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[UPDATED] How much control complexity is too much? Need discussion!

Archive: 17 posts

Hey everyone. I'm planning a LBP3 topdown fantasy "game". I've learned from past mistakes a couple things:
Abilities with hidden cooldowns aren't very fun. Proper display is everything. Tune for 1-2 players, 3-4 is unreasonable to expect random passer-by players to experience and characters need to be simple enough to pick up and play.

NEW (UPDATED: 9/17/14)
Since the start of this conversation, I've done a lot of re-thinking. I've decided I wanted a more streamlined resource, but not to do away with resources entirely because I feel like it adds "good" depth, and it's certainly a better mechanic than "cooldowns". That said, here's what I'm currently looking at for classes. I left out specific damage tuning numbers this time because I feel that it's not necessary this early in the development. I also narrowed the classes down from 6 to 4 and they now have a more specific tie into lore, and overall will make much more sense.

The classes are now called Titans, which are blessed guardians that wield power of the various levels of our surroundings (earth, water, air and space). Each uses a resource system that is now streamlined called Mana.

Mana: All classes will have Mana. Mana starts at 100 (full). Specials (Square, Triangle and Circle) use 25 Mana and it recovers at a rate of 5 per second. (Roughly one ability per 5 seconds.)

Class details:

Titan Class: Terra Titan
Special Utility: Provides the heaviest control amongst all Titans.
Main Attack (X): Quake – Slam violently dealing heavy damage in front of you and slowing down enemies for 2 seconds.
Damage Special (Square): Molten Leash – Grapples a distant enemy dealing heavy damage and pulling them to the Titan.
Heal/Defense Special (Triangle): Obsidian Skin – Become immune for 2 seconds and heal some health.
Control Special (Circle): Fissure – Deals moderately high damage from far away in a straight line and stuns anyone hit for 3 seconds.

Explanation: The Terra Titan is hulky and melee oriented, and comes with the necessary tools to keep up with its fleeing targets. Because I think of brutes when I think about the element of earth, I decided they would make excellent melee heavy-hitters and would fit the theme of bringing the most control.



Titan Class: Tidecaller Titan
Special Utility: Has the strongest healing and can provide minor healing even to allies.
Main Attack (X): Waterjet – Summon a fast moving water missile that deals damage and pierces targets.
Damage Special (Square): Twister – Fire a water seed that spawns a twister on impact with an enemy. The twister follows the hit enemy, deals damage and slows them and any nearby enemies.
Heal/Defense Special (Triangle): Calm Waters – Summon a blessed pool of water, instantly healing the Tidecaller and healing self and all allies in the pool over time.
Control Special (Circle): Tsunami – Call a massive wave that deals crushing damage and pushes enemies away and slows them down for 3 seconds.

Explanation: Tide callers are watery sorcerers and use various water-themed abilities to blast down their target and keep them away. Water is often related to restoration, so their special feat is having stronger than average healing, some of which can even spill over to nearby allies.



Titan Class: Stormweaver Titan
Special Utility: Hinders enemy Mana recharge while boosting allies' mana rates.
Main Attack (X): Lightning Lash – Slashes twice, quickly with lightning dealing small damage with each attack (two hits per attack). Each hit shaves 1 mana.
Damage Special (Square): Overload – Devastating electrical attack that slows hit enemies for 3 seconds and empowers the caster and nearby allies, restoring 2 mana per second for 5 seconds. (Doesn't stack. New Overloads will refresh the buff)
Heal/Defense Special (Triangle): Windwall – Form a wall of air that reflects projectiles for 2 seconds and reduces damage taken by 50%. The wall heals the Stormweaver over 2 seconds.
Control Special (Circle): Static Chain – Latches a static chain to an enemy. That damage is stunned for 3 seconds and cannot regain Mana during that time.

Explanation: The Stormweaver has two primary elements, wind and lightning, both of which are used for energy sources. Because of this I felt an "energy control" niche would fit them perfectly. Their basic attacks shave mana slowly from the enemy and their powerful burst attack energizes allies providing a mana boost to aid combat.



Titan Class: Celestial Titan
Special Utility: Able to grant the team increased movement speed.
Main Attack (X): Shooting Star – Shoots a star that explodes on impact.
Damage Special (Square): Solar Flare – Sends out a solar flare wave dealing heavy damage and setting enemies on fire dealing damage over the next 3 seconds.
Heal/Defense Special (Triangle): Lunar Light – Calls down lunar light healing the titan for a small burst, then more over the next 3 seconds.
Control Special (Circle): Supernova – Explode, dealing damage and pushing away allies. Increases the caster’s and nearby ally’s movement speed for a few seconds. Usable while stunned and breaks all control effects.

