Archive: 21 posts

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So I was just messing in create mode, trying to come up with some useful mechanisms, using my switches. I was thinking how useful some might find different control-setups (like how Kratos4 used them in his tank). I named what I came up with the Multi-hit Setup and the Charge-Setup. What the multi-hit setup does is basically that it triggers a different event depending on how many times it was hit. It is -not- the same as a toggle switch though. In the level, I made an example using grab-switches. If you grab only once and hold, the vehicle will move right. If you grab once, let go, and then grab again immidiately (not too fast) and hold, then it will move left. The other grab-material triggers different kinds of projectiles. This can be repeated infinitely. The Charge-Setup triggers different events depending on how long it was active, before it deactivates again. I used another grab-switch as an example in the level (the tiny black thing on top of that metal block is grabable..). If you grab it, three red lights will turn on one after the other. Depending on which time you let go, a different mechanism will activate. Currently, the Multi-hit Setup has only two different outputs. I have managed to add a third one, but it didn't work that well. Update: The new Multi-hit Setup makes it quite easy to add more outputs, but it's still not a "quickly done" matter. Adding more outputs to the Charge-Setup is really easy. The level is in -no- way beatiful, I was just messing around.. I might come up with more of these setups and maybe I'll make a level showing some, to demonstrate some switch-techniques and for inspiration I won't add them to my Switch Collection level though. I love making switches/mechanisms, so feel free to ask anything, you can even request other mechanisms, I'll see what I can do. Now, I ask you to tell me if you found it useful what I did there. Edit: Level Name: Multi-hit and Charge Switch Setups PSN: Shiwayari ___________________________ Explanations added: Multi-hit Setup: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3426/lbpmultihitsetup.jpg The box on the upper left is the grabbable material with 3 grab switches on it. (You could also use relays, but I used multiple switches to make it easier to show whats going on. And relays will probably use more thermometer space.) The first two are set to one-shot, the second one is inverted. The third grab switch is set to directional. -1- This is a timer that stays active for 0.4 seconds once activated. It uses an inward flipper-piston combined with an inverted directional switch. When grab switch one is activated (that is, when the material is grabbed), the magnetic switch of this timer will stay active for 0.4 seconds. -2- This is a timer that needs 0.25 seconds to activate. The magnetic switch of -1- is attached to the piston here, this means following: 0.25 seconds after the material is grabbed, the output of this timer will activate. (If you're wondering why -1- stays active for 0.4 seconds rather than 0.25; that's just a precaution, assuring that -2- will activate) -3- Now comes the check how many times the material has been grabbed. This is just a modified AND Gate. The piston that -2- is connected to is just like in any other AND Gate, set to 0.1 seconds etc.. The second piston is attached to the first grab switch, it's set to outward flipper motion and to 0.2seconds. The important part: This AND Gate will only activate if the material is grabbed twice in a certain time interval. Why is that? Well, let's see what happens: 0 seconds Material is grabbed, -1- is activated. Piston 2 of the AND Gate does it's flipper motion. 0.2 seconds Piston 2 of the AND Gate is back to it's fully retracted position. 0.25 seconds -1- is still active. -2- is activated --> Piston 1 of the AND Gate streches out. *** 0.4 seconds -1- deactivates. -2- starts to retract, deactivates. Piston 1 of the AND Gate retracts. As you might have noticed, there was no time for both pistons of the AND Gate to be active simultaneously, so it didn't activate. Now let's go back to *** and see what happens if we grab again: 0.3 seconds (for example) -1- and -2- are both still active, piston 1 of the AND Gate is streched. Now we let go and grab again --> piston 2 of the AND Gate streches. Both pistons are streched, the AND Gate activates. -4- Now this one "saves" how many times we grabbed. I did not draw it out here, because it is a standart State Switch that can be found in my Switch Collection Level "Shiwa's Devices V2" (see signature). If you look there: Be careful, the new version of the State Switch does not work very well for this setup (the one with the sliding glass block). The old version works fine, you can collect it at the end of the level. It is not demonstrated in the level, but it does the same thing as the new version, just works differently (It's the one that uses 4 pistons). Anyway, set it up so that one state is activated by the AND Gate in -3-. The other should be activated by the inverted one-shot grab switch on the material. The inverted is important, because it goes off when you let go, not when you grab. The reason for this is that the multi-hit setup should be resetted after it's use. Meaning, if you grabbed it two times to get output 2, it's supposed to give you output 2 again, if you grab it 2 times again. Of course, you