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What makes a level good?

Archive: 54 posts

Ok, this is an experiment. It sounds really intriguing to me:

I would like to have a thread dedicated to discussing what makes you enjoy a level, and what mistakes should be avoided to give players a good experience.

Here are my first few. Feel few to throw in your own or argue mine:

1. There is a difference between challenging and frustrating. Challenging levels can be fun, but frustrating levels rarely are. I know this sounds obvious but many level authors don't know the difference. In order to make their levels "challenging" they add REALLY frustrating and touchy jumping sequences, and easy ways to die.

2. Be Fair. The player should always be able to make an intelligent decision to help them survive. Even after a player dies, they should always feel like it could have been avoided.

3. Don't give the player a reason to quit. Long, complex puzzles in a single area can certainly cause a player to give up. Make the player feel like they are always moving, always doing something.

2009-01-28 03:25:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

I agree with all of those, especially the first. It can be hard to tell the difference between challenging and frustrating sometimes when creating, but it's obvious when playing someone else's work. People are different in their ... tolerance of being challenged too.

A big thing for me is Polish, for lack of a better term, which encompasses a lot of things - checkpoints in bad spots, objects which shouldn't be moveable, getting stuck or killed due to "bugs" which could have been designed differently, and many other little things like that. I also love decorations and levels with good visual style, or at least visuals that appeal to me.

2009-01-28 03:43:00

Author:
Shalatii

Posts: 103

Definately some good ones.

You know, one thing that occurred to me a few minutes ago when I was playing seems to be a problem with many levels: Touchy Floors.

What I mean is you can have a floor design that ends up shifting you between the background and the foreground in a way that the player doesn't expect. Usually this happens when the designer has done something too complex in a small space.

2009-01-28 03:57:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

I know this will most likely end at the bottom of the list, but blatant spelling errors really turn me off playing many levels.

2009-01-28 06:49:00

Author:
Morrinn3

Posts: 493

I know this will most likely end at the bottom of the list, but blatant spelling errors really turn me off playing many levels.

I agree, or using "leet speak" or using words like "lol" and such, it just seems so unprofessional.

2009-01-28 06:59:00

Author:
Whalio Cappuccino

Posts: 5250

How about multiple paths? A great level would have me playing again just to see where I could have gone instead of where I already did.

2009-01-28 07:04:00

Author:
Trap_T

Posts: 431

Good points in the OP and certainly the spelling one.

- Redundant space. A lot of people have long hallways, or even stairs. Walking and/or jumping with nothing to see and nothing to dodge is no fun, it's boring and unneccesary. Make sure you limit that stuff.

- Too much text. I've played a lot of levels (even great ones) that just have to many text bubbles. This gets especially bad if every single one is in cutscene camera, it drags you out of the mood. A level in LBP is not a novel, it's likely your not so good a writer that people would like to read half the time instead of playing the level.

Wait I'm now saying what doesn't make a good level, let me get more positive.

- Use sound. Most contraptions, doors, platforms, enemies etc. become a lot more alive if they make sound.

- Use music, but not switch it around to much. Switching the music might break the immersion, it depends on the situation but if you switch around the music too much it nearly always starts to stand out. Experiment with the interactive pieces of music, use the different sliders to evoke a mood (more drums, less melody for a high tempo section for example) this way you can more smoothly change your music.

That's if for me for now

2009-01-28 07:26:00

Author:
Wyth

Posts: 263

I know it may not seem right to place visuals over gameplay, but I really do show more preference to aesthetics than anything else. Before you even move your sackboy, you are immediately given an onslaught of optical stimulation when entering a level and I believe that this is the first impression. Even with a great and innovative gameplay idea, I just can't see myself coming back to it if it has no style and polish. Things as simple as symmetry and proportion, and the style of architecture, even when skewed and abstract is either an immediate positive or an immediate negative for me. From lighting to color correction, it all gives you the venue for your playing experience. Polish would also encompass the choice of music and the implementation of sounds.

I often play alot of levels that are so conceptually great, that I wish I could copy and give some final touches to and redetail, then send them back to the author lol

Often I'll react to an amazing experience with alot of hyperbole and gushing praise, because the concept or visual impact is just so powerful and lingering. These are the levels I'll bring people to, and play with them. After awhile, even these begin to fade and it seems that very few levels can stand the test of time past the initial shock and awe.

Fun definitely factors in... I enjoy challenge, and innovation... a design that motivates a person to try and try again no matter the adversity. Originality is a big deal to me as well. If you have a single story object in your level that isn't an LED light, a thin object, or some such justifiable effect thing... then I won't take it seriously, and just overlook it's flaws.

In terms of dialogue, I either look for introspective merit and depth, great narration and storytelling, or humour and entertainment. I need it to be cohesive, well written, tasteful and really belong in the level. It must serve to move the experience along and enhance it, rather than just being a placeholder, tacked on for good measure as an afterthought.

I really can't tell you what makes one level superb, another great, one terrible... and one a true and timeless classic. I have a few levels I can see myself playing for the long run -

Voltiare's "H.A.T.E."
sighwhatever's "Sackboy's Inferno" series

...are a couple I can think of off the top of my head out of my huge hearts list that will never fail me. Even something as initially amazing and awesome as Little Dead Space just doesn't keep me coming back, once the "wow" factor wears off. It's really a byproduct of the fact that what's good in LBP evolves and progresses every second, and one week what you thought was 5 stars is now 4 star material.