Explanation: The celestial has an array of space-themed spells and because the universe is rapidly expanding I felt a group speed utility would be fitting. The celestial deals heavy damage via burning enemies with solar flares and can pick up the pace of a group by increasing their own and allies' speeds with their ability Supernova.


OLD
That said, in this next game I decided to make 6 classes to chose from and each have a unique resource. I plan on making a story mode as well as supporting "pvp". I have some ideas of how I want each of these resources to work, but I'm worried that the "pick up and play" value won't be good enough, at the same time I don't necessarily want to cut class depth because I feel like thats what makes PVP and even story mode fun for better players.

So if anyone would like to help. Discuss complexity with me and if you think any of these systems sound too hard to figure out on the fly or if they'd be in a good spot. Each class will only have 4 abilities, but differ in functionality. Basic attack is X, damage/burst ability would be square, healing/defensive would be triangle and control/mobility would be circle.

The following are the classes:

Class: Stormblade, 400 HP.
Resource: Storm Energy. 0-100 Gained from Lightning Slash and taking damage.
Passive: Overwhelming Storm. Being hit generates 5 storm energy.
Main Attack: Slash - Deal 30 damage and gain 10 SE.
Damage Booster: Storm Fury – Initial: Burst of lightning dealing 50 damage and stunning for 1 second. Continuous: Slash becomes Electric Slash, slowing enemy movement and dealing 40 damage while attacking faster. (.75 versus 1 sec attacks) 20 cost, 5/s.
Defensive/Heal: Wind Wall – Initial: Blocks all damage for 1 second. Continuous: Reduces damage taken by 50% while up and gradually restores 15 HP per second. 20 cost, 5/s.
Control/Mobility: Strong-winds – Initial: Frees from control effects and pushes enemies away. Continuous: Increases movement speed by 25% while active. 20 cost, 5/s.

Comments: The Stormweaver is all about buff weaving and managing Storm Energy to get the most benefit when fighting. Abilities have an initial cost and will be on the global cooldown and slowly drain Storm Energy over the duration. Turning off a buff does not require a global cooldown but can’t be turned off within .5 seconds of turning it on (for double tap protection). Multiple buffs can be active at once, but the more active at once; the harder it becomes to manage the constant Storm Energy loss.


Class: Titan 600 HP.
Resource: 2 Runes. Each recharge individually in 6 seconds.
Passive: Unbreakable Will. Reduces the time of control effects by 50%.
Main Attack: Crush – Crushing swing that deals 50 damage.
Damage Booster: Earthquake – Deals 30 damage and 30 damage every second for 3 seconds in the area and slows enemies by 50%.
Defensive/Heal: Obsidian Armor – The Titan becomes as hard as obsidian becoming immune to damage for 2 seconds and insteantly healing 60 hp. Usable when stunned, but does not break it.
Control/Mobility: Fissure – Deals 60 damage and stuns enemies for 3 seconds.

Comments: Titan is a brute. He packs quite a punch with each attack and is incredibly resilient. His moveset is relatively straight forward and simple to use, but what makes him unique is his rune resource. Because there are only two runes, each attack must be used to its maximum potential as a poorly placed earthquake, missed fissure or wasted obsidian armor causes more loss than a missed special for other classes. Enemies will take advantage of this.


Class: Pyro 400 HP.
Passive: Short Fuse. Being hit has a 20% chance to grant ignite.
Resource: Ignite. 0-3. Certain fire attacks have a chance to gain ignite, which empowers your special attacks. You can pool up to 3 charges or use them immediately.
Main Attack: Fireball. Deals 40 damage builds an ignite charge.
Damage Booster: Explosive Meteor - Normal: Fires a meteor that explodes on impact that deals 20 damage and causes burning.. Ignited: Deals 60 damage and causes burning and has a 50% to refund the ignite charge.
Defensive/Heal: Inner Flame – Normal: Heals for 30. Ignited: Heals for 60 removes CC effects (Usable while CCed only with ignite.
Control/Mobility: WIP (Old version was far too powerful/maintainable)

Comments: Pyro is a wildfire class that prefers fast movement and quick combat rather than slowing enemies down. A Pyro starts off firing off a fireball to build ignite charges (doesn’t have to hit anyone!*). From then they have stronger options. Pyros, unlike various other classes, can use their abilities at any time without any resources, but they are significantly weaker. When they have ignite charges they can use powerful version of their spells to heal more, move faster and for longer or deal significantly harder hits. Explosive Meteor has a 50% chance to re-ignite, meaning you can use them in succession without having to rebuild ignite charges. This rewards quick reactive play. In addition to the reactive play and to balance against melee’s damage reduction mechanics versus multiple enemies, being hit has a chance to gain ignite via short fuse, allowing more burst, healing if needbe.


