Archive: 31 posts

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Ok, in this thread I'm looking for "Feedback on Feedback". Just as a discaimer, this is TOTALLY my opinion. I am not a feedback expert, nor do I claim to be an incredibly intelligent person. But in reading the "showcase" threads, some things occurred to me. Level design is an artform. Art is subjective. People like different styles of gameplay, and LittleBigPlanet lets people create what THEY enjoy. This thread is about being a good "feedback" provider, as well as being a good recipient. Check out the following illustration: Let's say you are giving feedback to Leonardo DaVinci on the Mona Lisa. OBJECTIVE feeback: Beautiful brushstrokes, fantastic background and attention to detail. Great technicue. SUBJECTIVE feedback: The girl looks a little manly.... I certainly wouldn'd date her... Her nose is a little big for my taste... She's got a pretty smile though! See where I'm going with this? How do you think DaVinci would react? One of the things we need to keep in mind when providing feedback is the FEELINGS of the author when we are giving our subjective opinions. Someone just created what they consider a work of art. They have a specific IDEA they're trying to convey. Delivering good feedback means that sometimes we put our own creative feelings aside and concentrate on what the author is trying to create, and consider whether they succeed. For instance, do they have game-breaking mechanics? Is it difficult to figure out what to do next because something confused you? Does the camera point in a direction that makes gameplay difficult? These are things the author needs to know in order to prevent frustrated players. Whether they have too much text, whether you didn't like the lighting, whether you didn't like the way they drew a statue, or you just don't like the style of gameplay: sometimes this is good (if you are familiar enough with the person to know the way they will take the feedback OR if you are an absolute expert in that area), but generally this is completely subjective and is beyond the scope of what an author will appreciate (such as telling DaVinci you wouldn't date the Mona Lisa). Another thing to keep in mind, especially with F4F (this is totally my opinion, again): Authors are only looking for CRITICAL feedback for so long. If a level has been on the showcase for a month and all issues have been dealt with, I'm not sure it's appropriate at that point to say "hey, here's what's wrong with your level... now look at mine!". However, it's ALWAYS welcome to keep telling an author how much you enjoyed their creations! What do you think?

2009-02-05 17:00:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Good points all around. I completely agree that art is subjective. To be critically objective is where most critics fail. Thankfully, I learned how to be more objective in my criticism in art school and it's carried on into my professional life in every way. Great post.

2009-02-05 18:29:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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I almost posted something very similar yesterday, after I logged on to find the following comment on my "idol" level. "Pretty good. I didn't like how you could see the switches and the music didn't fit the level" Um, WTF? Why even bother commenting. It's not constructive and completely objective. I've had people comment that they liked the fact that I don't hide all of my switches because it's instructional and maintains the look of the story levels. Others have commented that the level has a light hearted feel, which I assumed was achieved by my choice of music score. But I guess not everyone appreciates an artist's personal style or taste. They would rather be catered to as if they were the only audience in the littlebigworld.

2009-02-05 18:51:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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Absolutely. Exactly why I created this thread. Sometimes people haven't learned HOW to be objective. I've actually been very fortunate. On my game threads people have more or less left negativity out of it. But I've lately seen some threads where people are getting relentless in pushing their artistic opinion on the creator, EVEN after the creator says pretty much "I'm listening to you, but I just LIKE it this way." At that point it's time to ask yourself: "Did I enjoy the game? Was it fun? Does it matter if the author curtails to me, or has he(or she) done enough in giving me a nice little experience?" Now, keep in mind - I understand that on the popular titles (especially really artistic, complex ones) the author is going to be bombarded with a bunch of votes to change things. I think in these cases it's probably best for the author to just think "you know, they care about my game. If I don't plan on changing it maybe I should just give them a nod of respect and move on." We don't want to see the person providing feedback to be frustrated either.

2009-02-05 19:33:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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At the same time, though, authors can learn that people giving feedback don't always know how to do appropriately, and can develop a skill for knowing what is useful and what can be safely ignored. It's definitely an important skill for me, because I often do things out of the ordinary. Many times people don't understand that and give feedback that isn't appropriate, but occasionally something that looks like I would want to ignore it is actually really useful information.