can set this up however you want, but I though this way was the most obvious and easiest control. -5- Two more ordinary AND Gates. One of their Input being the State Switch, the other one being the direction grab switch on the material. These AND Gates represent the output of what the multi-hit setup is supposed to do. They can be connected to anything. Set the piston that is connected to the grab switch to about 0.7 seconds. What this does: These AND Gates will take 0.35 seconds to activate. This is so that output one does not get activated, if you grab twice. Also: both outputs will only stay active as long as you hold onto the material; if you let go, the output will deactivate. Charge Setup: http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2238/lbpchargesetupji8.jpg This one is actually quite simple.. - Again, the block on the upper left is the grabbable material. There are two grab switches, one directional and one inverted one-shot. - The thing in the upper right is an object that you should capture, because it's going to be emitted. It's important that it is not dark matter, because it needs to fall down. It just a box with a piston attached to a glass block inside. A magnetic key on the glass block and a switch on the left. Note that this key here must not activate the switch. I'll call this object charger. - The shape below is what will "catch" the emitted charger. It's made of dark matter. The three magnetic switches you see are placed in a layer more to the back, so that the charger can be in front of them. - The block on the left is attached to a standart piston with time set to 0.1 seconds. Attach the directional grab switch to this piston. - Now attach the inverted one-shot grab switch to the emitter and have the emitter emit the charger above the shape. Set max emitted at once to 1. The reason that it needs to be emitted above is that it wouldn't emit below if there already is a charger. So it emits above, allowing the previous charger to dissolve. The new one will then fall down to where the previous one was. - Each of the magnetic switches in the back layer is connected to an AND Gate. The second Input of each AND Gate is the inverted one-shot grab switch, so make sure the piston has flipper motion enabled. Set the time of the flipper motion piston to 0.2 seconds instead of 0.1, just because it works better that way. - Of course you can add as many magnetic switches on the back layer as you want, each one is a different output. The time of the piston of the emitted charger can also be set to anything. It equals half the time it need to fully charge. Here's how it works: - You grab the material and hold on. The piston with the green magnetic key will move right, which will activate the magnetic switch on the left of the charger. The piston inside the charger will move right, which will make the blue magnetic switches in the back layer activate one after another. - If you let go, there are two things that will happen: 1.One of the AND Gates will activate, because the inverted grab switch is triggered and because the other Input is activated by whatever magnetic switch in the back layer that the charger's key is currently at. 2. Simultaneously, a new charger will emit and the old one will be dissolved, resseting the "charge". This is so that you can let go inbetween and "charge the rest later". Of course you can set it up like that if you want it to be like that. Phew, I hope this was not too hard to understand and the graphics helped making it easier. I tried my best explaining it in detail, but if you still have questions, feel free to ask. Also keep in mind that these are only specific setups, they can be varied in many ways, it's all up to you how you want to set it up. Update: New Multi-hit Setup http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8062/lbpmultihitsetupcustomijz7.jpg As you can see, I kept the graphic more technical this time. The good thing: If you get the new Multi-hit setup object at the end of the level and use it in create mode, you will notice that there are uneccessarily big gaps between switches. This is because I placed them (almost) exactly like I drew the circuit in the graphic. So if you see an OR Gate in the graphic, then the switch at the same place in-game is also an OR Gate. Anyway, on to explaining it: First, a little caption: G = 2 Grab Switches O1, O2 = OR Gates 1 and 2 R = Relay T1, T2 = Toggle Switches 1 and 2 &1, &2 = AND Gates 1 and 2 D = A Bit-Decoder (2-Bit in this case) E = The Enable setting of the Bit-Decoder Note that the 2-Bit-Decoder and the Enable are one object in the object I gave away in the level. The Enable is the piston with the magnetic switches on it and the Decoder is the rest of the object. What is the Enable, you ask? Well, if the Enable is -off-, then the Decoder won't output anything no matter what it does. If the Enable is -on- (streched piston), then it will "get" whatever state the Decoder currently has. Basically, it enables and disables the whole switch. Also keep in mind that you can't just use the same circuit with a 1-Bit- or 3-Bit-Decoder or more, because you will need less or more Gates. This one uses a 2-Bit one and can have 4 different Outputs. Again, you can get all the switches I used in my level "Shiwa's Devices V2". The only switch that's not in there is a Decoder with Enable, there's just one without Enable. But if you get the circuit from the