I plan on having a "tutorial" for each class, but part of me worries that wouldn't be sufficient, and raw "situational" abilities and no resource management would be the best choice, but then I worry about lack of depth and PVP enjoyment.

Any feedback and thoughts would be incredibly helpful, I'm hitting a roadblock.		2014-09-14 18:55:00

Author:
RonPierce
Posts: 131

I would limit it to 3 (maybe 4) classes to be honest. More always seems better but it also means time taken away from expanding the possibilities of other classes. I would concentrate on 3 or 4 and hone them to the bone. The very fact that you've only written 3 classes so far should shows THESE are the classes you instinctively gravitated to. If you 'force' yourself to add more you could run the risk of adding for the sake of adding and the player will likely pick up on that.

As far as tutorial go, can't you integrate them as you go? Instead of hitting the playing with a page full of text, offer them little snippets of information as they level up or find new weapons/armour/abilities.		2014-09-14 22:22:00

Author:
GribbleGrunger
Posts: 3910

I don't like tutorials. They're a necessary evil sometimes, but it's my opinion that they should be completely avoided when possible and kept as brief as possible when not. Also, and I can't stress this enough, make them skippable!!! Nobody will play your level more than once if they have to sit through a lengthy tutorial every time (cutscenes should be skippable as well). In fact, you should put as little between the start of your level and the fun part as possible. Is the jumping/platforming the fun part of your level? Start right into it. Combat? Start with a fight. Puzzle solving? The player had better start right into a puzzle at the beginning of the game.

LBP isn't like most games, or rather the community levels aren't. Most games have the hype, the articles, the previews, reviews, trailers and word of mouth plus the $30-60 investment that will tell a gamer that they need to stick with it past the menus, the credits, the cutscenes and the tutorials. Assume that you don't have any of that going for you and need to impress the player within the first 30 seconds or they'll leave and find another level to play.

That doesn't mean you can't have complex play mechanics, but you need a better way to teach the player than a snoozy tutorial. The best way is to design the level (at least in the early parts) so that it's obvious what the player needs to do until they get used to their abilities. Don't beat them over the head with signs but give them hints. As the game progresses, you can throw them into situations where they'll need the more advanced techniques but make sure you've found a way to demonstrate them by then.

If you don't mind some seriously NSFW language, the following video gives the best explanation to approachable gameplay that I've ever heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

Also, I'm a huge fan of what I have termed the "you suck meter." This is where a game gives you a break or a hint or something if you're stuck for too long or otherwise scales the difficulty to be more manageable. The old Crash Bandicoot games would do this: if you died too many times in one area, you'd respawn with the tiki mask that gave you an extra hit point. The Uncharted games will throw you a hint if you're stuck on a puzzle for a minute or two.		2014-09-15 03:20:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188

Thanks for the feedback guys. I've taken what you said into consideration and i agree. I actually had 6 planned classes (names down and general ideas, not as far along). The idea was to do a side-game tutorial, like its own level. But I'm rethinking all of that.

I've decided it's probably best to narrow it down to 4 classes. And instead of no resource or all unique, each will have a streamlined "mana" like resource which will be like any ability (square, triangle, circle) that isn't your main attack will simply just cost 25 mana. (or simply 1/4 a bar) and it will regenerate at 5 per second. Pretty simple. So you can manage your mana for timing your bigger abilities for the best time. Some depth but not at all confusing. How does this sound? Would be able to explain mana in just a few ignorable "pop up" tips at like the bottom of the screen like "Tip: Specials cost 25 of 100 mana. Mana comes back slowly." or something like that. I think this still gives some depth but is much much easier for players to figure out.		2014-09-15 22:32:00

Author:
RonPierce
Posts: 131

awesome stuff

so much agree.

It's been a huge learning curve for me, and one I'm still on (skippable everything is hard work!) But I really am striving to get players into the godd parts of a level asap - or at the very least, show the learning rather than tell. Much better to leanr how to point and click by.... pointing and clicking, than being told what the x button does. (Like what i used to do a-derp.)

OP: This project sounds amazing, and I'm sure you'll find everything you need - big good luck to you!		2014-09-15 23:08:00

Author:
rialrees
Posts: 1015

so much agree.

It's been a huge learning curve for me, and one I'm still on (skippable everything is hard work!) But I really am striving to get players into the godd parts of a level asap - or at the very least, show the learning rather than tell. Much better to leanr how to point and click by.... pointing and clicking, than being told what the x button does. (Like what i used to do a-derp.)

