Archive: 31 posts

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Yes the title of the thread is "borrowed" from another great thread by OCK and I was hoping to get an equally good debate going on this subject. I recently published all of my levels (with the exception of my newest one) as copyable but made them locked. The only way to unlock them is to play my newest level. My original reason for doing this was simple enough. To get people who played my older more popular levels to come and play my new one (I put a note at the end of all my older levels that you can get a copyable version if you play my new one). The results of this I found are a double edged sword and here's why..... PROS: My newest level is now one of the busiest levels being played (and I don't have to do the republishing game) because I have people coming from 3 different levels all to play one. I have people tell me they have learnt a lot from just looking how I built the levels. This is surely a good thing if you can spark an idea off in someone else an they go on to make better levels because of it? CONS: Now I could say people publishing my levels as their own but to be honest this doesn't bother me all that much. I'm only ever really interested in my latest published and the one I'm currently working on. Also all of my older levels have had a fair amount of plays/recognition so its not that big a deal. My main issue with this though is simply the amount of people publishing the levels as their own. For example I selected newest levels to go have a look at some of the new stuff being created and i must have seen my matrix level on about every second page. Now this worries me as I don't want to be the cause of a load of people spamming the servers with my old levels! Now I personally love when creators share their work and you can go in and see how it all is working but do you think the amount of people that would benefit from this doesn't justify the amount of people who will just abuse it? Basically is it worth it? Love to hear your thoughts on the subject.

2009-01-26 13:59:00 Author: wexfordian Posts: 1904

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It's definitely not worth it. The problem is that you can COUNT on more people abusing a copyable level than people actually copying it to learn things, to utilize the sharing aspect of the game. What there needs to be is some kind of "explore" mode available for copied levels. You should be able to decide that, if you want your level to be copyable, you can do it in a kind of "ROM" mode, where the player can go into create and explore and look at everything they want, but they just can't change or save anything, nor can they publish it as their own. People are exploiting copyable levels - it's pathetic, it's sad, it's unbelievable, and clearly it's another sign that MM has overestimated the maturity level of its gamers, and another problem that needs to be addressed in some distant future update.

2009-01-26 15:01:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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I share a lot of your views on making levels copyable. I usually keep mine non-copyable until I'm satisfied that the level has "had its day". I then make it copyable to show the inner workings of it, and in case someone wants to keep a copy of it for themselves. I don't really care about people claiming it as their own, in the end usurpers are no match for the real deal. Plus I'm usually working on a level even MORE amazing than the last, and become really only interested in showing that new one off. I think having an option of making a level copyable, but not publishable would help a lot, but I don't think it's that big a deal.

2009-01-26 15:16:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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I publish copyable ideas, rather than entire levels. This gives people the benefit of learning (or not) how to implement certain ideas (i.e. machinima or AI logic systems) but still requires they use their own creativity to integrate my work into theirs. People are less inclined this way to simply publish my work as theirs in order to get hearts/trophies.

2009-01-26 17:08:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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That just seems crazy to me... I mean just that people would republish as their own.. I mean if they do that, it obviously means that they think your a better creator than them, which is almost certainly right, but that their willing to post your work as their own... So they want everyone else to think that their as good as you?? and when it comes down to it they wont have the skills to back it up... sooo if there going to cheat to make people think there better than they are, then why do they even care... I mean for me It would be pointless, because any rating, or any hearts the level got, I would know that it wasn't for me, it was for you... IDK i guess I just have a stricter code of ethics than most of the idiots out there...