level, you can take a look at the one with Enable and it shouldn't be too hard to reproduce. Now let's start from the left: G - 2 Grab Switches, one set to one-shot and one to directional, they are both on the same material. The material they're on is the thing that sackboy has to grab in the end to get his different outputs. E,R - The directional Grab Switch is connected to 2 pistons, the Enable of the Decoder and to a Relay Switch. Both are set to about 0.8 seconds, so that they take 0.4 seconds to fully strech/retract. It might work with lower times, you have to experiment here. What this does: You have to hold the grab-material for at least 0.4 seconds to get your output (it will enable the Decoder). This is essential, because you probably don't want something to go off everytime you grab. The Relay does something similar, it tells the Decoder to reset to state 1 after an Output has been activated and you let go. The resetting is explained later on. T1 and T2 - These two are Toggle Switches, which function as single Bits. Both are connected to the two pistons of the Decoder, which decodes the binary on/off signal of the two to your Output #1, 2, 3 or 4. You can use any kind of Toggle Switch here, but I drew the graphic while having my version in mind, so the In/Outputs might change depending on what kind of Toggle you use. Things to keep in mind here: - Mine uses an emitter, so the Inputs are one-shot to the emitter. - Notice that T1 has two Outputs? The second inverted one-shot one is used to connect it to T2 (via OR Gate), so that the Bit Sequence goes like this (T1T2): 00 -> 10 -> 01 -> 11 -> 00 -> 10 -> loop I used an additional Magnetic Switch for this, it might also change depending on what kind of toggle you use. This already was the basic Switch-concept, the rest is just resetting the Decoder to 1 after you let go. &1,&2 - 2 AND Gates, which serve as if->then elements. The if-Input of &1 is the directional Out of T1 while the if-Input of &2 is the directional Out of T2. The then-Inputs (which are similar to the Enable of the Decoder) of both AND Gates is the one-shot Out of the Relay Switch. It is important to invert the relay-switch, otherwise it would reset if turned ON, not off. The direction of the flipper motion is also a matter of what kind of AND Gate you use. For my versions, I need outward motion. Do NOT use directional non-flipper motion here, because that would destroy the if-then effect. The DO Output of &1 is directional In to O1 and the Out of &2 is directional In to O2. What these AND Gates do: &1: if: T1 State is 1 --> then: set T1 State to 0 &2: if: T2 State is 1 --> then: set T2 State to 0 So basically, they just reset the Toggles (going through OR Gates) to their default State. This happens if an Output of the Decoder was activated and you let go the grab-material (remember, that's when the Output of the Relay activates.) O1,O2 - The final elements, 2 OR Gates which just serve as a kind of relay. Both the one-shot Grabswitch on the material and &1 should be able to toggle T1, so we use an OR Gate. One In from the one-shot grab and one In from &1, Out to T1 as one shot (for my emitter-using Toggle Switches). Same with O2: In 2 from &2. In 1 of O2 has to be the inverted one-shot-Out of T1 though, to achieve the bit-Sequence described earlier. The direction of the flipper motion again depends on what kind of OR Gate you use, I need inner. And that's already the whole thing. If you only want 2 Outputs, then you only need one Toggle, AND and OR, and no Decoder, because T1 already has 2 States. The Enable has to be added to the Toggle then. For 8 Outputs, you need 3 Toggles, ANDs and ORs and a 3-Bit Decoder etc. So one AND, OR per Toggle Switch (to reset them) where 2 to the power of the number of Toggle Switches is the number of different Outputs you get. Now here's exactly what this Mutli-hit Setup does (2-Bit Version): each time you grab, it will toggle the Decoder like this: 1->2, 2->3, 3->4, 4->1. It will ONLY activate an Output if you hold at least 0.4 seconds. At the same time, it will NOT reset if you let go before holding at least 0.4 seconds. This means that you can grab/let go once and come back minutes later and grab/hold 0.4 seconds and will get Output #2, not #1. It shouldn't be too hard to add a time-limit though, I think you would need like one OR Gate and an Input Deleter (see my switch level). Now that explanation might look a bit much and really complicated, but it's really not that hard. It's best if you just go and get the object in the level and compare the Graphic to the In-game realization. And you can always ask questions here and/or PM me if you want to know something. Good luck! --- other notes: -You can get all the switches I used for the Multi-hit setup in my Switch level "Shiwa's Devices V2". The timers in -1- and -2- are both the same object. It's the Relay Switch with different settings, but that's explained inside the level. -Know that you can chain these setups! You can easily have one single grabbable material have a lo of outputs. For example: Use the multi-hit setup and connect 2+ outputs to a charge setup with some outputs. However, keep in mind to go easy on the player and give him some feedback on what output he is currently choosing. Like I used lights at the charge setup in the level for example. -I wanted to add spoiler tags to shrink this post down, but they don't work somehow? ---

