Archive: 49 posts

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^ ^ ^ I was just thinking, is it possible to make a level that is as good and as long as the story missions without filling up your thermometer? Because all the long levels I make end up not having as much detail and all the good looking levels I make end up being quite short.

2009-02-21 13:32:00 Author: olit123 Posts: 1341

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I think MM may have expanded the thermometer space on certain levels (like the Dancer's Court), but yes, it's definitely possible to make levels that are just as good.

2009-02-21 13:43:00 Author: Sackdragon Posts: 427

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I think MM may have expanded the thermometer space on certain levels (like the Dancer's Court) So theoretically that means that creators should be able to have more thermo space...

2009-02-21 17:20:00 Author: Unknown User

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So theoretically that means that creators should be able to have more thermo space... Well, MMs levels are on the disc instead of having to be downloaded each time you play, but yeah they are kinda lying :/. But yeah, levels as good is not only possible, there are many here that actually meet that requirement :/.

2009-02-21 17:22:00 Author: RockSauron Posts: 10882

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I think MM may have expanded the thermometer space on certain levels (like the Dancer's Court) The thermometer has the purpose to limit the levels dynamic components so that the physic engine's performance is stable. Expanding this would kill the framerate. So how should MM be able to expand their thermometer space?

2009-02-21 18:40:00 Author: Vanemiera Posts: 329

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To answer the original question though, not many Mm levels are particulaly long but they are really well designed. If you don't have a lot of memory left then I suggest looking at Memory Preservation 101 thread under the help section.

2009-02-21 18:46:00 Author: Coxy224 Posts: 2645

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I do remember MM saying that all the level in story mode fit into the same thermo level we have. Bot obviously they could be telling porkies

2009-02-21 19:04:00 Author: dorien Posts: 2767

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I don't think it comes down to tools available, but rather talent as to whether or not you can match Mm levels. I think they`ve been matched, and bettered on many occasions by the user levels. Mm know the game inside out (obviously) so know how to get the thermometer down. It`s possible they`re cheating but I think it`s more likely that they`re just using their expertise.

2009-02-21 21:44:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096

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Remember, they DID create this game. They know what materials to use, how many different materials to use, all of this allows them to have extra chunks of thermometer space. As to the OP question, there are actually plenty of levels that surpass the beauty/story line of the storyline levels, a few are here actually, and even MM has said it once in a while in their MM Picks.

2009-02-21 21:47:00 Author: Whalio Cappuccino Posts: 5250

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You can absolutely make levels the same size as MM and just as good quality. Use the following techniques: Less complex shapes (MM made a LOT of their levels with extremely simple shapes - in fact, a lot of their levels creatively use squares and triangles a LOT). Keep in mind - a HUGE square takes about the same thermo as a SMALL square - in LBP the biggest determiner is complexity, not size. Less music (for instance, pick a SINGLE interactive song and use it throughout - if you want to change mood, turn off different instruments). Most of the time MM has the same song playing - or the same interactive track playing in different ways. Use limited material - MM levels use a few materials, and then use them creatively. Give players a few things to do in the same area - this gives the illusion of being in a bigger area. Don't have anything beyond what the user can see. I've found I can create a pretty darn big level doing this things. It's usually poor or complex design that uses a lot of thermo (complex is not necessarily poor - sometimes a good author simply wants to create something fantastic, but at the loss of thermo). By the way - just for grins I had the skateboard in a level of mine. When I took THAT ONE OBJECT OUT my thermo dropped about 30%! So, a small complex object can take as much as 30% of your entire level (by the way, this is why the collector level was so small - the complexity of the boss took most of the thermo).

2009-02-21 21:59:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Yeah make your own stuff. Using Mm objects or user created ones will eat into your thermometer like nobodies business.

2009-02-21 22:08:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096

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Nice, thank you CCubbage, I shall use your tips when creating my levels.

2009-02-21 22:15:00 Author: olit123 Posts: 1341

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By the way - just for grins I had the skateboard in a level of mine. When I took THAT ONE OBJECT OUT my thermo dropped about 30%! So, a small complex object can take as much as 30% of your entire level (by the way, this is why the collector level was so small - the complexity of the boss took most of the thermo). I got the boss object from some 100-item level. It took 2-3 bars from the thermometer, I'm trying to put it in my first level. :kz: I think I will have trouble using simple objects... But thanks for the tip, it opened my mind. About Mm levels, it's more about dedication. I mean, they can spend all their time creating those levels since they are getting paid to do that. And there's a lot of them working. It's possible to make levels look good, it just takes REAL hardwork. Just look at LittleDeadSpace. Personally, I think that looks exemplary.