2009-02-05 20:33:00 Author: Risen Posts: 251

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Excelling point - learning to be a good recipient to feedback and not being hardheaded. And you're right - some people mean well but they just don't know how to convey it. Or they haven't considered what the author is trying to create. How ya doin' man? Haven't typed at you for a while.

2009-02-05 20:37:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Honestly... sometimes scrutiny can push you to perfect yourself, but other times it can push you to conform and lose your identity and style. If someone points something out or suggests something that you agree with and can implement, then that's great. If someone's asking you to do the impossible or basically change your entire project into something completely different then just write it off. You can't please everybody all the time, and you should be making levels that you like, first and foremost. Only after the fact, are you to then meet feasible, agreeable, and logical expectations such as polish and technical quality. At some point too, you also have to be aware of your strengths and weaknesses... if you can't draw, or have no sense of proportion and anatomy, then don't try to etch out character shapes. If you have no sense of architecture and symmetry then don't tailor your creations to buildings and indoor environments - try caves, or organic areas where things can benefit from being much less perfect. If you can't build complex machines, then don't. If you can't tell a story, don't fill up the level with magic mouths. If you can't make a good platforming section that's fun and playable, focus more on action or puzzles or enemies - whatever it is you excel at. This way, whatever you produce is something that you can be sure is remarkable for what it is, and not unremarkable for what it tries to be. With this creative ideal in mind, you can put your best foot forward - the audience will either like what you're good at and what you've delivered, or wish it was something else... not for a lack of quality, but simply because it's not what they like. If you've made a puzzle-oriented level, and you're good at it, people who love puzzles will eat it up... others might respond with "you should put more enemies in the level, and some more point bubbles" - this makes the comment easy to dismiss. Another comment might be "I think you could tighten this part up by making it a little less obvious, or adding a light here" - this is something you could and should take into account, and if you agree, proceed to implement the change as needed. MM is a team of people... if one person has no sense of artistry, another does... and if one person has no mechanical skill, the other does. You're just one person, and not one user created level has shown perfection in every single category. Some just excel so much in what they provide that a person forgets to demand more. If you look at a level like Little Dead Space, you could say the enemy designs are simplistic... who cares? If you look at H.A.T.E. you could say it's empty and blocky... that's not the point. If you look at Sackboy's Inferno 2 you could say it's repetitive... and completely ignore the quality and ingenuity of the design. Some critiques are just a waste of words.

2009-02-05 21:21:00 Author: Unknown User

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Man, I was just going to post something here, but it seems Ninja summed it up pretty good! Well, in that case, I guess all I can say is: I agree!

2009-02-05 21:47:00 Author: Dimo1138 Posts: 179

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This thread has a lot of good things goind for it and is heading in a very positive direction. The general scope of things here is be courteous with your feedback. When I'm writing feedback, I try to be as object as I can be without being insulting. Giving feedback is important. People like to know what they can improve and what they did well. As mentioned before and in other places, Cons are important, but so are Pros... if not more important. Saying what wasn't good helps the author recognize what needs work. Saying what was good gives the author motivation to actually fix the broken stuff. When I post nearly anything there are two things I do. One is read over the post to ensure that I'm delivering my message as clearly as I can. Two, I read my post from a perspective that I have no idea what I'm talking about and see if it's clear and respectful. If I can meet these two criteria I deem my post worthy enough to be public. If it doesn't then I work on it until it is, or just don't post it. Additionally, I always try to add something to the conversation. The most important thing I'm trying to say here, is try and read your feedback as if it were being given to you. How would you feel? Deliver is everything. "Man, I could never date that Mona Lisa lady... but I can see how someone else would"

2009-02-05 22:08:00 Author: Inspectigater Posts: 126

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At some point too, you also have to be aware of your strengths and weaknesses... if you can't draw, or have no sense of proportion and anatomy, then don't try to etch out character shapes. If you have no sense of architecture and symmetry then don't tailor your creations to buildings and indoor environments - try caves, or organic areas where things can benefit from being much less perfect. If you can't build complex machines, then don't. If you can't tell a story, don't fill up the level with magic mouths. If you can't make a good platforming section that's fun and playable, focus more on action or puzzles or enemies - whatever it is you excel at. Some critiques are just a waste of words. DING DING DING DING DING!!! WE HAVE A WINNER FOLKS! Seriously... man, spot on! Ninja's got some mad wordy skills! I like the way you talk.

