Archive: 28 posts

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Here I will share my knowledge and experience on getting a bipedal creation to walk. I don't claim this as a guide nor as the only method of attaining this goal. Don't be afraid to experiment for yourself. So without further ado... These are the parts you will need to get started. You will need two of every object except the hip. http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/Jirugameshi/LBP%20Bipedal%20Motion/leg1.jpg HIP : A block of material that sits in the middle layer. The legs will be attached to this piece. UPPER LEG : A long piece of material. The upper leg will be attached to the hip using a wobble bolt. KNEE : A thin, small piece of material. The knee will be attached to the upper leg using a bolt (either a regular bolt or wobble bolt depending on the motion type, this will be discussed below). LOWER LEG : Another long piece of material. The lower leg will be glued to the knee. ANKLE : Another thin, small piece of material. The ankle will be attached to the lower leg using a sprung bolt. FOOT : A horizontal, flat piece of material. The foot will be glued to the ankle. You should place all of the parts together (without attaching anything yet) and capture the whole set. This will give you your set of objects in your popit which you can use if you need to start over for any reason (detaching every piece would be needlessly tedious). You can either have a regular leg with a forward knee or a "reverse joint" leg (like birds). Neither type is more complex than the other, and both use the same principles, so the choice is yours on which one to use. You can already glue the foot to the ankle and the lower leg to the knee. There are two ways to attach the knee and lower leg to the upper leg. You can simply place a wobble bolt at the knee, or you can place a regular bolt at the knee and connect the middle of the lower leg and upper leg with a piston. If using a piston, the leg will never be able to become straight, while using a wobble bolt you can do so. Otherwise both methods behave essentially the same way. http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/Jirugameshi/LBP%20Bipedal%20Motion/leg2.jpg The ankle is fairly straightforward to place, just attach it to the lower leg using a sprung bolt. You should leave enough room for the foot to swing back and forth. Adjust the strength of the bolt so that the foot has a tendency to lay flat on the ground when pressed, but not wobble about at the slightest bump. You should have both leg assemblies completely attached now, so all that's left is to hook everything up to the hip. Attach the leg on the back layer first by placing the wobble bolt on the hip. Then attach the leg on the front layer by placing the wobble bolt on the upper leg (if the bolt refuses to be placed, simply move it a little to the left or right. Make sure that both wobble bolts can be tweaked. You can use the corner editor to allow you to see the bolt underneath the frontmost leg. You should only need to see a hint of it to be able to tweak it. Now to adjust the walking motion. It's easier to do if you change your hip material to Dark Matter and hang the whole assembly in the air. It also helps to go in Flat View instead of Game View. The first thing to do is to tweak the wobble bolts for both upper legs so that they swing from left to right at the same speed, but in opposite direction. You can do this simply by putting the same time setting and playing around with the Sync setting. Then you need to adjust either the piston or wobble bolt for the lower leg. What you want is for the feet to make a kind of circular motion. This is accomplished by having the leg perform the following sequence of movements : 1 - Upper leg moves forward. 2 - Lower leg moves down. 3 - Upper leg moves backward. 4 - Lower leg moves up. http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j294/Jirugameshi/LBP%20Bipedal%20Motion/leg3.jpg To do this, I suggest that the lower leg's wobble bolt or piston should move faster than the upper leg's wobble bolt. You'll need to add a pause delay in order to make the lower leg's entire motion time match with the upper leg's. Then you'll need to play with the Sync setting to make the lower leg move down when the upper leg reaches its most forward position. If done correctly, you can hit Play and watch the feet to see if they're moving in a circle-like motion. Each foot should be at their lowest when both upper legs are at the same position. If not, simply rewind and continue tweaking. Don't be surprised if it takes a while to get it right. UPDATE : For an easier solution to setting up the motion, I've devised a motion synchronizer here : https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=t=11977 That should be all you need to get a proper motion going. You can put whatever you want on top of the hip and handle equilibrium in any way you see fit. I hope this helps some of you who have been trying to get leg motions to work. I wrote this for experienced creators, so I left out a lot of minor things you need to adjust such as the angle on the wobble bolts and length on the pistons. Still, if you see any problem with what I wrote or something isn't easy enough to understand, don't be afraid to point it out and I'll try to fix it up. FOLLOW UP : https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=p=139783

2009-01-30 17:58:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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Great tips, Gil. I've already drawn out some bipedal legs, hopefully this will give me tips on how to make them work.

