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Community/Cool pages reshuffle.... The Aftermath. I think I may be converted?

Archive: 75 posts

When Media Molecule changed the way our levels get organised and filtered there was pretty much pandemonium amongst the harecore followers (I include myself in this), but now that nearly a week has past and you have seen the new cool levels in action do you feel any differently?

I must admit when I first saw it I was very upset thinking that all our hard work will fall into an abyss (not Jaeydens just a general one ) after only a week.

But now that I have had time to see how things are working out I'm starting to feel differently about it and dare I say I think that this move could potentially be a great step in the right direction.

OK before furiously searching for the quick reply button to tell all the faults in this hear me out.......

1 - All levels on page 1 will be gone in the next day or two.
Most of these levels have between 30,000 and 100,000 plays on them allready. That is surely enough plays for for any creator to feel like they have received enough attention for their 80 hour masterpiece. The vast majority of people have nowhere near this amount of plays.

2 - From tomorrow onwards you will see new levels appear on page 1 every day
As each level has only 7 days the cool/community levels will be a thing in constant flux. As each one goes out another new level will be right behind to take its limelight. There will new levels to play every day (which is the way it should be) and you won't be stuck playing the same stale levels day in day out. This not only makes it more fun as it is easier to find new levels but it gives creators a better chance at getting on which leads to my next point.....

It really is easy than ever before to get on.
We as a community of creators just need to be aware of the setup and make it work to our advantage. Currently only 100/200 plays (with a decent rating) will get you on the pages as apposed to the 10,000+ plays you needed previously.

If we were to be more aware of the tighter timeline we could easily support people getting the attention they deserve.

For example, when you show your level in the level showcase section you could post it a day or two before "launching" the level. Giving people notice that its coming out, showing a few pics etc and try get them to play it as close to the time it is first published as possible. If we as a community realised that its important to play somebodies new level as close to the publication date as possible I'm sure they would return the favour. Now its important to be clear on this part. I'm not suggesting we rate the levels any other way than what you think there worth. If someone publishes a 2 star level go right ahead and vote it that way. But having a place like this to advertise your level and gain vital plays could be the difference between a person levels being lost and it being picked up and carried on a wave to the front page.

3 - Your level will not dissapear and will continue to get attention
This I think is a big one. I previously thought that once the week is out you say bye bye to your hard work. This is not really the case however. If and when you do make it to the front page, due to the incredible amount of attention it gets you invariably get people who like the level so much that they wander onto your other published levels and in turn you receive plays from them. I am still getting quite a few plays on my older levels from people who venture onto my page. People can play get to see your older levels from many things. If you get a level in the highest rated busiest or cool pages, people also find you through other peoples hearted levels.

Over time, really good creators will get on more and more lists be it highest rated, peoples personal hearted list etc. and each time they bring out a new level it will be easier to promote it as a reputation has been built.

The more I think about this change the more it seems like it is a step in the right direction. As for the whole H4H thing, as the bulk of people who got the game for christmas finally get their ill-earned spoils It will filter out as these people will inevitably leave the game a lot quicker than the hardcore following found the many site like this, thus leaving even more opertunity for great levels to be populating the world of LBP.		2009-03-02 13:33:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

I still am not converted. The cool levels thing wrecked my heart to play ratio, and since I only got to be there for a day, I didn't 'even have a chance to recover. Now a level that was on highest rated has been thrown farther and farther into the pit.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I'm old. I'm tired, and I can't fight this fight anymore. I'm on forums ever moment of every day, trying to get someone to care about my hard work, and this new change is a crushing blow. I like my level, and I guess that should be all that matters, but there's something rather satisfying when you do something that other people can also enjoy. Also, I think that, generally speaking, people don't like wasting their time. I know I don't.

So, I dunno. Sorry if that sounds stupid, but it's just my two cents. 		2009-03-02 16:47:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

There's too much unknown rules for me to be convinced. I agree that the problem with the first page of cool levels is solved though.

I have TONS of concerns elsewhere though.

.		2009-03-02 16:49:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

I agree, Ranger. I've been running tests all weekend, and I have been getting plays, but who knows what they're from. MM has been very vague about all of this. ...

And yes, the problem with the first page is solved, so that is a good thing, but I still believe they were a bit hasty. They rushed in thinking that they'd be heroes and clear out the first page of good levels so ones with no exit and 30 rockets glued to an eyeball and piece of sponge could move on up. ... Meanwhile, there were people who really were working their way up through hard work and through hearts and plays ,and these people all got really shafted, in my opinion.

the point is, all levels AREN'T created equally, and while mm wants to give everyone a fair chance, someone who takes the time to promote their levels and spends hours upon hours polishing and making their level better than even a MM level should get more face time than a H4H level.

Sorry for saying that, but it's true ...		2009-03-02 16:55:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

the point is, all levels AREN'T created equally, and while mm wants to give everyone a fair chance, someone who takes the time to promote their levels and spends hours upon hours polishing and making their level better than even a MM level should get more face time than a H4H level.

I think so too, but can you see that people who knocks together some rubbish isn't likely to be an active member of a site like this like you or I would be. This fact leads me to believe that we are at an advantage with this.

For example, you create a level, you have done your testing and you are happy for it to be released. Before you release it however you post on this site your level will be published tonight and you would love for some people here to try it out and give it a go.

Now at the very same night "Jimmy Junior" publishes "H4H +300 prizes".

Jimmy junior is thrown in with everybody elses level and gets 30 random plays.

You also publish and get your 30 random plays but as you are quite well known around these parts people have taken notice of your thread and you have 30 extra people playing your level. This in itself gives you the upper hand at getting noticed over Jimmy Junior.

Now one thing that has remained is that getting on those pages are a self fulfilling prophecy in that the higher you go the more attention the level recieves.

So all you really need to get is 100 or so plays to make it on to the cool levels pages and watch as it rises (a lot quicker than before) to the top.		2009-03-02 17:11:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

It's a step in the right direction. The problem I have is that it relies on Rating, which is still flawed because people will put any random rating most of the time.2009-03-02 17:19:00

Author:
Gilgamesh
Posts: 2536

lol. Jimmy Junior. I think I played his level last night. It had 3 beach balls glued to sponge, and then glued to the skeleton guy from the first wedding level. And this giant mass was convulsing for some reason.

all kidding aside, you are right about that. The fact that we care and all possibly working to our advantage. It's too soon to tell though, so maybe things will look up. 		2009-03-02 17:22:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

I kinda noticed your third point..
I made a rubbish "glitch" level, to show a glitch, which seems to be getting more and more plays every time I look at it (under 20 but still) all my other levels have been rooted to the exact same plays for god knows how long now..		2009-03-02 17:57:00

Author:
Pinchanzee
Posts: 805

You know, I'm somewhere in between.... I can attest to the fact that over the weekend my levels have been getting more plays.

Splat Invaders II actually did get quite a few plays. So it has been getting exposure - even at a 3 star rating.

So, I agree with Wex that the changes they made were probably the correct one, however it still bugs me that I can't create what I consider to be a challenging and innovative level and get the RIGHT people to play it.

I get the strange feeling that because of the initial 3 star rating many are walking into it thinking it's kind of a bum level and aren't really trying. Which is a little difficult since I spent a lot of time on it... but this may be a separate issue and a separate problem to solve.		2009-03-02 19:05:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

I've got two new publications hitting in the next week hopefully, so I'll have to take careful notice.

One will hopefully be my long lost pinball level (first level ever) that I depublished because it was horribly buggy. Another will likely be tonight - an escalator tech demo based on Neergnag's design that nobody else has seemed to have any success in reverse engineering.