2009-01-25 23:13:00 Author: Shiwayari Posts: 167

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Sounds interesting, 'cept it's somewhat hard to imagine what they do/how they work with just a description After reading the Charge-Setup, I was thinking that you could do it by having the sponge with grab switch (directional) attached to a piston (with flipper - in) with the key at the end. So when you grab the sponge the piston would move slowly to the right/left, and have some AND switches below the path of the piston. So depending when you let go, the piston would be above an AND switch activating half the AND, and when you let go of the sponge that would activate the other half of the ANDs. Haven't tested it, but that's what I though of when I heard your explanation.

2009-01-25 23:36:00 Author: Trap_T Posts: 431

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Um, well, yeah; maybe I should have mentioned explicitely that I published the level that I messed around in under the same name as the title of this thread xD. You can see what the setups do in there. Read the -Important- part of the first post to get into the level. The flipper-motion was also my first bet, but I found it was very hard to get it to reset after one output and it got way to complex. "Saving" the last, fully charged state was also too complex. I used an emitter in the end, which solved both problems. Anyway, I'll edit the level so it shows the mechanics and post an explanation/diagram of the whole setup here later.

2009-01-26 08:51:00 Author: Shiwayari Posts: 167

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Wow man... I just tried this and that is awesome. I need one for my Metal Slug tank, as traditional 2 way and multiple switches just is not cutting it. That's why I just never put a directional change on it, because it was just too cumbersome and too jerky with the 3 ways tossing the player around. I have so many vehicles in build that I could use this for. It's such an intuitive control scheme, and it revolutionizes what one could do with machine builds. I could even use it on my Paintball 3000 ship for secondary fire or control schemes. That's so sick. ...BUT, trying to explain to players how to use it would be a waste of words. If they don't have an hour long set of tutorial levels from MM to explain how to do something they can't and won't understand it. Can't wait for the video!

2009-01-26 14:47:00 Author: Unknown User

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I just now looked at your avatar Shiwayari. Death Note Rules.