2009-01-30 18:15:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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You wanted to put a diagram, I would be curious about some small video if you can do that. You know, just your creature walking or something. .

2009-01-30 18:22:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Great stuff... I tried somthing (not quite as complex) before and after two days of the worst walking/falling Ive ever seen, I gave up... I will try this!

2009-01-30 18:30:00 Author: Madafaku Posts: 738

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Good stuff, but needs pictures or a video. I actually did this for my horse but i kept the legs purely as decoration so i can control the movement more dynamically. essentially a thick layer body, with four legs bolted on, and the leg motion using invisible pistons. I found that the pistons can fully extend the joint without problems.

2009-01-30 18:42:00 Author: accordion Posts: 76

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Something that's worth considering is that depending on how "straight" the legs become, the smaller their center of gravity will be. If you have a lot of weight in the front or back of whatever is above the legs, it might fall over if it's standing too straight and has too much mass one way or the other. That's why your mech works, Gilgamesh, with it's bird hip and not too straight a standing position, it has a wide and low center of gravity and can have more mass on the upper body further forwards or backwards than the same thing standing dead upright. Having larger "feet" would also help improve balancing issues as well. A higher weight "feet" and "leg" material would also help in terms of center of gravity. Basicly the lower and more centered your mass is, the easier it is to balance. All that I just said was theoretical, I have not built a bipedal walker yet. But from what I've seen with gravity, balancing and center of gravity in LBP, it makes sense to me.

2009-01-31 05:19:00 Author: Elbee23 Posts: 1280

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[...]That's why your mech works, Gilgamesh, with it's bird hip and not too straight a standing position, it has a wide and low center of gravity and can have more mass on the upper body further forwards or backwards than the same thing standing dead upright. Having larger "feet" would also help improve balancing issues as well. A higher weight "feet" and "leg" material would also help in terms of center of gravity. Basicly the lower and more centered your mass is, the easier it is to balance. All that I just said was theoretical, I have not built a bipedal walker yet. But from what I've seen with gravity, balancing and center of gravity in LBP, it makes sense to me. Those are all some valid point, but l haven't really touched on balancing in this thread. That's a much more complex and unforgiving beast. That being said, I'm sorry to say that you've been expertly fooled by my mech's hidden balancing mechanism. Without it, I would never have been able to get the jump jets to work without flipping the mech in all directions. I do suggest that the foot be made of metal or stone when possible, while the rest of the contraption should stick to lighter materials. EDIT: I've added some diagrams to the three steps, hopefully this makes things a bit more visual and easy to understand.

