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A Disturbing Trend.

Archive: 67 posts

Posting this right after the locking of "Hearting your own level?" so people won't accuse me of "beating the dead horse" or "reopening the wound".

About a year ago, there was this thread, in which the OP proposed that no one should make topics complaining about the community anymore. You can find it here: http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-73039.html

Anyway, contained in this thread was probably one of my favorite posts in the history of lbpcentral, written by no other than Ungreth.

Ok....erm...well, I'm just gonna leave this here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_dissent

Anyway, enough about that. Let us now promote a harmonious community by joining together in song...

Союз нерушимый республик свободных
Сплотила навеки Великая Русь.
Да здравствует созданный волей народов
Единый, могучий Советский Союз!

Славься, Отечество наше свободное,
Дружбы народов надёжный оплот!
Знамя Советское, знамя народное
Пусть от победы к победе ведёт!
Сквозь грозы сияло нам солнце свободы,
И Ленин великий нам путь озарил:
Нас вырастил Сталин — на верность народу,
На труд и на подвиги нас вдохновил!

Славься, Отечество наше свободное,
Счастья народов надёжный оплот!
Знамя Советское, знамя народное
Пусть от победы к победе ведёт!
Мы армию нашу растили в сраженьях.
Захватчиков подлых с дороги сметём!
Мы в битвах решаем судьбу поколений,
Мы к славе Отчизну свою поведём!

Славься, Отечество наше свободное,
Славы народов надёжный оплот!
Знамя Советское, знамя народное
Пусть от победы к победе ведёт!

(Not the same song, but the same message pretty much)

And if anyone disagrees, get 'em up against the wall! :kz:

And from this, I go into the main point of this thread: We are not a positive site. We are an anti-negative site.

Almost 2 years ago, I made a thread called Mm picks starting to go downhill. It can be found here: https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=68955-Mm-Picks-starting-to-go-downhill

It was rather controversial. In fact, it was probably one of the most controversial threads to date in lbpcentral. And as a result, many people didn't like it. So much so, in fact, they decided to derail it. A third the thread was mindless drivel, random pictures, one line posts and thanks all around. Mind you, this happened while I was asleep. When I woke up and saw how the thread had been derailed, I tried to fix it, and for the most part it worked. Then Spaff, yes, Spaff himself, derailed it. At this point I gave up, rtm223 convinced me the Mm picks weren't so bad, and I locked (well, it's another rather complex story but the end result was that the thread was locked) the thread.

This was the first time I came upon the disturbing trend on this site-that is, people derailing threads because they didn't like them. Mm picks starting to go downhill was unpleasant, that was true. But was it illegal? Was it destroying us? Was it against the site rules? There were, of course, some cases of less-than-proper conduct, but for the most part people were civil. Going through the thread now, it hardly seems to be what people made it out to be.

So why did people try to derail it?

Because, as I've stated, this isn't a positive site. This is an anti-negative site. We've grown to the point where if there's even a hint of argument people call the mods. If there's a debate, rest assured half the posts will be along the lines of "grow up", "you need to chill out", or, my favorite, "this isn't a big deal". I suppose that if people were directly insulting each other or typing in all caps, then such comments would be needed. But that's hardly the case-in fact, in most arguments on here, there are no direct insults, and no typing in all caps, and it's actually rather civil. Yet, we make it out to be something like the Civil War. People get the idea, people have the idea that debating and arguing is something that needs to be purged from this site. They'll derail threads, make fun of the debaters, and get the mods in to stop this "horrible argument" which was perfectly fine.

I'll bring another thread in here as an example, one that caused me to write this. "Hearting your own level?" https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=81712-Hearting-your-own-level

This turned into a debate, and since that apparently upset people, they tried to derail the thread. However, I knew what was going to happen-that is, it would turn into the same mindless drivel the Mm picks starting to go downhill trudged through. So I messaged a mod, and reported the off-topic posts, expecting that they'd post saying that we should stay on topic or message the derailers telling them to stop. However, much to my surprise, they locked the thread, which was, indeed, exactly what the derailers wanted. I messaged the mod asking them why they did that, and they replied, rather ambiguously, "We didn't like where it was headed," not telling me where it was headed. Did they think it would turn into off-topic drivel, or a crap storm of insults? I don't know. However, I did realize this:

By locking the thread and not just stopping the off-topic posts, the mods are indirectly supporting derailing threads. If a group of people wanted to destroy a thread, all they had to do was derail it, then the mods would lock it. It doesn't matter what the people who were, you know, actually on topic said, all that mattered was that it had arguing in it, and they derailed it. It's a problem with this entire site and its hypersensitivity. The mods don't like it when people argue, but they can't really lock the thread since people are still being civil. However, if the thread is derailed, they can lock it just fine. However, it's also our fault, for being so anti-negative that people can hardly have a debate without their trying to derail it, and, to be honest, most of the blame goes on us.

Debates are not pleasant. In fact, they are inherently unpleasant. But that doesn't mean they are wrong. We should be able to disagree with each other, we should be able to feel strongly about things, and we shouldn't have to constantly work against derailers. People say they derail threads because they think they're too childish, or too mean, or too controversial, but in reality they're really derailing threads because they feel like they should control what people say. Since when did you have a right to destroy a thread because you didn't like it? All of the attitudes, "this thread is too bad, we should lock it", "we should ban that type of thread, it's seen too much", and "this is such a small thing to argue over, so small, in fact, you shouldn't even be allowed to argue over it"; all of them are simply you figuring out that, hey, people can disagree, hey, people have different opinions on things, hey, people can feel strongly about stuff you think is small. Nobody is forcing you to look at the thread, why do you feel that you should have power over how people can and can't say? Why is there this condescension, this pretentiousness, this "I know better than you, let me derail this thread" attitude out there? I think it simply stems out from the lack of respect for other people's beliefs.

Here's a quote summarizing the anti-negative, the wrong attitude at lbpcentral. It was said by xkappax in the thick of one of the pools of spam and drivel in Mm picks starting to go downhill.

This is the goofy, funloving lbpcentral that I knew and loved. I knew it was still in there somewhere.

We need more of this and less of the yelling and fighting about mm picks!

What goofy, funloving lbpcentral. The one that derails threads they don't like? The one that criticizes anything resembling argument? Yep, that one.

Here's a quote summarizing the positive, the right attitude at lbpcentral. It was said by Ungreth, between xkappax derailing the thread and Spaff finishing the job. I think it's appropriate to end with an Ungreth quote if I started with one:

Clearly a topic that has generated 8 pages worth of responses in the last 24 hours is a topic that many people wish to contribute their views to, so why should it be locked? Personally I'm impartial in this debate since I don't really play other people's levels and whatever gets Mm picked it makes little difference to me. I recently played a few; found the Paper World level awesome and wrongly assumed that Lucky Charms was made by a little kid, but I haven't played Mm picks enough to know whether the general quality has fallen or not. However, the OP clearly does care about Mm picks and voiced a genuine concern about what they percieve to be a diminishing standard, so just because you don't agree with their views it doesn't mean that anyone who wishes to discuss the topic should have that right taken away from them. That's called political censorship and we don't need that kind of bullcrap around here.

Amen.

2013-09-22 21:14:00

Author:
Kalawishis

Posts: 928

Well, I really don't think I'm qualified to make an informed decision about what you're talking about. If what you're saying is true, I do agree that stifling debate isn't good. Especially when said debate is on an LBP related topic.

As for the derailing of topics... well, I've found myself to derail some threads (mostly in General Chat, never in the actual LBP areas) because, well, sometimes talking about nothing in particular is fun. There used to be a thread called the Spam Can- and no, jww, this isn't me trying to bring it back, no matter what you think my obsession with that is- where the people could get this kind of silliness out of their system. I don't think it's really relevant in this case, but I just wanted to explain why I often go into that sort of randomness you described.

Otherwise, well, I am not too active in the LBP community really, but I do think that that sort of debate is good. So yeah.

2013-09-22 22:19:00

Author:
RockSauron

Posts: 10882

This was the first time I came upon the disturbing trend on this site-that is, people derailing threads because they didn't like them. Mm picks starting to go downhill was unpleasant, that was true. But was it illegal? Was it destroying us? Was it against the site rules? There were, of course, some cases of less-than-proper conduct, but for the most part people were civil. Going through the thread now, it hardly seems to be what people made it out to be.

So why did people try to derail it?

I think that people are subtly trying to tell you that they think you're being childish or whining too much and that it's time to let it go. You aren't always going to agree with what everyone says and that's fine, but at some point (usually when your posts start to annoy or upset others), you just have to agree to disagree and move on.

I like to think that we aren't an anti-negative site; we try and not delete threads that are controversial when they arise nor support others derailing them, but at the same time this is a community site and we have to weigh the importance of you expressing your displeasure against those threads infringing on other's enjoyment of the site.

2013-09-23 01:11:00

Author:
Chazprime

Posts: 587

Reading through that thread, it does seem a bit like you were a bit too vocal about it, and it seems more like they closed it to prevent a pile up on you than to simply stifle debate.

Again, though, I don't really know what I'm talking about so I'll leave it to you.

2013-09-23 01:14:00

Author:
RockSauron

Posts: 10882

As for the derailing of topics... well, I've found myself to derail some threads (mostly in General Chat, never in the actual LBP areas) because, well, sometimes talking about nothing in particular is fun. There used to be a thread called the Spam Can- and no, jww, this isn't me trying to bring it back, no matter what you think my obsession with that is- where the people could get this kind of silliness out of their system. I don't think it's really relevant in this case, but I just wanted to explain why I often go into that sort of randomness you described.

I know, of course, but it isn't respectful to those who actually want to talk about the topic at hand. Even if the thread is silly. The Spam Can, however, sounded like a good idea.

I think that people are subtly trying to tell you that they think you're being childish or whining too much and that it's time to let it go. You aren't always going to agree with what everyone says and that's fine, but at some point (usually when your posts start to annoy or upset others), you just have to agree to disagree and move on.

I like to think that we aren't an anti-negative site; we try and not delete threads that are controversial when they arise nor support others derailing them, but at the same time this is a community site and we have to weigh the importance of you expressing your displeasure against those threads infringing on other's enjoyment of the site.

If they're trying to say I'm childish, derailing the thread is a very childish way to do so. In fact, extremely childish, as it goes against the site rules.

And I don't see how a controversial thread can hurt someone's enjoyment on the site. They don't have to look at it, and there are plenty of other non-controversial threads to see.

Reading through that thread, it does seem a bit like you were a bit too vocal about it, and it seems more like they closed it to prevent a pile up on you than to simply stifle debate.