OP: This project sounds amazing, and I'm sure you'll find everything you need - big good luck to you!
Thanks for the toss in. You're right. I'll have to come up with a clever way to introduce combat. I'll look around. Luckily I'm going with a fairly simple combat system that has depth spawned from how well you use your abilities and less complexity in the abilities themselves. I feel like this is a better direction to take. I'm pretty confident in this working though!

I've started drafting out some story ideas. I'm thinking the classes will be "Titan" (Fire and earth) "Tidecaller" (Water and Ice), Stormweaver (Lightning and air) and "Something", missing a name for the Lunar/Solar class. Players will be playing as mana guardians of the various levels of life, ground and core, water, air and energy and the "outterworld" solar and lunar. Their job was to use these powers to defend the vault and their civilization from others who wish to tap the vaults for their own purposes and the vaults had already been raided and caused your tribe to flee and there is a super power using the vault to reign over the world. The guardians of the vault need to banish monstrosities unleashed from the vault back into the mana realms and reclaim the vault. Sorry the details are so sketchy, it'll sound much better as I work on it, I promise but I'm still trying to see how I want things to work out.

I've learned some important things though here from you guys and from my past experiences. I started some top downs in the past but I designed them with my family in mind, generally 3-4 players, and I realized it just wasn't a smart move. So this time I'm considering 1-2 player levels with scaling difficulty (harder bosses/more HP and more monsters spawning) if more players enter. If I do it that way any amount of players can play my levels and not feel like its too hard or too easy and can have a good time.

Here's some videos of what I started with back in LBP2, back when I had to animate everything the hard way for top-down. Can't wait for better top-down controls and animations...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48Xeccl5KM&list=UUDeg4vBVURymuk5CYBEfQKw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swJJCflilQc&index=12&list=UUDeg4vBVURymuk5CYBEfQKw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvbAzaiGlQ0&list=UUDeg4vBVURymuk5CYBEfQKw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSHZObXA2oQ&list=UUDeg4vBVURymuk5CYBEfQKw		2014-09-16 02:53:00

Author:
RonPierce
Posts: 131

... and "Something", missing a name for the Lunar/Solar class.

What about Celestial?		2014-09-16 19:26:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

What about Celestial?

I like it! Thanks!
Okay, so Titan, Tidecaller, Stormweaver and Celestial. Those are the 4 "Elemental Guardians" of sorts.

Edit: Except I'm also not sure I want to call them the Elemental guardians, since they're not technically specific elements, they're layers of life (almost based on geology, except with the added outer layer). I might need help naming the guardians too. The "X" guardians. Or I might just call them the Guardians of the Vault and leave it at that... There's a lot of work to be done. Luckily this wait for LBP3 gives me an extensive pre-planning phase.		2014-09-16 20:41:00

Author:
RonPierce
Posts: 131

TC, I rarely recommend you do X because I dont know exactly what you want the players to experience and not to immune any tips given,(the suggestions are great) but I think its eluding the real issue here. This is more of food for thought and I believe thinking about this will help.

I think this is a question of Complexity vs Depth.

Complexity is simply the amount of rules or mechanics the players has to understand to be able to play the game; Depth is the possibility space enabled by the games rules. Take something like Tic Tac Toe. This game has both low complexity, because there arent that many rules, and it has low depth because there are only really 9 moves you can do with the rules that are established. Thus, very low possibility space.

Lets correlate this to your project.

It sounds like this is some sort of brawler so lets take a popular game like Super Smash Brothers. Does this game have more complexity than it does depth?

http://www.dan-dare.org/FreeFun/SonicMarioExtra/SuperSmashBrosWallpaper2800.jpg

Correct, Super Smash Brothers has low complexity but very high depth. Its is really easy to pick up and play. Within minutes you can understand all the rules and mechanics you need to go out and battle your buddies. However, these games, particularly Melee and beyond, are very very deep and the match possibilities are merely endless. Its easy to pick up all the characters and play as them, but it takes a long time to develop the reflexes, combat experience, and mastery over your battle characters to conquer some of this games challenges and even worse real life tournaments. The game has a large possibility space and consistent rules( which is very important to Depth as well) thats what makes it so fun.

Considered to be the staple of creating good games in todays market, most game designers almost universally build games with the "elegant" format. This is low-complexity and high depth. I think if you want to attract a large audience in LBP, it must be elegant.

With that said, heres my answer to you adding more characters. Ask yourself, will adding more battle characters create more rules the player has to know in order to play the game? Sure, the characters may be different and it may take a while to adjust to them, but does the player really have to learn an entirely new rule just because theres a different move set? Hmmm...