Obviously I expect the pinball level to grab more attention, but my tech demos usually do quite well for HPR (heart-play ratio)		2009-03-02 21:53:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

At the moment I don't like this at all. This is a disaster. I was fine with the whole "republish to get more plays" system. To me this means that ppl who care about getting more plays on their levels will and that's all I'm asking for. If I update my levels I wan't ppl to play the new versions and give me ratings and comments. I don't think you should have to promote your levels on all the LBP forums or pull of any kind of other covert operations to have a chance for a few plays on your level that takes sooo long to make. All you should need is the game.

If this change means what I think it does... that I won't get any more plays on my levels now. Well, then I'm done with LBP I'm afraid. I'm not gonna spend 2 more months on a level that gets 40 plays. If ppl can't find my levels then what is the point?

The cool levels needed to be changed so that's good atleast. 		2009-03-02 23:34:00

Author:
Green
Posts: 45

It's good for everyone... I got about 3000 plays out of it, and a few extra plays on my older levels. Leonidas got almost 60k so far... and he has us and our levels hearted, along with his own favorites. I got hearted by about 60 more people as a creator, which means those 60 people will come back to me or be able to find my levels to show others. Whoever, and whatever I've hearted will benefit from my increased traffic from my week on the page and it will eventually snowball into an untold amount of connective referrals.

I think it creates a more connected ecosystem, by shuffling it constantly.

Also... if you have a new version, and you really want it played... bite the bullet and delete the old copy, and publish the new version in a new spot. I assume it will give you insta access to the initial publish opportunity, and you won't be losing anything other than a number that really doesn't change wether people have enjoyed it or will continue to enjoy it. I am so glad the republish train is dead... I got so sick of waking up and republishing all my levels first thing in the morning lol. Gave up on it months ago, and I started realizing how ridiculous it was when I'd see people on my friends list doing the same thing. Now, it just does what it's supposed to do.

There's still some bunk to it. I published a broken version of Snowfield the other night before I went to sleep... 600 new plays gave it a bad rating. I fixed it the next day when I realized what had happened, but it will never get back to 4 or 5 stars again. If I was really concerned with that though, I'd just delete the file and republish starting from 0 plays again. Either way, I'd still have the new creator hearts I earned coming back to me, or bringing friends to play if they really like what I make.		2009-03-02 23:41:00

Author:
Unknown User

I guess I could live with the play counter reseting everytime I update my level eventhough I like seeing how many ppl have played it in total and that it shouldn't have to be reseted. The problem is that the hearts go away aswell and I haven't got the create trophy yet. And I guess I won't now since they changed the system. :/2009-03-02 23:57:00

Author:
Green
Posts: 45

It's good for everyone... I got about 3000 plays out of it, and a few extra plays on my older levels. Leonidas got almost 60k so far... and he has us and our levels hearted, along with his own favorites. I got hearted by about 60 more people as a creator, which means those 60 people will come back to me or be able to find my levels to show others. Whoever, and whatever I've hearted will benefit from my increased traffic from my week on the page and it will eventually snowball into an untold amount of connective referrals.

I think it creates a more connected ecosystem, by shuffling it constantly.

I think the contra series of a great example of this working. They pimped there levels a little around the right sites next thing you know their all over the cool pages. And yes in a week they will be off the cool pages but after thousands of plays and hopefully thousands of hearts which will lead to further plays down the line.


The fact that we care and all possibly working to our advantage. It's too soon to tell though, so maybe things will look up.

Ah xkappax !
I think your starting to soften a little 		2009-03-03 13:22:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

I posted a lot of similar points in the original thread. Glad to see some people feel the same way. 2009-03-03 14:58:00

Author:
Killian
Posts: 2575

I think the contra series of a great example of this working. They pimped there levels a little around the right sites next thing you know their all over the cool pages. And yes in a week they will be off the cool pages but after thousands of plays and hopefully thousands of hearts which will lead to further plays down the line.


You see, that's something we don't know for sure. Let's no assume and see what happens.
Maybe they will go down the pages. When you had your seven days on the top page maybe you push someone on the second. Maybe there's set number of days for each page, who knows.

No rule right simply is apparent. I republish my levels, they are EVEN ON THE TOP PAGE for a time and they plummel down. After 10 mins they aren't on the 20 first pages of cool levels all the while most levels are still the same on each page.

Also, yesterday night there was a level of top of the cool page for the whole freaking evening and that level was ZERO plays. This means there are bugs in their system because since it's supposed to be the rating that make you bump a level on the first page, it's impossible to have rating with zero plays (maybe unless the person quits freaking immediately but I doubt it).

All in all, there is change, it SEEMS to work but it's not much clear yet. And Media Molecule doesn't explain for ****.

.		2009-03-03 15:12:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

I don't know that I'm softening, but I know it can't stay like this forever. If it does, all the good creators will go away.

And of course Contra is going to get on the first page, because it's a remake of a popular video game title. (no offense to the people who made it, I actually enjoyed it quite a bit) ...

I could easily go and create the movie "The Goonies" or "The Princess Bride" in it's entirety and people would eat it up like it were some sort of delicious retro 80's pie. (yeah, i know, bad analogy... lol) ...

but what about the person who creates a level called, oh, say "The Awesome Cat Who Only Wore Pants on Tuesday"... This does not have Contra in the title, and it doesn't end in Dead Space or Killzone 2. Also, you'll notice that the word "trophy" or "H4H" is not part of the title, either. What about this person? This could be the best level ever made, better than even Geosautus, but what's going to keep this level from falling off the face of the earth?

That's the whole thing I don't understand, and I think that's what Media Molecule has to sort out. Sure that Contra level was pimped out all over the place, and even Kotaku'ed... but I don't think that Kotaku would have touched it had it not been a remake of an already popular video game. (Again, no offense to the people who made it, because it is really good)

I've tried numerous tests of this system, and it still needs tweaking by Media Molecule in order for it to work. Everything I've tested has just fallen away into the darkness.

What I'd like to see, in this perfect world that I have in my head, is media molecule rewarding people for not just remaking other video games. Jaeyden, who worked on the Contra level the Hangar, has many, many original levels, and Abyss was hearted by media molecule. I want to see more of this. ... It's either that, or I'm going to start calling my levels "The Trophy Cave in Autumn" or "Centralia - A Killzone 2 story"

sorry for that rant, everyone... I just want you all to see where I, and many other creators are coming from.

And now that I think about it... i'd totally play a level called "the Awesome Cat Who Only Wore Pants On Tuesday" ... so that was also a bad example 		2009-03-03 16:05:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

I am DYING to see what you do with "the Awesome Cat" series!!!!!!

And yes, I absolutely agree with you - but the issue with the subject matter is an issue the entire world has to deal with - not just in LBP levels. EA does the same things - year after year - that are recognizable and they sell. When they try to do something unique and different - it doesn't sell nearly as well. I'm personally not advocating that this is MM's problem. But I definately think when you end up with 100,000+ levels there needs to be further genres and classifications, and more randomness and mixing things up to create a fair environment.

But also, keep in mind - it's up to us also to share hearts and get people to play each others levels. I have all of your levels hearted.... have you played Splat II yet?		2009-03-03 16:14:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

It's either that, or I'm going to start calling my levels "The Trophy Cave in Autumn" or "Centralia - A Killzone 2 story"

I just fell out of my chair laughing from that one. But yes, I think you're dead on with this.		2009-03-03 16:21:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

I totally want to make "The Awesome Cat who only wore pants on tuesday" now. lol.

and I'll play splat II tonight. ^_^ loved the first one!		2009-03-03 16:22:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

I don't know that I'm softening, but I know it can't stay like this forever. If it does, all the good creators will go away.