There wasn't a point in the thread where I wasn't debating less than two people at the the same time, so that's why I had so many posts in it. And I don't see what's so bad about a pile-up. It's on-topic and relevant, and mostly civil. People are saying what they think.

2013-09-23 01:17:00

Author:
Kalawishis

Posts: 928

If they're trying to say I'm childish, derailing the thread is a very childish way to do so.

Well yeah, that's kind of the point I think.

2013-09-23 01:29:00

Author:
Chazprime

Posts: 587

These threads are nowhere near as controversial as my cellar. ;(

2013-09-23 01:45:00

Author:
Squid2723

Posts: 12

These threads are nowhere near as controversial as my cellar. ;(

Bonner send you?

But seriously, if you're trying to derail this thread it just shows how much of my post you didn't get.

2013-09-23 01:58:00

Author:
Kalawishis

Posts: 928

2013-09-23 02:40:00

Author:
Squid2723

Posts: 12

Nah, I just don't see anything controversial about this website or any of the threads on it. It is after all about a children's video game and I don't believe that it should be taken as seriously as it is. If people just stopped caring and started having fun, I think the game and all fan sites dedicated to it would be much more enjoyable. Peace out girl scout.

I'm sorry I'm not as happy as you'd like me to be.

The fact that LBP is a kids game doesn't mean you can derail threads you don't like, or control what people can and can't say. If anything, you guys are the ones taking this too seriously. You are willing to break forum rules for the sake of silencing stuff you don't like, which you can easily avoid. LBP is a great, happy game, I'll give you that. Most threads are rather silly and fun. Still, it is something that people can feel strongly about-ex. you love that level you worked on for half a year. Nothing is pure sugar and rainbows, and eventually sometimes we have to argue. It's natural, and to derail everything you don't like for the sake of having this site be as sugary and bouncy as can be is just trying to hide that fact. You have to let things be.

2013-09-23 03:24:00

Author:
Kalawishis

Posts: 928

I was just having fun until you broke my feelings.

2013-09-23 03:51:00

Author:
Squid2723

Posts: 12

I was just having fun until you broke my feelings.

2013-09-23 04:49:00

Author:
ForgottenEnigma

Posts: 1414

I'm all for threads like this. If there is a problem, perceived or otherwise, it's good to discuss it out in the open. LBPC has never been about stifling conversation or sweeping things under the carpet to keep the environment sugary sweet. What it is about, however, is being a place where anyone can come to hang out and enjoy being part of the community.

If a thread has a ton of replies, generally speaking yes it should be left alone. If all of those replies are pointless and/or not in line with the original intent of the thread, then it needs moderation of some sort. I understand that nobody intended to get the "hearting your own level" thread locked, but then again I didn't see anybody trying to get it back on track either. Dav1d0 summarized it best:

You have freedom of speech... but also the responsibility of self moderation. Just because something can be said doesn't mean that it should.

2013-09-23 19:25:00

Author:
Taffey

Posts: 3187

Personally I am amazed a thread about if you heart your own level or not would be considered controversial. Has it really come to that?

Someone asks a question and it ends up being fanned into a flame war? Would it have gotten that bad had the OP asked what color is your favorite to use on level badges? ...or what is your favorite ice cream flavor to celebrate finishing a level?

To me it was almost as harmless of a question and it seems it ends up being a heated discussion.

...wow... amazing!

Now we have a thread concerned that we don't allow controversial subjects. We do... however we don't allow bickering and flame wars. I present you part of rule 9 for your reading pleasure.

"Calm, reasoned debate is completely allowed. As long as you are respectful of others' opinions, you are free to express your own."

...and I don't think you did. In my opinion, you guys shut the thread down. The ones going off topic were just trying to toss some humor in to show you how silly it was. It probably should have had a time out called or locked even earlier than it was... but then again hindsight is 20/20.

I take a few days off and some folks go all crazy. lol

2013-09-24 00:05:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

2013-09-24 01:21:00

Author:
Apple2012

Posts: 1408

Don't worry about it, however, I'd suggest going to one of the more fun areas of the site such as general discussion if you want to keep out of the firing line and have some fun. Site feedback tends to provoke emotionally intense responses which can be misfired at decent folks who get in the way.

------------------------------------------------------------

As for this thread... I wouldn't call two incidents that were separated by a two year gap a trend or anything worth being concerned about. Looking at the most recent example you provide, you yourself were derailing the thread to have a fight with another user about derailing the thread... since no additional relevant information was being contributed to the actual discussion, the mods followed the standard procedure of keeping the site tidy and locked it. Deleting offending posts would be like clearing snow while it was still snowing... you'd never finish as people would never stop.

You have freedom of speech... but also the responsibility of self moderation. Just because something can be said doesn't mean that it should.

Regardless, for this to be a "disturbing trend" it would need to be happening on a more frequent basis but it isn't.

------------------------------------------------------------

Also guys... "anti-negative"

Y'all keep saying this is a bad thing for some reason. Double negative equals a positive... if anything we want to be really anti-negative as then we would be super positive... but alas I digress, and at the risk of being hypocritical I'll leave it at that.

I'm all for threads like this. If there is a problem, perceived or otherwise, it's good to discuss it out in the open. LBPC has never been about stifling conversation or sweeping things under the carpet to keep the environment sugary sweet. What it is about, however, is being a place where anyone can come to hang out and enjoy being part of the community.

If a thread has a ton of replies, generally speaking yes it should be left alone. If all of those replies are pointless and/or not in line with the original intent of the thread, then it needs moderation of some sort. I understand that nobody intended to get the "hearting your own level" thread locked, but then again I didn't see anybody trying to get it back on track either. Dav1d0 summarized it best:

Personally I am amazed a thread about if you heart your own level or not would be considered controversial. Has it really come to that?

Someone asks a question and it ends up being fanned into a flame war? Would it have gotten that bad had the OP asked what color is your favorite to use on level badges? ...or what is your favorite ice cream flavor to celebrate finishing a level?

To me it was almost as harmless of a question and it seems it ends up being a heated discussion.

...wow... amazing!

Now we have a thread concerned that we don't allow controversial subjects. We do... however we don't allow bickering and flame wars. I present you part of rule 9 for your reading pleasure.

"Calm, reasoned debate is completely allowed. As long as you are respectful of others' opinions, you are free to express your own."

...and I don't think you did. In my opinion, you guys shut the thread down. The ones going off topic were just trying to toss some humor in to show you how silly it was. It probably should have had a time out called or locked even earlier than it was... but then again hindsight is 20/20.

I take a few days off and some folks go all crazy. lol

What I think that you all aren't getting is the difference between discussion and debate, and really the difference between positive and anti-negative.

A discussion is simply exchanging ideas. A debate is an argument between two people who've made up their minds already. Positivity is generally being optimistic about things. Anti-negativity is the opposing of anything not seen as being positive. Positive people try to understand what "negative" people are meaning, and the anti-negative people simply try to silence them. For example, here might be a "negative" quote:

This game is getting worse and worse. The Cool Pages are broken, and replacing them with the Lucky Dip seems really half-assed to me. Not only that, there are simply a ton of bugs Mm hasn't fixed that get in the way of creating and online play all the time. It's getting really frustrating and if something doesn't happen soon I'm going to quit.

Here would be a positive reply:

I feel your pain. The Cool Pages are pretty bad and the bugs are infuriating. I think this is just one of those situations where you have to look at the good things and find merit and them. There are still plenty of good levels to find through all the bad, either through this forum or through hearted lists, and through all the immature kids there are still plenty of friends to find. You have to look for, if you'll pardon the reference, "the diamonds in the rough", and I think this site can help you. Look here:

[Helpful links]

And this would be an example of an anti-negative link.

This thread has been done to death, you know right? There's a search feature right there. Search for your threads before you post. And you are taking this way too seriously. I seriously don't see how anybody can find bad stuff in a game like LBP. It's happy and light and to complain is rather silly. Also, you can't seriously be considering quitting. If you're going to stop playing because of such small things then you're really making mountains out of molehills. I enjoy it just fine, thank you. Just ignore the bad stuff and you'll be fine.

See the difference? The first actually attempts to understand what the poster was trying to say, and if the second isn't the most pretensious piece of paragraphical condescension then I don't know what is. The first is "here's what you can do", and the second is "don't complain, child" in fancy clothes.

And you're also making the threads to be worse than they were. "Hearting your own level" was hardly a flame war. The worst thing on there was "that's bullcrap", which is hardly us "going crazy". We never "attacked" each other. There were no personal insults and no typing in all caps. And while there was a rather bad case of personal insults in "Mm Picks starting to go downhill", it was only 1 guy, and he apologized later. The thought among you guys is that debate will deteriorate and destroy the thread, when that is often not the case. After all, Bender apologized for what he said in the move pack thread, and I was convinced by rtm223.

The people of lbpc are capable human beings. We can speak our minds without turning into monkeys. Even in the most inflammatory threads most of us still kept our cool. For example, "Site run by monkeys and bias kids", which is practically gasoline:

https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=60287-Site-Run-by-Monkeys-and-Bias-Kids

I still think that the site attitude and moderators are too sensitive when it comes to this stuff.

2013-09-24 01:50:00

Author:
Kalawishis

Posts: 928

I think I know why complaining is something we don't like talking about. It's not that it's negative, but the reason why they end up getting locked is because of these "duplicates". I'm not playing mod here, but this is why our complaint threads continue going down where water usually goes in plumbing - the drain. So yes, we should stay positive, but it's not the negativity the mods didn't like. It's the duplicates. We had several threads on the same thing, just like how we have so many news broadcasts on the same thing. Controversial subjects are okay to talk about once in a while, but we are right that we shouldn't talk about them all the time.

@jwwPhotos: I agree. It's not the controversial subjects that made LBPC unclean. I know you didn't say it here, but I think the duplicate threads are what made controversial threads look forbidden.

Not as much as you might think. Mostly those duplicates were back in the day of complaining about cool pages or someone dominating the cool pages etc.. and yes, those were locked just because they were duplicates. Though I did explain why before locking. There were just a bunch of those, usually from new members that didn't bother to do any searching.

However, the thread in question was not a duplicate at all. It was simply a question if you thought it was ok to heart your own levels or not. Asking everyone's opinion, which should be simple. ...however it turned not so simple and in some cases a bit obsessive in some of the "discussion".

Again, we really don't mind discussion topics of most any sort, I really enjoy them. However, what will kill them off quicker than anything is not respecting each others opinions or each other in those threads. That is the negativity we dislike.

2013-09-24 02:00:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

I still think that the site attitude and moderators are too sensitive when it comes to this stuff.Fair enough. Now we're getting somewhere.

To help me solidify what is being asked for and what should be done, here are a couple fill-in-the-blank sentences. (Hey, this is the 'Site Feedback' section right? I can do that.