2009-02-05 22:39:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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Definately getting some people here who are getting what I was saying - when you're giving feedback, try to see where the author is going and help him get there. It's not about you and the type of game you'd like to build - it's about helping the author reach his/her goal. Lately I've seen a lot of feedback that is designed to help conform the level to the person giving feedback... if someone wants to make their level wordy... well.. that's their goal. If you can think of a way to leave it wordy but better designed to be wordy, then great.

2009-02-05 23:01:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Great thread CCubbage, its true what your saying, an author wants to hear what's good not whats bad, some people think an author whats to know everything thats "wrong" so it can be changed so everyone likes it. If an author has entered a level for review surely they're happy with it, the only wrong things an author want to know are glitches and little things he or she may have missed.

2009-02-05 23:36:00 Author: Samson107 Posts: 83

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SUBJECTIVE feedback: The girl looks a little manly.... I certainly wouldn'd date her... Her nose is a little big for my taste... She's got a pretty smile though! lol xD But sometimes you have to be harsh to be fair, i mean it's the best way of getting your point across, if someone said This bit was horrible and it needs fixing, then i would say thank you I'll change it asap. But saying the whole level was crap and a waste of time then that's bad >.>

2009-02-05 23:50:00 Author: Thee-Flash Posts: 3154

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Bummer about your PS3 man! Our job as critics is to help the level reach it's potential, but not necessarily change the SPIRIT of the game. In other words, in the case with the Mona Lisa - Leonardo DaVinci has the right to decide for himself the kind of painting he wants to draw, and it is up to the critic to judge it based on the merits of the painting and the skill of the painter. People later will certainly judge for themselves whether they LIKE that particular style of painting, which is more of a subjective decision. So, I (and many other people) believe the Mona Lisa is one of the greatest paintings ever accomplished. Do I think she's attractive? Not really. Now, to an actual situation: Let's take the level Operation 107 for instance (Samson107, I hope you don't mind). It was really easy to see by playing this level the intent of the author: to make a fun, addictive, pretty shooter that was mainly based on gaining points by getting through quickly. It was pretty obvious that he didn't WANT danger in the game because that was not the kind of game he was creating. However, people were being critical of the LACK of danger, and suggesting the level needed danger. Now, would it make the level more fun for that person? Sure. Would it make the level more fun for me and my 6-year-old who are already having fun playing it? No... would probably make him cry. So, I judge based on the merits and authors intent: I absolutely love the game and keep it on my permenant list for myself, my son, and his friends to play at the same time. Do I think Samson107 should take the technology and make a kick-butt game with bombs and stuff? Heck yeah! It's difficult sometimes to know where the line is between helping the author to mature a level and being judgemental. That's why I made this thread... hopefully we can all get better at it.

2009-02-06 02:56:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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While making feedback, the most important feedback is the objective, constructive crititsism. This has been said enough before, not going to go over that again. Subjective critisism is, in my opinion (lol subjective ) also valuable. A creator should know for what target audiences his creation is suitable and he himself can then compare with his intentions and maybe change something or decide that the tester was not his target audience. Example: Creator makes a easy level, to make it enjoyable for everyone and their mother. Tester from this forum sais it's too easy. The creator can than think: is the tester everyone and their mother. He will most likely come to the conclusion that the tester is most likely a hardened gamer, and thus he won't change his level. His profit in this is still that the creator knows what level of challenge his level is. This can also be the other way round. If a creator designs something for the people of this forum enjoy and he has multiple reactions that a puzzle takes to long to solve, he might be wise to draw some conclusions from that. All in all I think you certainly should give subjective critisism BUT make it clear that it IS subjective critisism. The creator himself offcourse should filter comments to compensate for the target audience. It might be best if the creator responds on his own thread to clarify his intentions. Hope this makes sense.