I think the staying-power of levels, no matter how great, is terribly downgraded by the on-demand nature of LBP as well. Why play this level again, when you can play a 1000 new ones? I'll be interested to see a year from now how amazing creations will be, and what we'll think of our earlier favorites and our earlier works.

2009-01-28 11:37:00

Author:
Unknown User

I wrote a guide about polishing levels before publishing them a long time ago (read - nearly 2 months). I tried to cover some of the many things creators overlook from improving their level and making it "great". The link to it is here (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=t=5473), just read the bolded text if you want the main points.

I'm personally not that good a platformer. I do like challenging levels, but I hate it when a level is just too hard. Something like the Bunker in the story mode was just awful for me, it really punished people who would be cautious, and I just hate levels like that.

I think great levels have a good art style, good engineering of what they want to achieve, a decent amount of point bubbles and points to try and encourage replays for high scores, and options that do reward players if they come back again. Things like sticker switches, multiple paths and level keys can all do this in one way or another.

Sound is another thing that's overlooked. Anyone can make a door, just get a block of material and attach a piston to it. But it shows attention to detail when they put sound effects to match it. Music is also overlooked but is important to setting the mood.

Finally, I'm discovering that lighting is one more thing that's overlooked too easily. Great lighting can really set the scene mood wise and guide the player in subtle ways. Plus it just looks cool too.

Ah, I almost forgot story. I enjoy levels that give a reason why you are there, and a plot that moves along. Not all levels have to have a story rivalling Shakespeare, but a decent plot can help with overall immersion in a level.

2009-01-28 11:43:00

Author:
Elbee23

Posts: 1280

This is great stuff! I'm getting more information in this thread than I expected - I hope it continues.

I was actually thinking of compiling all of this into a "tip" document that people could use to improve their levels (obviously with a credit for people who provided the feedback. Not planning on taking credit, promise!) Elbee23 - I read your tip list and this is going to come from a COMPLETELY different direction. More the "psychology" end than the technical how-to end.

*********************

One thing that is interesting - every author who has responded in this thread has fantastic, non-frustrating, ambient, and FUN levels (I've played them).

Do any of you have specific job experience that helps to build these levels? (I'm a classic video game designer from the mid-80's, and I'm a programmer, so that's my experience.... but I'm not very visual so my levels are all fairly simple visually).

2009-01-28 11:52:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

A few thoughts, though I'll try to stay away from what has already been said (since I pretty much agree with all of it):

As much as I hate to say it, you can't underrate the importance of stunning visuals. Now, visuals don't MAKE a great level on their own, but if the gameplay is solid visuals are often the tipping point between good and amazing.

And detail isn't the only aspect here. I'm talking mood lighting everywhere, flawless seams in the materials comprising objects and superstructure, SHAPING of the superstructure (drawing freehand with circle, polygon etc. looks awful... yet so many people do it - it's all about the corner editor!), full use of 2.5D environment. Camera angles, stickers, hiding dark matter bolts, lifts that stop flush with their respective floors.... ok you get my idea. I'm a stickler for visual polish.

I'm with Ninja on going 100% custom content. Obviously some pre-made objects have to be used since they cannot be created (bottles, vases, etc), but when I see things like the jade snake in a level, my enthusiasm for the level dies, because it comes across as a cheap ripoff. If you're going to re-use an idea, at least have the decency to remake it and put your own personal touch to it.

Those extra touches that really make or break a mood involve heavy use of dialogue, cameras, sound effects, music effects, and plain old surprises.

Machinery is another biggie. I can't tell you how many levels I play that contain virtually no moving parts, no switches, etc. Moving things are fun to look at and make gameplay interesting. I recently built a turret that, design-wise, is relatively uninteresting. It doesn't pop up... it's a static turret that shoots directly ahead. I spiced it up by having the "gun" part of it flip 180 degrees before shooting. Oh, and it also emits electrified force field "shielding" when in its closed configuration. It's only the coolest turret I've ever seen now... Doors are another great example. They can retract, or they can be a lot cooler, and split apart. Or they can interlock like puzzle pieces that look even cooler when they do split apart by rotating in opposite directions.

These are small differences that really stand out in a level. It translates directly into longer creation time, but for me, I won't compromise because I demand this kind of attention to detail.

Now, gameplay is really where good levels shine. LittleDeadSpace is one of the prettiest levels out there, not to mention it's suspenseful and moody (which I attribute its astounding success to) - but where the hell is the gameplay? Without its visual and emotional shine, there is nothing to it.

My biggest gripe about poor gameplay is pretty simple... lack of innovation. Anyone who has followed my posts at LBW knows that my biggest peeve deathtrap is slabs of electrified or firey material embedded in the ground. I'm talking plain old rectangular slabs stuck in series in the floor. They look like crap... they're hard, and boring as hell. Good gameplay does NOT equal beating a player over the head with the difficulty stick.