2009-01-26 18:17:00 Author: Madafaku Posts: 738

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I wouldn't make mine copyable coz' everyone will just republish your levels like the mario underwater theme music level. i see it everywhere

2009-01-26 18:30:00 Author: unforgettable_name Posts: 3

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I would have no problem with people republishing my levels if they said something like "Killian's level with an alternate ending!" but when people take your levels it's just not right. I'd like people to learn from them. :

2009-01-26 19:09:00 Author: Killian Posts: 2575

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I've yet to even publish a level, and while working in create mode, I've found it an extremely daunting task to try to understand/use the intimidating multitude of tools available. Through playing a number of really good tutorial "levels" I've actually learned some things I doubt I'd never figure out on my own. And while experimenting with this new knowledge, I've actually learned a number of other things about level creation... enough to even consider the idea of making my ever-unfinished level copyable, in hopes to help others grasp what had taken me hours to learn/figure out. However, the main CON wexfordian provides has turned me against the idea... (as if my level will even be worth copying & copy-catting!!). I like the idea Teebonesy suggests about the "explore mode"... as well as Thegide solution about "copyable ideas" (gonna have to check them out now!!)... but I guess in the end, the decision will remain entirely with the publisher, until MM provides us with more or different options I guess my main thought is that, thanks to the staggering maturity of these LBP copycats, people shouldn't make their (AAA quality) published levels as copyable... but if they really desire to share their complexities, they could publish simple, basic frameworks (or even small sub-sections) of the level instead. Then again, this would essentially be more work for the publisher than anything. (><) (This only makes me respect those that make tutorial "levels" even more!!)

2009-01-26 19:27:00 Author: Fatty_Fatness Posts: 10

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Interesting topic Wexfordian. I personally would never make my levels copyable. There is something about it that just does not feel "right". As Teebonsey pointed out there is a big risk of ideas being stolen/exploited that just doesn't sit well with me. You came up a with a great way to market your new level by using the system you mentioned but I think the cons far outweigh the pros. Is it really worth spending 50,60,70+ hours of hard work on a level to then just hand it over to someone on a silver platter? I don't think so but that's just me. What there needs to be is some kind of "explore" mode available for copied levels. You should be able to decide that, if you want your level to be copyable, you can do it in a kind of "ROM" mode, where the player can go into create and explore and look at everything they want, but they just can't change or save anything, nor can they publish it as their own. This is a great idea that I think would work well. Unfortunately there are a million other things that MM needs to fix/add/tweak etc so I wouldn't hold my breath. Out of curiosity Wex, how in the world do you get so many plays on your levels? lol. Come on, what's the secret? When I played your Matrix level (before you published the newest one) you already had like 14,000 plays and I was really impressed (amazing level btw, everyone should check it out. Create a thread Wex!). Anyway, great thread and I look forward to other peoples thoughts on the subject.

2009-01-27 01:50:00 Author: OCK Posts: 1536

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Interesting topic Wexfordian. how in the world do you get so many plays on your levels? lol. Come on, what's the secret? When I played your Matrix level (before you published the newest one) you already had like 14,000 plays and I was really impressed (amazing level btw, everyone should check it out. Create a thread Wex!). Anyway, great thread and I look forward to other peoples thoughts on the subject. Word of Mouth??? lol

2009-01-27 03:15:00 Author: Madafaku Posts: 738

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I think stripping your older levels down to the bare mechanics of it (which is what I wanted to share in the first place) is a great idea. It's easy (only requires deleting the parts that join it all together) and it prevents exact copies of you level being posted by others. Out of curiosity Wex, how in the world do you get so many plays on your levels? lol. Come on, what's the secret? When I played your Matrix level (before you published the newest one) you already had like 14,000 plays and I was really impressed (amazing level btw, everyone should check it out. Create a thread Wex!). I was considering posting some tips on this subject as I have observed many things that help in this area. My levels appear to be receiving an incredible amount of plays. For example, that Matrix level is now at 50,000 plays and that is only 2 weeks after you played it. My latest one has had 10,000 plays in the last 10 days. Would people like for me to post something on this?