2009-02-06 09:51:00 Author: Wyth Posts: 263

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Well said. It does help. One of the things I was trying to do with this thread is figure out how you can walk that fine line of giving good feedback the author needs to hear without them feeling like they're being stepped on. So far, here's a short list of things I think can help when giving feedback: 1. Pay attention to the original date of the thread. If it's an old level, chances are the author has moved on to their next masterpiece and really won't appreciate critisism (unless of course, they never had any initial feedback). Authors do enjoy later feedback that says things like "Hey, I just tried this and it's GREAT. Just wanted to let you know" 2. If your post is going to contain critisism, go back and read the thread - don't just pop to the end and start typing. One thing that can be irritating as an author is when you have already taken the critisism and discussed it and the subject won't die. 3. As Wyth said, try to season your subjective information with salt. For instance, "You know it would be cool if...." or "You know, something occurred to me...". Here's a list of things to keep in mind when accepting critisism: 1. If people take the time to write out a message, even if it contains feedback you disagree with, they are trying to be helpful (except in extreme cases where it is obvious they are being a jerk). Maybe they're just not good at expressing themselves very well, or had bad parents. 2. Nobody is forcing you to reply to a critisism that you feel is not helping you. If it is easier, simply reply back something like "Thanks for your feedback". This prevents an argument in your thread that is not constructive.

2009-02-06 12:08:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Well said. It does help. One of the things I was trying to do with this thread is figure out how you can walk that fine line of giving good feedback the author needs to hear without them feeling like they're being stepped on. So far, here's a short list of things I think can help when giving feedback: 1. Pay attention to the original date of the thread. If it's an old level, chances are the author has moved on to their next masterpiece and really won't appreciate critisism (unless of course, they never had any initial feedback). Authors do enjoy later feedback that says things like "Hey, I just tried this and it's GREAT. Just wanted to let you know" 2. If your post is going to contain critisism, go back and read the thread - don't just pop to the end and start typing. One thing that can be irritating as an author is when you have already taken the critisism and discussed it and the subject won't die. 3. As Wyth said, try to season your subjective information with salt. For instance, "You know it would be cool if...." or "You know, something occurred to me...". Here's a list of things to keep in mind when accepting critisism: 1. If people take the time to write out a message, even if it contains feedback you disagree with, they are trying to be helpful (except in extreme cases where it is obvious they are being a jerk). Maybe they're just not good at expressing themselves very well, or had bad parents. 2. Nobody is forcing you to reply to a critisism that you feel is not helping you. If it is easier, simply reply back something like "Thanks for your feedback". This prevents an argument in your thread that is not constructive. ...Perfect

2009-02-06 13:24:00 Author: Samson107 Posts: 83

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Facts are better than opinion when you are speaking objectively. This also allows the author to solve their own problems, which makes them a better creator. You don't have to solve the problems for them. (Of course, they might just ask for help in how to solve a problem.) For example: "I kept getting knocked off the platform by those flying fish." might be a better approach than "Those fish are annoying, take them out." This doesn't work for all types of criticism, but it does go a long way.

