators: Another platforming element here is standing on an elevator and avoiding gas as it goes up and down. Tipping Platforms: In the final stage you've got the introduction of the tipping platform in the form of the hanging steel beams. Stackboy needs to move back and forth on these without tipping them over all the way in order advance to the next area. Islands Precise Jumps: In the first islands level we are introduced to the most demanding jumping yet. The platforms are tiny and sometimes involve timings as well. Failure to aim a jump, just right and you're going down. Precise Momentum Jumps: In the second islands level we get some spinning wheels that you need to grab onto and use their momentum to jump to the next one. Keep doing this to reach the top. They make it even harder by having some portions of wheels either be either lethal or not grabbable. Additional difficulty comes from wheels that move back and forth requiring an additional level of timing AND the fact that none of the wheels move very quickly so you don't have any wiggle room while in the air. All of these add up to mean you need incredible precision to make your jumps. Pattern Recognition: The Oni stage involves a few areas where you need to watch for a pattern before moving. Then the Oni himself requires the same thing. He'll clobber you if you don't pull the switch at the right time. Also, if you don't get the timing correct, to do it often enough, it resets. You've got to figure out the pattern to proceed. Temples Cyclic Platforms: This is similar to the previous moving platforms, except now they go back and forth. The platforms on pistons and the "ferris wheel" obstacles and even the dancers themselves fall into this category. This adds an important piece of difficulty over the previous moving platforms. You can't just ride one platform to the end of the area while dodging obstacles. You absolutely must jump from moving platform to moving platform. Shifting Ground: This obstacle blocks that move up and down. Lots of them, in a row, that aren't moving at the same time. This creates a constantly changing environment which makes jumping more difficult because not only is your start and end point moving, they are changing in relation to each other in an unpredictable manner. (Whereas with cyclic platforms one could typically wait for the two to approach closest and jump then, that is not really possible here.) Also, the addition of crushers or lethal material add difficulty. Appearing and Disappearing Platforms: This is a classic, at least as old as the first mega man game and probably older. It LBP it's done with emitters. Blocks appear, stick around for a set period of time and then vanish. You don't get a lot of overlap time to make your jumps and failure means you fall. Wilderness Falling Platforms: These platforms drop away. This means you've got to move rapidly or you'll end up falling. Often the falling platforms create new paths instead of leading to outright death. However, the new path usually doesn't have as good rewards as the first one. These are difficult to do well in LBP because falling platforms don't reset particularly well, meaning it's hard to get multiple tries at one of these areas. Turning Platforms: Forever epitomized by the giant wheel in the bunker, the turning platforms are probably one of the hardest obstacles in LBP. In these obstacles, the platform and the obstacles are both moving. Furthermore, because they are rotating instead of translating the movement rate changes depending on how close one is to the center and this makes the platform's impact on sackboy's momentum harder to anticipate. The wheel is not the only example of this. The rotating corridors above electricity are also good examples. Expanding Platforms: These are deceptively tough because some areas are moving and some aren't. This means you need to be extra careful while jumping because the ones that are moving will impart their momentum while the stationary anchors of the expanding platforms won't. Repelling: Grab a sponge and begin descending past obstacles. This actually isn't all that different from the elevators from Metropolis. However, in these areas there are a lot more obstacles to avoid. At any rate, that's enough analyzing Media Molecules platforming elements for the time being. What do you think of these different challenges? Which challenge you? Which ones make you groan and hurl your controllers at the tv? Which ones are just intrinsically fun?

2009-03-02 18:19:00 Author: dcf Posts: 468

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I like any properly made challenges. Quite any gameplay element can become frustrating when there wasn't enough attention given to it while building. I hate platforms that are to small for their own good. The physics of the game doesn't necessary let Sackboy stand correctly on them. At some point it becomes "unfun hard". I also hate tight stuff made of ice. Ice is cool but when I need to land on small things run+jump from small platforms of ice it becomes "unfun hard". Momentum jumps are also hard to pull correctly. It depends on too much variable for the physics to respond as you envision it sometimes. If your level depends too much on momentum based stuff it can become really frustrating. .