If the answer is no, then adding more characters will increase more of the depth in your game--assuming they are somewhat different than the other characters and not just different costumes.

My suggestion basically would be make the controls and rules, as simple and condensed as possible, focusing more on possibility space. (Does blocking at certain times trigger certain "Events", or are some characters faster, heavier, jump higher, more magical prowess?) As long as the characters you are adding are not adding rules the players has to understand in order to play the game, then its not becoming more complex; theres more depth, even if a little, being added.

I would be really really careful with tutorials, and I wont get too much into this. Never force your players to learn every character, unless it is integral to progressing in the story--if it can be avoided. Tutorials by definition are introduction to the games mechanics or complexities. If you stuff too much in the players face forcefully, you could scare them off. If possible, make these optional or even better, use the story as a tutorial. The order of challenges you put in front of the players can create great tutorials.

As seen in Journey, you do not need text to teach the player mechanics.

I can literally go on about this and hopefully my own post didnt come across as complex lol. Good Luck TC!		2014-09-17 00:46:00

Author:
Rpg Maker
Posts: 877

Surprised you didn't just call the guardians 'Titans'. Celestial Titan, Tidecaller Titan, Stormweaver Titan, and then something to replace the titan one. Like, since he's a tank, Bastille Titan.

Or, the Gaians, Terriens ('Terra&apos [Heh. Terrorians], Geods, Earthkin, or maybe even take a name from ze old book and use Nephilim. Although, if they are holding something, or have something important, Keepers works too.

Curious. Will there be leveling?


As for tutorials. It's how you approach a tutorial. If it's not entertaining enough while teaching a player at the same time, then you're doing it wrong. It can become boring if you just hold their hand and tell them what to do, especially if you give them a button map. Button maps are fine for reminder, but not in any way a focus towards teaching the player. And no surprises. Like it says in the Megaman YT video, make it the players fault, not yours, unless the outcome isn't significant to the point where the player feels betrayed by the game. Get hit, lose a little life or show pain. Show them little by little of what their things can do. One of the best ways to do this is to give them their powers one by one, or put them in situations where only that one power can solve the issue.

But yeah. Don't knock tutorials because some games approach them in a boring way.		2014-09-17 00:57:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

Great discussion going on here. It has done wonders for my outlook. I am revising how each class works. I'll try to update the original post once that's done. I've decided that there is certainly too much complexity to "force" depth. That isn't what I want. In the long run, while some more persistent players might have enjoyed things like the Stormweaver for its complexity, it wouldn't have been a mass appeal. Instead, I'm going to have each class run on this resource system so that each class functions similarly but with different strengths and weaknesses.

Mana Resource: 100 mana.
Specials (square, triangle and circle) use 25 mana. It comes back at 5 per second. That makes it easy to figure out when your specials can be used and there will be San easy to read/see Mana bar under the health bar.

Classes will instead just have different strengths such as perhaps having the Stormweaver's damage special drain enemy mana. Or other things like that. Things you will notice while playing and possibly think "cool I like this class because it is good for such and such, which I noticed while playing."

Basically, non mandatory bonuses that make each class unique, but not required to complete a level.

This way, I can explain the basics in a very basic and intuitive way and let people explore without the mechanics being too punishing. I think the term I'd like to shoot for is easy to play, hard to master.

I think I may take the suggestion and name it "Titans of the Vault". The story is coming together. Without giving too much away, the general idea is that the Vault is a source of power. The Titans are ordinary knights that were granted Titan Powers from the vault by the Vaultkeepers, an ancient family of very powerful, but pure, wizards. They granted the Powers of the Titans as a balance of power (corruption prevention) and to help civilians and defend them and the vault. The vault has been breached though and the Keepers subdued and taken away and split up. A Titan alone is unable to reach the vault now because of the power being controlled by someone else. So their first task is to save the Keepers who have the power to aid you in a Siege of the Vault. The final showdown will end up at the vault, and hopefully will be rather epic!

Skipping some important details, you are entered into the order of the Keepers and become a Vaultkeeper yourself, which is a very high honor.

The Original Vaultkeepers are an old father, his son and wife and their son, but that's all I'm ready to detail about them right now.

And to answer one more question... I don't THINK I want leveling, because there WILL be pvp, and I want that to be a welcoming experience. I havent fully decided though. I do think I will be having custom made costumes and other goodies "drop" from bosses though! If people enjoy the game, I may even consider adding "Challenge Modes", time trial zone runs for unique goodies.

Thoughts?