2009-02-06 16:42:00 Author: Risen Posts: 251

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Nobody is forcing you to reply to a critisism that you feel is not helping you. If it is easier, simply reply back something like "Thanks for your feedback". This prevents an argument in your thread that is not constructive. I had an extremely long reply written out for this thread and then a co-worker closed the window on accident when I stepped away from the computer. Basically, this quote here is what I was going to add and it sums up what I was saying, quite nicely. All I'm saying is that there are good critics and bad critics. Some people like to see reviews from People magazine and some people like to see reviews from Ebert & Roeper. What creators have to keep in mind is that when you put your level up on the chopping block, you are putting it out there for every single Tom, ****, and Harry to give their feedback on what they think of it. You have to take what everyone says with a grain of salt because the majority of people that critique your level are going to take their personal tastes into BIG consideration instead of trying to see where the creator is coming from. The only thing that people should really take into heavy consideration is technical things wrong with their level, like things preventing players from finishing the level. People are going to say what they're going to say and if you don't say "Thank you for your feedback" and you berate them for giving your level feedback, others will be afraid to give you level feedback or may even be turned off from even trying it. I can't believe I just made a post critiquing a critic that's critiquing other critics that are critquiing people's levels.

2009-02-06 18:26:00 Author: Comatoes Posts: 76

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I can't believe I just made a post critiquing a critic that's critiquing other critics that are critquiing people's levels. This is the greatest thing I've read since joining.

2009-02-06 19:00:00 Author: Dimo1138 Posts: 179

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I had an extremely long reply written out for this thread and then a co-worker closed the window on accident when I stepped away from the computer. Basically, this quote here is what I was going to add and it sums up what I was saying, quite nicely. All I'm saying is that there are good critics and bad critics. Some people like to see reviews from People magazine and some people like to see reviews from Ebert & Roeper. What creators have to keep in mind is that when you put your level up on the chopping block, you are putting it out there for every single Tom, ****, and Harry to give their feedback on what they think of it. You have to take what everyone says with a grain of salt because the majority of people that critique your level are going to take their personal tastes into BIG consideration instead of trying to see where the creator is coming from. The only thing that people should really take into heavy consideration is technical things wrong with their level, like things preventing players from finishing the level. People are going to say what they're going to say and if you don't say "Thank you for your feedback" and you berate them for giving your level feedback, others will be afraid to give you level feedback or may even be turned off from even trying it. I can't believe I just made a post critiquing a critic that's critiquing other critics that are critquiing people's levels. Not to be critical but...... I totally totally totally agree...... but, this thread isn't about being an author who just accepts that critics are critical and are there to critique and sometimes those critics don't know how to critique well. It's about learning to be a BETTER critic - as well as being a better recipient of critisism (which is what you are getting at). Some people are bad at math also, and I can accept that there are people who are bad at math - but if I were in a math class I would hope the goal was to learn math rather than just forming a bad-at-math support group.

2009-02-06 19:54:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Take music levels for example... if you don't like this song, you're not going to enjoy it. Would you really expect the person to change it to another song? Is it even logical to rate the level based on the song itself, instead of the presentation, the mechanics or the quality of the rendition? I can't even count how many times I'll take someone to a level that I really enjoyed, and they just don't get it and can't enjoy it... I've noticed for the most part, it's levels that are a little slower, have a little more text, or are full of puzzles - or just offbeat, weird, or homages/recreations of a movie/book/game that the other person never experienced. Everyone's got a favorite movie, that's probably independent or niche that no one else gets... it's one you just watch by yourself, but when you're with friends it's time to watch Cheech and Chong. Is Cheech and Chong really a better movie than the profound and abstract foreign film you were watching the other day? How people approach a level in this game, and how they view LBP greatly factors into their perception of a level... and you have to remember that games in general have a long way to go before people go into it with the same mindset that they do literature, film, music and visual art. Also remember, that no matter how far the medium takes itself, there's always people that will not enjoy anything other comedy and action flicks. As creators, you have to realize that your audience is vastly different from yourself and is usually looking for nothing more than a good time. If your main concern is play count then build for the audience... if your intent is to express yourself, and create your own vision, then build for yourself and nobody else and then toss it into the waves in hopes that the right person finds it.

2009-02-06 20:16:00 Author: Unknown User

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When I was growing up, I was quite a critical and negative person. Someone once said to me that I'm not a pessimist, I'm actually a realist. That was a good piece of advice for me. Another helpful piece of advice was to give two pieces of positive feedback before giving one negative one. If you just list all the bad points, people tend to not like you, no matter how true your statements are. It's been a long time since I've followed that rule to the letter, but it helped iron out some of the blunter parts of my personality. So that's how I try and go about giving feedback. I'll make sure I always try and give positive encouragement to the author if I can, and just focus on technical points while I review. If you come across in a positive way, people are far more willing to listen to any suggestions or ideas that you have to help them to improve.