2009-01-31 14:25:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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Here I will share my knowledge and experience on getting a bipedal creation to walk. I don't claim this as a guide nor as the only method of attaining this goal. Don't be afraid to experiment for yourself. So without further ado... These are the parts you will need to get started. You will need two of every object except the hip. http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5600/leg1uv0.th.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=leg1uv0.jpg) HIP : A block of material that sits in the middle layer. The legs will be attached to this piece. UPPER LEG : A long piece of material. The upper leg will be attached to the hip using a wobble bolt. KNEE : A thin, small piece of material. The knee will be attached to the upper leg using a bolt (either a regular bolt or wobble bolt depending on the motion type, this will be discussed below). LOWER LEG : Another long piece of material. The lower leg will be glued to the knee. ANKLE : Another thin, small piece of material. The ankle will be attached to the lower leg using a sprung bolt. FOOT : A horizontal, flat piece of material. The foot will be glued to the ankle. You should place all of the parts together (without attaching anything yet) and capture the whole set. This will give you your set of objects in your popit which you can use if you need to start over for any reason (detaching every piece would be needlessly tedious). You can either have a regular leg with a forward knee or a "reverse joint" leg (like birds). Neither type is more complex than the other, and both use the same principles, so the choice is yours on which one to use. You can already glue the foot to the ankle and the lower leg to the knee. There are two ways to attach the knee and lower leg to the upper leg. You can simply place a wobble bolt at the knee, or you can place a regular bolt at the knee and connect the middle of the lower leg and upper leg with a piston. If using a piston, the leg will never be able to become straight, while using a wobble bolt you can do so. Otherwise both methods behave essentially the same way. http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/9067/leg2fh9.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=leg2fh9.jpg) The ankle is fairly straightforward to place, just attach it to the lower leg using a sprung bolt. You should leave enough room for the foot to swing back and forth. Adjust the strength of the bolt so that the foot has a tendency to lay flat on the ground when pressed, but not wobble about at the slightest bump. You should have both leg assemblies completely attached now, so all that's left is to hook everything up to the hip. Attach the leg on the back layer first by placing the wobble bolt on the hip. Then attach the leg on the front layer by placing the wobble bolt on the upper leg (if the bolt refuses to be placed, simply move it a little to the left or right. Make sure that both wobble bolts can be tweaked. You can use the corner editor to allow you to see the bolt underneath the frontmost leg. You should only need to see a hint of it to be able to tweak it. Now to adjust the walking motion. It's easier to do if you change your hip material to Dark Matter and hang the whole assembly in the air. It also helps to go in Flat View instead of Game View. The first thing to do is to tweak the wobble bolts for both upper legs so that they swing from left to right at the same speed, but in opposite direction. You can do this simply by putting the same time setting and playing around with the Sync setting. Then you need to adjust either the piston or wobble bolt for the lower leg. What you want is for the feet to make a kind of circular motion. This is accomplished by having the leg perform the following sequence of movements : 1 - Upper leg moves forward. 2 - Lower leg moves down. 3 - Upper leg moves backward. 4 - Lower leg moves up. http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9943/leg3pf3.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=leg3pf3.jpg) To do this, I suggest that the lower leg's wobble bolt or piston should move faster than the upper leg's wobble bolt. You'll need to add a pause delay in order to make the lower leg's entire motion time match with the upper leg's. Then you'll need to play with the Sync setting to make the lower leg move down when the upper leg reaches its most forward position. If done correctly, you can hit Play and watch the feet to see if they're moving in a circle-like motion. Each foot should be at their lowest when both upper legs are at the same position. If not, simply rewind and continue tweaking. Don't be surprised if it takes a while to get it right. That should be all you need to get a proper motion going. You can put whatever you want on top of the hip and handle equilibrium in any way you see fit. I hope this helps some of you who have been trying to get leg motions to work. I wrote this for experienced creators, so I left out a lot of minor things you need to adjust such as the angle on the wobble bolts and length on the pistons. Still, if you see any problem with what I wrote or something isn't easy enough to understand, don't be afraid to point it out and I'll try to fix it up. I'm also going to try to add some diagrams when I get to a more decent computer to make things a little clearer. Thanks now i can do the walking AT-ST I was thinking of but it would be easier to follow if the pics were a little bigger but i can figure it out anyway this was just confirming my suspicions about walking.

2009-02-01 05:15:00 Author: The Comedian Posts: 113

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Thanks now i can do the walking AT-ST I was thinking of but it would be easier to follow if the pics were a little bigger but i can figure it out anyway this was just confirming my suspicions about walking. You can click on the image, and it will open up a larger version through imageshacks webpage. But why are you using Imageshack, Gilgamesh? Why not Photobucket? Photobucket does not give those bad pop ups that Imageshack does.

2009-02-01 11:19:00 Author: Elbee23 Posts: 1280

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You can click on the image, and it will open up a larger version through imageshacks webpage. But why are you using Imageshack, Gilgamesh? Why not Photobucket? Photobucket does not give those bad pop ups that Imageshack does. Hmmm, I didn't know Imageshack had pop ups. I've uploaded the images to my photobucket account (which I keep forgetting I have). I was mildly annoyed that clicking the image didn't link directly to the large version anyway.

2009-02-02 11:08:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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Hm, good read. It does indeed not open up on making something correctly walk without falling over, which is a topic on itself. If you make the center of gravity low enough it should be doable though. The sync setting will probably **** out if you want to activate the mech with some other sansour though... You can make your own timers though to tackle that problem. Or is the sync thing fixed in a patch that I am unaware of?