- - - - - - - - - -

I wanted to add, do people think it'd be fun to have cosmetic levels? Like say you "create" a character and it holds all of your information of what you've done, etc and add levels just for veteran's sake? I don't want massive power influx, but I could see the charm in a cosmetic leveling system. What are peoples' thoughts on this?		2014-09-17 01:36:00

Author:
RonPierce
Posts: 131

I wanted to add, do people think it'd be fun to have cosmetic levels? Like say you "create" a character and it holds all of your information of what you've done, etc and add levels just for veteran's sake? I don't want massive power influx, but I could see the charm in a cosmetic leveling system. What are peoples' thoughts on this?

It doesnt sound like you want leveling TC.

I went through the same thing and I actually learned a thing or two in this thread already. When I built my RPG, I put just a ton of various elements inside the game. Until one day I let a 6 year old play my game and I went through the menus--showed him all this fancy logic working, and by the time I was done, all the boy asked was " Is there EXP?" Where were tons of these systems going on everywhere.

I laughed because here I was adding all this stuff, and all that would satisfy the player was a simple level up system( This is an RPG game mind you.) Leveling systems are simply there for a sense of progression. Unlike RPGs, PVP games are largely based on skill( or the fun ones at least) and LVL can create great imbalance (and more complexity.)

Maybe a ranking up system, so you wont have to actually change stats. Dude trust me, stats are not fun. EXP itself is simple, but when you go into creating actual stats, you have to balance those and across multiple classes and after all that work, maybe 2 percent of the players will actually care. In PVP, all they want to do is knock the potatoes out of each other. Players gain a sense of progression when they find ways to finally defeat their foes.

You could also put moves that are a bit harder to learn or master. Rewards are also a nice bonus. I would focus on just the core game for now though, unless thats done.		2014-09-17 02:38:00

Author:
Rpg Maker
Posts: 877

Cosmetic leveling is fine! Doesn't impede on newcomers. Good call for that.

Also. Simplicity can be great. When you can do a lot with something simple, that can add a lot of depth to gameplay.

Although, your focus right now should be the non-multiplayer stuff. Have the pvp be a separate stage/thing altogether. Since these levels tend to take time to build a player-base, focusing more on single player more than 2-player would be best. Have 2-4 players an option of course. Dungeon crawlers can be a load of fun with others, but also by yourself.


And when you finally DO get around to the pvp, incorporate a lot from what was in your story's gameplay. Maybe even only have the pvp unlockable if the player reaches a certain point in your game. Although that would limit newcomers from jumping right into pvp, but I am not very familiar with how that would work out, regarding the ups and downs.

- - - - - - - - - -


You could also put moves that are a bit harder to learn or master. Rewards are also a nice bonus. I would focus on just the core game for now though, unless thats done.

Just don't go all Street Fighter. For me, having to learn the more complicated moves like that focused more on seniority, since playing the game for longer means you learn the moves better. Seniority will play a role regardless, but you don't want user interfaces to be daunting towards newcomers. Simple controls are great. That way, it's not the lack of experience with inputting commands and muscle memory, it's the players' choices in using the tools that is their downfall. One of the reasons why I love SSB controls so much, personally, is due to this. That's a simple interface. Anyone can use those moves pretty much on the first go and then it's up to the player to decide if they want to try and best others. But of course there's the power gaming and more technical stuff, but that's a seniority-only club; usually, when you reach that point, you're talking tourny play, or very competitive play.

Street Fighter is fun, and it was satisfying to learn the moves- eventually, but boy were the input commands annoying. I want to do this move at this time or for this reason- and I know the character can do this move, but the only thing stopping me are these dang inputs. Muscle memory, non-obvious tricks, and memorization is all seniority to me- the wiring in the tools that turn them on. Skill, is the ability to apply what tools you are given. If there were a guitar- seniority is everything that makes up the guitar. Skill is being able to play.

But that's all me, and I went on a bit of a tangent there, but meh. I already typed it up. So it's staying! :V		2014-09-17 02:48:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

Cosmetic leveling is fine! Doesn't impede on newcomers. Good call for that.

Just don't go all Street Fighter. For me, having to learn the more complicated moves like that focused more on seniority, since playing the game for longer means you learn the moves better. Seniority will play a role regardless, but you don't want user interfaces to be daunting towards newcomers. Simple controls are great. That way, it's not the lack of experience with inputting commands and muscle memory, it's the players' choices in using the tools that is their downfall. One of the reasons why I love SSB controls so much, personally, is due to this. That's a simple interface. Anyone can use those moves pretty much on the first go and then it's up to the player to decide if they want to try and best others. But of course there's the power gaming and more technical stuff, but that's a seniority-only club; usually, when you reach that point, you're talking tourny play, or very competitive play.