2009-01-26 17:18:00 Author: LordCanti07 Posts: 106

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great ideas. I haven't tried your level, but here's how I would do it. Multi-hit Sponge activates the first directional input to x number of AND gates, with the x being the number of hits you want to detect (and do something unique for all hits from 1 to x). AND gates serve as enables (or pass gates). The other input to the AND gate would be your enable signal, which is the hit detector. Hit detection can be done a number of ways; the best way is to have it hooked onto a generator generating paintballs with a one-shot paint switch set to the number of hits below. In order to preserve the direction or whatever the mag switch AND gate controls, use a one-shot to directional converter on your AND gate of choice. Of course, this is a relatively easy way to do it that does not take into account a way to compensate for quick grabs only registering one paintball instead of two. Also, it's hard on the thermometer with emitted paintballs and multiple paint switches per hit number. A better way involves emitting blocks but the tradeoff is latency. An example of this is the scoring system to the first part of my level, MR STAMP! ii. Charge-Setup Pistoned one-shot mag sensor with x number of AND gates lined up below (one of the inputs turns on when the mag sensor passes by; this mag switch also activates the light). When the user releases the sponge, the backwards one-shot input of the AND gate is activated and the respective "lighted" gate will be on. There are probably easier methods but this is how I would do it before optimization. I've also created an overheating system --- if you grab something too fast it will temporarily be disabled or "overheat." I am using this for a gun in my next level. If you're interested in complicated concepts, try out my level LBC1 - <ERADISACK> which uses a state machine and a shift register for menu selection. Be wary it's two-player, though ;-)

2009-01-26 17:34:00 Author: snowflakecat Posts: 102

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great ideas. I haven't tried your level, but here's how I would do it. Multi-hit Sponge activates the first directional input to x number of AND gates, with the x being the number of hits you want to detect (and do something unique for all hits from 1 to x). AND gates serve as enables (or pass gates). The other input to the AND gate would be your enable signal, which is the hit detector. Hit detection can be done a number of ways; the best way is to have it hooked onto a generator generating paintballs with a one-shot paint switch set to the number of hits below. In order to preserve the direction or whatever the mag switch AND gate controls, use a one-shot to directional converter on your AND gate of choice. Of course, this is a relatively easy way to do it that does not take into account a way to compensate for quick grabs only registering one paintball instead of two. Also, it's hard on the thermometer with emitted paintballs and multiple paint switches per hit number. A better way involves emitting blocks but the tradeoff is latency. An example of this is the scoring system to the first part of my level, MR STAMP! ii. Charge-Setup Pistoned one-shot mag sensor with x number of AND gates lined up below (one of the inputs turns on when the mag sensor passes by; this mag switch also activates the light). When the user releases the sponge, the backwards one-shot input of the AND gate is activated and the respective "lighted" gate will be on. There are probably easier methods but this is how I would do it before optimization. I've also created an overheating system --- if you grab something too fast it will temporarily be disabled or "overheat." I am using this for a gun in my next level. If you're interested in complicated concepts, try out my level LBC1 - <ERADISACK> which uses a state machine and a shift register for menu selection. Be wary it's two-player, though ;-) Thanks for the explanations, and the overheat sounds cool too. I picture that as a piston box... piston set to directional on grab switch, mag key extends and passes through radius, keeps extending and when it passes out of the radius, something with a finite life span emits to stop it from immediately retracting?

2009-01-26 18:25:00 Author: Unknown User

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Thanks for the explanations, and the overheat sounds cool too. I picture that as a piston box... piston set to directional on grab switch, mag key extends and passes through radius, keeps extending and when it passes out of the radius, something with a finite life span emits to stop it from immediately retracting? If you've played MR STAMP! ii, you might recall that the meowket launcher uses a very basic delay piston to stop users from spamming rockets. In the next MR STAMP!, I plan to have a device that can fire rockets but if the grabbing rate is faster than roughly 2.5 shots per second for 3 seconds, the firing will be disabled for 3 seconds. It's something like a directional grab switch, but there's much more to it-- try it yourself-- there are many logic gaps to fill when you start working with it ;-)