2009-02-22 00:44:00 Author: uzman Posts: 209

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I think it is possible. I will say it time and time again, the key to good visuals is material choice, lighting and colour correction. The other things that are important, are effects like using rockets for smoke, and the layout: using the 3 planes and thin layers effectively. Going by this, stickers and decorations, while important, can be neglected until the polishing stages. Also, a very important thing to remember is to make the level stop where the play cannot see it. You don't need a 16 medium square thick ground, 4 should be plenty is you use camera zones.

2009-02-22 06:52:00 Author: dkjestrup Posts: 672

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Really, Mm levels are just very polished and look amazung! That's why we assume they are brilliant to play. Granted, some of them have good stuff going on but they don't have any really huge, groundbreaking play (swing on this sponge then talk to this person then bring back something for them - simple stuff). Focus on making your level look good, then on how it plays. It SHOULD look amazing or else nobody will play it. This comes up so often, it's so simple - make it look amazung!

2009-02-22 16:39:00 Author: Coxy224 Posts: 2645

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I say it's entirely possible.I think the only extra things that MM have are extra text for speech bubbles, pink text, video screens and music/material prize bubbles

2009-02-22 18:38:00 Author: Entity Posts: 274

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I say it's entirely possible.I think the only extra things that MM have are extra text for speech bubbles, pink text, video screens and music/material prize bubbles Well, they also have access to complex object creating tools. They can create objects not made with materials.

2009-02-23 01:17:00 Author: Arkei Posts: 1432

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Well, they also have access to complex object creating tools. They can create objects not made with materials. Yes, but they don't seem to abuse this. For instance, all the complex objects they built they ended up giving away as prize bubbles in the levels. It seems to me they WANT to encourage creation, since it's the back bone of their entire product and the reason it sells well. Even newer things they did (such as the environment effects) are being added to the creation mode.

2009-02-23 02:19:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Man, I so want to get my hands on the PC tools that they use to create their levels.

2009-02-24 20:33:00 Author: olit123 Posts: 1341

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The implication of most of the things that have been said about MM levels in this thread is that their PC editor only differs from ours by the mouse and the keyboard they (might be able to) use with it. Except for the custom objects like oranges and stuff, all the things they did, we can to. I agree that they didn't cheat, except in as far as their super-expertise counts as cheating. I even think it's right to say that the MM levels are really simple, that is to say: simple compared to the concoctions of players that 'paint' levels with a material-brush. Of course, simplicity-the-MM-style equals elegance.

2009-02-25 10:07:00 Author: Wonko the Sane Posts: 109

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The levels can certainly be done, excluding the odd long text bubble and such. I'm quite sure the thermometer will be able to take it. I think I'm a pretty effecient designer, thermo wise. My second level ran into thermometer problems only because of my ridiculous brickwork (all seperate blocks) and the huge amount of high-polygon waves. My first level is easily as large as a MM level and not even at 2/3 of the thermometer... With their knowledge of the thermo and the engine, I don't think they're pushing it anywhere..

2009-02-25 11:56:00 Author: Wyth Posts: 263

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The levels can certainly be done, excluding the odd long text bubble and such. I'm quite sure the thermometer will be able to take it. I think I'm a pretty effecient designer, thermo wise. My second level ran into thermometer problems only because of my ridiculous brickwork (all seperate blocks) and the huge amount of high-polygon waves. My first level is easily as large as a MM level and not even at 2/3 of the thermometer... With their knowledge of the thermo and the engine, I don't think they're pushing it anywhere.. I totally agree. It all comes down to design. Your original Jack McSetback was designed COMPLETELY differently than the second one. The first one has a lot more things happening in it, but is less complex. The 2nd one has a lot more details in it, and is more complex on some of the mechanics... so it's shorter. I went back and played some of the MM levels and many of them really aren't as long as people imagine they are. It's just that you are playing so many of them one after another. A lot of them are relatively short. Now... take a look at "Sack's in the City". The level technically is not THAT big, but the open nature design and what RangerZero DOES with the space makes it feel HUGE. Because of the nature of his puzzles you end up going many places multiple times while exploring... so you get the feeling it's much bigger than it is. On the other hand, my initial descent in "Splat Invaders II" seems to be really short - but in fact it takes the ENTIRE height of the creation space and a big chunk of my thermo.

2009-02-25 13:50:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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And so we conclude; it IS possible to make levels as good as Mm providing you have the right knowledge of the thermometer and you know how to use everything. All I can say is, get to making them now peoples!

2009-02-25 16:29:00 Author: Coxy224 Posts: 2645

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Absolutely. Actually, I'm willing to bet most of the Mm levels don't come near overheat on the thermo. Even the dancers court, with all it's emitters, are only emitting basic squares, and you can bet their emitters are set to emit no more than onscreen at once. Lengthwise, here's where we have a big illusion. Mm levels are not long at all. Look at the templates, many of these levels were designed to fit in most overhead storage bins. They use the space well. But even if you time yourself, most of their levels take under 5 minutes if you breeze through them. The story levels seem far more concerned with aesthetics, plot, and gameplay than complexity or size. If you think of a "room" being equivalent to a thematic area, almost all of the story levels are only 3-4 of these areas connected together.