Rotating sponges are also done to death. I've used them, though again, my own personal touch involved slapping spikes around one side; something I've yet to see anywhere else. I will probably never use them again.

Pathing! Pathing! Pathing! This one can be challenging depending on the theme of your level. Having the player running along a flat horizontal surface for any length of time is fun suicide. Slopes, plane jumping, jumping obstacles, jumping PERIOD, keep the user infinitely more interested. This was one of my biggest challenges in my MGS level, since it's indoors and, well, buildings typically have flat horizontal floors.

I could go on forever on the subject, but it seems I am procrastinating here at work, so better end this now before it comes to be an unreadable wall o text.

2009-01-28 19:18:00

Author:
Thegide

Posts: 1465

Okay, TheGide: I'm going to challenge you to something - just one bit of your post (the only one I would disagree with slightly). The circles and polygons:

Splat Invaders Saga has gotton a lot of attention lately by the top developers on this site, and is in the current spotlight. I want you to go out and play through the whole thing.

It is difficult to put "rules" on shapes. In general you are correct, but it all depends on the graphical style. Virtually every single piece of this entire level is either a square, a circle, or a polygon. The background lettering are squares stuck together, the aliens are little squares stuck together, the mothership is triangles with edges clipped off. The turrents are a circle with a square stuck to it. Even the end "reactor" core is, in effect, a great big circle with a polygon sitting in the middle (but once you see it in motion you will probably say "holy shnikies!"

So why is it getting accolades? Simple reason: style and it is FUN. If you look at my other levels, you will see that I am capable of some nice visuals, however this level was purposely designed with a specific style which only includes simple shapes.

I would love to know what you think.

2009-01-28 19:36:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Sure, I'll give it a try and leave some feedback, but I think I might not have explained myself clearly.

I see no problem in using predefined shapes for artistic purposes, and from what you've described with space invaders saga, it's exactly this and I commend your creativity while maintaining such simplicity.

What I'm getting at more is lazy creation. Let's say you are drawing a cavern. You start with a giant slab of rock and wish to carve a path through it. There are two approaches you can take.

Lazy creator A reaches for a polygon tool, and holds triangle whilst carving a path into the structure. The result of which is a cave where the floor and ceiling are always equally separated by distance. The floor and ceiling walls are a mess of vertices caused by an unstable hand trying to carve in seemingly random fashion. These extra vertices add nothing to the shape, simply take up thermo. Next this creator grabs the circle tool to draw some "grass" on the floor of his cavern. He attempts to trace the floor of the cavern, but again an unstable hand make it look like a squiggled mess of uniform thickness and extra vertices that burn thermo.

Creator B has thermo in mind and wants a less sloppy looking cave. He starts with a slab of rock, and cuts a hole in it with the square shape. Using the corner editor, he carefully places each vertex to generate a precise cavern shape. Gentle undulated slopes are drawn with minimal vertices, leaving extra room for the stalactites in the ceiling, which still appear largely random in nature even though they are for the most part, triangular. To add grass, he places a small block of green sponge and stretches it along the length of the cavern floor. The grass is shaped to match the rock floor, and he carefully places vertices to give the illusion of different thickness of grass along the way, leaving a much more polished Mm-style look.

I guess what I'm getting at is the polygon tools are poor choices for shaping and drawing complex structures when used as "click and drag" type tools. I'm not saying the shape tools are not extremely useful nor that they cannot be used artistically, I just think that they are commonly misused due to lack of experience or laziness.

Does this make better sense now?

2009-01-28 20:13:00

Author:
Thegide

Posts: 1465

Actually, this is the perfect example. When I first created my "Dante's Temple" level I followed the "Lazy Creator A" because I was not really familiar with the tools yet. When I wanted to pretty it up at the end I had almost no thermo left, but had gained some experience. I went back, applied squares over the top of each section, and used the corner tool to do exactly what you just mentioned. My thermo went down about 35% and I was able to heavily improve the whole thing.

Great comment!

(but you should still play Splat Invaders Saga. Check out the showcase thread - it's really funny. I was tearing up laughing the other day while I was reading some of the posts. A great read.)

2009-01-28 20:38:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Machinery is another biggie. I can't tell you how many levels I play that contain virtually no moving parts, no switches, etc. Moving things are fun to look at and make gameplay interesting. I recently built a turret that, design-wise, is relatively uninteresting. It doesn't pop up... it's a static turret that shoots directly ahead. I spiced it up by having the "gun" part of it flip 180 degrees before shooting. Oh, and it also emits electrified force field "shielding" when in its closed configuration. It's only the coolest turret I've ever seen now... Doors are another great example. They can retract, or they can be a lot cooler, and split apart. Or they can interlock like puzzle pieces that look even cooler when they do split apart by rotating in opposite directions.

Reading this reminded me of another important point. Story characters, by their very nature, sit in the one spot, say their thing, and then the player moves on.

Visually though, this can look really boring. Giving them wobble bolts, pistons, strings, anything to have them moving and jumping around makes them visually a lot more appealing and interesting. Take the story character in the MGS story levels. It's just a sticker of a face, yes. But it pops up in different ways, like on screens that move. This makes the whole story character aspect a whole lot more interesting.