)

1) The thing that I perceive as a problem is __________________________ .

2) My suggestion for fixing this problem is __________________________ .

Ready, go. Shorter answers are better.

2013-09-24 02:18:00

Author:
Taffey

Posts: 3187

Fair enough. Now we're getting somewhere.

To help me solidify what is being asked for and what should be done, here are a couple fill-in-the-blank sentences. (Hey, this is the 'Site Feedback' section right? I can do that. )

1) The thing that I perceive as a problem is __________________________ .

2) My suggestion for fixing this problem is __________________________ .

Ready, go. Shorter answers are better.

Really, stating it so flatly and shortly won't do justice to what I've said. It's not something I can TL;DR easily.

But I'll try.

1) The thing that I perceive as a problem is that in many site users there is a combination of over-sensitivity and entitlement to the control of what people say that causes them to derail threads they perceive as "bad", and that the moderators are only adding to the problem by locking these threads.

2) My suggestion for fixing this problem is that rather than just plain lock the threads and silence everyone on the matter for the entirety (for all duplicates are locked), the mods should rather try to stop this attitude of derailing by either messaging the derailers to stop or deleting and archiving the off-topic posts.

2013-09-24 03:17:00

Author:
Kalawishis

Posts: 928

Really, stating it so flatly and shortly won't do justice to what I've said. It's not something I can TL;DR easily.I know what I asked wasn't a simple thing - but then that's exactly why I asked. Besides, I knew you could do it.

As Pascal famously wrote (albeit in French): I have made this longer than usual because I have not had time to make it shorter.

1) The thing that I perceive as a problem is that in many site users there is a combination of over-sensitivity and entitlement to the control of what people say that causes them to derail threads they perceive as "bad", and that the moderators are only adding to the problem by locking these threads.Very well said, and to the point. Of course by locking threads the site staff is only trying to help make bad situations better, but I do agree that locking a thread is not always the best solution.

2) My suggestion for fixing this problem is that rather than just plain lock the threads and silence everyone on the matter for the entirety (for all duplicates are locked), the mods should rather try to stop this attitude of derailing by either messaging the derailers to stop or deleting and archiving the off-topic posts.A very fair suggestion and one I am willing to entertain. There is quite a bit of discussion on the subject happening in the super-duper-secret underground staff bunker; this will be added to the mix.

Thanks for taking the time to summarize your thoughts, it's genuinely a big help.

2013-09-24 03:35:00

Author:
Taffey

Posts: 3187

sorry guys. all I intended was a "whats your opinion?" question, and a "wow, thats interesting!" response

2013-09-24 03:43:00

Author:
megaextremist

Posts: 221

sorry guys. all I intended was a "whats your opinion?" question, and a "wow, thats interesting!" responseWELL THAT SHOULD TEACH YOU TO KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHU.... Kidding. I'm kidding.

Sometimes random topics bring out deeper discussion matter without warning (or intent). I give you credit for coming up with a quality topic for discussion in the first place.

2013-09-24 03:49:00

Author:
Taffey

Posts: 3187

WELL THAT SHOULD TEACH YOU TO KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHU.... Kidding. I'm kidding.

this is dead-on literally what I said to myself word for word when this happened lol

2013-09-24 03:55:00

Author:
megaextremist

Posts: 221

Not as much as you might think. Mostly those duplicates were back in the day of complaining about cool pages or someone dominating the cool pages etc.. and yes, those were locked just because they were duplicates. Though I did explain why before locking. There were just a bunch of those, usually from new members that didn't bother to do any searching.

However, the thread in question was not a duplicate at all. It was simply a question if you thought it was ok to heart your own levels or not. Asking everyone's opinion, which should be simple. ...however it turned not so simple and in some cases a bit obsessive in some of the "discussion".

Again, we really don't mind discussion topics of most any sort, I really enjoy them. However, what will kill them off quicker than anything is not respecting each others opinions or each other in those threads. That is the negativity we dislike.

My misunderstanding. So after all, negativity is what you don't like, but the duplicates were part of the reason why those controversial threads I was talking about was locked. I never posted on the topic of focus here, but I didn't know it ended up controversial. I'm guessing that you don't mind threads about controversies. You just don't want the argument to go out of control like how I did on the election thread when it came to talking about Obamacare (which I'm still against). You also don't like threads that escalated fast (like going off-topic or forum wars). I did a good job staying out of these controversial threads, but I have been also too busy to post.

Just to summarize, I think I know what it is:

Threads on controversies - Maybe
Negativity on threads - No

2013-09-24 04:54:00

Author:
Apple2012

Posts: 1408

It likely breeds more negativity and resentment to curtail people mid-discussion if we're going for the negative anti-negative positive vibe.

2013-09-24 05:11:00

Author:
Ayneh

Posts: 2454

*mew

2013-09-24 20:12:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz

Posts: 4261

I love how the site is handling the moderation right now. It has been the best in years. I like strict rules on a site personally. And I especially love it when friendly & nice conduct rules are enforced. Most people try to be as negative as possible. And instead of letting them have fun and turn other people's heart dark. It's much better to remove the problem. Freedom of speech is important of course. But everything has it's limits. If you are only using your freedom to hurt other people then of course it shouldn't be allowed. Human's dark nature side should not be fed. It's a big problem that still hunts the internet and life in general. Hardly anyone can go around without being insulted by somebody or looked down upon by many in this life. Most people will just tell you to suck it up and deal with it. But why should people get used to getting bullied? The answer is they should not have to deal with it nearly as often as they do. A lot of the world may not accept sensitive people, But that doesn't make it right. *mew

I'm pretty much the opposite-that is, I would like lighter moderation very much. But that's beside the point.

Why are we convinced that we need strict sensitivity here? We're civil ourselves. We've handled the responsibility of self-moderation beautifully. You guys are acting as if the moderation rules and site attitude weren't the way they were we'd be drowning in a sea of negativity, but that's not the case. I can count the number of times this forum has gotten ugly, all 5 years of it, on one of my hands, and even then it was extremely mild compared to what it could have been if we weren't so considerate. This is hardly due to strict moderation-it's due to us.

The belief here that this site can't handle free speech because we'd be insulting and bullying really just undermines the inherent positivity that we have. In fact, it implies that this game isn't really so happy and positive at all. But it's simply, in my opinion, a wrong belief. Even with no moderators we'd likely still function very smoothly (providing we aren't infiltrated by a bunch of trolls). We do not need the mods to save us from ourselves. Now, I'm not saying the mods should go, but again, they really aren't helping with their actions now.

Those topics were rightfully closed. If I was a Mod, I probably would had closed them a bit sooner then they even were. They may not had been made to be negative. But that's the direction they gone. Even i myself was getting pretty angry at some of the people in those topics. Which means other people were too. And that's not something that should happen.

The great irony in this quote is probably the fact that you, fumetsuozo, probably had one of the most strongly worded posts in the thread. To quote you:

Your opinion on the matter is funny. *mew

But yeah. My opinion is that hearting your own level reeks of narcissism or pathetic desperation to get yourself attention. Since obviously you don't need to heart your own level to help yourself find it. If I ever saw somebody heart their own level, In my mind I'd think 1 of 2 things right off the bat. #1 it must mean the dude has no self-confidence that anyone will play their level. Or #2 the dude is really that self-centered. Regardless of what the case really was, At that point I wouldn't touch that person's level with a 10 foot pole.

But honestly it doesn't really matter to me if a person hearts their own level. But I will say it's pointless and that the option should be removed from the game. *mew

How sensitive is "your opinion on the matter is funny" and "my opinion is that hearting your own reeks of narcissism or pathetic desperation"? Not very, I'd say. Keep in mind that this coming from the same man who said:

Hardly anyone can go around without being insulted by somebody or looked down upon by many in this life.

I think if you want to restrict our speech, you should take a good look at your own posts first. Not saying your posts are bad, but the very things you're arguing for incriminate your own posts.

2013-09-25 03:10:00

Author:
Kalawishis

Posts: 928

The LBP community is unquestionably awesome. Perfect, no, but quite exceptional otherwise. With that said...

We've handled the responsibility of self-moderation beautifully.Ehm... well... Generally speaking yes, but all it takes is one fart in the elevator of life to make it unpleasant for everyone.

Even with no moderators we'd likely still function very smoothly (providing we aren't infiltrated by a bunch of trolls).I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on that point. I take it you've never visited 4chan.

You would not believe how much (completely invisible) effort it takes to keep this site running smoothly. *tips hat in Lady_Luck's direction*

*quickly hands out cookies to the other mods so that they don't feel left out*

2013-09-25 06:57:00

Author:
Taffey

Posts: 3187

I'm pretty much the opposite-that is, I would like lighter moderation very much. But that's beside the point.

Why are we convinced that we need strict sensitivity here? We're civil ourselves. We've handled the responsibility of self-moderation beautifully. You guys are acting as if the moderation rules and site attitude weren't the way they were we'd be drowning in a sea of negativity, but that's not the case. I can count the number of times this forum has gotten ugly, all 5 years of it, on one of my hands, and even then it was extremely mild compared to what it could have been if we weren't so considerate. This is hardly due to strict moderation-it's due to us.

The belief here that this site can't handle free speech because we'd be insulting and bullying really just undermines the inherent positivity that we have. In fact, it implies that this game isn't really so happy and positive at all. But it's simply, in my opinion, a wrong belief. Even with no moderators we'd likely still function very smoothly (providing we aren't infiltrated by a bunch of trolls). We do not need the mods to save us from ourselves. Now, I'm not saying the mods should go, but again, they really aren't helping with their actions now.

In my opinion, and yes I do get one, that thread was making others uncomfortable. You say it was a discussion, but you should really reread the back and forth that was going on, being mindful of the feelings and tempers. It wasn't merely a friendly discussion. True it wasn't a flame war, but you had him in your sights and wanted "to win". You couldn't simply accept his feelings on the matter and let it go as "interesting". Seems to me you felt you needed to win the thing and looks like you were starting to upset him.

Others felt the same thing considering it a really silly thing to argue about in the first place and why you got the Bonner treatment. Something I might have done myself before I was a mod or had been around. lol

I think we are pretty light on moderation at times, especially concerning going off topic a bit. To me, you just didn't like that lock because you didn't get to win your argument or toss the knockout blow. However, it wasn't really going anywhere. Heck, even when Lady Luck locked it she got several thanks.

So while I think you have some good points, you aren't being totally honest with yourself concerning that thread. In fact, I would be willing to bet in this particular case, you would be in the minority especially considering some of the comments here in this thread. You also need to realize we have members of many different ages here at LBPC, from 9 to over 60 years old. So sometimes it is also important to realize the age of the other person you are discussing things with.

Just my two cents..