2009-02-28 07:31:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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Shadow Moses: Site B absolutely demolishes Mm's MGS levels. A lengthy and adulatory post in the feedback section forthcoming (I'm just polishing the fourth draft at the moment...)

2009-02-28 19:32:00 Author: Boogaloo Posts: 254

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It's nothing gameplay related that makes MM's levels stand out. They stand out because of their looks. They are EXTREMELY well polished. Trust me, polish is the way to go. Making a level look good, and having the player "ooh" and "aaw!" a lot makes a level good. Look at the MM levels closely, you'll see that the gameplay is actually lamer than your personal garbage. And that can be quite lame.

2009-02-28 21:30:00 Author: ThommyTheThird Posts: 440

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there not that lame gameplay-wise, there are some really neat Ideas.

2009-02-28 21:36:00 Author: olit123 Posts: 1341

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It's nothing gameplay related that makes MM's levels stand out. They stand out because of their looks. They are EXTREMELY well polished. Trust me, polish is the way to go. Making a level look good, and having the player "ooh" and "aaw!" a lot makes a level good. I couldn't agree more. When I was going through the "what makes a good level?" thread, visuals/polish came up on 11 different occasions! Far more than anything else. Polish is everything!

2009-02-28 22:41:00 Author: Coxy224 Posts: 2645

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Yeah, polish is key. Having things sharp and square, well proportioned, simple, not too complicated, etc is what makes a level. Play H.A.T.E., Now the level is 100% polish. Are the graphics good? Well not really, but the perfect symmetry is what makes them appear that way. Was the gameplay THAT great? No! but did everything work perfectly, and look like Voltaire knew what he was doing? Ofcourse. So what do we learn? Polish makes you, and your level professional. It makes it better than it is, and as long as the gameplay is simple, flowing, and easy to grasp you won't have a problem. (No offence Voltaire, just pointing out why your level is good)

2009-02-28 23:04:00 Author: dkjestrup Posts: 672

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I'm sure the designers at MM didn't have to deal with the "profile cannot save/start deleting stuff" message. They probably had no limit to the amount of objects that they could save and reuse.

2009-03-03 08:04:00 Author: DarkDedede Posts: 672

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Yeah, polish is key. Having things sharp and square, well proportioned, simple, not too complicated, etc is what makes a level. Play H.A.T.E., Now the level is 100% polish. Are the graphics good? Well not really, but the perfect symmetry is what makes them appear that way. Was the gameplay THAT great? No! but did everything work perfectly, and look like Voltaire knew what he was doing? Ofcourse. So what do we learn? Polish makes you, and your level professional. It makes it better than it is, and as long as the gameplay is simple, flowing, and easy to grasp you won't have a problem. (No offence Voltaire, just pointing out why your level is good) I definately think Voltaire understands this. Interestingly, if you look at his "Temple of Sun and Moon" level it's obvious he's capable of some pretty amazing things visually, but it wouldn't have fit the subject matter. In my Splat Invaders series it's kind of the same thing - if every edge is trimmed, and everything you're trying to represent is clean - you get that "this is professional" feeling. As you guys know (maybe..) I play a LOT of the showcase levels. In fact, I RARELY play anything except the showcase because I want to support our members the best I can. One thing that always stands out - if you go into a level if it's cleanly designed it definately gives you a much higher first impression of the level EVEN if the author is not very skilled artistically. There are many levels I've felt had a lot of potential, but just were not polished.

2009-03-03 17:39:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I agree that some user made levels are as good as or beat MM's levels but did MM use the level creator like we do? As they're professionally designing levels on their professional game would they have used a different program or at least something more complex then what we have to use?

2009-03-06 00:01:00 Author: adlingtont Posts: 321

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yes you can make better levels but they have thousands of tools to use that we dont. but if your clever enough you can make stuff they can make with those tools by using simple user tricks like logic gates

2009-03-06 00:17:00 Author: Zommy Posts: 1232

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...by using simple user tricks like logic gates Um, logic gates? Do tell...

2009-03-06 12:36:00 Author: Boogaloo Posts: 254

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You know, I think some assume they have thousands of tools we don't, but I'm not really convinced of that. It only makes sense for development and testing that their level designers use the create mode just like we do. I agree they probably use 3D modelling for the small 3D objects (which they then include as collectable objects), but I'm not sure why they WOULDN'T use the create mode. It's actually designed very well.