Street Fighter is fun, and it was satisfying to learn the moves- eventually, but boy were the input commands annoying. I want to do this move at this time or for this reason- and I know the character can do this move, but the only thing stopping me are these dang inputs. Muscle memory, non-obvious tricks, and memorization is all seniority to me- the wiring in the tools that turn them on. Skill, is the ability to apply what tools you are given. If there were a guitar- seniority is everything that makes up the guitar. Skill is being able to play.

But that's all me, and I went on a bit of a tangent there, but meh. I already typed it up. So it's staying! :V

It really is muscle memory. I think this is why I am more of a SSB or Soul Calibur guy. SC had some tough moves, but a majority of them were easy to pull off. I maybe made it to rank C in Street Fighter and thats mostly because my opponents could not do their moves when they wanted. That is a complex game--it looks simple but its not lol I had to learn just how to pull off moves for like a week before I started winning any matches online.

I actually was going to mention Street fighter in my complexity vs depth excerpt I typed a little bit ago. That game is both complex and deep, but I think I was just too casual for that game. It took a lot of commitment just to be able to play the game. Hadokens just dont work like they used to I guess.		2014-09-17 03:48:00

Author:
Rpg Maker
Posts: 877

It really is muscle memory. I think this is why I am more of a SSB or Soul Calibur guy. SC had some tough moves, but a majority of them were easy to pull off. I maybe made it to rank C in Street Fighter and thats mostly because my opponents could not do their moves when they wanted. That is a complex game--it looks simple but its not lol I had to learn just how to pull off moves for like a week before I started winning any matches online.

I actually was going to mention Street fighter in my complexity vs depth excerpt I typed a little bit ago. That game is both complex and deep, but I think I was just too casual for that game. It took a lot of commitment just to be able to play the game. Hadokens just dont work like they used to I guess.
I must admit, I come from playing many many years of WoW and I've come to appreciate depth with little complexity. It's a thin line to hit deep, simple BUT enjoyable, and that's really what I'm aiming for here. This is LBP3 and a few levels in that from a random no-body, even if the skill and craftsmanship is there, no one is going to give me the time of day. I need to wow people quick, keep them hooked and make it playable, so that's really my ultimate goal. Simple yet fun but rewarding for over performance, rather than punishing for under performance, if that makes sense. I for one am all for adding "hardmodes" and extra difficult zones for players who enjoy my content but want to be pressed to the limit, SO LONG AS the general public can see it and still have fun. This wasn't my mindset in LBP2 and it costed me big time. (That and not joining LBPcentral until the game was already on a downward slope- womp)

So here's a bit of detail update for structure. I'll reference an old video I made in LBP2 for a world called "Velis".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swJJCflilQc

All major areas will be their own "level". You will likely see something like a story intro, a mini-boss or two and a major boss and that will lead to more story and unlocking a new part of the story.

PVP will be its own "stage", you will just enter, be given a side (1v1), pick a class and boom, enter the arena and have a ball until someone dies.

PVE (story) will be structured by various stages and stage unlocks. You will start in one point, get the quest to venture into 3 other "zones" or levels to free the Vaultkeepers, then you will have an assault on the Vault with the Vaultkeepers aiding you. I'm thinking the battle of the vault will be pretty exciting as you will get to fight along side these major characters in bringing down the villain so it's not just you, you're tide into the story and it doesn't have the "lapdog" effect of being ordered around, you're part of a resistance, not a pawn. So far I'm thinking it'll be probably an optional intro cinematic, an intro "zone" where you are on the outside of the vault which is being protected by a magical barrier keeping you from entering and where you realize that the Vaultkeepers are imprisoned. Then you embark into the three surrounding zones to free the Vaultkeepers (sort of MegamanX style, if you will. Into -> choice zones -> final boss). Then you find out what happened, if you haven't already pieced it together yet, and have a war and restore the Mana Vault.

That said, yes, there will be different loading screens whether you want to PVP or do a specific story (in the instance of possibly crossing paths with other players). So you should always only run into other players who share similar goals, if at all.

How I'm going to handle EXP:
I will introduce a "saved character" system that simply shows your EXP/level based on what you've accomplished. When in a PVE zone it will show your PVE level. You get more EXP from doing harder content or content with more people (as will be apparent). If and when I add challenge modes I may add a special graphic like a "rank icon" next to player's HP showing what their highest level of difficulty they've completed is too. This just gives them some fun prestige, purely cosmetic and fun.

PVP, I will do something similar. I'll have EXP based on completed PVP games, so people can see about how experienced their opponent is, and if I can think of a good way to handle it, I might add a win/lose ratio icon like the PVE icon. My only issue is I'm sure it'd be easy to cheat with a friend unfortunately, but I don't want that to stop me from giving something fun to the non-cheaters.