2009-01-26 19:35:00 Author: snowflakecat Posts: 102

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great ideas. I haven't tried your level, but here's how I would do it. Multi-hit Sponge activates the first directional input to x number of AND gates, with the x being the number of hits you want to detect (and do something unique for all hits from 1 to x). AND gates serve as enables (or pass gates). The other input to the AND gate would be your enable signal, which is the hit detector. Hit detection can be done a number of ways; the best way is to have it hooked onto a generator generating paintballs with a one-shot paint switch set to the number of hits below. In order to preserve the direction or whatever the mag switch AND gate controls, use a one-shot to directional converter on your AND gate of choice. Of course, this is a relatively easy way to do it that does not take into account a way to compensate for quick grabs only registering one paintball instead of two. Also, it's hard on the thermometer with emitted paintballs and multiple paint switches per hit number. A better way involves emitting blocks but the tradeoff is latency. An example of this is the scoring system to the first part of my level, MR STAMP! ii. Charge-Setup Pistoned one-shot mag sensor with x number of AND gates lined up below (one of the inputs turns on when the mag sensor passes by; this mag switch also activates the light). When the user releases the sponge, the backwards one-shot input of the AND gate is activated and the respective "lighted" gate will be on. There are probably easier methods but this is how I would do it before optimization. I've also created an overheating system --- if you grab something too fast it will temporarily be disabled or "overheat." I am using this for a gun in my next level. If you're interested in complicated concepts, try out my level LBC1 - <ERADISACK> which uses a state machine and a shift register for menu selection. Be wary it's two-player, though ;-) Maybe I don't get it, but I don't see how your multi-hit system would work like the one I set up. It seems to be a completly different setup and would certainly have other uses, but its not what I meant with Multi-hit Setup. How you discribed that setup, it would do -all- actions from 1 to x, for x presses. So if you grab three times, the events one, two, and three would be triggered. Your setup also won't be able to reset back to "status 1", because the paint switch saves how many times it was hit. Due to that, Input one would be triggered every time, Input two every second time and so on.. I have a similar concept in my Switch Collection Level - the one using a 2Bit Decoder. That one toggles between 4 Outputs, without being able to skip one. Not exactly what you described either, but similar. The way you described the Charge Setup is almost like how set it up, only that you didn't take in count how to reset it. The thing that wouldn't work with your setup (I'll just give an example): - You grab once, the one-shot flipper-piston goes off. - You wait until it's charged to state 2, let go, and Output 2 is triggered. Now the problem - - Even if you let go, the piston will still move to the end before going back. - So you just immidiately grab and let go again, triggering Output 3 without having charged before. This works, because if a flipper-piston is triggered one-shot while it is still moving, it will just go on moving and ignore the one-shot Input. I have updated the first post with explanations, so you can look there how I set these up. But I still encourage you to take a look at the "level", to see what the setups are all about and what they do exaclty.

2009-01-26 21:23:00 Author: Shiwayari Posts: 167

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0.0 thats crazy man, never would have thought of any of your 3 switches. thats very nice my friend, great work. Cheers!

2009-01-27 01:12:00 Author: RAINFIRE Posts: 1101

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Maybe I don't get it, but I don't see how your multi-hit system would work like the one I set up. It seems to be a completly different setup and would certainly have other uses, but its not what I meant with Multi-hit Setup. How you discribed that setup, it would do -all- actions from 1 to x, for x presses. So if you grab three times, the events one, two, and three would be triggered. Your setup also won't be able to reset back to "status 1", because the paint switch saves how many times it was hit. Due to that, Input one would be triggered every time, Input two every second time and so on.. I have a similar concept in my Switch Collection Level - the one using a 2Bit Decoder. That one toggles between 4 Outputs, without being able to skip one. Not exactly what you described either, but similar. The way you described the Charge Setup is almost like how set it up, only that you didn't take in count how to reset it. The thing that wouldn't work with your setup (I'll just give an example): - You grab once, the one-shot flipper-piston goes off. - You wait until it's charged to state 2, let go, and Output 2 is triggered. Now the problem - - Even if you let go, the piston will still move to the end before going back. - So you just immidiately grab and let go again, triggering Output 3 without having charged before. This works, because if a flipper-piston is triggered one-shot while it is still moving, it will just go on moving and ignore the one-shot Input. I have updated the first post with explanations, so you can look there how I set these up. But I still encourage you to take a look at the "level", to see what the setups are all about and what they do exaclty. yeah I just kind of rushed it, I apologize if I didn't get all the loose ends You're right about the first one with paint switches. I also forgot to talk about release delay and an enable/disable system for the grabbing. The counter was just an example I came up so it's flawed (I actually tried this for something else but in the end opted out for regular dissolve blocks). Thinking upon it again, there could be an additional AND condition for the output of each counter that disables the immediate counter before it once it's triggered. The way counters are reset to one depends on how many counts you're at upon a (optionally delayed) release. This can be done by emitting dissolve blocks in a vertical rail per counter. Dissolve blocks disappear once the paint switch one-shots a reset mag switch. That means overcounting would result in a the remainder: a discrete number of dissolve blocks, which will be used to count how many paintballs to emit for reset. The condition is triggered by release, of course. I might have some flaws that I didn't account for in this rushed re-evaluation in terms of adding more enables but that's the jist of it. (of course the dissolve blocks would have mag sensors and mag switches on them; alternatively, clearing them could be done mechanically) I've never used paint switch counters myself; the counters I use are dissolve blocks and as a result are thermometer intensive due to emitting mag switches and sensors. I think for huge counting numbers paint switch counters might be better than a full blown binary counter, but then again I haven't experimented enough with either one to warrant an accurate assessment. A mechanical means of counting could be better but I haven't experimented with that yet ;-) For the second one you could have a third enable that is only enabled for the duration of the flipper-in action, and another enable that disables input until the flipper comes back in. I think whether our ideas are similar or not is moot. The point is to share them with others ;-) Edit: OK I just read your update; interesting ideas but the system I described is more flexible but sacrifices that flexibility for a LOT more thermometer so I think your idea of delayed pistons is more feasible for levels that don't rely critically on the counting aspect. In fact, I use delayed one-shot pistons quite often in my levels for optimization. Analog vs. digital can be an analogy for it. As for the second device I think it's the same. It's an argument of roughly two more mag switches vs. generation. I'm not sure which one eats more thermometer, but I guess that also depends on how many outputs you want.