2009-02-02 14:47:00 Author: Wyth Posts: 263

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Hm, good read. It does indeed not open up on making something correctly walk without falling over, which is a topic on itself. If you make the center of gravity low enough it should be doable though. The sync setting will probably **** out if you want to activate the mech with some other sansour though... You can make your own timers though to tackle that problem. Or is the sync thing fixed in a patch that I am unaware of? From what I can tell, pistons, emitters and such tend to lose their Sync when any switch is attached to them. It's simply a matter of readjusting the Sync after the switch has been placed on everything and it should work fine. EDIT: Also on the balancing issue, the reason I don't touch on that right now is that I have not experimented with balancing much. I've worked on trying to make a gyro, but ultimately settled on having a hidden rail system, as this was the simplest solution to the problem. I may cover balancing later if I experiment with it again, but that will be another thread entirely anyway.

2009-02-02 15:00:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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The key to bipedal locomotion is simplicity. The first stage is to create a single leg supported from a chunk of dark matter and play with it until the motion of the leg looks right. Rebuild the leg and standardise the design from the original, make a copy of this rebuilt leg and invert the sync between the upper and lower pistons. Connect these two legs up and let it take its first step(s) before it falls over/crushes you/falls apart. If you're having problems it's worth playing with the piston lengths. If it falls over backwards try lengthening the upper two pistons in .5 steps. If it falls over forwards this is a good sign as walking is a state of perpetually rescuing yourself from falling forwards, try lengthening the feet forwards or try decreasing the length of the upper two pistons in .5 steps. Here are a couple of videos I put up on YouTube with some explanation added: YouTube - LBP biped (Type 1) Type 1 used pistons like our muscles in a simple two-joint leg. It's stable across flat surfaces but can't manage any sort of incline as it scuffs it's feet. YouTube - LBP biped (Type 2) Type 2 is essentially the same as the first only it lifts its feet with each step so it can traverse inclines. It's less stable than the first, likely due to the added weight with all the aesthetic fairing. A human leg has ankles that swivel and a flexible foot that helps to propel you forwards, I've found this really difficult to replicate.

2009-03-08 20:16:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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From what I can tell, pistons, emitters and such tend to lose their Sync when any switch is attached to them. This here just caught my eye, skimming through this thread. So I'm not sure what I'm about to say will make any sense. Anyway, I think sync works in relation to a fixed point. The bare co-existence of syncable stuff could put them in such a relation, but I never use it that way. The other way syncable objects can be put in a relation to each other is by the switch they share. For instance: you take two emitters. Then you connect them to the same press button (set to on/off). Next, you put the second emitter out of sync with the first by a second or so. Finally, you go stand on the button. The result will be that the first emitter fires immediately, and the second one a second later. (so the sync function works perfectly with switches) So when you attach the same switch to several previously unattached object that have been synced allready, they don't just lose their sync, but the sync does get another meaning because the point of reference has changed. One thing is for sure; their sync setting won't relate with unattached object (or objects on another switch obviously) any longer. Also note that the sync function doesn't work with switches set to one-shot. Do the emitter test described above and you will see. I haven't tried the sync with directional, so I've nothing to say on that. By the way, nice legs gilgamesh.

2009-03-09 02:49:00 Author: Wonko the Sane Posts: 109

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I think sync works in relation to a fixed point. The bare co-existence of syncable stuff could put them in such a relation, but I never use it that way. The other way syncable objects can be put in a relation to each other is by the switch they share. For instance: you take two emitters. Then you connect them to the same press button (set to on/off). Next, you put the second emitter out of sync with the first by a second or so. Finally, you go stand on the button. The result will be that the first emitter fires immediately, and the second one a second later. (so the sync function works perfectly with switches) So when you attach the same switch to several previously unattached object that have been synced allready, they don't just lose their sync, but the sync does get another meaning because the point of reference has changed. One thing is for sure; their sync setting won't relate with unattached object (or objects on another switch obviously) any longer. Also note that the sync function doesn't work with switches set to one-shot. Do the emitter test described above and you will see. I haven't tried the sync with directional, so I've nothing to say on that. Okay - not to get too far off topic here, but sometimes I read posts like this and can't help but think that a published Users Manual from Mm would be so nice. They promote this game with the idea that we are armed with all the same tools and materials that the original designers had at their disposal. Yeah - everything except the knowledge of how to use it properly. Sorry - rant finished. (And this is by no way meant to infer any opinion on the accuracy of Wonko's post. I really have no idea how to properly use the sync - So thanks Wonk!)