2013-09-25 11:33:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

Ah LBPC…home to condescending atheists, pseudo-scientists and passive-aggressive grammar Nazis. You can’t have an opinion on here that won’t be destroyed by a giant, flaming ball of egocentricism.

But of course that’s just my opinion that should totally be respected and is not in anyway indirectly insulting certain people who post on this site…

I mean…I could just be honest with myself and say that I think everyone who doesn’t agree with me is stupid but NO! That would be against the rules! Instead, I’ll say it nicely and use subversive tactics to get my point across while sweetly labeling and psychoanalyzing people.

You don’t agree with me?! Well I can tell you exactly why my subjective perception of reality is logical and correct and yours is the result of delusions brought about by self-interest.

But of course I’m not the same as your weak-minded self and am always completely impartial because I’m just awesome like that! Why do you need an opinion when I can have an opinion for you?!

Why even express yourself?! You know I’m just gonna disagree with you because I want to feel smart and have a superiority complex. I’m only trying to help YOU and CLEARLY not myself to become as smart as me. Don't you see how misguided you are? Everyone else here agrees with me...so obviously your OPINION must be WRONG!

OMG another MM picks topic?! Why do these keep coming up?! You know I can’t control myself and have a civilized discussion without getting mad at someone who is CLEARLY not as smart as me. Well I’m not gonna change because I’m obviously not the problem, so maybe this thread should change!

BURN IT DOWN! SILENCE! NO ONE CAN HAVE AN OPINION! ANYONE WHO IS COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO HONESTLY EXPRESS THEMSELVES WILL GET PERMA-BANNED! DIEEEE!!!!

Just my two cents..

2013-09-25 14:12:00

Author:
comishguy67

Posts: 849

I think if you want to restrict our speech, you should take a good look at your own posts first. Not saying your posts are bad, but the very things you're arguing for incriminate your own posts.

I pay a lot of attention to what I say actually.

Who says I believe that I should live by example or play fair? Just because I’m rude sometimes doesn’t mean I think other people should be? I’ve had my own posts deleted by mods before. And it rarely ever bothered me. They had their reasons I‘m sure. It’s all for the sake of a more happy minded community. And that is something I respect. *mew

And I disagree. I wouldn’t bother being a member of this forum if it didn’t enforce nice conduct rules. Without rules people “Can Not” control themselves. I’ve been to many forums with far less rules. And almost everybody is terrible. I was lucky to make a single post in those forums without people insulting me when I was actually often being quite friendly myself. In my opinion they made their point clear. Even though I had no idea why. They didn’t want me around.

LBP… a happy community? That’s a joke. It maybe almost used to be at some point. But it isn’t anymore that‘s for sure. Otherwise you wouldn’t see people complain all the time how horrible the community is. There’s good reasons why even the company is aware of the problem and have added features into the game like disabling comments or the block button or even replacing the cool page with lucky dip.

And if you really & honestly don’t like the rules here. You don’t have to stay here ya know? Even though it’s beyond me why anyone would hate this forum’s rules. *mew

Really it just seems like to me that you are in denial about the whole thing, Or maybe are just looking to argue for the sake of arguing.

2013-09-25 14:45:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz

Posts: 4261

2013-09-25 21:11:00

Author:
flamingemu

Posts: 1872

This thread has taken a turn for the interesting!

In my opinion, and yes I do get one, that thread was making others uncomfortable. You say it was a discussion, but you should really reread the back and forth that was going on, being mindful of the feelings and tempers. It wasn't merely a friendly discussion. True it wasn't a flame war, but you had him in your sights and wanted "to win". You couldn't simply accept his feelings on the matter and let it go as "interesting". Seems to me you felt you needed to win the thing and looks like you were starting to upset him.

Others felt the same thing considering it a really silly thing to argue about in the first place and why you got the Bonner treatment. Something I might have done myself before I was a mod or had been around. lol

I think we are pretty light on moderation at times, especially concerning going off topic a bit. To me, you just didn't like that lock because you didn't get to win your argument or toss the knockout blow. However, it wasn't really going anywhere. Heck, even when Lady Luck locked it she got several thanks.

So while I think you have some good points, you aren't being totally honest with yourself concerning that thread. In fact, I would be willing to bet in this particular case, you would be in the minority especially considering some of the comments here in this thread. You also need to realize we have members of many different ages here at LBPC, from 9 to over 60 years old. So sometimes it is also important to realize the age of the other person you are discussing things with.

Just my two cents..

I think you need to take a closer look at that thread. You think I'm the guy who couldn't accept others' beliefs, but that's pretty far from the truth. To quote you:

You couldn't simply accept his feelings on the matter and let it go as "interesting". Seems to me you felt you needed to win the thing and looks like you were starting to upset him.

Here's my first post in "Hearting your own level?"

If you're going to heart your own level, then you might as well create a crap-ton of sub-accounts to do so too. If you like your level enough to heart it then if you really like it then why can't you heart it again and again?

To say it's okay to heart your own level is really, by extension, to say that you can create sub-accounts to heart your level too. If you really like your level why should you deny yourself that joy.

Of course, I don't heart my own levels. I find it rather silly and amusing. I often see many levels with 0 plays, 0 yays, and 1 heart, and think, "Oh, how cute." I do have a sub-account though, and I have hearted all my levels on it. Food for thought.

I didn't really attack anyone's beliefs. Yes, I used some fumetsuozo-esque language in there, but I was hardly coming across as not accepting what other people thought of the matter.

However, this was KlawwtheClown, the "defendant's", reply:

This is the stupidest argument I've ever heard. There's a difference between being proud of something and just downright cheating your way to the top.

That's like saying that just because Spaff goes out and buys himself a copy of Tearaway, Mm may as well buy up as many copies as possible to make it a best seller. There's literally no difference, is there?

I like my own levels. I make levels specifically for myself to enjoy, in hopes that there are other people who will like them too. I fail to see how this instantly turns me in to a heart-boosting narcissist.

Who's attacking who? If you're seriously thinking that I'm the one who started the debate then you're sorely mistaken. At no point in my original post did I ever indicate that I thought it was a big deal. Klaww brought it on himself-he wanted to debate, so I let him have that joy. He made it the big deal, but you're accusing me. And, even though I'm no judge of myself, I did think I had the better conduct in the debate. The worst thing I said in the thread was along the lines of "you are putting words in my mouth, and it's immature". Not exactly friendly, but hardly "that is the stupidest argument I've ever heard" (added with some putting words in my mouth for good measure). Not to mention that I wasn't even arguing at that moment. So before you tell me to take a good look at the thread, you should probably re-adjust your glasses. There are things you didn't pick up.

But even so, I think everybody's conduct there was rather acceptable-not good-but acceptable. Speaking of which, fumetsuozo:

Who says I believe that I should live by example or play fair? Just because I?m rude sometimes doesn?t mean I think other people should be? I've had my own posts deleted by mods before. And it rarely ever bothered me. They had their reasons I?m sure. It's all for the sake of a more happy minded community. And that is something I respect. *mew

Not to be rude, but that's pretty much definition hypocrisy. As in, not practicing what you preach, but it's not just that either. It's not holding yourself to the same standard that you hold other people to. Why should other people have to be nice when you can get away with being rude? What gives you that special privilege that even the mods and the admin don't have? Or are you only going to be nice when everybody else is nice? It's akin to an environmentalist who drives an SUV and keeps the lights on all day.

LBP? a happy community? That?s a joke. It maybe almost used to be at some point. But it isn?t anymore that?s for sure. Otherwise you wouldn?t see people complain all the time how horrible the community is. There?s good reasons why even the company is aware of the problem and have added features into the game like disabling comments or the block button or even replacing the cool page with lucky dip.

This site would reflect that. To be happy in the face of such a negative subject would probably be comical if it weren't so sad. Why should we have to be happy in denial of reality? What's the good in that? Why should we have to keep things artificially positive? It'll just ruin the site quality, since we wouldn't be able to talk about things honest.

And if you really & honestly don't like the rules here. You don't have to stay here ya know? Even though it's beyond me why anyone would hate this forum?s rules. *mew

Really it just seems like to me that you are in denial about the whole thing, Or maybe are just looking to argue for the sake of arguing.

And you do realize that the main slogan of the Brazilian authoritarian military dictatorship was this, right?

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~athay20m/classweb/censorshipbrazil/images/050ame_o.png

"Brasil: Love it or leave it."

Just because we can leave if we want doesn't mean you have the right to change it however you want. If the community spotlights started just featuring platformers, you wouldn't just switch, right? You try to change it.

Also:

Ah LBPC?home to condescending atheists, pseudo-scientists and passive-aggressive grammar Nazis. You can?t have an opinion on here that won?t be destroyed by a giant, flaming ball of egocentricism.

But of course that?s just my opinion that should totally be respected and is not in anyway indirectly insulting certain people who post on this site?

I mean?I could just be honest with myself and say that I think everyone who doesn?t agree with me is stupid but NO! That would be against the rules! Instead, I?ll say it nicely and use subversive tactics to get my point across while sweetly labeling and psychoanalyzing people.

You don't agree with me?! Well I can tell you exactly why my subjective perception of reality is logical and correct and yours is the result of delusions brought about by self-interest.

But of course I?m not the same as your weak-minded self and am always completely impartial because I?m just awesome like that! Why do you need an opinion when I can have an opinion for you?!

Why even express yourself?! You know I?m just gonna disagree with you because I want to feel smart and have a superiority complex. I?m only trying to help YOU and CLEARLY not myself to become as smart as me. Don't you see how misguided you are? Everyone else here agrees with me...so obviously your OPINION must be WRONG!

OMG another MM picks topic?! Why do these keep coming up?! You know I can?t control myself and have a civilized discussion without getting mad at someone who is CLEARLY not as smart as me. Well I?m not gonna change because I?m obviously not the problem, so maybe this thread should change!

BURN IT DOWN! SILENCE! NO ONE CAN HAVE AN OPINION! ANYONE WHO IS COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO HONESTLY EXPRESS THEMSELVES WILL GET PERMA-BANNED! DIEEEE!!!!

Just my two cents..

Let loose with the sarcasm, brother.

2013-09-26 02:48:00

Author:
Kalawishis

Posts: 928

This thread appears to be all about quoting other people and pointing out their faults. As such, I'd like to revisit this one:

We've handled the responsibility of self-moderation beautifully.I'm not seeing it so far. But please, continue.

2013-09-26 03:29:00

Author:
Taffey

Posts: 3187

http://www.ohmagif.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/what-did-you-just-say.gif
Is this metasarcasm because I just can't wrap my head around this post?
Like, at the end you parody what jww said and used the word perma banned, but the post seems to be written in a vein that is so OTT that it mocks another's perception of a character. Are you mocking mocking jww or just mocking jww or mocking mocking mocking the mods or what.