Sure, anyone can have a square piece of material, put a sticker on and attach a magic mouth. But it's just far more interesting when they make them a bit more animated. It helps with player immersion.

2009-01-29 03:49:00

Author:
Elbee23

Posts: 1280

This is the short definition of a level to me:

A series of obstacles or challenges that must be overcome.

Very simple concept. Start out with that, and as you get better, work on some cool new ideas.

2009-01-29 05:48:00

Author:
Tyler

Posts: 663

Great thread Ccubbage, here are some thoughts:

Fun factor: This is the single most important thing as far as I am concerned. We play videogames as a form of entertainment and if the creator can make a level that is fun to play then I can easily overlook it's flaws. Of course what makes a level fun will differ from person to person. I personally have all kinds of levels hearted from story-driven stuff to mini-games to vehicle based levels to simple visual feasts. I have no preference in terms of level type, just put a lot of effort into your creation to make it an enjoyable experience.

Visuals/Polish: This is of supreme importance. Others have already covered everything I wanted to say on this aspect but I would like to reiterate the importance of the overall polish. Are the checkpoints colored? Does the level have a custom icon? Is the race post colored/decorated? All of these things add to the overall polish and when I play a level that checks all these boxes then needless to say I am impressed.

Originality: I want to play levels that show me something new. I want to say wow. I want to experience innovative gameplay elements that have not been done before. I personally try to implement 3-4 elements that are completely original into all of my levels and I truly believe this is one of the best ways to make your level stand out and gain the respect/admiration of your fellow creators.

Custom content: Ninja already mentioned the importance of this and I would like to reinforce it. I am very comfortable saying that I was the one of the first (if not the first lol) people on these forums to champion and emphasize the importance of custom content and I continue to do so to this day. Why is it so important? For a number of reasons. First it guarantees that everything the player will be seeing is new and fresh. The importance of this really can't be overstated. Second it shows that you really cared about your creation and spent countless hours constructing these things instead of going the lazy route and using the story stuff. Third it really makes the level your own and adds that personal touch and in many cases your custom creations will look better then anything MM has done (there are many creators who I admire in this regard but NinjaMicWZ and Jaeyden in particular make some beautiful custom creations). Something that is largely overlooked is custom lettering. Most people use those ugly stickers from story mode to write out text instead of taking 15 minutes to create their own letters - in their own style - which looks infinitely better. Even the opening of LittleDeadSpace uses story sticker lettering and that level otherwise has outstanding polish. Although I have hearted levels that use a lot of story stuff becuase they were otherwise fantastic, I have to say that it is becoming more and more of a turn-off seeing the same mushroom tree, scientist etc.

Story: I guess I am a little biased here since my levels are story-driven but I really appreciate a great tale. Some of my favorite levels have epic/immersive story's with fantastic writing that keeps me engaged from beginning to end. Obviously everything should make sense and "lol's" and not capitalizing I's etc looks very unprofessional so the writing really does require as much polish as everything else.

A level in LBP is not a novel

Correction, LBP is whatever the creator wants it to be, period. That is the beauty of the game.

1. There is a difference between challenging and frustrating. Challenging levels can be fun, but frustrating levels rarely are. I know this sounds obvious but many level authors don't know the difference. In order to make their levels "challenging" they add REALLY frustrating and touchy jumping sequences, and easy ways to die.

I have said the same thing time and time again. A level author needs to ask themselves if most players will restart the lvl 10x due to unnecessary deaths just so they can say they cleared it. The fact is that there are so many great levels waiting to be discovered that - except in rare cases - I just can't be bothered trying to clear something that is way too challenging/frustrating. I consider myself pretty hardcore and I love a great challenge but there definitely needs to be a balance. I personally don't put too much importance on a "sense of achievement" by finishing a difficult level. My sense of achivement in LBP comes from creating high quality levels and being acknowledged by my peers.

There is a whole lot more I can write but it would probably end up being a novella if I did lol. There have been some great posts here and I look forward to more members thoughts.

2009-01-29 07:02:00

Author:
OCK

Posts: 1536

Anything that leaves a smile on your face

2009-01-29 10:16:00

Author:
Unknown User

Anything that leaves a smile on your face

I just played Distress in Ocean, not sure how I missed it before, and the giant crab made me chuckle out loud. Doesn't have to be especially hard to be brilliant, as that level demonstrates. Goes without saying that you lot like 'em a lot harder than I do, but many people throw in something ridiculously hard or impossible to suss out simply through lack of originality or creative thought - I think.
You are absolutely right about "Distress in Ocean". It is a great example of "non-frustrating" gameplay. However, it is possible to have "Challenging" gameplay without it being "Frustrating" (even though some people don't even like "challenging" gameplay).

Interestingly, I remember when you first joined the forum you mentioned you were a novice player. So, you may like different levels of challenge than I do. But even an easy game can be frustrating (maybe little peril, but uneven floors that make you move forward and back in a way that's unexpected).