I... MIGHT consider (and please, do cast opinions on this) adding an open world PVP zone that allows random players to join in a map (1-4 players, obviously) to just hop in and do some FFA world pvp. Hop in, throw some punches and leave when you're bored.

I think I covered everything on the table here, if I missed any questions just re-ask.		2014-09-17 04:30:00

Author:
RonPierce
Posts: 131

It really is muscle memory. I think this is why I am more of a SSB or Soul Calibur guy. SC had some tough moves, but a majority of them were easy to pull off. I maybe made it to rank C in Street Fighter and thats mostly because my opponents could not do their moves when they wanted. That is a complex game--it looks simple but its not lol I had to learn just how to pull off moves for like a week before I started winning any matches online.

I actually was going to mention Street fighter in my complexity vs depth excerpt I typed a little bit ago. That game is both complex and deep, but I think I was just too casual for that game. It took a lot of commitment just to be able to play the game. Hadokens just dont work like they used to I guess.



It is complex and deep, although the learning curve is a bit of seniority. That focusing down and practicing those special stick turns and button combinations kept new players and casual players, from really getting the true fun out of the game. Some would argue that the reward for doing such hard work was being able to play in that new league- that all the focus made the game more fun. But personally, I don't want to work to have fun. A job for money is one thing, but I'm playing a game, which its purpose is for entertainment. (What some find as entertaining is subjective, so that encompasses all forms) I want to fight against a player, not the game. (Ai is included in 'A Player&apos

It was complex due to the many button combinations, and it had depth since the possibilities and combinations were very numerous, but it created a wall with the input of those commands. A wall of seniority. Imagine if you could play Street Fighter and do a move at will. (Obvious cooldowns for some anti-spam) At that point, it would be the skill of the player that determines the winner. Obviously there are balancing of characters, but that's something else, but is also important. In this scenario, it is implied that it is fairly balanced.

Anyways. The whole point is, you want the player to fight the opponent, and not the game. This is why start is start, and why R1's not up, R2 is not left, and O is not turn off the Playstation. AND in a war of Depth vs Complexity, both is great, but you don't want to be too complex, or create a wall that keeps others out.		2014-09-17 04:48:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

It is complex and deep, although the learning curve is a bit of seniority. That focusing down and practicing those special stick turns and button combinations kept new players and casual players, from really getting the true fun out of the game. Some would argue that the reward for doing such hard work was being able to play in that new league- that all the focus made the game more fun. But personally, I don't want to work to have fun. A job for money is one thing, but I'm playing a game, which its purpose is for entertainment. (What some find as entertaining is subjective, so that encompasses all forms) I want to fight against a player, not the game. (Ai is included in 'A Player&apos

It was complex due to the many button combinations, and it had depth since the possibilities and combinations were very numerous, but it created a wall with the input of those commands. A wall of seniority. Imagine if you could play Street Fighter and do a move at will. (Obvious cooldowns for some anti-spam) At that point, it would be the skill of the player that determines the winner. Obviously there are balancing of characters, but that's something else, but is also important. In this scenario, it is implied that it is fairly balanced.

Anyways. The whole point is, you want the player to fight the opponent, and not the game. This is why start is start, and why R1's not up, R2 is not left, and O is not turn off the Playstation. AND in a war of Depth vs Complexity, both is great, but you don't want to be too complex, or create a wall that keeps others out.
Yeah I agree. That's very specifically why I'm taking a new look at my classes. (Going with Terra Titan, Celestial Titan, Tidecaller Titan and Stormweaver Titan) I want it to be casual friendly and fun. The way I see it, depending on popularity, I can always create something for the more hardcore, so long as "anyone" can just have fun with the core game. If people want something mind-numbingly hard, I'll make it for them and give them a special feat for doing so. Or I can even add a "Hardcore Arena" for players who have won a certain amount of matches so they can fight serious players more frequently. It's easier to add complexity for those who want it without alienating the less hardcore players than it is to create a complex and crazy hard game for hardcore players and try to get less hardcore players to enjoy being creamed over and over. That's the way I see it anyways. So I want to start with "everyone" in mind first with only slight complexity and moderate depth and expand from there.

- - - - - - - - - -

UPDATE:
Okay, everyone. I updated the main post with a new look on the classes. Let me know what you think. I even added a description or explanation as to why I designed each the way I did and what makes each one unique. This new system should provide a streamlined way to play with each class having their own strengths and weaknesses and slightly unique ways to use their abilities, which maintaining a streamlined resource mechanic. This way it's easier to try out various classes without feeling like you're playing an entirely new game.		2014-09-17 05:11:00

Author:
RonPierce
Posts: 131


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