The post was directed towards a lot of people on this site. (I was just in a sarcastic mood in the spirit of a new season of South Park XD)

I noticed a lot of times a thread gets heated is because people posting have to project this notion of right and wrong on a subject that doesn't necessarily have a right or wrong. Like for example the MM picks, and even this subject.

It's all just opinions, no one is right or wrong and if you guys can't talk about something without it getting heated, then maybe the issue isn't the thread's subject, but the people posting in the thread. Everyone has a right to their own opinion and to express themselves. If you guys can't do that without ganging up on someone or being "amazingly" rude, then you shouldn't post at all.

(In terms of this thread's subject) Yes, I think the moderation team should take it easy. Maybe give warnings if things get a little out of hand (which you guys do), but just straight up locking a thread will only just make...well...threads like this...and probably even more threads on the same subject . Locking threads just defers the issue, but of course sometimes that is a necessary thing, to cool people down. So it's a judgement call.

The little quip of Jww's post ("Just my two cents") didn't carry any subtext. I just thought it was a nice way to end a post XD

2013-09-26 14:00:00

Author:
comishguy67

Posts: 849

People who compare being moderated for being silly on a children's videogame fansite to genuinely being suppressed are way too sheltered.

The internet is not binded by "free speech". Forums are private and moderators can pretty much do whatever they want. Comparing mods to fascists is really [darn] stupid, and you need to learn what freedom of speech actually entails if you think the comparison is apt. In reality, there are barely any truly controversial threads on LBPC anymore. Stuff like the issue of nepotism in the community would rightfully generate a heated discussion. Threads about hearting your own levels? Not so much. People pretty much got into arguments for the sake of arguments on a topic that is so irrelevant it hurts. People wouldn't just accept that people had different valid opinions on the matter, no. They got into long winded debates that barely said anything.

So yeah, the issue isn't the topics at hand. It's not that people have differing opinions, it's that people treat these differences with immaturity rather than genuine discussion.

Let's throw away the concept.

I'll meet you in the grace of cyberspace.

Hold my hand, I'll hold yours.

Then you'll throw away the oars.

Then you'll call me a fascist.

And then I'll get a little sad.

Then Godwin. Godwin. Godwin.

2013-09-26 16:50:00

Author:
bonner123

Posts: 1487

This thread appears to be all about quoting other people and pointing out their faults. As such, I'd like to revisit this one:

You make is sound like everybody in here is posting: "Wow, you're ugly," or, "Wow, you're stupid." That's hardly the case. People in here were saying that I couldn't accept other people's beliefs, so I proved them wrong by showing my first post in the thread. There was also hypocrisy in this thread, so I pointed that out-you can't really expect to get away with hypocrisy, after all, and he was using it as wrongful justification for his actions. You're twisting things. And, really, we are handling self-moderation beautifully. If it's a bad thing to point out people's flaws when they show them, then I'm not interested in hearing the good thing. What's good to you? Us complimenting each other day in and day out? Infinite vapidness, where it's unacceptable to disagree publicly, where we can't call people out on things? I suppose "beautiful" means different things to us.

But if it means what you're implying then I hardly think that you aren't trying to stifle debate. Again, debates are not pleasant things.

People who compare being moderated for being silly on a children's videogame fansite to genuinely being suppressed are way too sheltered.

The internet is not binded by "free speech". Forums are private and moderators can pretty much do whatever they want. Comparing mods to fascists is really [darn] stupid, and you need to learn what freedom of speech actually entails if you think the comparison is apt. In reality, there are barely any truly controversial threads on LBPC anymore. Stuff like the issue of nepotism in the community would rightfully generate a heated discussion. Threads about hearting your own levels? Not so much. People pretty much got into arguments for the sake of arguments on a topic that is so irrelevant it hurts. People wouldn't just accept that people had different valid opinions on the matter, no. They got into long winded debates that barely said anything.

So yeah, the issue isn't the topics at hand. It's not that people have differing opinions, it's that people treat these differences with immaturity rather than genuine discussion.

Let's throw away the concept.

I'll meet you in the grace of cyberspace.

Hold my hand, I'll hold yours.

Then you'll throw away the oars.

Then you'll call me a fascist.

And then I'll get a little sad.

Then Godwin. Godwin. Godwin.

I'm not comparing the mods to fascists. To be honest, I'm not comparing anyone to fascists. Yes, I had that Ungreth quote, but it was over the top and I think everyone knows it-it did have a good point though. And the "Brazil - Love it or leave it" thing was too good to resist.

But the matter still stands that you and people like you find yourselves entitled to derail threads you don't like. You accuse us of not being able to accept other people for their beliefs, when you do the same thing. A lot of people thought hearting your own level was, indeed, something that was worth arguing over, otherwise they wouldn't have argued in the first place. The fact that you can't accept that shows the irony in what you're saying. Really, you're worst attacker-since you just spam. And say there is a thread about neoptism in the community. With the justifications you were using, I could say you're all immature for arguing about a small thing. "It's a kids game," I could say, "you are seriously stupid to be arguing about a kids game. You all need to take a chill pill." And then I could derail the thread, and the mods would lock it. And, with your logic, there'd be nothing wrong with that. The only difference, the only thing that makes what you did okay and what I did not okay is your personal opinion. See what I mean?

2013-09-27 02:39:00

Author:
Kalawishis

Posts: 928

So yeah, the issue isn't the topics at hand. It's not that people have differing opinions, it's that people treat these differences with immaturity rather than genuine discussion.

This.

@ Kalawishis

There is a big difference between a heated discussion/debate, and bickering. If people here discuss things maturely and rationally, we won't touch a word in their threads.

If someone tries to genuinely derail an actual discussion, we will indeed remove the offending posts or split off the discussion if it's valid.

In the case of "hearting your own level" thread, the principle problem wasn't people spamming of nonsense to derail the thread, it was the bickering going on - so between that AND the spam, the best course of action was to put a bullet in the thing and put it out of it's misery, which is exactly what we did. That thread was already off the rail and headed south, so perhaps what you see as derailing might be perceived as less offensive than the arguing by others.

I'm not comparing the mods to fascists. To be honest, I'm not comparing anyone to fascists. Yes, I had that Ungreth quote, but it was over the top and I think everyone knows it-it did have a good point though. And the "Brazil - Love it or leave it" thing was too good to resist.

I hear what you're saying, but to be honest your quoting of Nazi and Russian propaganda speaks volumes about your feelings towards the staff & community here. And don't think that we didn't notice that you slipped the Russian back in after we took out the Nazi song (out of respect for our new German members). It's things like that that me think that you might really consider what Dav1d0 said on page one about "the responsibility of self-moderation".

This site and the people here have a long history and personal ties with media molecule and their games. If you want to come here and post things that you know will upset people, than you shouldn't be surprised at all by the response you're getting.

2013-09-27 10:15:00

Author:
Chazprime

Posts: 587

This.

@ Kalawishis

There is a big difference between a heated discussion/debate, and bickering. If people here discuss things maturely and rationally, we won't touch a word in their threads.

If someone tries to genuinely derail an actual discussion, we will indeed remove the offending posts or split off the discussion if it's valid.

In the case of "hearting your own level" thread, the principle problem wasn't people spamming of nonsense to derail the thread, it was the bickering going on - so between that AND the spam, the best course of action was to put a bullet in the thing and put it out of it's misery, which is exactly what we did. That thread was already off the rail and headed south, so perhaps what you see as derailing might be perceived as less offensive than the arguing by others.

I hear what you're saying, but to be honest your quoting of Nazi and Russian propaganda speaks volumes about your feelings towards the staff & community here. And don't think that we didn't notice that you slipped the Russian back in after we took out the Nazi song (out of respect for our new German members). It's things like that that me think that you might really consider what Dav1d0 said on page one about "the responsibility of self-moderation".

This site and the people here have a long history and personal ties with media molecule and their games. If you want to come here and post things that you know will upset people, than you shouldn't be surprised at all by the response you're getting.

Bravo!

...except he won't agree. I think the man simply loves to argue no matter what. After reading that other thread a few more times it almost seems like no matter what anyone said or responded, he would argue the opposite or point out flaws in their reasoning. Lawyer training camp?

It didn't matter who started what or anything of the sort. Showing the first post he made as proof is a bit like showing a smiley pic of a 10 year old before he soaps the neighbor's windows. Now of course that is a stretch, but to me similar to accusing someone of hearting their level with a ton of alt accounts when all they said was they heart their levels. Like if I said I drive 3mph over the speed limit at times, I might as well go ahead and drive 120mph because they are both illegal. Exact same thing right? That is the Kalawishis spin on how we make a point! lol

Everyone could tell (well except Kalawishis) it was a thread that was crying out for something to be done. Kalawishis himself reported the off topic posts and if I remember correctly, pm'd Lady Luck to do something. Well.. she did. ...and since it seems he doesn't like others being nice all the time, then by golly maybe we locked it because we are just plain mean and grew weary of the silly argument that was going nowhere.

lol ...and Happy Friday everyone!

2013-09-27 11:05:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

@ Kalawishis:

Hi mate.

I don't have much to to say in this thread, but let me say this about "suppression of dissent"
I was born in a country where ancients of me 70 years ago lived in a terrible dictatorship. It was one of the darkest periods of mankind. After the war a different kind of dictatorship lives on in the formally GDR (German Democratic Republic). During this times a "wrong" opinion has been a reason to get imprisoned, tortured or killed by the gouvernment. THERE was supression of dissent.

I totally agree with you in one point: Whenever you think, somebody censor or persecute an individuals opinion, stand up and fight for his right to say his opinion. This is what free and brave minds have to do! Supression starts with censoring the freedom of speech.
It's good to complain when you have the feeling of being censored or supressed. So yes, I think it was a good idea to start this thread. So I respect your point of view.
But:
Quoting "supression of dissent" and using the song on page one (which thankfully is deleated -> a horrible song of a horrible period) is exaggerated and overreacted in my opinion, when we talk about LBPC.

Look, the pure existence of this thread proves that this site and the responsibles of this site respect every kind of opinion.
(For sure, some things must be moderated: bothering things, swearing and nasty stuff, spam, advertisement and so on).

I like a quotation of "Evelyn Beatrice Hall" which fits well and I think you will like it too:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

This also includes all the answeres from members or mods who have different opinions than you

If you or somebody else don't share my opinion to this, it's OK! We are individuals. If all of us would have exactly the same opinions, we wouldn't be human beings (and there would be nothing to debate in this thread)

I am glad to be part of this community and I never, really never had the feeling of being supressed or censored at LBPC

(Ha ha ha. Now I wrote much more, as I thought, when starting this post. Dear readers, forgive me that I wrote that much

)

2013-09-27 13:32:00

Author:
avundcv

Posts: 2526

Wow...