2009-01-29 12:13:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

2009-01-29 12:54:00

Author:
Unknown User

I am much better equipped to take on a challenge now, Ccubbage! Don't like them too Fisher Price as it's pointless but saying that, I've seen levels with barely a challenge in them that still have the WoW! factor in terms of originality & effort ... but I probably wouldn't revisit. As has been said here, there is a fine-ish line between making levels hard enough to make the player not rest until they've done it & making the player want to hurl something heavy at the screen.
Have played a few that have been great to start off with & then there comes a bit when I simply cannot figure out what to do - I'll give it about 3-4 minutes of jumping, grabbing/pulling/pushing.....no speech bubble with the tiniest clue - and I'm out the door then, annoyed! Maybe I have a seriously low patience threshold, attention span or am just thick?!
See if they put a thread on the showcase here. If they did, put a comment telling them what your experience was and what confused you.

Which brings me to another subject....

PLAY TEST USING OTHER OBJECTIVE PEOPLE, AND DON'T BE HARD HEADED!!!!

Not everyone is right when they give you advice, but if you hear the same complaint several times there is a good chance you need to change something. Unfortunately, once a level is open to the world you only get things like "Frustrating" or "Nerve wracking" without details as to WHY.

The way I personally do this is:

I publish my new level in a "locked" state
I use a locking level, which has a combination lock and a key to my new level (I have a copyable 4 digit combination lock level online if anyone needs one)
I send my 4-digit code to my friends here (helps to have good, objective authors as friends. Mine are actually much better authors than me).
I wait for private feedback telling me the issues they had with the game
Make changes
Publish, and put a showcase here
LISTEN to feedback and make necessarily (some times, er..., creative) changes.

One author I personally use all the time is "Risen" (Blorf online) (please don't ask him to be your tester.... I don't want to get in trouble by having him go crazy from messages). He is 100% objective, INCREDIBLY logical, and is ALWAYS right (by the way, to see one of the most well-thought-out puzzle games ever try "Metal Revolution"). Sometimes there is nothing I can think of doing based on the LBP tools, but he is still always right from a design standpoint.

2009-01-29 13:42:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Next in my list is originality, this can be either visual or gameplay. It's pretty boring to complete another full vr material mgs turret shooter level. But if it includes fun new mechanics, really cool puzzles or is almost entirely painted white (yes I'm referring to Hate.2) i'll gladly heart it!

Last is probably the Gameplay/platforming aspect, this is what will get me to play the level again, but if the level fits into most of the descriptions above i'll completely oversee any bad gameplay. Not saying its unimportant but from my point of view a level doesn't have to have good gameplay to be good.

2009-01-30 22:22:00

Author:
Marklin80

Posts: 458

Although I have only been apart of this forum for less than a month, I have to say that OCKS love for custom content has rubbed off on me. While creating, I think most of the fun is in the challenge "How on earth will I get that to work?" and finally figuring it out rocks. Also, recently I have learnt a whole lot about what makes a level good. Imo the corner editor tool is gold. Also, stick with a colour/material scene! If you use random materials it will ruin it! There are times where you can change it: going underwater from above ground, entering/exiting a cave etc, but there is no reason that one level with temple stone, stone bricks, aztec stone, and aztec jade, should lead into another room, in the same complex, with beige cotton, sponge, glass and oak wood.

There are a few good tutorials on this site, and the ones that I found most useful are Elbee's and there is one about polish, and making "sections", using corner editer, and using the grid.

Also, OCK and others, if you have anything else to add to your posts, you may think it sounds like waffle, but to a fairly new creator such as my self, the advice is invaluable!

2009-01-30 23:44:00

Author:
dkjestrup

Posts: 672

For me the visual aspect of a level is the most important, its the first impression you get, its what you are going to look at in the next ten minutes after you start the level and its usually what you are going to remember about the level.
This doesn't mean that i think gameplay is unimportant, its just that i can give a really high rating to a level which is visually stunning but has almost no gameplay and i will probably give a level a medium rating if it doesn't look any good.
A in the foundation bad level gets a high rating if it has a good look, a level which is really good but looks bad will get a lower rating and a level which is good and has mediocre visuals will get a high rating.

I personally think gameplay is most important - but Visuals are a close second.

For instance, what are some of the most recognizable games of all time? Space invaders, Pacman..... not by todays standard the best graphics however video game collections are still being released with these - and selling well.

Myst has FANTASTIC graphics, but let's face it..... there is practically no gameplay.

The same goes with many games in LittleBigPlanet (I'm not going to mention any by name) - I've seen a number of games in LBP where the graphics were AMAZING. However, the floors were uneven, when you tried to jump it would jump from the foreground to the background uncontrollably... some of them were beautiful but unplayable.

Now, virtually every author in this particular thread I feel has great game-creation skill so I'm going to pick 1 - OCX's "The Legion" (I could pick Splat Invaders Saga, but I'm trying to be objective here....). Beautiful graphics, but the gameplay behind it is perfect - he understands that the player doesn't want to fight the game, so even though his games are challenging they are incredibly fun to play and aren't frustrating (well, maybe the monkey arms in Out of Africa.... Ok, it was probably my fault.... I'm terrible at monkey-swinging).

Next in my list is originality, this can be either visual or gameplay. It's pretty boring to complete another full vr material mgs turret shooter level. But if it includes fun new mechanics, really cool puzzles or is almost entirely painted white (yes I'm referring to Hate.2) i'll gladly heart it!