2009-01-27 01:49:00 Author: snowflakecat Posts: 102

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I just now looked at your avatar Shiwayari. Death Note Rules. Somehow overlooked your post before .. Well, yeah it does. And Light was the best character ever (though he was just a bit crazy in the end) 0.0 thats crazy man, never would have thought of any of your 3 switches. thats very nice my friend, great work. Cheers! Glad you liked it yeah I just kind of rushed it, I apologize if I didn't get all the loose ends You're right about the first one with paint switches. I also forgot to talk about release delay and an enable/disable system for the grabbing. The counter was just an example I came up so it's flawed (I actually tried this for something else but in the end opted out for regular dissolve blocks). Thinking upon it again, there could be an additional AND condition for the output of each counter that disables the immediate counter before it once it's triggered. The way counters are reset to one depends on how many counts you're at upon a (optionally delayed) release. This can be done by emitting dissolve blocks in a vertical rail per counter. Dissolve blocks disappear once the paint switch one-shots a reset mag switch. That means overcounting would result in a the remainder: a discrete number of dissolve blocks, which will be used to count how many paintballs to emit for reset. The condition is triggered by release, of course. I might have some flaws that I didn't account for in this rushed re-evaluation in terms of adding more enables but that's the jist of it. (of course the dissolve blocks would have mag sensors and mag switches on them; alternatively, clearing them could be done mechanically) I've never used paint switch counters myself; the counters I use are dissolve blocks and as a result are thermometer intensive due to emitting mag switches and sensors. I think for huge counting numbers paint switch counters might be better than a full blown binary counter, but then again I haven't experimented enough with either one to warrant an accurate assessment. A mechanical means of counting could be better but I haven't experimented with that yet ;-) For the second one you could have a third enable that is only enabled for the duration of the flipper-in action, and another enable that disables input until the flipper comes back in. I think whether our ideas are similar or not is moot. The point is to share them with others ;-) Edit: OK I just read your update; interesting ideas but the system I described is more flexible but sacrifices that flexibility for a LOT more thermometer so I think your idea of delayed pistons is more feasible for levels that don't rely critically on the counting aspect. In fact, I use delayed one-shot pistons quite often in my levels for optimization. Analog vs. digital can be an analogy for it. As for the second device I think it's the same. It's an argument of roughly two more mag switches vs. generation. I'm not sure which one eats more thermometer, but I guess that also depends on how many outputs you want. I actually use paintball-counters and it's currently the best and most thermo-light one that I know of. I did make a mechanical counter, and it's not too hard to come up with, but in the end it does exactly the same, though it might be a little easier to reset. Emitting a new one is still much easier though, and can be done with the paintball one too. However, using counters for the multi-hit setup would really make it more complex, but of course more flexible. Just like you said, my setup is not that flexible; I always try to keep it as simple as possible. I have experienced bad things with the thermo where sometimes just one little AND Gate makes it go up a whole notch.. Using really complex setups limits what you can put inside a level a lot, like you said. Of course it's still nice to have them, but you'd probably have to focus on certain aspects more. I also don't like explaining really complex setups, I rather explain a simple (or not too complex) one and let others think about how they want to modify it/make a different one for their own purposes for themselves. But that's just me. About the charge setup. I'm not sure how you would be able to do the same thing that the emitter does with roughly 2 magnetic switches? I can come up with a different solution, but I'd at least need a timer and an OR Gate and it would add a delay after each input.. just noticed that you said what I meant here too, disabling input until it's back. Well, I wouldn't like the delay then, imagine it takes 10seconds to fully charge .. D= For now, emitting is the best way I could come up with to instantly reset timers etc. And I found emitters don't take as much of the thermo as I thought they would (with "low" settings at least). Adding outputs to my charge setup is a matter of placing one additional magnetic switch per output plus an AND Gate, but the AND Gate doesn't have much to do with how I set it up, you'd somehow need one anyway. So I'm not sure I get what your idea of a more flexible setup for this one is.