I totally agree with you in one point: Whenever you think, somebody censor or persecute an individuals opinion, stand up and fight for his right to say his opinion. This is what free and brave minds have to do! Supression starts with censoring the freedom of speech.
It's good to complain when you have the feeling of being censored or supressed. So yes, I think it was a good idea to start this thread.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

This right here. ^

In the case of "hearting your own level" thread, the principle problem wasn't people spamming of nonsense to derail the thread, it was the bickering going on - so between that AND the spam, the best course of action was to put a bullet in the thing and put it out of it's misery, which is exactly what we did.

It doesn't matter how silly, controversial or redundant a subject is. If people can't have a discussion without being immature, it's not the thread or the OPs fault...You guys just took the easy way out by deleting the thread, which ya know...would've been a decent solution if you followed up on it...

The least you could've done was make a new thread of the subject, asking people to respect each others opinion, act mature and not spam.

...except he won't agree. I think the man simply loves to argue no matter what. After reading that other thread a few more times it almost seems like no matter what anyone said or responded, he would argue the opposite or point out flaws in their reasoning. Lawyer training camp?

And...? What else are you supposed to do in a thread/discussion? Just agree with everyone?

2013-09-27 15:49:00

Author:
comishguy67

Posts: 849

You sure are having fun with quoting others in order to flaunt your own ego huh? Well 2 can play at that game!

*mew

(This thread has taken a turn for the interesting!)

Happy to see you are also having fun arguing with other people and not respecting their opinions.

(Yes, I used some fumetsuozo-esque language in there,)

Now you are comparing yourself to me? That can only end in good results “That’s sarcasm btw”

(but I was hardly coming across as not accepting what other people thought of the matter. )

What?

(Seriously, bonner. Stop.)

Not only was that not accepting what he had to say. You also told him to stop, As in you didn’t respect his freedom of speech, Which means you were trying to tell him what to do. Which goes against this.

(Freedom of speech!)

Sounds like you are trying to control what he can or can't say to me. *mew

(We've handled the responsibility of self-moderation beautifully.)

And that’s because we have strict rules the site requests us to follow. You seriously think that without much rules anybody would bother to moderate themselves even half the time? It’s because there are clear rules to follow that we do whatsoever. And you are not giving the mods half the credit they deserve. They do much more work around here then you’d think.

(So I messaged a mod, and reported the off-topic posts)

So… Let me get this straight. Even you needed a mod to try to get rid of somebody’s posts that you didn’t like? Not only does this mean you didn’t respect that person’s freedom of speech. But it also shows you don’t believe in your own words that we have actually been greatly moderating ourselves well.

(Not to be rude, but that's pretty much definition hypocrisy. As in, not practicing what you preach, but it's not just that either. It's not holding yourself to the same standard that you hold other people to. Why should other people have to be nice when you can get away with being rude? What gives you that special privilege that even the mods and the admin don't have? Or are you only going to be nice when everybody else is nice? It's akin to an environmentalist who drives an SUV and keeps the lights on all day.)

Hey now, I can be hypocritical If I want to, And by your own words on freedom I should be allowed to. And what can I say? I find it funny. So I rarely will do it sometimes long as it’s harmless. And I don’t need anyone to give me special privilege. I give myself special privilege!.

Also a good example. if a guy eats some bad food often that gives him stomach pain. And tries to tell another guy that he shouldn’t eat that food because it‘ll give him pain. Does this mean he shouldn’t be allowed to because it would make him a hypocrite? Of course he has the right to warn the other guy. Because of a good reason. He can tell that guy from his own experience that it’s a bad idea. And that he doesn’t want others to do the same thing he did for their own sake.

(Why should we have to be happy in denial of reality? What's the good in that? Why should we have to keep things artificially positive? It'll just ruin the site quality, since we wouldn't be able to talk about things honest. )

So you’d prefer and want the site to be negative? Instead of at least trying to make things better? Great priorities there bud!.

("Brazil: Love it or leave it.")

So now we are comparing a single online forum to a whole country? Bit extreme I’d say. I’d see a forum such as this more like a semi big hobby club building. And yes. If you don’t like the club rules. Especially when the club rules are only there to try to keep it’s members nice. Then I’d say yes. Take it or leave it. There’s other clubs out there. No need to stink up the one you are in just for the sake of pride and stubbornness.

(so I proved them wrong)

That’s a stretch if I ever heard one. *mew

(There was also hypocrisy in this thread, so I pointed that out-you can't really expect to get away with hypocrisy, after all, and he was using it as wrongful justification for his actions.)

I shouldn’t be allowed to get away with it? that sounds like to me you are trying to control what I and others can or can not say. Which strongly goes against what you have been complaining about here.

And nice job taking this whole subject way to seriously with trying to compare things to being Nazi around here. Hey folks watch out. Next you know he'll start looking for real life famous criminals to compare us all to. ;P

I gotta say. Not only are you taking all of this Waaaaay to seriously. It also seems to me that it really is just a case of you wanting to win the augments no matter what you have to say in order to do so isn’t it? Well here’s some news. It’s not working. Have fun with your game over screen. <3

PS: I wasn’t going to keep replying but I found all of this way to amusing to pass up on~

2013-09-27 16:04:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz

Posts: 4261

The least you could've done was make a new thread of the subject, asking people to respect each others opinion, act mature and not spam.

Priceless. Thanks for that

2013-09-27 16:07:00

Author:
Chazprime

Posts: 587

Priceless. Thanks for that

I was being vague when I said that. But clearly your lack of faith in the community only proves that the threads aren't the problem...Maybe you should think about that.

2013-09-27 16:36:00

Author:
comishguy67

Posts: 849

Wow.. At least the title of the thread has lived up to it's name. Lol

2013-09-27 16:57:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

I was being vague when I said that. But clearly your lack of faith in the community only proves that the threads aren't the problem...Maybe you should think about that.

You're reaching quite a bit on that one, but I applaud your efforts.

But don't let us stifle you; there are lots of sites whose doorsteps you can darken if you don't like it here.

2013-09-27 17:25:00

Author:
Chazprime

Posts: 587

But don't let us stifle you; there are lots of sites whose doorsteps you can darken if you don't like it here.That's the funny thing. They all signed up to be here and accepted to follow our rules. Nobody was dragged in, at least that I know of.We like getting feedback and it seems most like us and can follow those rules, except for a few. Interestingly enough those same folks are the few that have gotten warnings or infractions because they can't seem to follow those rules that they agreed to.

2013-09-27 18:00:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

You're reaching quite a bit on that one, but I applaud your efforts.

But don't let us stifle you; there are lots of sites whose doorsteps you can darken if you don't like it here.

I honestly try not to come here often. I came here posting facetiously just to get a laugh, but some of things you admins posted kinda ticked me off...So I felt the need to say something about it.

It's by all means YOUR website so you can do whatever the heck you want. I honestly don't care. But I feel the need to defend someone's right to talk about whatever the hell the want on a FORUM. If people can't do that respectfully and calmly as you so state in your rules, then maybe you should deal with those PEOPLE. But the topics brought up weren't anything inappropriate, so why delete them? Not everyone is a motor-typer who can't control their anger and what they say. THAT is the problem you should be concerned with.

And looking at the MM picks thread, you guys barely enforce your own rules. There was spam, sarcastic comments and hate up the booty and it took you 10 pages to close it down. Seems to me you guys just pick and choose whatever threads annoy you and deal with them how you want.

2013-09-27 18:44:00

Author:
comishguy67

Posts: 849

That's the funny thing. They all signed up to be here and accepted to follow our rules. Nobody was dragged in, at least that I know of.Ah. Well, I kind of forgot to mention this earlier, but a couple weeks ago I had a "Sign up for LBPC at gunpoint" campaign at a local mall. It went great, and the cops haven't found me yet either.

Seems to me you guys just pick and choose whatever threads annoy you and deal with them how you want.The 'hearting your own level' thread was reported multiple times and was also requested to be closed by the OP.

2013-09-27 18:46:00

Author:
Taffey

Posts: 3187

The 'hearting your own level' thread was reported multiple times and was also requested to be closed by the OP.

Oh really?

So I messaged a mod, and reported the off-topic posts, expecting that they'd post saying that we should stay on topic or message the derailers telling them to stop. However, much to my surprise, they locked the thread, which was, indeed, exactly what the derailers wanted. I messaged the mod asking them why they did that, and they replied, rather ambiguously, "We didn't like where it was headed," not telling me where it was headed. Did they think it would turn into off-topic drivel, or a crap storm of insults? I don't know.

2013-09-27 18:59:00

Author:
comishguy67

Posts: 849

Oh really?Pretty sure, I could have my threads backwards.

Regardless, it was reported multiple times by our very own OP the case of this particular thread, which alone answers your question about why one thread was locked versus another.

2013-09-27 19:02:00

Author:
Taffey

Posts: 3187

Oh really?

... What there goes against what Taffer just said again?

2013-09-27 19:02:00

Author:
RockSauron

Posts: 10882

... What there goes against what Taffer just said again?

The OP said that he didn't ask for it to be locked, but only for the mods to ask people to stop derailing the thread.

The 'hearting your own level' thread was reported multiple times and was also requested to be closed by the OP.

It was only reported by others because they were derailing it. That's why THEY need to be dealt with.

2013-09-27 19:05:00

Author:
comishguy67

Posts: 849

But Kala wasn't the topic creator? Where did mega say he didn't want his thread closed?

2013-09-27 19:07:00

Author:
RockSauron

Posts: 10882

But Kala wasn't the topic creator? Where did mega say he didn't want his thread closed?

Oh, whoops...sigh...nevermind then...

2013-09-27 19:08:00

Author:
comishguy67

Posts: 849

And looking at the MM picks thread, you guys barely enforce your own rules. There was spam, sarcastic comments and hate up the booty and it took you 10 pages to close it down. Seems to me you guys just pick and choose whatever threads annoy you and deal with them how you want.

Well you would be incorrect for assuming that. We generally delete posts/threads that other users are reporting...blame your community for that if you must.

It was only reported by others because they were derailing it. That's why THEY need to be dealt with.

Really? I wasn't aware that you had access to our reporting system

Again, don't assume that the mods are out doing as we please all of the time, we typically respond to issues that the community has a problem with.

2013-09-27 19:16:00

Author:
Chazprime

Posts: 587

Oh really?

I believe you said yourself us locking a thread was a judgement call. If you care to read that thread, you would see it was a bit of a train wreck as well as going nowhere. In fact the argument that was going on was rather silly in our opinions. ...besides all the reports asking us to do something.