I hearted it also just because as a whole I think this level was absolutely stunning and was very creative..... but that ONE section was just a little too close and he is SO much better than that. I wasn't a fan of that section in the MGS levels..... but he's working on it. I have a feeling when he puts his own material into that section this game is going to jump to the top of my list.

I have to be fair.... if I see a level that is fun but looks exactly like 30 other ones (including objects copied from them) I have to say something...

There are a few good tutorials on this site, and the ones that I found most useful are Elbee's and there is one about polish, and making "sections", using corner editer, and using the grid.

Also, OCK and others, if you have anything else to add to your posts, you may think it sounds like waffle, but to a fairly new creator such as my self, the advice is invaluable!

Yes, that's exactly why I started this thread, and they've been fantastic in adding the information. For all the people I review, if I feel they need a lot of help I now send them to look at this thread, as well as Elbee's thread.

2009-01-31 00:37:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

I like a level to look good, but I'd much rather it look simple and have fun gameplay, rather than trying to use every graphical effect they can pack in.

Any of o-tera's levels, or SackCrush 3000 by Treas are exactly the sort of thing I like in LBP.
Even though they don't have anything ground breaking in either looks or gameplay, they're so much fun to play through that it doesn't matter (for the record, me and a friend must have been playing SackCrush 3000 for at least three quarters of an hour last night, and I go on it every time I boot up LBP now trying to beat my score).

I don't think there's any single magic thing a creator can do to make a good level, but the simple things are usually the best.

2009-01-31 00:42:00

Author:
Ace

Posts: 118

Great thoughts! We're gonna miss you, Ace... come back and visit sometime.

2009-02-12 17:59:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

My order of importance.

1) Creativity is king. I learned this the hard way. People want to do something that they have never done before in a LBP level even if it isn't as polished.
2) Gameplay. This is what has kept Mario a brand name for decades. Fun.
3) Visuals. If you are using every material in the game, it is going to look stupid because there is no theme or sense of style.
4) Story. Having no objective leads to the player having no drive to complete the level.
5) Polish. This is little touches and tweaks that turns a B-class level into an A-class level.

2009-02-12 18:19:00

Author:
Voltiare

Posts: 646

I don't agree about the story, sure a good story is always appreciated but many really great levels have no story at all, starstruck 3, world of color, illumina garden 2 and many more. And then there are a lot of levels which have a story but mostly it just is there, it doesn't make you want to continue it's usually just an explanation for why you are there, why do you want to defeat bowser, because he has kidnapped princess peach. That's not a story that drives you forward, it's just an explanation, personally i often prefer levels without story, you don't need to read thousands of magic mouths...

And then there are the levels which are heavily story driven, these levels are usually very very bad and only sometimes good, a good example of a good story level is the legion.
In my opinion story (in lbp levels) is a thing that is very hard to get good, you really need to spend a lot of time on creating it, you need the right atmosphere and you need to be very good at telling a story.
A story is a bonus that makes a level better only if it is very good, but usually they are only explanations which don't affect how good a level is at all...

2009-02-12 18:51:00

Author:
Marklin80

Posts: 458

2) Gameplay. This is what has kept Mario a brand name for decades. Fun.
3) Visuals. If you are using every material in the game, it is going to look stupid because there is no theme or sense of style.
4) Story. Having no objective leads to the player having no drive to complete the level.

Gameplay and Visuals... this ones actually a tough one for many authors (even professional video game designers).

I've seen far too often authors allow the visuals to get IN THE WAY of gameplay. For instance, there was a beautiful level in a Japanese visual style that I saw about a month ago. The author spent so much time making the level LOOK beautiful that the visuals got in the way of the mechanics. It was difficult to jump without landing on layers you didn't expect, and the ground was so bumpy it was difficult to even WALK in the level without getting a big knot in your stomach.

I don't agree about the story, sure a good story is always appreciated but many really great levels have no story at all, starstruck 3, world of color, illumina garden 2 and many more. And then there are a lot of levels which have a story but mostly it just is there, it doesn't make you want to continue it's usually just an explanation for why you are there, why do you want to defeat bowser, because he has kidnapped princess peach. That's not a story that drives you forward, it's just an explanation, personally i often prefer levels without story, you don't need to read thousands of magic mouths...

I definately agree with the fact that many of us aren't story tellers - however if you get someone who can REALLY tell a story I love these levels (and definately The Legion is at the top of my list with these, along with the Little Big Apocalypse series).

However, I THINK (I can be corrected if I'm wrong) Voltiare is applying story to a little broader concept - premise and objective. A story can be a very simple sentence - "you come across a temple and decide to explore." If the premise and objective are interesting, you're going to CARE what happens. Many creators don't think out what is going to drive the level forward.

2009-02-12 19:43:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

The thing is every time i make a level i put so much effort into it then i play it its quite short and easy any tips on how to make better?

2009-02-12 19:44:00

Author:
Josh 121

Posts: 19

I'm very very hard to please xD
I don't see most of the page 1 "Cool" levels as that great...
It's the hidden gems that I love

I look for...