2009-01-27 11:24:00 Author: wexfordian Posts: 1904

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Would people like for me to post something on this? Uhhh, yeah lol. I am sure a lot of people would appreciate it, including myself

2009-01-27 11:45:00 Author: OCK Posts: 1536

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That's quite noble. I could never do this because, even understanding of the idea that your current project is the only important one, my stuff is too personal to me to share it so openly. IMO The number of plagiarists on LBP far outweighs the number of grateful players who will download the level with the hopes of either analyzing it or improving upon it. It's probably the same ratio as players to creators. I've often thought of LBP as a few artists and craftsmen in the land of the blind... it's as if only the peers of your community pay each other any accord, and have the only eyes to fit to see and appreciate your work. Yet we seek to heal the blind and show them the light lol ...aside from that random tangent, or the nature of LBP, and the psychology of a plagiarist... I don't even want YOU to do this. I hate plagiarism with every fiber of my being.

2009-01-27 11:57:00 Author: Unknown User

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Well, so far the levels I've made copyable were more "Proof of concept" levels than something I went really all-out on. Considering the complexity and interest I have in my mech series, I probably won't make those copyable. I'm not entirely convinced I should even give the mechs away as prizes. The system is very complex and I get the feeling no one would really be able to apply it correctly or learn anything without me writing a manual on how to make a level with them.

2009-01-27 14:24:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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Completely and totally against it. One of my first tank designs was on a copyable level by accident for a few days. I had let my friend copy a blank level with my tank, then he published a level with the tank but had it set to copyable!! I wont go into the whole story as I have told it before. Basically my tank got ripped and when I pointed out to the guy that it was my work, he actually tried to claim I had taken it from him!!! Only thing that backed me up is I had all my work and videos on youtube dated a month before he ever posted his level. Having someone copy, learn, share and enjoy is fine with me but knowing their are people out there that will try to claim you stole your own work from them.. that just sucks. Thats all it took for me to not trust.

2009-01-27 14:57:00 Author: rz22g Posts: 340

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I've often thought of LBP as a few artists and craftsmen in the land of the blind... it's as if only the peers of your community pay each other any accord, and have the only eyes to fit to see and appreciate your work. Yet we seek to heal the blind and show them the light lol Without derailing the topic, I keep thinking it would be a good idea to try to form a creators' club on these forums, where people can buy membership with XP. The point of this being a way for the most dedicated creators to come together to share photo and video galleries, bounce design ideas off other people, and most importantly meet the other skilled creators. This is possible right now with the existing forum structure, but to be honest, the Creative Juices and Sharing the Fun subforums are far too cluttered for this purpose. I like to meet creators and share ideas without having to run back to my PS3 to play and evaluate newly posted levels every 5 minutes. There are so many talented people on this site... and I feel like I know so few of them, and they me. Moreover, the creative juices forums don't get much input from other members, and I'm not sure why. Most posts get very few replies if any. Perhaps a club such as this would promote more discussion and interaction between creators working at the design level, since it would offer some protection against IP theft through its buy-in requirement. Just an idea... I hate plagiarism with every fiber of my being. I could lose my job and all credibility in my field if I was caught plagiarizing. So yeah, I pretty much feel the same way

2009-01-27 15:19:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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I gave away as prizes a bunch of sections of my level. That way someone could build something with a similar idea and have a good place to start, but they wouldn't be able to do it so simply as to just copy/republish.

2009-01-27 17:46:00 Author: Risen Posts: 251

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Hmmm... my thoughts on this topic. I have no levels copyable. I don't think it's a good idea, as people can and will rip you off by publishing your hard work as their own. But here are a few other points though. I have no problems at all with sharing ideas. The Dr. Spongehead How to... series is basically sharing the ideas and knowledge I have on advanced creator topics. At the end of each of those levels I have "hand outs" which show the key concepts taught on the level. The idea is that people can take those objects, plonk them down in an empty level, and then see all the settings and so on that I have for the points being taught. Those objects are not copyable though. I've bent over backwards to try and teach the ideas, but it would just be absolutely apalling to me if someone was to, for example, copy a whole "Dr Spongehead" level and claim it as their own work. That's just lame and lazy. I've done all I could to share the concepts and knowledge, but it's up to the other creators themselves in how they implement the knowledge, rather than an identical copied object or level. Take my TSR, Three Stage Rocket. That took somewhere between 20 and 30 hours to design, build and calibrate. It's as complex as some of the story bosses out there. I've not included it as a prize object on that level though, even in a non-copyable form. It's just took too much hard work and planning for me to make it work, I just can't give it away lightly. I'd gladly show people some of the tricks behind it, and some of the different engineering advancements that are used on the rocket, but the idea of someone who has no appreciation of the mechanics just copying it and claiming credit... that just seems very, very wrong to me. So in summary, I have no problem at all with idea and knowledge sharing. I do have a problem with people being lazy and ripping off other people's work.