2009-03-09 04:48:00 Author: v0rtex Posts: 1878

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I wouldn't have thought it was possible to make bipedal motion with two sets of pistons. Goes to show you that there's many solutions around the same problem.

2009-03-09 11:29:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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That's very helpful. Especially with clearly drawn pictures that really explains it. Good job!:hero:

2009-03-09 12:28:00 Author: uzman Posts: 209

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I SO want to try this It is cool that you could make this for a lot of different things.

2009-03-09 17:51:00 Author: dobi6 Posts: 359

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i didn't think you could make something bipedal on lbp. i made something that had 4 legs and but it self was unstable so i thought something with only 2 legs would be completely unstable and wouldn't work but this changed my mind. thanks.

2009-03-10 02:55:00 Author: superBlast Posts: 267

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Great stuff... I tried somthing (not quite as complex) before and after two days of the worst walking/falling Ive ever seen, I gave up... I will try this! same here!

2009-03-10 02:59:00 Author: djdexta2k Posts: 9

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Main problem I'm having at the moment is with balance. The solution I've come up with so far is this: http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/Corporeal/47937d9c.png When the biped starts to fall the dial sets off a magnetic key which moves a weight in the opposite direction to keep it upright. What happens in practice though is that it will start to fall forwards, correct itself, then start to fall backwards. It'll get caught in this horrible limbo of constantly falling over and not getting anywhere. There must be a better way that someone can come up with to dynamically balance a bipedal machine! Here's a video of TYPE 3 if it's of interest. YouTube - LBP biped (Type 3)

2009-04-05 17:27:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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Wow, that's cool. Is that a publicly playable level? I must go try it.

2009-04-05 18:12:00 Author: v0rtex Posts: 1878

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Yeah, it's published - a title search for bipedal or an author search for Ayneh should bring it up.

2009-04-05 18:35:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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Okay - not to get too far off topic here, but sometimes I read posts like this and can't help but think that a published Users Manual from Mm would be so nice. They promote this game with the idea that we are armed with all the same tools and materials that the original designers had at their disposal. Yeah - everything except the knowledge of how to use it properly. Sorry - rant finished. (And this is by no way meant to infer any opinion on the accuracy of Wonko's post. I really have no idea how to properly use the sync - So thanks Wonk!) But that's a good thing... it means those of us that can really make the tools do their job will create exceptional levels that will get more attention!

2009-04-05 18:58:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Haha, i see you decided to stop making your level copiable, i also saw that other player with your level published as his.... Srry m8, but i it was bound to happend considering it's such a good creation.

2009-04-10 09:30:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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I can't believe I didn't find this forum until today. I made a biped walker and made a little tutorial on yuotube last night. I was looking into robotics and CG animation for a while. The CG animation that I saw used the physics of walking, but the body was attached and floating - and not restricted by gravity. I put a balloon inside my biped which helped its balance. The robotics that I found involved shifting the weight the legs supported from side to side (this could be done with emitters, but the weight objects would likely be visible). I found the wobble bolts too frustrating, and then I saw AYNEH's TYPE 3 - the pistons idea was brilliant!

2009-05-05 20:48:00 Author: steakmo Posts: 57

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Gilgamesh, this is a fantastic tutorial. I haven't studied Mech Motion in depth yet, but I have reviewed some of the technological applications of bladders being used to replace muscles. The bladders contract and expand based on applied air pressure. An interesting technology indeed, which would be cool to have in Create Mode (I'm dreaming again). I look forward to applying your basic technique to see what I can come up with. Thanks very much for this information. Rick

2009-05-28 03:30:00 Author: RickRock_777 Posts: 1567

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Updated to link the Bipedal Motion Synchronizer, which makes it easier to set up the walking motion. https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=t=11977

2009-05-29 01:26:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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