Originality - These "see how many stairs you can climb in 28 minutes" levels don't amuse me. I like something I would NEVER have though of myself, a great cocept that's never been done before. Recently I played a level that had a cannon that fired two-string sponge balls joined together by string, it was genius the variety of things that could be done with it.

Appearance - This always comes second. A level might look spectacular, but what does it matter if it's boring? I'd be better off in google images... Like the bedroom level I played recently, beautiful rooms with tonnes of work in them, but absolutely nothing to do. Can't help but get the feeling that it's just people boasting about their ability to put stickers on something or a bit of glitter... Going for looks is the easy way out, coming up with an innovative and spectacular idea that can be executed brilliantly is what I look for in a level

Narrative - 99% of narrative stories are lame. "Find the key *which is right next to you btw* to get passed the randomly locked *for no apparent reason* wall over there"
Voltaire's narration was great in HATE, as was Superphillips in the superphillip series. It needs it's own sheekness to it to dingle my pringle

2009-02-12 19:49:00

Author:
Pinchanzee

Posts: 805

thanks i will keep all that stuff in mind. im sure it will come inhandy when i make my next level. thanks again

2009-02-12 19:53:00

Author:
Josh 121

Posts: 19

The thing is every time i make a level i put so much effort into it then i play it its quite short and easy any tips on how to make better?
Creating a challenging, but fair, experience is definately difficult. This is actually the part that can separate a novice from an experienced author.

An experienced author may pick several areas in their level that they are going to focus on to stand out and create a challenge. Usually this area is referred to as the "Boss", however it doesn't necessarily need to be a single "thing" on the screen.

Next - design design design. Sit down and formulate your mechanics for your boss and what the challenge is going to be to defeat it. Pre-planning all the pieces will allow you to build a better experience.

Finally, once you've built it - heavily play test it to make sure you are able to consistently win yourself and it is a fair battle.

Many of the best authors do this - they look at each area separately this way, and many times put TONS of hours into getting it right.

(by the way, I personally will THINK about specific areas for about a week and make notes until I feel I'm ready to build it. In the meantime, I may put together the inbetween sections).

2009-02-12 19:59:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

One thing that helps me, is to:

- Come up with an interesting concept

- figure out a loose story

- Think of gameplay elements that can be used in the level

- Pick 5-6 materials to use in the level. Not including the obvious dissolve/darkmatter. Heart these.

- Make the bare-bones of the level. NO decorations as of yet.

- Then decorate the level, do it in waves though, like do the foreground/background parts and decorations, and then add stickers. Then finaly add music and lighting.

2009-02-14 08:20:00

Author:
dkjestrup

Posts: 672

I really like to see secrets in levels, and it is even better if it has a reward system, as seen in (i believe act 4, or 3) where every secret you find, opens a place with score bubbles. It adds a great replayability.

Also, Polish is extremely important. What turns me off is bad stickerning, sure in front view it looks red, but in play view you can see the regular wood behind it (for example).

Sound effects and lights really add to the ambience, and it's quite hard to make them good, but some creators are extremely good with it, and it makes levels beautiful.

2009-02-14 12:47:00

Author:
ThommyTheThird

Posts: 440

I'd say one way to make sure your level has replay value is to look at every challenging part individually and ask the question "would someone who plays the level for the first time almost definitely lose a life here?". If the answer is yes, you probably need to add some warning signs - either through means of ambience (stickers, colours, lighting, sounds) or obstructing the path to the challenge until the player has had enough time to observe the mechanics). One thing that definitely makes me quit a level before finishing it is when you have to die multiple times to get a grasp of what you should do to get through.

2009-02-14 14:27:00

Author:
sny

Posts: 144

Creative obstacles and elements and art design.

2009-02-14 16:41:00

Author:
qrtda235566

Posts: 3664

i like unique obstacles, good character models, and a decent amount of difficulty. i dont want to ace it my 1st try but i dont want to get frustrated either

2009-02-15 01:26:00

Author:
RickTheRipper

Posts: 345

Levels have to be user friendly.

Few things are more irritating than getting past a long and difficult obstacle, only to die in a fire pit obscured by a tree or a rock. Matters are only made worse when the last checkpoint was before the previous obstacle.

Camera angles are very important. They can be used to show upcoming obstacles that would otherwise be hidden. What irks me though, is when people move the camera off to the side, so that it's almost behind the player. Fine for showing off the level, but it makes intricate platforming almost impossible due to being unable to judge where you're landing, how high etc.

2009-02-15 02:10:00

Author:
Matt 82

Posts: 1096

2009-02-15 02:35:00

Author:
Shining Aquas

Posts: 353

i think looks are really important, if the looks are crappy i most likely will not finish the level. I also like to see people thinking out of the box and making cool mechanisms.

I hate when people a) use things from the story(that showsme they are lazy)
and b) give me a bunch of crap they spent two seconds on.

I was seriously considering making a level where you had to avoid getting prize bubbles(i think that would be funny)

2009-02-15 02:43:00

Author:
Sonic5411

Posts: 712

The difference between challenging and frustrating is slightly difficult to judge though, mostly because the line that's drawn changes with each person.