2009-01-28 10:53:00 Author: Elbee23 Posts: 1280

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It's pathetic, really. "Oh I'm a horrible creator let me go steal other peoples work laa de da da daa" As it stands, I say, no. Don't publish your level as copyable. Instead, publish an 'Inferior' Version, that is: What Mm did with the Templates. Take you'r level, copy it and move it to a different spot on your moon. Now Dismember it! Rip out every,single moving part, anything thats from the tools bag-kill, anything in the goodies bag, leave. Turn boss segments into platforming segments. Hey, even get rid of the lights! That will give the player the 'Skeleton' of the level, which still allows them to look at details they may have missed, as well as techniques to make a better level. Now, as for the 'intricate' stuff, anything containing Tools bag Items, You can give them away, and risk someone 'stealing' them, or... Make an Inferior Version-Same thing, but with front panels removed, etc etc. No decorations, so they can see whats going on. Pretty much make it barely work.

2009-01-29 02:11:00 Author: DRT99 Posts: 431

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Example... I just had a mook call me a ******* because I was not giving away my new Abrams tank and HT1 (which was an exclusive gift to a contest winner). He calls me this but has two levels. One level with a thing he calls "a truck" that has one control on it. In that complex setup he failed to make "the truck" go in the right direction .. His other level... the first thing you get in is MY HOVERCRAFT!!!. No prob since I gave it as a gift to everyone but to call me a ******* but use my object.. thats just wrong. Im to the point now that Im going to pull all my gifts. F em all.

2009-01-29 02:39:00 Author: rz22g Posts: 340

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Completely and totally against it. One of my first tank designs was on a copyable level by accident for a few days. I had let my friend copy a blank level with my tank, then he published a level with the tank but had it set to copyable!! I wont go into the whole story as I have told it before. Basically my tank got ripped and when I pointed out to the guy that it was my work, he actually tried to claim I had taken it from him!!! Only thing that backed me up is I had all my work and videos on youtube dated a month before he ever posted his level. Having someone copy, learn, share and enjoy is fine with me but knowing their are people out there that will try to claim you stole your own work from them.. that just sucks. Thats all it took for me to not trust. LOL what a dingleberry! Oh and Kratos I completely agree, Infact come to think of it I dont think Ive ever used a community object, they just hang out in my popit... If for somereason I did find an object that I did want to use, first I would try to rebuild somthing similar, but make it feel like mine... if that didn't work I would consider not using it at all, If I absolutely had to have it in my level, I would give credit to the creator somewhere... Ripping of work is just lame. I fail to see the purpose in putting somone elses work up as your own.. do they do it for the trophy?? what good is that if you dont earn it?

2009-01-29 03:09:00 Author: Madafaku Posts: 738

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Really have no problem with stuff being used. I gifted my tank hoping someone would make a really cool war type level with it. Problem comes in when you get accused of stealing your own work and being called dumb*** by someone using your object in one of their two levels.

2009-01-29 03:34:00 Author: rz22g Posts: 340

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Lol thats true too.. I mean in my upcoming wonderland level, I remade most of the characters from the movie in LBP, for the most part Im really happy with the way they look, especially the mad hatter and the caterpillar.. all these characters will be prizes, though some will be harder to reach than others... and yea I wouldnt mind to see somone use them in their own tribute levels, probably save them loads of time, because with some of the limitations with the game, recreating cartoon characters is a daunting task. but like I said, and perhaps its just me, but I believe credit should be given where its due... Oh yea and thanks for the tank too man, I did look at it in create mode, and learned a new way to propel objects from it... had never even thought of doing that (with the wenches and 3 way switch) but it works great.