And of course Contra is going to get on the first page, because it's a remake of a popular video game title. (no offense to the people who made it, I actually enjoyed it quite a bit) ...

I could easily go and create the movie "The Goonies" or "The Princess Bride" in it's entirety and people would eat it up like it were some sort of delicious retro 80's pie. (yeah, i know, bad analogy... lol) ...

but what about the person who creates a level called, oh, say "The Awesome Cat Who Only Wore Pants on Tuesday"... This does not have Contra in the title, and it doesn't end in Dead Space or Killzone 2. Also, you'll notice that the word "trophy" or "H4H" is not part of the title, either. What about this person? This could be the best level ever made, better than even Geosautus, but what's going to keep this level from falling off the face of the earth?

That's the whole thing I don't understand, and I think that's what Media Molecule has to sort out. Sure that Contra level was pimped out all over the place, and even Kotaku'ed... but I don't think that Kotaku would have touched it had it not been a remake of an already popular video game. (Again, no offense to the people who made it, because it is really good)

I've tried numerous tests of this system, and it still needs tweaking by Media Molecule in order for it to work. Everything I've tested has just fallen away into the darkness.

What I'd like to see, in this perfect world that I have in my head, is media molecule rewarding people for not just remaking other video games. Jaeyden, who worked on the Contra level the Hangar, has many, many original levels, and Abyss was hearted by media molecule. I want to see more of this. ... It's either that, or I'm going to start calling my levels "The Trophy Cave in Autumn" or "Centralia - A Killzone 2 story"

sorry for that rant, everyone... I just want you all to see where I, and many other creators are coming from.

And now that I think about it... i'd totally play a level called "the Awesome Cat Who Only Wore Pants On Tuesday" ... so that was also a bad example

All those crappy Contra "Stage 1" remakes were never stuck to cool pages and being talked about on hundreds of different websites. It's partly the Contra name, but it's also the result of a combined 1000+ hours of hard work, alot of talent, skill, teamwork, coordination, months of self-promotion, bringing an immense undertaking to fruition that fully delivers on what it promised, high quality work, and is as faithful to the source material as LBP will allow.

Before it got to Kotaku, IGN, Digg, Gamepro, and 1up etc it had to go through regular players and small forums for a couple days. They elected it, and brought it forth on their own... if the levels hadn't lived up to the hype they would have been a laughing stock and the hype train would have careened off the tracks before ever getting that far. Before Kotaku mentioned it, MM gave it accolades and that was the pivotal moment. Contra is very special among gamers, and if the gamers and these professionals didn't feel it was quality enough to live up to the name, as well a serve as an example of LBP's potential and the potential of it's creators... it'd be the anti-thesis of success.		2009-03-04 03:33:00

Author:
Unknown User

Sensitive...

Actually, I'm not sure she was commenting on the quality or size of the undertaking... simply that the Contra subject matter would certainly attract attention. (I don't think ANYONE who has played those would say they're gimmicky - just that the subject matter would certainly attract attention).

She wants to make kitty games, but if the game is good wants it to be played.

Of course, as I mentioned - I'm not quite sure ANY company has truly figured out how to make an unknown license as popular right out of the gate as a license based on an icon. EA failed several times this last year.

I'm not quite sure my Acadian game will ever be as popular as Contra either. Well, maybe if I put YOUR boss in it shouting "You Must Die, eh?"

(and.... of course.... the Contra series does kick some serious butt)		2009-03-04 04:25:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

I doubt a boss from me will help you get any plays. My help with boss design certainly hasn't helped Thegide's MGS level land on cool pages, regardless of it's unparalleled level of complexity and quality... and neither has the Metal Gear name, despite it's overwhelming visual polish, quality design, and masterful mechanics. It's never helped me either. I wish a gimmick or quality, or even both, was all it took to get on cool pages and stay there, but it's not.

With 15 publishes (and 7 deleted ones) under my belt, and only this one ever meeting with any success and acclaim, I could easily lead the crusade for fairness and equality, but the bottom line is that this system cycles levels based on a mindless mathematical sequence. It's nothing personal, and people either find your level and love it... or they don't. There's no big conspiracy or bias.		2009-03-04 05:38:00

Author:
Unknown User

I think we are getting a bit far here.

There's alot of fantastic levels that will have their chance. The Contra project is equally good as it is an exceptional level. I wouldn't take that level to validate or invalidate if the new system is fair and good.

You will not see levels with the kind of plays Contra project is having right now and I thought that was a given really. Also, why is it such a problem? I would tell you that my personal satisfaction in number of plays right now is 1000. The first level I ever made, The Banana Horde (and it's not THAT good) is having more than 1000 plays right now. My 2 players level Dig It! (way better level imo) needed some republishing and grinding but it got there too.
Sack's In The City will also go there will a little patience. I don't see why I would "quit" or that most creator would quit from such possibilities as receiving 1000 plays.

I might be a different beast too, I can't know for sure. I'm also the type of person who doesn't give to much of a crap and my levels aren't really conventional or a mass appeal. Who knows what will happen to that welldone mainstream/usual LBP level in the new system? We will know that only in a couple of weeks, letting the dust fall back down.

.		2009-03-04 05:55:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

I think we are getting a bit far here.

There's alot of fantastic levels that will have their chance. The Contra project is equally good as it is an exceptional level. I wouldn't take that level to validate or invalidate if the new system is fair and good.

You will not see levels with the kind of plays Contra project is having right now and I thought that was a given really. Also, why is it such a problem? I would tell you that my personal satisfaction in number of plays right now is 1000. The first level I ever made, The Banana Horde (and it's not THAT good) is having more than 1000 plays right now. My 2 players level Dig It! (way better level imo) needed some republishing and grinding but it got there too.
Sack's In The City will also go there will a little patience. I don't see why I would "quit" or that most creator would quit from such possibilities as receiving 1000 plays.

I might be a different beast too, I can't know for sure. I'm also the type of person who doesn't give to much of a crap and my levels aren't really conventional or a mass appeal. Who knows what will happen to that welldone mainstream/usual LBP level in the new system? We will know that only in a couple of weeks, letting the dust fall back down.

.


LOL I would be lucky to get 100 plays on any of my levels. <<

oops, back on topic		2009-03-04 06:00:00

Author:
cornontheCOD
Posts: 150

Ninja, I wasn't trying to offend with the Contra remark, believe me, I have the utmost respect for you and the whole team's gigantic undertaking. Creating an entire game's stages is no small feat, and I realize a lot of time and effort went into it. I can appreciate that.

All I was saying was that I, and many other people, (including yourself, and the other creators of the contra project) are creating original content as well that will most likely be pushed to the wayside if some sort of tag system is not implemented soon. Surely you understand that? I'm sorry if you hate me now. Please don't.

The average lbp player seems to be enthralled with playing remakes of levels from other games for some reason. It's going to make it very hard for original content to shine through. I am not a fantastic creator in any way shape or form, nor do I think i remotely belong on page 1 of cool levels, but there are people out there that do that will be pushed aside by all the nonsense that is happening, and it's really just sad.

I won't create again. Not anything serious at least. I don't want to. I don't like the hard feelings, I don't like the heartwrenching feeling that you feel when you wake up and turn on your playstation and see that no one has played your level for two or three days. That sucks. And i really don't like working for a month on a level that now gets about five plays a day, if I'm lucky.