2009-03-03 17:40:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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I like most platforming elements so I'll like most of the gameplay elements in the game. My favourite gameplay elements in the game though are bouncing, side-scrolling, moving obstacles, springing, forgiving timing, platforms moving the wrong way and appearing and disappearing platforms. My least favourite elements are precise jumps and dragging explosives.

2009-03-03 21:53:00 Author: lk9988 Posts: 1077

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I like most of the obstacles in the story mode. It's really not that dependent on the type of platforming, it's more because of a good design of itself. Everything has a good difficulty and makes you feel that you are always in good enough control of your sackboy. Take away the feeling of control and you frustrate people. Taking away that feeling can be done by too small platforms, to fast moving spinners, glass in general is really likely to do this. What I didn't like in the story were the spinners in the 2nd Islands level, especially the ones that spin AND move diagonally. This introduces a double timing problem and you have to wait until both elements come together before you try it. When you have to do this 8 times in the same vertical arrangement (meaning that you'll have to do multiple ones again if you fall) is not that much fun. So avoid double timings or make it forgiving, else it'll bog down your levels

2009-03-05 07:16:00 Author: Wyth Posts: 263

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I think Wyth pretty much Hammered it to a T on this one. It's all about control. Lack of control breeds frustration, and frustration breeds bad reviews. A good level will maintain a sense control for the player, yet will also challenge a player. I think pretty much all of MM's obstacles were done in good taste and done very well. There were a few that I really did not enjoy. Some of the platforming in the Islands was frustrating, like what Wyth mentioned, as well as a few of the jumps off the hoods of the cars in the Metropolis level, where you pop up right next to electric rollers. I didn't like those either, because the car was so random about where exactly it shot you. Come to think of it, pretty much anytime I've gotten frustrated with playing LBP (note: not creating) it's been due to a lack of control. It's not that I get upset that I can't get through an obstacle, it's that the obstacle isn't challenging... it's lame. There's a very big difference between challenging and bombardment. Letting your player feel like they are in control is key... and there are PLENTY of challenges you can throw at a player without them tossing the controller aside. Put some of the above listed elements in the correct compositional orders, and you've got yourself a decent level. Personally, I'll be printing this list of descriptions out at the end of the day, today. It's a fantastic summary of what types of things you can do in LBP. For a creator with... uhh... creator's block, it's an invaluable resource to get the gears turning again. Thanks for writing this up. It's a huge help.

2009-03-05 19:46:00 Author: Inspectigater Posts: 126

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I'm glad you found the post valuable, Inspectigater. I felt I learned a lot just by thinking it all through while writing the post. Since writing this, I've also tried to go back to the story levels when making similar obstacles to see how they gradually increase the difficulty of the obstacle as the level progresses. For example, I'm currently working on a section where sackboy jumps on asteroids to get between two spaceships. I went back to replay the Dancer's Court to see how they gradually progress the cyclic platforms' difficulty and keep it fresh as the level progresses. I'm also appreciating the responses (I've thanked everyone who has given their opinion and will continue to do so). So far I'd say that there's a lot of agreement on what people enjoy. While anything can be done well and anything can be done poorly, it seems like control of sackboy is of central importance. As a result, I think I will try to keep platforming elements which give the player less control of sackboy away from the main level path. I'll still use them for point building, but avoid using them to increase difficulty. (Trampolines to collect point bubbles above = fun. Jump over a series of tiny trampolines to cross a pit = no fun.) Difficulty increases on the main path should always be based on requiring more precision from the player, not interfering with the player's ability to control sackboy's movements. Keep the opinions coming!