2009-01-29 03:57:00 Author: Madafaku Posts: 738

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Lol thats true too.. I mean in my upcoming wonderland level, I remade most of the characters from the movie in LBP, for the most part Im really happy with the way they look, especially the mad hatter and the caterpillar.. all these characters will be prizes, though some will be harder to reach than others... and yea I wouldnt mind to see somone use them in their own tribute levels, probably save them loads of time, because with some of the limitations with the game, recreating cartoon characters is a daunting task. but like I said, and perhaps its just me, but I believe credit should be given where its due... Oh yea and thanks for the tank too man, I did look at it in create mode, and learned a new way to propel objects from it... had never even thought of doing that (with the wenches and 3 way switch) but it works great. The idea of pistons on lever for drive was not my idea either. I was clueless to that. Someone here suggested it but cant remember who. I think Drunkmiffy. Dont know.. Im drinking at the moment so no telling. I do know you can find the thread. I made a real *** of myself because I thought that all controls had to be on the object. I saw wires stretching in create mode and thought they had a limit What a mook.

2009-01-29 04:04:00 Author: rz22g Posts: 340

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Hi Guy's just an update: Even with everyones strong opinions against this I was still holding the opinion that its good to share these levels in the hope of creating a more open community...... That is until I did a text search for the word "Matrix"...... I came across 2 full pages of my level that had been published. I mean its kind of weird seeing the planet covered in your icons.... I went through the majority of the 60/70 odd levels published and guess how many people didn't claim it as their own....... 1. Every single other person had simply copied it and published it, with the only change made being making it non copyable! Now, I'm still not overly concerned that people are doing this (yes, its quite sad, yes they are taking work that I spent countless hours producing and passing it off as their own) but what gets to me is their basically spamming the servers with no new original material? This is not good for the game itself so I have taken down the copyable versions to stop this from spreading more than it has. One interesting side note is that I went into the comments section of some of the levels published and seen comments left by other people tearing the person to shreds for trying to pass off my work as thier own! It was great to see other people standing up to this kind of thing (And quite funny also!). Also, as I knew I was going to delete the copyable versions I started experimenting a little with the way servers hold levels details..... I discovered something very interesting but I'll make another thread about it as it's completely off this topic..... But it is interesting.....

2009-01-29 12:24:00 Author: wexfordian Posts: 1904

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I do think it's sad, and would probably never make my levels copyable, but like so many of the problems in LBP, it stems from the **** trophies! Nobody would be bothering to steal other people's work if there weren't trophies for publishing levels and getting author and level hearts. The online trophies involving hearting and creating have hampered this game in so many ways.

2009-01-29 12:44:00 Author: WilsonPhillips-X Posts: 17

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I wouldn't make mine copyable coz' everyone will just republish your levels like the mario underwater theme music level. i see it everywhere I made that, hehe. I don't think I'll ever do that again. I WAS going to make my rickroll level copyable, but that would start a VIRUS that would eat away the fun of LittleBigPlanet.

2009-01-29 14:30:00 Author: TheJollyRajah Posts: 466

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Some people really have no shame, wexfordian... I think that's what bugs me most about that. I'm glad people are tearing into them. I used to do alot of music, and there were sites where people would post their new songs, or their unrecorded lyrics. There was always someone who would steal people's lyrics and post them on different sites, or plagiarize stuff from unknown songs and mix it together. I became very good at spotting a plagiarist (or "biter" as they were known) and made it a personal crusade to oust these people. It was very difficult to find proof sometimes, and sometimes when I had only gut instinct and inferrance to go on, I would still point it out. I'd even seen people post full audio tracks and pass it off as their own! The one time that happened, I contacted the dude who recorded it, and him and all his label mates registered at the site and made a living show of him lol Sometimes I was seen as overbearing with it, but it would just enrage me so much when people would steal someone elses material, and shamelessly showboat with it. I probably seemed rash when I said in here that I didn't want you to do it and how I loathe plagiarism, but it's because I've had years of experience with the bottom of the barrel. Where others think "what's the big deal" I see a complete and total perversion of decency and pride.