You could argue "hey, why don't you republish it in another spot, then it will surely get played"... but I tried this as well, as a test. It got 8 plays, and that was it.

Again, I'm really sorry if I've offended anyone. I didn't mean that in the slightest.
And if you guys want to talk about sensitive... look it up in the dictionary. I'm sure my picture is there next to the definition.		2009-03-04 14:36:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

Look at the bear hugging the toy.... that's adorable.2009-03-04 15:46:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

HEY! I'm not a toy!

...

...I'm an action figure.


I won't create again. Not anything serious at least. I don't want to. I don't like the hard feelings, I don't like the heartwrenching feeling that you feel when you wake up and turn on your playstation and see that no one has played your level for two or three days. That sucks. And i really don't like working for a month on a level that now gets about five plays a day, if I'm lucky.

Neither do I... and that's why I was saying, I was glad the republish thing doesn't work anymore. I started giving up on it when I finished the Contra level... I waited about a month til everyone was done so we could publish, and in that time, I just gave up. It released and I got lucky... but I'm still glad that I'm not compelled to spend the majority of my day trying to find a sweet spot for republishing (ie: most people on) lol it's really not healthy.

Like I said to you, I think if levels like Ramp had never achieved impossible standards, and the system was always operating as it is now - or better - that we wouldn't have had this golden ideal to reach, and none of us would be so wrapped up in it.		2009-03-04 17:16:00

Author:
Unknown User

I doubt a boss from me will help you get any plays. My help with boss design certainly hasn't helped Thegide's MGS level land on cool pages, regardless of it's unparalleled level of complexity and quality... and neither has the Metal Gear name, despite it's overwhelming visual polish, quality design, and masterful mechanics. It's never helped me either. I wish a gimmick or quality, or even both, was all it took to get on cool pages and stay there, but it's not.

Nope, from what I can tell, there's nothing but pure luck or an avalanche of advertising that can help you get and stay on the cool pages.

I've republished Shadow Moses as a new level 5 times now (while keeping the old one published as well). Each and every time, I get about 30-40 plays and then it's gone. I'm still getting a higher play rate on the original publish, which was first published locked over a month ago before all this mess happened and is currently chugging along, slowly earning hearts at a phenomenal 1:4 ratio.

The Shadow Moses name was not enough to grant it popularity. I've recently renamed it "[Metal Gear Solid] Shadow Moses: Site B" which has not done anything to grant it any more popularity either.

What really hurts right now is that there is a level called "Metal Gear Solid - Shadow Moses" that is a piece of dog turd with 25,000 plays stuck near the front of cool levels. Worse, several aspects of my own level are poorly done in this, including the electrified hallway, security cam, and a metal gear boss at the end. I imagine that it was released within the last week or two, coincident with my own release, yet it was picked up by the momentum and now resides in the limelight.

This is a very clear case where innovation, complexity, polish, and story are lost on a ratings system that serves only to promote the lucky. My republishes I've found on page 5 within 5 minutes, which is about the time it takes for me to upload some in-game pics, and hop on my 2 alternate PSN accounts to heart and rate the level. Unless you can get 30 people playing your level instantly, I don't see how it matters any more WHAT you publish.		2009-03-04 17:34:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

I'm tellin' ya. My next level is gonna be "Cool Chocobo Final Fantasy 7 Moogle Trophy H4H FREE ITEMS Gears of War Killzone 2 costumes" ... that will cover each and every base , I think. 2009-03-04 17:41:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

I'm tellin' ya. My next level is gonna be "Cool Chocobo Final Fantasy 7 Moogle Trophy H4H FREE ITEMS Gears of War Killzone 2 costumes" ... that will cover each and every base , I think.

You forgot to put "Ramp" or "Rocket Skateboard" somewhere in there. >.>		2009-03-04 17:47:00

Author:
Gilgamesh
Posts: 2536

oh sorry. also, i had better put a picture of a hot girl as the patch, that might get me some plays, too. 2009-03-04 17:53:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

Ok guys I'm here with some results from my experiments with the new system.

I decided to try it with a 'new' level and, obviously, choosed MFA; I got 2000 plays with republication so I thought to myself I'm done with that no matter the new results.

I started Sunday afternoon, renaming the levels ''Legend of a Hero - Miglioshin's Fantasy Adventure (ch.1/2) EX'' (EX means experiment); in which I implemented the latest suggestions I received from requested reviews and latest comments.

For the first 2/3 days I checked quite often how the levels was doing, appearing randomly in the cool pages (1 to 12), catching some plays (like 20 or so) and fadeing to the abyss in quite an hour.

Since they was 'new', at least in a new slot, I also tried the edit-sticker-save-publish tango and catched a fistful of plays; then republished like 1 time per hour with the same steps (since I was playing some other cool levels and working on my latest, following the advice of my girl --> ''do not leave things half made, at least complete what you have started, then you can give up if you feel to...'&apos until I reached about 150 plays.

Then yesterday evening I gave up leaving my levels on page 21 and watched some TV, today after work I didn't came home until 8:00 pm; I said to myself ''let's check how my levels are doing and maybe I'll republish them just once...''.
What did I found out?

During my ''absence'' I got like 500 plays less or more.

500 plays without doing anything, ANYTHING.

Now ch.1 EX is sitcked on page 4 and continuosly get plays 4/7 at a time; I got like 100 plays in an hour.

Luck?

Or maybe we were hasty in judging Mm changes?

Who can tell...

And theese where my results.
I don't understand the 7 days thing very well; it means 7 days in the first page or 7 days since first publication?

EDIT:
Did Mm watched THE RING? (ring... rrring... ''hello?'' (whispers)''You have 7 days... -click-'' lol)		2009-03-05 22:10:00

Author:
Miglioshin
Posts: 336

lol. I said the same thing to my husband about the 7 days thing. I said I felt like I was in the Ring. 2009-03-06 00:19:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

Contra should be dropping off the pages tomorrow, and I will never have another level on Cool Pages again 2009-03-06 01:08:00

Author:
Unknown User

I'm going to suggest that it was luck, Migloshin, because I did the same thing as you, and haven't had any luck in getting more than 40 plays on a republish. Usually leaving it overnight got me zero plays.

I havent tried with the sticker edit-republish, but maybe that will be my next trial.		2009-03-06 01:20:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

Contra should be dropping off the pages tomorrow, and I will never have another level on Cool Pages again

Continue to watch. We actually might discover that we are bumped in the following page and then the following, and so on.
I wouldn't be surprised that we have a number of days pinned on each page, such number that would diminish slowly according to what page you're on.

Seriously, I'm observing the game closely since last week and will continue so. We might discover some rules. (and since MM will never explain them, it's a good thing...)

.		2009-03-06 02:34:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

So far it has not worked for my new level Pulse. I appreared on pages 4 and 6 on different days for about 2 minutes then my lvl disappeared off the face of the earth. I will continue to make changes and republish but I am not holding my breath.

I think the people who get lucky will welcome the change while everyone else will remain frustrated...		2009-03-06 02:38:00

Author:
OCK
Posts: 1536

So far it has not worked for my new level Pulse. I appreared on pages 4 and 6 on different days for about 2 minutes then my lvl disappeared off the face of the earth. I will continue to make changes and republish but I am not holding my breath.

I think the people who get lucky will welcome the change while everyone else will remain frustrated...

I don't know how you can say this OCK?

Last time I checked you have made it on to the permanent (I use the term loosely ) spot on on the cool pages. You are on page 14 or 16 I cant remember and from now until 7 days past the first time you published, any extra plays, hearts or high ratings will push you further. this is also helped with the older levels being taken off and bringing you closer to the top and bringing you more plays.