2009-02-07 14:19:00 Author: Elbee23 Posts: 1280

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Exactly - and it can help to read other people's reviews that were able to tactfully give critisism and the author was encouraged to continue creating and better their work instead of being decimated. This can help better the community instead of frustrating authors.

2009-02-07 15:54:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Great thread Ccubbage. I believe when giving feedback one needs to focus on helping improve a level from a technical standpoint (making a puzzle more efficient, proposing solutions to encountered bugs etc) and by suggesting ways to add visual polish (making switches invisible, coloring checkpoints, adding lighting etc). In other words, you should NEVER give feedback/criticism that goes against the author's vision and core design aesthetic (and many people do which is a problem). There are certain things that an author does that are obviously intentional and part of their design philosophy. Most of the time these are not things that can be "improved" upon and suggesting changes in this regard really won't help the level become "better" which should be the ultimate goal when giving feedback.

2009-02-09 00:40:00 Author: OCK Posts: 1536

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Some people are bad at math also, and I can accept that there are people who are bad at math - but if I were in a math class I would hope the goal was to learn math rather than just forming a bad-at-math support group. Haha, that's hilarious. But you bring up a point about being in a class. There are many different ways to leave feedback: a comment on the level, a post in a related thread, a message to the author. If you don't already know that the author WANTS to improve, you might want to consider how much feedback you are giving and how critical it is. Based on the response you can start to get a feel of how much that person is receptive and provide additional feedback. There are a number of people I am comfortable enough with now to just provide unsolicited critical feedback on new work they might bring forward... and because we have a working relationship of sorts, those people appreciate that I do.

2009-02-09 17:29:00 Author: Risen Posts: 251

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Haha, that's hilarious. But you bring up a point about being in a class. There are many different ways to leave feedback: a comment on the level, a post in a related thread, a message to the author. If you don't already know that the author WANTS to improve, you might want to consider how much feedback you are giving and how critical it is. Based on the response you can start to get a feel of how much that person is receptive and provide additional feedback. There are a number of people I am comfortable enough with now to just provide unsolicited critical feedback on new work they might bring forward... and because we have a working relationship of sorts, those people appreciate that I do. Absolutely. I made a comment in the great big "wall" of text at the beginning of this thread that the candidness of subjective critisism is really based on your familiarity with the author - if they know you well, you can certainly be more candid about their visual style, their writing, or even whether you felt major parts of the level should change. Generally if you don't know the author very well (along with OCK's message above yours) it's best to stay within a confined area of feedback - did it work, were you confused, were there spelling errors.... if you start mixing these things with a wall of subjective information they may not be receptive to you. Of course, level creators also need to remember that people leave a lot of feedback because they LIKE your creation and want it to be better. So, take it as a compliment that people are giving you feedback.

2009-02-09 18:06:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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There are some smart cookies in this forum. I hear what your saying Wyth, and I also think subjective critisism can be helpful if written correctly. I feel that 99% of feedback is helpful, and that any feedback is better than none at all. When I give a review, I try to give at least one positive comment for every negative one.

2009-02-10 11:39:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

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There are some smart cookies in this forum. I hear what your saying Wyth, and I also think subjective critisism can be helpful if written correctly. I feel that 99% of feedback is helpful, and that any feedback is better than none at all. When I give a review, I try to give at least one positive comment for every negative one. If you want to know some GREAT techniques for providing subjective criticism, definately check out some of Wyth's replies to new members on the showcase - very courteous and makes them FEEL like creating.

2009-02-10 15:12:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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HEHE, feedback on feedback, HEHE.

2009-02-10 21:28:00 Author: mongoose7 Posts: 473

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Cool idea, eh?

2009-02-11 04:05:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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