2009-01-29 19:24:00 Author: Unknown User

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I will never publish a level of mine in copyable version. Instead of it I will be glad to take people interested on a tour on my moon, but until the edit mode online will be available this will be impossible. I registered here to share knowledge with other skilled and novice creators, and I am glad turnipeater published a level inspired from mines (and never expected it can happen) using all his talent and original ideas in it (I didn't played it yet, but I'm confident...). That's the point. That's sharing. Don't remember who asked me how did I managed to obtain lightnings and the magician disappear, and I immediately posted 'how to' straight in that thread. I can add only a thing to this thread (that I wrote somewhere else in this forum): MM made a gigantic mistake giving trophies concerning hearts, creators, number of plays and published levels. It destroyed all the whole original idea of 'create' and 'share'. Quite no one will publish a level of mine as his own if he is not interested in catching plays/hearts to gain a trophy... The servers would be filled only with levels of creators really interested in creating (and not in trophies), maybe a million levels less but who cares, I'll never manage to play all the online levels...

2009-01-29 20:16:00 Author: Miglioshin Posts: 336

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Wow... I never even THOUGHT of the possibility of some jack-hole re-publishing other peoples levels as their own and taking the credit for it! Thas is just lame and makes me sick! Personally, I don't make my levels copy-able... mainly because I don't see the point of giving away ALL of my ideas to everyone all at once. If you want to know how I did something... just ask... it's that easy. While I believe that knowledge is something that doesn't belong to you and that it should be shared, I also believe that some amount of mystery is needed in creative circles in order to keep others inspired and challenge their own minds and skills - creatively speaking. I don't have a problem with sharing objects I've made for the most part. If someone can get an object I spent a lot of time on and be able to use it in a new or interesting way in one of their levels without having to go through all the hours I spent creating it, more power to them. I'd only hope that they would have to decency and respect to give credit for and mention mine or any other persons name who's object they used somewhere along the way in their level. As someone who's been creating original works of art and music for most of my long life, I'm a firm believer in CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE. For example, I recently ran across a post by a very good creator here and saw that he was able to accomplish something that I myself had set out very early in my creative dabbling, but was unable to figure out. I sincerely hope that his wonderful creation will be one that I can get as a prize, simply for the fact that I would love to be able to examine it more closely and see what he did right that I did wrong, so that I might be able to benefit from that knowledge in my future builds. I doubt I would ever put his creation in one of my levels, but if I did I would CERTAILY add a speech bubble giving credit to the original creator and recommend people play his levels. To blatantly rip someone off and take the credit as your own is morally wrong, and I feel nothing but pity for losers who do so. Also, I really don't even understand the big deal with ANY kind of trophy or the whole trophy system. Who really gives a hoot if I made a new friend, figured out how to stamp a sticker on my sackboy, or published a level? I certainly don't care about my trophies, and I care even less about yours... plain and simple. I know what I've accomplished both in-game and in real life... I don't need a ridiculous trophy to try and make me feel good about it or better about myself as a peron or a gamer somehow. The whole trophy system on PS3 is a joke.. it's just LAME... no matter what the game. But I degress... This has given me much to think about when publishing... GREAT thread topic!!

2009-01-30 00:51:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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well i copy some of ur levels because i find em cool but now they are not copyable and also i put a message saying that people also should see ur creations they hearted ur levels (because even if they have my name on it they are ur creations) and well i love to play ur levels on edit mode and cheat abit to find the items XD

2009-02-02 04:00:00 Author: Haruka-Ash Posts: 18

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