Its a pretty simple system they use to determine it and once you understand it it doesn't seem as mysterious as to how people get on there.

Imagine every level published has a "score", every time that level is played it gets a "point", every time a level is rated it gets points depending on what rating it gets, obviously a 5 star rating gets a lot more points than a one star rating. Also, every time the level is hearted it gets points. Now the cool level pages simply ranks the levels with the most points. This system also allows higher rated levels to "overtake" levels that were published earlier but of a lower rating as for example a 5 star level only needs about 1000 plays to get into the top pages where as a 3 star level would need several times that amount of plays.

Theoretically the system is sound. Its not the sytem thats wrong its the people playing it! You can't stop the majority of people prefering to play a H4H level over yours. If thats what they want well thats what they will do.		2009-03-06 09:39:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

Contra should be dropping off the pages tomorrow, and I will never have another level on Cool Pages again

I hope they don't - they're easy to find where they are!		2009-03-06 11:24:00

Author:
Boogaloo
Posts: 254

I don't know how you can say this OCK?

Last time I checked you have made it on to the permanent (I use the term loosely ) spot on on the cool pages. You are on page 14 or 16 I cant remember and from now until 7 days past the first time you published, any extra plays, hearts or high ratings will push you further. this is also helped with the older levels being taken off and bringing you closer to the top and bringing you more plays.

Its a pretty simple system they use to determine it and once you understand it it doesn't seem as mysterious as to how people get on there.

Imagine every level published has a "score", every time that level is played it gets a "point", every time a level is rated it gets points depending on what rating it gets, obviously a 5 star rating gets a lot more points than a one star rating. Also, every time the level is hearted it gets points. Now the cool level pages simply ranks the levels with the most points. This system also allows higher rated levels to "overtake" levels that were published earlier but of a lower rating as for example a 5 star level only needs about 1000 plays to get into the top pages where as a 3 star level would need several times that amount of plays.

Theoretically the system is sound. Its not the sytem thats wrong its the people playing it! You can't stop the majority of people prefering to play a H4H level over yours. If thats what they want well thats what they will do.
However, Wex - you also have to look at the TYPE of game.

I don't personally have a problem with the way Cool Pages works right now, but different difficulties and themes are still punished.

I've played all of your games, NinjaMicWZ's games, OCK's games, and of course my own (I could put a lot more in this list... but I'm going to keep it simple). I find NO quality differences between them at all, however we each have different skill level/genre preferences between them.

Many of your levels work well for young people. I TOTALLY enjoyed your Matrix and Wizard of Odd levels - but let's face it. I waltzed right through them.

I also watered down Splat Invaders Saga until people could waltz right through it.

But there are many of us that want to design challenging games. But right now if we design the game that we and hundreds of thousands of like-minded people enjoy playing the rating system punishes us and buries it. People can just go in, not put ANY effort in, lower ratings, and bury a incredibly well-designed game to the back of cool pages that practically no one will find.

You are having a lot of success with republishing into cool pages because of the nature of your specific games. (and I love them, don't get me wrong....)

I think the changes to the cool pages help part of the problem, but actually getting visibility there depends on them fixing the rating system to a point where different difficulties and genres can shine without inappropriately being banished.

Now, I know I will get a lot of arguments such as "but people WANT to play certain games and not others" - but I'm not talking about play count here. I'm talking about the APPROPRIATE people playing your game. If I design a 5-star difficult puzzle game - maybe it won't be as popular as an easy Little Dead Space game - and I don't care - but it SHOULD NOT be rated 1 star by 8 year olds and buried forever from people who would truly enjoy a difficult puzzle game but skip by it because it's 1 star AND buried into the back of cool pages.

I want people who highly rate trophy levels to stay as far away from my level as possible. I don't think they should have the right to rate it. They are either too young or too unskilled to play a real game.		2009-03-06 14:26:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

I agree 100% with you on that we should have difficulty ratings, and categories added. And I think it would help an awful lot in getting the right people playing the right levels for them. This would improve things imensely and you will find no argument with me over that

My only point is that even though without this in place. OCKs level appears to working its way up the ladder and I'd be pretty sure you will see it in the top few pages by the weekend. And with the help of a few mates from here he could be put on page one

I think I have said this to xkappax before but the same holds true to yourself or any other creator whos quite well know around these forums. If you were to publish splat invaders and let all the folks around here know about it (in advance to give you the best possible chance) and ask them to "get playing". I'm sure you would find you would easily knock up the 150/200 or so plays it takes to get on the cool pages. From there the level carries itself to the front page as long as it is well received. Now I know this is where your point is validated in that from this point you need the right people playing for a level to be fairly rated but this was an issue before the change and it hasn't changed after so its not a result of the change but rather an ongoing issue that needs to be addressed.

So, with that in mind I think if we were to work together as a community of creators, we would stand a much better chance at getting a lot of plays on our levels than before.

As I've said, its not perfect yet, but it is better.

EDIT: Actually my biggest gripe with the new system is that you only have a week to get to the top. I think if this was extended to a 2/4 weeks you would still have the same effect of having levels dissapear every day and new ones coming through only the creator would have more time to promote the level and build a little buzz about it.		2009-03-06 15:00:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

Yeah, I suppose we're really talking apples and oranges. You're talking number of plays, I'm talking quality of plays. I personally don't care whether the 5000 people play my level, but that the 500 RIGHT people play my level so I get an honest rating (whatever that may be). Some creators are more interested in the ticker tape count (nothing wrong with that).

But then again, a lot of the RIGHT people playing your game would translate into a lot more quality plays, and less republishing - both problems solved.

So far of the people who have taken the time to finish Splat Invaders II, I get a lot of great feedback - so I know it's appropriate for a lot of people. In order to get high ratings I would have to take out my entire pod section, which would really hurt. I think it's the best thing I've designed.		2009-03-06 15:10:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

I would have to take out my entire pod section, which would really hurt. I think it's the best thing I've designed.

The pod at the beginning? It was one of the reasons I picked out for the 5 star rating I gave it! Not only is it not that difficult, if you do wreck it a brand new one appears.

*sigh*

Some people really want their hands held during a game. Why don't they play "Barbie Horse Adventures: Mystery Ride" instead and leave the rest of us to get on with it.

Rant over, lol.		2009-03-06 15:24:00

Author:
Boogaloo
Posts: 254

Nope... it isn't difficult - it just takes a few times to practice. If you look at the feedback I've received, the vast amount of people even on this thread blew up a few times until they got the hang of it. These are the kinds of things that cause the casual non-gamer types to say "I've had it! How dare he give me a challenge where I can blow up! I'm quiting and 1 staring this stupid level".

Of course, if they paid attention a TINY bit they would realize that I have a double life check point - AND if they blow up they get points!!!! Want to get a high score in the game? Crash the pod a bunch of times before finishing the descension.

And by the way - I KNEW I would get low ratings for this game. I am absolutely taking responsibility for putting something in my level I absolutely knew would 'kill' it - but on the other hand, I wrote this particular level for me. This part of the game was designed based on one of my favorite games of all times - Caverns of Mars from Atari. I duplicated the feel of this game almost perfectly. And darned if I was going to let lousy players prevent me from making it!		2009-03-06 15:29:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

I hadn't actually noticed the points for crashing bit - it's a nice way of upping the risk for reward.

I didn't have any difficulty with it. I did crash a few times, but always as a result of my own dodgy steering. The pod moves silky smooth.