I can play Trial of Skill and beat it every single time. In my eye, I find it challenging, not frustrating. However, many people will call it frustrating because they are unable to beat it, and quickly give up on it. Really, certain things like tolerance, skill, and general willingness to progress really help determine whether or not the level is good or bad to people playing it.
It's intereresting - is an area of a game challenging or frustrating? It all depends on whether, in the end, the player thought it was fair. I don't personally think this is something the author should decide, because an author can't be objective - he/she has played it WAY too many times..

Usually the best way to deterimine it is through play testing. If, after playing it, the majority of players are telling the author "it's frustrating", then it IS frustrating. The only question then is whether the people play testing the game are the target audience. What is frustrating to a 10-year-old is not necessarily frustrating to an 18-year-old.

To try to tweak your level so it initially isn't frustrating to your target audience, it's a good idea to at least practice certain rules: are there small uneven platforms that are difficult for a new player to get the hang of? Are the so many obstacles floating around in a seamingly random pattern that must be traversed, or can the player watch for a minute and determine how to solve the problem? Are obstacles so fast that, even when concentrating, a player can't move the character fast enough to make it past?

2009-02-15 11:43:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

It's intereresting - is an area of a game challenging or frustrating? It all depends on whether, in the end, the player thought it was fair. I don't personally think this is something the author should decide, because an author can't be objective - he/she has played it WAY too many times..

Usually the best way to deterimine it is through play testing. If, after playing it, the majority of players are telling the author "it's frustrating", then it IS frustrating. The only question then is whether the people play testing the game are the target audience. What is frustrating to a 10-year-old is not necessarily frustrating to an 18-year-old.

To try to tweak your level so it initially isn't frustrating to your target audience, it's a good idea to at least practice certain rules: are there small uneven platforms that are difficult for a new player to get the hang of? Are the so many obstacles floating around in a seamingly random pattern that must be traversed, or can the player watch for a minute and determine how to solve the problem? Are obstacles so fast that, even when concentrating, a player can't move the character fast enough to make it past?

Great advice and I agree with everything you said. I usually try to test my levels with 4-5 people before publishing which is invaluable and helps me make the necessary adjustments before I put the level out there.

The most important thing Ccubbage wrote is this:

an author can't be objective - he/she has played it WAY too many times..

Very, very, very important point.

2009-02-15 13:53:00

Author:
OCK

Posts: 1536

Telling stories in LBP is hard work. I personally edited the text bubbles in my Left Behind series at least a hundred times, and I'm still not happy with it.

It's hard to get the right balance. When there's too much, players just skip it.

2009-02-15 16:07:00

Author:
JackBurton25

Posts: 116

yeah when i walk up to a character and 8 speech bubbles appear i just skip them. unless it's instructions to the level.

that's just personal preference mind you. though i do think you can have too many cutscenes. i struggled with that on my 2nd level. i wanted to expand on the little world i had created but didn't want to interrupt the flow of the level.

2009-02-15 18:18:00

Author:
Matt 82

Posts: 1096

2009-02-15 19:36:00

Author:
Josh 121

Posts: 19

2009-02-15 21:32:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

I mainly look at design. If it looks good, I like it.

I'd like to go through a level looking a beautiful designs that doesn't play well rather than going through a level that plays well, but looks like crap.

2009-02-15 22:38:00

Author:
Sack-Jake

Posts: 1153

i looked at this thread and thought this is for me. i have been really stuck lately atr making good levels. all this stuff has helped alot thank you but i am still stuck on something. i put so much effort into levels i make but i play them and they are so short and i keep running out of ideas. please can someone help?

well, what's short for the creator isn't necessarily short for everyone else. remember that you'll breeze through (hopefully) without too much effort whereas everyone else is discovering it for the 1st time.

i also like to story board levels so that i have 5 or 6 'set pieces' per level. as my levels are based around themes, mainly pirates and martians, i draw inspiration for set pieces from the theme itself.

eg pirates might have to dodge barrels rolling down the gang plank, so i make that an obstacle. you'll notice a lot of cave levels have rocks falling from above etc.

2009-02-16 00:38:00

Author:
Matt 82

Posts: 1096

A good level is something that has:

- A nice theme
- Cool platforming
- Nice visuals
- Smooth playability
- Intricate design
- Nice effects and music

2009-02-16 05:40:00

Author:
Solisdrive

Posts: 57

If it is unique, well designed, plays smoothly, and is somewhat of a challenge, it will get a heart from me

2009-02-16 05:43:00

Author:
Unknown User

If it is unique, well designed, plays smoothly, and is somewhat of a challenge, it will get a heart from me

That's another thing i always get stuck on when ever i think of an idea i always put it into youtube to see if anyone else has made it. and they always have. it is either my mind so so unimaginative or someone lives in my brain and does stuff before i can!

2009-02-16 11:39:00

Author:
Josh 121

Posts: 19

Uniqueness can be gained from the little things, I've got a pirate thing going in my last level but for as far as I know it's not been done in the way I did it... Not to say that the pirate thing is highly original, but the take can quite easily be new enough to entice people.

2009-02-16 11:48:00

Author:
Wyth

Posts: 263

Cheers. im sure it will help me make the best levels in the world

2009-02-16 11:52:00

Author:
Josh 121

Posts: 19

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