2009-03-05 20:15:00 Author: dcf Posts: 468

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Good discussion here. Another point: Taking away control CAN be good and give a hectic feel, but it should look hectic and really not matter in that case. Think like the race portions of the meerkat manor. You are hardly in control so it's hectic like nothing else, but it simply does not matter because you'll get to where you want to go anyway. As said above, trampolines for points (or just plain fun jumping) is good, with a lot of electricity around is not good.

2009-03-06 07:38:00 Author: Wyth Posts: 263

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It is probably just me, but I just can't get enough of the well-built "jumping platforms" or springboards (as opposed to the one's that can kill you). Absent score bubbles are a bad thing when I'm judging a level

2009-03-06 15:43:00 Author: mindphaser74 Posts: 349

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(Trampolines to collect point bubbles above = fun. Jump over a series of tiny trampolines to cross a pit = no fun.) You got it, man. Exactly true. One of the things I didn't like about the wedding level was the springboard platforming. I found those very annoying to use. Your timing had to be above average of a normal player (in my opinion) and they were just downright awful for any more than one player. Taking away control CAN be good and give a hectic feel, but it should look hectic and really not matter in that case. Think like the race portions of the meerkat manor. You are hardly in control so it's hectic like nothing else, but it simply does not matter because you'll get to where you want to go anyway. Very well said, Wyth. A lack of control can most certainly be a good thing. It can make things seem incredibly fun. But you can't let your sackboy end up dying in some cheap way. Spikes and poorly built angles on your level can easily kill a sackperson without them ever having a chance to stop it. I remember a PS1 game demo I played for a game called Blast Chamber (or Blast zone, or something like that). Basically you were in a square room with 3 other people. There were buttons and things to grab on to keep yourself from falling, but seeing that each side has a button or two, the chamber was constantly moving around throwing other players on their backs and such. It was incredibly fun (although extremely poor replay value) and totally gave you a feeling of chaos without giving you a feeling of helplessnes. A nice little extra bonus, doing these things well usually leads to good 4 player levels, too! EDIT: Hmm, that gives me a good idea for a survival challenge level!

2009-03-06 18:41:00 Author: Inspectigater Posts: 126

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I've been looking around for a while now, but I just can't find the link I wanted to post.... argh! anyways... I came across a series of notes by a professional game designer who took the time to hand draw with pencil, a basic 101 guide to "good platforming design". (If anyone has seen this link, please dig it up and repost it - I can't remember the author, sorry) The handbook brings up some very fundamental points about what makes good platforming elements and what makes bad platforming elements. Yes, a lot of it is based on control, but the other half is PERCEPTION. I tend to think of platforming elements not so much as a collection of individual challenges (really, anything can be made well or poorly). What really tends to matter is how these objects are positioned or spaced. Have a deadly obstacle or pit that needs to be jumped over? The landing platform needs to look reachable and should be spaced according to sack's jump length. Placing platforms too closely requires players to short-jump, and this can be very tedious and frustrating when the penalty for overshooting is death. Similarly, stretching your platforms out to the maximum jump distance is bad too (Ninja, I could have killed you for False Idols I here...XD) It's outside of a players mental "safe zone" to run to the very end of a platform before jumping. We feel more comfortable jumping a bit early. Given that platforming is generally about jumping and dodging, catering to perception and control is ultimately what will separate a fun experience from a frustrating one.

2009-03-06 19:40:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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shifting ground - that opens up new areas, but is used later also to open even more areas or whatever I don't think you mentioned the kneeling gypsy. I really liked that, an object that poses both two paths at the same time, or whatever turning platforms - like the last level before the boss, with the rectangles, just complex objects get me going really ^_^ expanding platforms are good too I really dislike swinging from things.. unless they're used as a weight to open up a new area, light in the kings castle. Also majorly dislike precise jumps, moving or in momentum. Format of that's all a bit messed up, sorry, hope this helps

2009-03-06 21:56:00 Author: Pinchanzee Posts: 805

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