I'll have to go back and try to crack the scoreboard now I know about the extra points.		2009-03-06 15:39:00

Author:
Boogaloo
Posts: 254

Its a pretty simple system they use to determine it and once you understand it it doesn't seem as mysterious as to how people get on there.

Imagine every level published has a "score", every time that level is played it gets a "point", every time a level is rated it gets points depending on what rating it gets, obviously a 5 star rating gets a lot more points than a one star rating. Also, every time the level is hearted it gets points. Now the cool level pages simply ranks the levels with the most points. This system also allows higher rated levels to "overtake" levels that were published earlier but of a lower rating as for example a 5 star level only needs about 1000 plays to get into the top pages where as a 3 star level would need several times that amount of plays.

Theoretically the system is sound. Its not the sytem thats wrong its the people playing it! You can't stop the majority of people prefering to play a H4H level over yours. If thats what they want well thats what they will do.


Explain to me how the hell did you make this conclusion? This sounds like a paragraph coming right out of your butt.

The only info we have from MediaMolecule is:

1-A level will not stay on the first cool page for more than 7 days
2-It will get bumped by NEW levels with the highest rating in the last 7 days.
3-A level republished on the same slot doesn't count as "new".

So where does it factor in the plays and hearts? We don't have proof.
We don't even know the rules starting page 2 of the cool levels. Are we pinned there or we fall down? If pinned, how many days do we stay there? If we fall down, why?

It doesn't explain also why republishing DOES put your level back on the top cool page but it falls from there within like 10 mins (just like before!).

.		2009-03-06 16:04:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

Explain to me how the hell did you make this conclusion? This sounds like a paragraph coming right out of your butt.

First off, I don't really appreciate being spoken to like that. I'm pretty certain I have never spoken to you in that way.

But to answer your question. I'm not claiming to have the formula that MM use to decide what makes it onto the pages. But what I am saying is that there is a formula. It is not randomly selected levels. I have tested this several times over and the results are alwways the same. This conclusion is purely a result my experience of my own levels, studying the way other levels are ranked and a number of experiments I have done.

If you look at the pages you will see two types of levels. the ones that are permanent, and the ones that are not. The ones that are not are indicated by the little glow around them (It can be hard to see depending on what colour scheme you use as the colour of the glow is the same colour as the background of your popit.

Once a level is published first it gets thrown in with the "new" and the "community" pages and will work its way down as a newer level is published.

ah feic this I'm not arsed.... It's friday evening and I'm not going to get dragged into this.		2009-03-06 16:33:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

ah feic this I'm not arsed.... It's friday evening and I'm not going to get dragged into this.

Lol to that. I'm counting down to beer time.		2009-03-06 16:38:00

Author:
Boogaloo
Posts: 254

Lol to that. I'm counting down to beer time.

I hear that! 		2009-03-06 16:39:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

Wex, your system seems very logical, indeed.

I think Ranger's point was that we have no idea if this is exactly how this works or not, since the official workings have never been announced by the dev team.

However, I tend to think your ranking theory at least closely describes the behavior of the front page, regardless of it's mathematical accuracy. In science, this is how things work... we develop formulae to describe and predict the world around us. Whether or not the system operates according to that specific formula is irrelevant, as long as its accurate.		2009-03-06 16:49:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

First off, I don't really appreciate being spoken to like that. I'm pretty certain I have never spoken to you in that way.

But to answer your question. I'm not claiming to have the formula that MM use to decide what makes it onto the pages. But what I am saying is that there is a formula. It is not randomly selected levels. I have tested this several times over and the results are alwways the same. This conclusion is purely a result my experience of my own levels, studying the way other levels are ranked and a number of experiments I have done.

If you look at the pages you will see two types of levels. the ones that are permanent, and the ones that are not. The ones that are not are indicated by the little glow around them (It can be hard to see depending on what colour scheme you use as the colour of the glow is the same colour as the background of your popit.

Once a level is published first it gets thrown in with the "new" and the "community" pages and will work its way down as a newer level is published.

ah feic this I'm not arsed.... It's friday evening and I'm not going to get dragged into this.


Ok first let me apologise to you if that came out rude. I clearly build up frustrations toward this game since it's release with it plethora of problems and I might get sensitive because ironically I love the game so much...

And of course it's not a random that put the level there buddy. Of course I wasn't implying such thing.

.		2009-03-06 16:50:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

I know wex is right. With the Contra levels... Leonidas' level was the first one published, and the one everyone played first and it got cemented onto the front page with 4 stars and eventually reached almost 90,000 plays. The rest of us got up through the pages within a few days. On day 2 I think most of us were on pages 3 to 6. Eventually, all of us ended up on page 2 and my level would rotate between page 2 and 3 for most of the week, while Base 2 would stay on page 3. People were playing Base 2 out of sequential accord, but were playing Base 1 as the choice level for Libidus-style fun if they were going to play either... they just picked that 1.

Eventually stage 2, 3, 4, and 7 got onto page 1 in a couple days ago.

I accidentally republished my level before going to bed on day 2, with a glitched version. It was overheating in midplay, and if you were killed by the first soldier before destroying him and activated the bombs - it would overheat, you would respawn and immediately fall through the floor. I of course didn't know, because I never failed to kill the guy how it was intended in my testings before publishing an update. That night I got around 600 plays that probably rated me 1 star. 1200 4 star ratings, were bombared with 600 1 star ratings (presumably), and locked me into 3 stars. So on the final day that my level was up, with 5000+ plays I FINALLY got onto page 1 with the rest of the gang.

I was on there last because I had a 3 star rating (and got cursed with the default 3 star selection even after fixing the problem in the morning)... so my playcount multiplied by my rating gave me a lower statistical value... most of my 7 days was spent making up for my error, and I only got to spend 1 day on page 1 to get a substantial final jump in plays.

Waterfall is still there for a few more hours, Base 1 is still there, and 2 is still on page 2. gevurah's level was published only 3 days ago and is somewhere around page 3 or 4. Hopefully that lingering presence leads to continued support of the series.

I honestly think Leonidas' level would have been the next Ramp without the 7 day cycle... and our levels would have been cemented there for a good month or so.

Honestly... I think the system is great right now, and CCubd's idea of not allowing ratings from people who didn't complete the level would be the next logical step to totally ensure some fairness. The level's are cycling, one of my friends was on page 3 today now that the Contra levels cycled through... and I'm hoping OCK and Thegide get up to the first few pages sometime soon... I also hope wex's Pinball levels get to page 1 before 7 days is up. He's 100% right that we, together have the power to help each other. If we just go into a friends level and play, exit, play, exit for 30 minutes it will give it a bump in play count and activity - but someone WILL rate it 1 stars no matter what you do after that.

I think with the ratings, how it calculates decimal values is skewed to average down rather than up in the traditional sense. If your level is rated 5 stars 6,000 times, and a single person rates it 4 stars or less it will become 4.99~. Rather than rounding up at the .5 mark, as per mathematical tradition, I think it rounds down to 4 stars in it's display.