2009-03-06 14:10:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I've read in an interview with one of the developers that they build their levels on a pc but its basically the same build of the game. They wouldn't have to use the poppit menu as I'm sure that these tools are recreated to suit a pc interface, think like photoshop or maya etc. It still has to abide by the same limitations, and tools we do. Obviously though, as CCubbage said, they have the option of just creating a new material/object/tool etc as and when they need it, but anything they do use in the final build they have given away as prizes.

2009-03-06 14:20:00 Author: wexfordian Posts: 1904

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From an economic point of view, it makes no sense at all that the MM devs should use the in-game editor. Using keyboard and mouse alone would boost productivity by an order of magnitude. I'm sure each of us could come up with a hundred additional ways of speeding up the process of making levels, and you can be sure that these ideas will be implemented if they save real money. They probably have a LAN link connecting development workstations to dev PS3s, allowing for instantaneous testing despite building the levels on a different machine.

2009-03-06 14:30:00 Author: tameturtle Posts: 150

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...but anything they do use in the final build they have given away as prizes. Except the Global Settings Switch! Aaaargh - give it to us already!!!

2009-03-06 15:15:00 Author: Boogaloo Posts: 254

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There have been many levels that surpass MM quality, have a look at our Spotlights

2009-03-07 00:50:00 Author: OCK Posts: 1536

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The thermometer has the purpose to limit the levels dynamic components so that the physic engine's performance is stable. Expanding this would kill the framerate. So how should MM be able to expand their thermometer space? The thermometer is put in place by Mm in order to make level design simpler to understand for the end user. The thermometer is simply a representation of hardware limitations; those limits exist whether or not the thermometer is present. While I wouldn't be surprised if you could squeeze a little extra into a level if the thermometer was removed, there's also the potential for many players becoming confused and irritated by bad framerates and system crashes. The Mm dev team understands how to work with those hardware limitations, which is why I wouldn't be surprised if Mm's level editor is lacking the thermometer. They probably don't even use a PS3 to make their levels - from a productivity standpoint, a PC would be leaps and bounds better at creating than a PS3 would be. Take it with a grain of salt, though - I'm speaking from past experience and common sense, not irrefutable fact.

2009-03-07 05:31:00 Author: ConfusedCartman Posts: 3729

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The thermometer is put in place by Mm in order to make level design simpler to understand for the end user. The thermometer is simply a representation of hardware limitations; those limits exist whether or not the thermometer is present. While I wouldn't be surprised if you could squeeze a little extra into a level if the thermometer was removed, there's also the potential for many players becoming confused and irritated by bad framerates and system crashes. The Mm dev team understands how to work with those hardware limitations, which is why I wouldn't be surprised if Mm's level editor is lacking the thermometer. They probably don't even use a PS3 to make their levels - from a productivity standpoint, a PC would be leaps and bounds better at creating than a PS3 would be. Take it with a grain of salt, though - I'm speaking from past experience and common sense, not irrefutable fact. They do use a PC to make their levels. I remember one of the designers saying something like: "The in-game tools are very similar to the more efficient PC tools".

2009-03-07 10:27:00 Author: Killian Posts: 2575

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the thermo is anoying

2009-03-07 12:13:00 Author: Zommy Posts: 1232

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Quality aside, a lot of people fall into 'efficiency traps' where silly things will eat up loads of space. Emitters will chomp up all your space if you leave the settings so the game thinks theres a potential for it to fill the level up with objects even though you know that can't happen. The game doesn't know that! The corner edit tool is where you save the most space and even though you might think you need a ridiculously smooth floor carved with the circle tool, you really don't. MM never do that. Theres loads more and i'm sure theres an internet guide around and about to help you save space

2009-03-09 18:03:00 Author: Asbestos101 Posts: 1114

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yeah... you can look at my level.. but seriously ill leave it up to you to decide.

2009-03-10 07:02:00 Author: graygoose Posts: 371

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^ ^ ^ I was just thinking, is it possible to make a level that is as good and as long as the story missions without filling up your thermometer? Because all the long levels I make end up not having as much detail and all the good looking levels I make end up being quite short. Since it's actual people that made the MM levels, the answer to you question automatically "yes". .

2009-03-11 22:33:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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one reason they seem longer is you spent time lookng for all the prize bubbles, becuase that added to your future gaming experiance as a creator (materials and stickers) and as a player (costumes). but when you play a user created level you could careless if you found all the secrets in the level

2009-03-11 22:53:00 Author: deboerdave Posts: 384

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To the original questio- Of course you can make levels that good and even better, Haven't you seen X-NOBODY-X's levels? almost all of them are really good(except for the first ones) so its just about knowing how to fit evrything into the level

2009-03-13 17:03:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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YES! Everybody here proved it!

2009-07-22 04:54:00 Author: Chump Posts: 1712

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YES! Everybody here proved it! This thread is over 4 months old - please actually check the post date before replying next time.

2009-07-22 05:46:00 Author: ConfusedCartman Posts: 3729

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