Ta da... Judgement call.

2013-09-27 19:23:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

I believe you said yourself us locking a thread was a judgement call. If you care to read that thread, you would see it was a bit of a train wreck as well as going nowhere. In fact the argument that was going on was rather silly in our opinions. ...besides all the reports asking us to do something.

Ta da... Judgement call.

Ok, so clearly I'm not the best at getting my point across.

Bottom line: Thread = not problem. People in thread = Problem.

Locking a thread isn't ALWAYS a bad idea, but it doesn't deal with the bigger issue.

That's all I'm trying to say.

2013-09-27 19:41:00

Author:
comishguy67

Posts: 849

Locking a thread isn't ALWAYS a bad idea, but it doesn't deal with the bigger issue.

That's all I'm trying to say.I can certainly agree with that.

2013-09-27 21:00:00

Author:
Taffey

Posts: 3187

And...? What else are you supposed to do in a thread/discussion? Just agree with everyone?

lol... not at all. You must have misread, but no matter.

Appreciate the clarification!

2013-09-27 23:03:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

Imma limber up my typing fingers.

I hear what you're saying, but to be honest your quoting of Nazi and Russian propaganda speaks volumes about your feelings towards the staff & community here. And don't think that we didn't notice that you slipped the Russian back in after we took out the Nazi song (out of respect for our new German members). It's things like that that me think that you might really consider what Dav1d0 said on page one about "the responsibility of self-moderation".

This site and the people here have a long history and personal ties with media molecule and their games. If you want to come here and post things that you know will upset people, than you shouldn't be surprised at all by the response you're getting.

I knew that you would notice. I did not try to "sneak in" the Soviet song-that would be completely moronic. I know many people saw the German song, and I decided to replace it with the Soviet song to convey the general character of the quote without offending the German memebers. I even stated that right in the quote.

And if you have a problem with the quote, take it up with Ungreth. He wrote it, I simply thought it was fitting. I assumed people would realize it was over the top, but still realize the implications behind it. I thought that since it wasn't removed in its original context, I thought it wouldn't be removed here.

...except he won't agree. I think the man simply loves to argue no matter what. After reading that other thread a few more times it almost seems like no matter what anyone said or responded, he would argue the opposite or point out flaws in their reasoning. Lawyer training camp?

It didn't matter who started what or anything of the sort. Showing the first post he made as proof is a bit like showing a smiley pic of a 10 year old before he soaps the neighbor's windows. Now of course that is a stretch, but to me similar to accusing someone of hearting their level with a ton of alt accounts when all they said was they heart their levels. Like if I said I drive 3mph over the speed limit at times, I might as well go ahead and drive 120mph because they are both illegal. Exact same thing right? That is the Kalawishis spin on how we make a point! lol

Everyone could tell (well except Kalawishis) it was a thread that was crying out for something to be done. Kalawishis himself reported the off topic posts and if I remember correctly, pm'd Lady Luck to do something. Well.. she did. ...and since it seems he doesn't like others being nice all the time, then by golly maybe we locked it because we are just plain mean and grew weary of the silly argument that was going nowhere.

I love to argue? I'll take that as a compliment. I argued the opposite and pointed out flaws in their faulty reasoning? Gasp.

I showed the first post because people were saying that I was attacking people for their beliefs, and I showed them that to prove them wrong. I only argued back because my beliefs were being attacked by people.

But really, the whole "attacking other people for their beliefs" is misleading and implies that we were insulting other people and bullying. We did nothing of the sort. In essence, really, our beliefs contradicted, and debate naturally followed. One of the groups was wrong, and we were arguing over who. That's the point of debate. To misconstrue that as "attacking other people for their beliefs" is misleading.

And I really don't get this tendency of the mods to "call" how the thread will go (it'll go nowhere, it'll become a crap-storm, etc.), because we seriously don't know what will happen next. New people can join in, people can add new ideas, people can change their minds, etc. It's happened in threads like this one, Mm picks starting to go downhill, and the move pack thread, which segways me into my next point well, that is:

Debates aren't only good for convincing other people or convincing bystanders. They're also good for making the people debating to re-evaluate their beliefs. Having their ideas be subject to criticism will help them to reform them, and even change them. My opinion on hearting your own level changed quite a bit during the thread, although it may not look it. The thing is, the whole "debating is pointless, you're not going to convince each other" thing is rather wrong. Debating helps you reinforce your ideas, restructure them, and, in the long run, think more logically. If we didn't debate, our beliefs would probably be a lot dumber. Our faulty logic would never go uncorrected and our beliefs would never go unchallenged. So, while the debate may not look like it's going anywhere, it's actually doing quite a bit to the people debating. This fact, combined with the fact that we really don't know what will happen next, makes the whole belief that you can "see" what will happen to a debate and tell whether it's pointless or not rather wrong.

Onto the next man.

I don't have much to to say in this thread, but let me say this about "suppression of dissent"
I was born in a country where ancients of me 70 years ago lived in a terrible dictatorship. It was one of the darkest periods of mankind. After the war a different kind of dictatorship lives on in the formally GDR (German Democratic Republic). During this times a "wrong" opinion has been a reason to get imprisoned, tortured or killed by the gouvernment. THERE was supression of dissent.

I totally agree with you in one point: Whenever you think, somebody censor or persecute an individuals opinion, stand up and fight for his right to say his opinion. This is what free and brave minds have to do! Supression starts with censoring the freedom of speech.
It's good to complain when you have the feeling of being censored or supressed. So yes, I think it was a good idea to start this thread. So I respect your point of view.
But:
Quoting "supression of dissent" and using the song on page one (which thankfully is deleated -> a horrible song of a horrible period) is exaggerated and overreacted in my opinion, when we talk about LBPC.

Look, the pure existence of this thread proves that this site and the responsibles of this site respect every kind of opinion.
(For sure, some things must be moderated: bothering things, swearing and nasty stuff, spam, advertisement and so on).

I like a quotation of "Evelyn Beatrice Hall" which fits well and I think you will like it too:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

This also includes all the answeres from members or mods who have different opinions than you
If you or somebody else don't share my opinion to this, it's OK! We are individuals. If all of us would have exactly the same opinions, we wouldn't be human beings (and there would be nothing to debate in this thread)

I am glad to be part of this community and I never, really never had the feeling of being supressed or censored at LBPC

(Ha ha ha. Now I wrote much more, as I thought, when starting this post. Dear readers, forgive me that I wrote that much )

You may not agree with me, but it's good to see someone who believes in free speech with the same zeal that I do. But of course you wouldn't be suppressed. I've been through your post history and I don't think one word has come out of your mouth that directly challenged a belief, or, as some like to put it "attacked others for their beliefs", so of course you were never bothered. Free speech isn't protected so we can talk about the weather.

Down the page...

You sure are having fun with quoting others in order to flaunt your own ego huh? Well 2 can play at that game! *mew

(This thread has taken a turn for the interesting!)
Happy to see you are also having fun arguing with other people and not respecting their opinions.

(Yes, I used some fumetsuozo-esque language in there,)
Now you are comparing yourself to me? That can only end in good results ?That?s sarcasm btw?

(but I was hardly coming across as not accepting what other people thought of the matter. )
What?

(Seriously, bonner. Stop.)
Not only was that not accepting what he had to say. You also told him to stop, As in you didn?t respect his freedom of speech, Which means you were trying to tell him what to do. Which goes against this.

(Freedom of speech!)
Sounds like you are trying to control what he can or can't say to me. *mew

(We've handled the responsibility of self-moderation beautifully.)
And that?s because we have strict rules the site requests us to follow. You seriously think that without much rules anybody would bother to moderate themselves even half the time? It's because there are clear rules to follow that we do whatsoever. And you are not giving the mods half the credit they deserve. They do much more work around here then you?d think.

(So I messaged a mod, and reported the off-topic posts)
So? Let me get this straight. Even you needed a mod to try to get rid of somebody?s posts that you didn?t like? Not only does this mean you didn?t respect that person?s freedom of speech. But it also shows you don't believe in your own words that we have actually been greatly moderating ourselves well.

(Not to be rude, but that's pretty much definition hypocrisy. As in, not practicing what you preach, but it's not just that either. It's not holding yourself to the same standard that you hold other people to. Why should other people have to be nice when you can get away with being rude? What gives you that special privilege that even the mods and the admin don't have? Or are you only going to be nice when everybody else is nice? It's akin to an environmentalist who drives an SUV and keeps the lights on all day.)
Hey now, I can be hypocritical If I want to, And by your own words on freedom I should be allowed to. And what can I say? I find it funny. So I rarely will do it sometimes long as it's harmless. And I don't need anyone to give me special privilege. I give myself special privilege!.

Also a good example. if a guy eats some bad food often that gives him stomach pain. And tries to tell another guy that he shouldn?t eat that food because it?ll give him pain. Does this mean he shouldn?t be allowed to because it would make him a hypocrite? Of course he has the right to warn the other guy. Because of a good reason. He can tell that guy from his own experience that it's a bad idea. And that he doesn?t want others to do the same thing he did for their own sake.

(Why should we have to be happy in denial of reality? What's the good in that? Why should we have to keep things artificially positive? It'll just ruin the site quality, since we wouldn't be able to talk about things honest. )
So you?d prefer and want the site to be negative? Instead of at least trying to make things better? Great priorities there bud!.

("Brazil: Love it or leave it.")
So now we are comparing a single online forum to a whole country? Bit extreme I?d say. I?d see a forum such as this more like a semi big hobby club building. And yes. If you don't like the club rules. Especially when the club rules are only there to try to keep it's members nice. Then I?d say yes. Take it or leave it. There?s other clubs out there. No need to stink up the one you are in just for the sake of pride and stubbornness.

(so I proved them wrong)
That?s a stretch if I ever heard one. *mew

(There was also hypocrisy in this thread, so I pointed that out-you can't really expect to get away with hypocrisy, after all, and he was using it as wrongful justification for his actions.)
I shouldn?t be allowed to get away with it? that sounds like to me you are trying to control what I and others can or can not say. Which strongly goes against what you have been complaining about here.

And nice job taking this whole subject way to seriously with trying to compare things to being Nazi around here. Hey folks watch out. Next you know he'll start looking for real life famous criminals to compare us all to. ;P

I gotta say. Not only are you taking all of this Waaaaay to seriously. It also seems to me that it really is just a case of you wanting to win the augments no matter what you have to say in order to do so isn?t it? Well here?s some news. It's not working. Have fun with your game over screen.

PS: I wasn?t going to keep replying but I found all of this way to amusing to pass up on~

Did you misconstrue everything?