I'm basing this on one of my tests... I publish a level, switch to an alt PSN, and rate myself 5 stars. Switch to another PSN, and rate it 5 stars. Switch back to NinjaMicWZ and see that it has two plays and 5 stars. Then I play through to the scoreboard to update the info and refresh, and see that it has 3 plays, and is now 4 stars. Someone rated it less than 5... albeit, they could have rated it 1 star, which WOULD drop it to 4, but if they rated it 4, then it shouldn't be less than 4.5 and should round up to 5, rather than rounding down to 4. There's always some luck involved in having 5 stars... even though the default rating selection should lead to most people hitting the X button and giving you the same 5 stars you cheated to give yourself (LOL), someone will always be determined to go "no... this level is NOT 5 stars" and forever lower your statistical value. Sometimes, you would rather players be the happy go lucky crowd that doesn't think about the rating, rather than the supremely critical and sometimes resentful fellow LBP enthusiast.		2009-03-06 19:36:00

Author:
Unknown User

Well apparently I am on Page 7 (have not check myself but I recieved a PSN msg from Jaeyden) but yesterday my level also fell to 3 stars...I just don't get it lol. Now, even if my level somehow makes the first page I still will not be a believer in this system. Why? Because 80% of the stuff on the first 5 pages is still complete and utter garbage and it makes me angry that so many talened creators, particularly from these forums, are not getting the exposure and recognition that they deserve.

So yeah, even if I finally get 10K plays or something like and my level proves a "success" that then I still believe MM has A LOT of changes to make. The only good thing about this system is that every 7 days we get the opportunity to discover something new but when levels like "139 prizes" and "how to anti-color" are on the first page then there are clearly still a lot of problems.		2009-03-06 23:40:00

Author:
OCK
Posts: 1536

I'm looking at the pages right now and I'll call out what I see.
Page 1 - Up until a few mins ago, Pitcard's "Animal Zoo"
Page 2 - Donkey Show's contra stage 8
Page 3 Turnipeater's Helicopter Game, My two pinball levels, Migloshins Legend of a hero
Page 4: Migloshins Legend of a hero 2, Killians Problomatic Packaging
Page 5: Deboerdaves Sidescroll Classic Demo, Jaeydens "The Jade Fortress
Page 6: OCKs "Pulse"

I think its a massive improvement from where we were just over a week ago. Yes there are still some serious flaws but never before has so many people from this site been up on the pages at the one time.		2009-03-07 00:06:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

Quite an amazing turnaround, IMO. Before, I don't think any of us would have a hope of being on there.

btw, I've somehow earned a griefer who's 1 starring, tagging me rubbish, and leaving foul comments on any new level I publish. I tried to give Metal Slug Solid a fresh start, and within' 5 mins the person hops onto the level and kills it.		2009-03-07 00:26:00

Author:
Unknown User

I'm looking at the pages right now and I'll call out what I see.
Page 1 - Up until a few mins ago, Pitcard's "Animal Zoo"
Page 2 - Donkey Show's contra stage 8
Page 3 Turnipeater's Helicopter Game, My two pinball levels, Migloshins Legend of a hero
Page 4: Migloshins Legend of a hero 2, Killians Problomatic Packaging
Page 5: Deboerdaves Sidescroll Classic Demo, Jaeydens "The Jade Fortress
Page 6: OCKs "Pulse"

I think its a massive improvement from where we were just over a week ago. Yes there are still some serious flaws but never before has so many people from this site been up on the pages at the one time.


I agree and I am happy members from our forums are getting some great exposure but still, there is a lot of work to be done lol. I think one of the biggest issues is the rating system and I agree that you should not be allowed to rate until you finish a level. However, this poses it's own set of problems. What if the level has a bug making it impossible to finish? MM has a lot to think about.		2009-03-07 00:26:00

Author:
OCK
Posts: 1536

Well... that could be a good benefit too. Like what happened with my Contra level, when I published the broken version. I wouldn't have gotten 600 bad ratings overnight since the level would have been impassable...

...but at the same time, I'd be getting an increase in playcount. I'd probably get some terrible tags, and brazen comments informing me of the problem though lol - perhaps an extra layer of depth should be added to the equation. No tags, no increase in playcounts for restarts and incomplete playthroughts - which would lower the playcount... hmm come to think of it, that would give short levels, easy levels, and mini-games an unfair advantage.

I don't think there's a good solution honestly, but I'm sure it will continue to improve. Trying to be objectively fair, and using a mathematical value to determine exposure is about the best than can be expected and no matter how flawless their calculations and how unbiased their stamp of approval is... there's just no accounting for human nature and personal preference.		2009-03-07 00:43:00

Author:
Unknown User

Quite an amazing turnaround, IMO. Before, I don't think any of us would have a hope of being on there.

btw, I've somehow earned a griefer who's 1 starring, tagging me rubbish, and leaving foul comments on any new level I publish. I tried to give Metal Slug Solid a fresh start, and within' 5 mins the person hops onto the level and kills it.

Report this guy to MM man, these are the people that really screw with the game. I think I may have someone similar and I have to ask: how could we both have some punk running around 1 staring our levels as they are published? I think you know what I am getting at...		2009-03-07 00:55:00

Author:
OCK
Posts: 1536

Funny, I just posted the same thing happening to me this morning. I haven't gotten many nasty comments, but I find it hard to imagine that it's one person doing this.

I think there are just a lot of griefers out there who get off on crapping all over people's good hard work.		2009-03-07 01:16:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

Probably. Someone posted in the GAF forums Contra thread or something "Hey guys. Just wanted to let you know I griefed the crap out of all these levels just now!" - not an exact quote, but whatever.

It's just human nature, and some people get off on stuff like that.		2009-03-07 01:21:00

Author:
Unknown User

OK there seems to be a worrying trend here as this happened to me several times yesterday. As soon as I'd publish it was hit with a 1 star and boring. It must be people trying to take out the competition against their own level. Thats stooping pretty low!2009-03-07 01:33:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

OK there seems to be a worrying trend here as this happened to me several times yesterday. As soon as I'd publish it was hit with a 1 star and boring. It must be people trying to take out the competition against their own level. Thats stooping pretty low!

Exactly and this is a MAJOR problem. Even if someone likes your level they might be inclined to give it a low rating so that it cannot compete with their levels!!! MM, are you reading this!? BIG BIG BIG problem.		2009-03-07 01:35:00

Author:
OCK
Posts: 1536

Let's see. I published a four month old level, rebuilt a few parts of the level over a day or two and now it's sitting in the cool pages. You can easily get in the cool pages now. You just have to go get it. The trade off though is that you have to get through the "kids". LOT's of little kids. Why do you guys think costume, sticker, R1 levels get so many hits? Leonidas and I had lengthy discussions about the people playing the cool pages...and quite honestly we figured it's usually not the target audience of most of us authors. I guess it makes sense and may be the decision you guys should make when it comes to republishing.

I republished my old level "The Jade Fortress" as an experiment to determine whether I want to republish any of my other stuff. I started on day one by publishing the exact version I have had for 4 months. I got about 25 plays on the first pass and about 8 hearts. I then started changing things. I changed the look, I added new gameplay elements, I tweaked some old stuff, added keys etc. all the while republishing after every hour or two of editing. When I had hit close to 300 plays I stuck to the cool pages. Wex is right. There is a formula, it has to do with your star rating, hearts and plays vs. the rest of the levels currently sticking to the cool pages. My Contra level stuck at around 200 plays with 50 hearts/4 star...Jade fortress was 300 plays 25 hearts/4 star.

I guarantee that if you want it you can get your level on the cool pages. Right OCK? Just be prepared for who is playing your level. Currently my original "Jade Fortress" has 1400 plays with 350 hearts..The cool levels one has 1400 plays with 100 hearts but I also have 3 days left on the cool pages.		2009-03-07 18:53:00

Author:
Jaeyden
Posts: 564

Simply put: It's a crap shoot. MM has put WAY too much power in the hands of people who are not mature enough to handle it.

Decided to give Splat II another shot - republished it this morning. Within minutes - 29 plays, 1 star. Tags? Rubbish and Daft.

Last week republished the original Splat Invaders. Result? 3 plays, 1 star, rubbish.

I may do what I did with Jacques the Acadian Warlord with any levels - publish when all the kids are in school and wait until people like OCK and RangerZero find it.

The truth is, I understand this is a game and I don't really take it too seriously. However, there are probably many of the best authors out there that got demoralized and left before we got to know them. The only reason I stay in these arguments is not so I can get more plays and better ratings on my levels - it's because I see so much potential in LBP and I'm afraid as a LOT more people are playing it this will become a bigger and bigger problem. Let's face it, kids have a LOT more time to sit and play for hours and don't spend much time creating. So over time you will see this trend get worse and worse.		2009-03-07 21:04:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

Well I made a suggestion in the Ideas forum that we should set aside two days a week to "Launch" our levels. That way our community can come together to help each other in the first critical hours or day of publication..also with a good start from our collective efforts we won't have to throw away plays and hearts by republishing because of some random 1 star/rubbish tagger. Thur/Fri is perfect. You can announce your launch on Monday of the week and build some hype and let everyone know it's coming. Then Thursday and Friday we all focus on playing the communities newest levels. It should give everyone the boost needed to stick and get a ton of plays over the weekend. Food for thought.2009-03-07 21:30:00

Author:
Jaeyden
Posts: 564

Well I made a suggestion in the Ideas forum that we should set aside two days a week to "Launch" our levels. That way our community can come together to help each other in the first critical hours or day of publication.

RangerZero said a similar thing - maybe give each other keys so that some one looking for a ramp or 2,000,000,000 scorebubbles in a row doesn't play it by accident.

I really like this idea - I would certainly take part in it.		2009-03-07 21:34:00

Author:
Boogaloo
Posts: 254

Will PM you Jeayden. We will set this movement in motion.

I have a couple of ideas but we'll work in PM. This will be the secret that LittleBigCentral guys know of but don't talk about. And it's going to HIT.

BEWARE YOU COOL PAGES, WE'RE GOING TO BE IN YOU.


.		2009-03-07 22:56:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

A thought occurred to me. If your level is taken down for moderation review, I would assume that this time is taken out of your 7 day exposure period. This means that it would be possible to lose a lot of exposure due to serial griefers in the current system.2009-03-18 16:36:00

Author:
Gilgamesh
Posts: 2536

Well I'm still not convinced the changes were a good thing, and lots of aspects still worry me about the Cool Levels system / copying / unwarranted grief / un-named dodgy pic uploads, but I have learnt how levels can still find plays and how to adapt as a creator.

For continued plays, many players do now seem to look in the 'Highest Rated' section, and this does in turn lead to knock-on plays across your other levels. Phew! Levels do indeed survive to play another day.

As for new levels, I've found that time of day / day of week for initial publication is crucial. In UK, 5pm-ish Tuesdays - this enables your 'Cool Levels week-peak to be at the weekend. Advance notification in the comments section of your already-popular levels also lets regulars play your new level early. These kind people are so important and can help prevent the initial '1-star syndrome' others have mentione ( Also, republishing in the first week can have a 'Newest' effect, but seems very inconsistent - ?)

For further system testing I'm planning an 'advertisement' level, to see what Cool Levels effects this can have for plays across a level series. We'll see...		2009-03-18 17:47:00

Author:
nordwest
Posts: 11

Well I'm still not convinced the changes were a good thing, and lots of aspects still worry me about the Cool Levels system / copying / unwarranted grief / un-named dodgy pic uploads, but I have learnt how levels can still find plays and how to adapt as a creator.

For continued plays, many players do now seem to look in the 'Highest Rated' section, and this does in turn lead to knock-on plays across your other levels. Phew! Levels do indeed survive to play another day.

As for new levels, I've found that time of day / day of week for initial publication is crucial. In UK, 5pm-ish Tuesdays - this enables your 'Cool Levels week-peak to be at the weekend. Advance notification in the comments section of your already-popular levels also lets regulars play your new level early. These kind people are so important and can help prevent the initial '1-star syndrome' others have mentione ( Also, republishing in the first week can have a 'Newest' effect, but seems very inconsistent - ?)

For further system testing I'm planning an 'advertisement' level, to see what Cool Levels effects this can have for plays across a level series. We'll see...
I've been looking for this kind of input in my "Good Publishing Practices" thread if you want to add to it. I'm trying to collect different input on day/time zone posting for best results.		2009-03-18 18:36:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

I just have to throw in a quick thing here - I mean, Mm will NEVER appease everyone. Somebody will inevitably always be left out in the cold.

In the case of the latest "cool levels" refresh, it seems to be those levels that were already made and used to have legs. No more! The Movies hit a stride at one point and was receiving plays on a regular basis without my pimping it out. After the refresh of Cool Levels, the plays stopped - they completely stopped. Over the course of weeks, I only received a few plays. The play count of the level just ground to a screeching halt.

Yesterday I edited and republished it, and noticed it somewhere on page 5 of New Levels, with one person playing it... I haven't checked in on it today, but I don't expect to see a whole lot of action. And I also don't think you should have to resort to republishing a level for no reason other than getting it circulating on New Levels.

Ultimately we can't keep people from exploiting ANY system that Mm puts into place. If there was a browsing function, where publishers could tag their level with certain content categories, you could expect players to figure out the most popular tags, and use those on their levels regardless of whether they were appropriate or not.

That's the problem with this sort of community. it's full of Tracy Flicks. It's full of people who put work into something and are willing to climb walls to get it out there - to exploit, to stretch, to squeeze the system to fit their needs. If enough people do this to any system, it's bound to go off-kilter at some point. And meanwhile Mm has to attempt to please as many people as they can with every tweak and refresh of the system. Inevitably leaving some new group they didn't notice before in the dust.		2009-03-20 00:02:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

You're absolutely right, but it's certainly possible to have a system in place which minimizes the issue. I wrote a post about 3 months ago in the "Creator Crisis" thread which talks about it.

Truth is, yes if there was proper categories the creators would publish in the most popular categories - however if it was not appropriate for the category it would get demolished in the ratings from the players there. And not counting ratings unless someone finished the level would make it impossible to kill a level without experiencing it.

I think a LOT more thought needs to go into this. I would even be satisfied with them leaving the cool pages alone and just adding genres and difficulty to a new part of the system where people like me and you could browse instead of going to cool pages.		2009-03-20 22:45:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

How much thought and effort do you think they are willing to put into a game that is dominated by kids (seemingly)?

Ever wonder why 90% of the DLC is still costume packs?

I'm only annoyed because its the 10% of mature players making 99% of the best user-end content, but things are dumbed down and kept simple so that they can continue to cater to all audiences. I seriously don't think they are too concerned with how we perceive our heart-play ratios or tags.		2009-03-21 05:41:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

How much thought and effort do you think they are willing to put into a game that is dominated by kids (seemingly)?

Ever wonder why 90% of the DLC is still costume packs?

I'm only annoyed because its the 10% of mature players making 99% of the best user-end content, but things are dumbed down and kept simple so that they can continue to cater to all audiences. I seriously don't think they are too concerned with how we perceive our heart-play ratios or tags.

But isn't it like this with everything? I don't see what's wrong. Probably 10% of Youtuber are making 99% of the goosd stuff. What's up with music? There must like maybe 10% of what's in the music store that truly worth listening. I mean, we are in creative community, this means you start by expecting to dig through alot of crap to find the good stuff.

.		2009-03-21 06:53:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901


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