First off, if I didn't respect other people's opinions here, then why would I take the time to respond to them all? I could always just ignore them, or give nonsensical answers, or worst of all, say, "Wow. How cute." Debating people is really the ultimate respect you can give to their opinions, because you are showing that you recognize them as legitimate.

Off-topic posts do not constitute free speech. They're, in fact, the ultimate disrespect for other people's beliefs. It's like two people debating and one person not even listening to the other, but rather yelling "La la laaaaaaa." How much respect does that show? They are not contributing, or adding an opinion, or debating-they are deliberately trying to destroy the thread, and here, due to our moderators' actions, it's even worse. It's akin to playing a loud noise over people talking, in this case, forever, since the thread was locked. Add that to fact that being off-topic is against site rules, but debating is not. There is a phrase in the site rules that says debates will be watched over more closely, but that's it.

By "you can't expect to be hypocritical and get away with it", I meant that you can't expect to be hypocritical and not have your hypocrisy called out on you. I wasn't implying that people should be punished by site rules for being hypocritical. And your food-poisoning analogy is absurd. Hypocrisy isn't a guy eating food, getting stomach pain, and telling other people to not eat the food; it's a guy eating food, getting stomach pain, telling other people to not eat the food, and then eating the food again. You're an excellent case of column B. You promote positivity and kindness, and yet you are (self-admittedly, mind you) often rude to other people. I'm not insulting you, you literally admitted this yourself.

And I'd prefer this site to be negative and honest instead of positive and in denial. I think this doesn't need an explanation. Realism is better than blind optimism.

And for the "love it or leave it": the matter still stands that just because we can leave doesn't mean that we shouldn't make an effort to improve this site. That's common sense, even with it being easier to leave a forum than a country.

And for your last point-that is, I just want to win arguments. If that was true, then why did I change my mind in Mm picks starting to go downhill? Why didn't I argue it into the ground?

Next man. Page 4 now. Most of this is just stuff I've argued against already in this post. Good to see someone somewhat agrees with me. Some stuff coming up.

Well you would be incorrect for assuming that. We generally delete posts/threads that other users are reporting...blame your community for that if you must.

So, rather than abide by the rules, you just abide by reports? I guess it's a good explanation for why so many spam cans are not dealt with, but seriously, how irresponsible is that? The rules, the rules you hold us up to, that we're meant to abide by, you hold up as loose as a single knotted shoelace. If this isn't irresponsibility I don't know what is. Mods are meant to hold up the rules-that's literally the main job of a mod. And whatever happened to "debates will be monitored more closely"? Surely you would have been looking at Mm picks starting to go downhill and seeing the utter derailing and spam can-heck, a lot of you even posted in there-but you did nothing about it. And you aren't even taking responsibility for that. Yes, the community is at fault for not reporting them-but that doesn't absolve you of all blame.

The point could be raised that you can't monitor everything and you have to listen to reports in the same way police listen to 911 calls, but you could at least take a better look at what is happening. Don't just take reports at face value-look at them, who made them, what they are accusing the other post of doing. Look at the thread and see who is the derailer, who broke the site rules, and the debater, who didn't. Pretty much, look to see who really broke the rules.

Looking to see what will happen.

2013-09-28 04:04:00

Author:
Kalawishis

Posts: 928

Well, I can see where this is going.

@ Kalawishis

In conclusion, I'll say the same thing that I said to comish: there are many other sites out there that you can choose to frequent if you don't like the way this site is run, by all means feel free to go somewhere else. And the next time you kill a thread with your bickering, please don't open another one to keep it going.

2013-09-28 05:07:00

Author:
Chazprime

Posts: 587

In conclusion, I'll say the same thing that I said to comish: there are many other sites out there that you can choose to frequent if you don't like the way this site is run, by all means feel free to go somewhere else. And the next time you kill a thread with your bickering, please don't open another one to keep it going.

I've already addressed (and refuted) all of this stuff in my other posts, which were in response to posts which you were recycling from. I don't know what you meant to achieve with this. I will, however, refute this for convenience.

On leaving if I'm unhappy: Just because I can leave if I want doesn't mean I shouldn't try to improve this forum. That's a rather destructive attitude-one can only wonder what would happen if people here just left instead of fixing problems. I don't want to leave for the same reason you guys became moderators: I like this site, and I want to improve it.

On "ruining" threads: A lot of people didn't think we were bickering. Bickering is two kids fighting over a game console, or how much food they got. Really, the only difference between bickering and arguing is the structure of the argument. Bickering is a bunch of one line, "Well you didn't do this so I don't have to do this"-esque phrases. Argument is a belief backed up by points backed up by reasons. Bickering has no structure (and is usually just done because the participants don't like each other) and thus collapses or goes nowhere. Arguments do, and thus we don't really know what will happen. From there I quote my own post, which you may or may not have read:

And I really don't get this tendency of the mods to "call" how the thread will go (it'll go nowhere, it'll become a crap-storm, etc.), because we seriously don't know what will happen next. New people can join in, people can add new ideas, people can change their minds, etc. It's happened in threads like this one, Mm picks starting to go downhill, and the move pack thread, which segways me into my next point well, that is:

Debates aren't only good for convincing other people or convincing bystanders. They're also good for making the people debating to re-evaluate their beliefs. Having their ideas be subject to criticism will help them to reform them, and even change them. My opinion on hearting your own level changed quite a bit during the thread, although it may not look it. The thing is, the whole "debating is pointless, you're not going to convince each other" thing is rather wrong. Debating helps you reinforce your ideas, restructure them, and, in the long run, think more logically. If we didn't debate, our beliefs would probably be a lot dumber. Our faulty logic would never go uncorrected and our beliefs would never go unchallenged. So, while the debate may not look like it's going anywhere, it's actually doing quite a bit to the people debating. This fact, combined with the fact that we really don't know what will happen next, makes the whole belief that you can "see" what will happen to a debate and tell whether it's pointless or not rather wrong.

I'm pretty much saying there that debates are unpredictable and have hidden perks, so it's not very wise to "call" them.

2013-09-28 05:55:00

Author:
Kalawishis

Posts: 928

I've already addressed (and refuted) all of this stuff in my other posts, which were in response to posts which you were recycling from. I don't know what you meant to achieve with this. I will, however, refute this for convenience.

On leaving if I'm unhappy: Just because I can leave if I want doesn't mean I shouldn't try to improve this forum. That's a rather destructive attitude-one can only wonder what would happen if people here just left instead of fixing problems. I don't want to leave for the same reason you guys became moderators: I like this site, and I want to improve it.

On "ruining" threads: A lot of people didn't think we were bickering. Bickering is two kids fighting over a game console, or how much food they got. Really, the only difference between bickering and arguing is the structure of the argument. Bickering is a bunch of one line, "Well you didn't do this so I don't have to do this"-esque phrases. Argument is a belief backed up by points backed up by reasons. Bickering has no structure (and is usually just done because the participants don't like each other) and thus collapses or goes nowhere. Arguments do, and thus we don't really know what will happen. From there I quote my own post, which you may or may not have read:

I'm pretty much saying there that debates are unpredictable and have hidden perks, so it's not very wise to "call" them.

Totally your opinion. You really have proven nothing. Your victory is all in your mind. The consensus here is we do a great job, but yes we are human, we have jobs so we aren't / can't be here 24/7, and are volunteers that were asked to serve in this role.

True there are some that disagree, but even in a landslide election there are still votes to the opposite. ..and since you probably didn't read what I said earlier I shall quote myself. lol

That's the funny thing. They all signed up to be here and accepted to follow our rules. Nobody was dragged in, at least that I know of.We like getting feedback and it seems most like us and can follow those rules, except for a few. Interestingly enough those same folks are the few that have gotten warnings or infractions because they can't seem to follow those rules that they agreed to.

So you can argue and misconstrue posts all you want, but it really hasn't changed our opinions. You yourself agree that you simply like to argue and call it a process, but we have a site to run and rules to follow. ...and again whether you like it or not, you agreed to those rules upon joining.

...and one more time, true you may not have been the one that started it in that other thread, but by even saying that you admit something did happen. I possibly chose an ill word to describe it. (attacking) However, you were debating everyone no matter what side they were on. As much as you found that thread worthwhile, nobody else did. So to me, that is quite selfish especially since you were starting to upset others. So one more time, we didn't care who started it. With all the off topic posts, it was easier to lock the thread rather than as I like to say, herding chickens. The thread only served one purpose, you. That is a silly selfish, self righteous reason to have us to go to pm's to get everyone back on track so you can go back to arguing whoever posted next... that is IF anyone posted anything else on topic.

I will never ever be able to have you admit to any of this. However the funny thing is, you admit you enjoy this site as well as debating. So find something useful to discuss and start a thread, find another one that interests you, or go play on youtube where it is a free for all and seemingly no mods at all.

This thread is getting a bit old and tiresome. At some point, you will be the last one to post and the rest of us aren't going to participate.

All the best.

2013-09-28 11:13:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

That seems a bit harsh. To me the top post comes across as someone noticing a problem and bringing it up to better us all. I haven't followed the Heart Yourself thread, but I've noticed cases of derailment on occasion, and the core argument here that locking threads only rewards the derailers makes sense (and has not been refuted).

Maybe the solution could be that people report these derailment posts in stead of replying to them in the thread?

2013-09-28 12:45:00

Author:
Rogar

Posts: 2284

I just read the topic title a knew how this thread would go, so pretty much skipped a majority of this thread.

Honestly the "disturbing trend" is all of our faults.

I agree with Kalawis that it is an issue, but I dont think its one earned by LBPC specifically. I have been on MANY forums, and usually threads that are very controversial, end up offending people and then the name calling and insults begin, thus defeating the point of the thread in the first place. And this happens pretty much everywhere.

I do not see what was wrong with TC first post, and believe me, he going to express his views when he has 10 different people going against his points, which he also anticipated in the topic message. But this also foreshadows a doomed thread, ironically tying into the topic.

Many times, we argue that LBP should be a more mature community, *insert speech about being open out topics and moderation, but at the end of the day, with so many different faces on the internet, there will never be a true consensus. This isnt about moderation, but more respect and continuity.

If you disagree with someone, be respectful to their views and if you reach a stalemate, move on. Nobody is right on the internet, and no one gets an award for getting the last word in, if anything, it looks childish from a spectator.

The moderators are not just closing threads because they are getting heated debates or because they feel like it; its because the topics begin getting off track and turn into insult battles.

Its not about being a positive site, or an "anti-negetive" site. Its just about being a respectful and approachable site.

2013-09-28 17:16:00

Author:
Rpg Maker

Posts: 877

All right, I think we'll end this here. If you guys can't be respectful of others, then we'll have to close this down.

2013-09-28 17:56:00

Author:
Chazprime

Posts: 587

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