2009-01-27 17:58:00 Author: Shiwayari Posts: 167

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well the thermometer-intensive setup I had envisioned would be more flexible in that the delays can be tweaked to a greater range than that of your setup. Counting to higher numbers would be easier to implement (no need to tweak the delay for each number). Edit: Care to explain how easy a purely mechanical counter would be to implement?

2009-01-27 22:07:00 Author: snowflakecat Posts: 102

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I see now what you mean. It's certainly not that comfortable to tweak the delays with my setup, but they still -can- be tweaked. It's up to who uses it if they want to sacrifice some thermo space for comfortability, I guess. With 'implement' I take you mean how it works? It's made of one one-shot piston timer like I used in the multi-hit setup at -1-, which is set to stay active for x seconds. This one is activated per switch and it's connected to a different timer, like the one in -2-. The only difference is that the second timer is set to on/off and needs y*x seconds to reach the other end, with y being the number of hits. The first timer should be set to about 0.2 or 0.1 seconds. It's also shown in my Switch Level as Counter V2, if you want to take a look. It's a little annoying to "initialize" this one though and it's not 100% perfectly precise, but it's not hard to fix that with some time-adjustments. Regarding initializing, I posted how I do it here (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=p=106521). I haven't really thought about how to reset it and now that I do, I think it's not that simple at all. You could have it reset after activating, just like the paint-switch, by just placing one more magnetic switch, but having it reset mid-way would require additional timers and logic gates.. I'd rather use the paintball-counter then and just emit a new one to reset.

2009-01-28 07:40:00 Author: Shiwayari Posts: 167

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what you described was not mechanical. I thought you were talking about a system that uses gears, strings, springs, etc with no LBP switches. Non-mechanical to me would be using mag switches, buttons, and anything involving a green wire.

2009-01-29 03:16:00 Author: snowflakecat Posts: 102

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Ow my brain...

2009-01-29 04:26:00 Author: Madafaku Posts: 738

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what you described was not mechanical. I thought you were talking about a system that uses gears, strings, springs, etc with no LBP switches. Non-mechanical to me would be using mag switches, buttons, and anything involving a green wire. Ah well, so you meant -purely- mechanical. I thought you just meant without 'magic' like emitters. Electronic devices are not mechanical yeah.. at least the piston is kind of mechanical xD But I'm not sure if purely mechanical switches would be that useful. I didn't even try to think of even one yet. Mechanical In/Outputs would be hard to realize too, it might overly complicate things. But making some mechanical switches just for the hell of it could be fun

2009-01-29 12:57:00 Author: Shiwayari Posts: 167

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But making some mechanical switches just for the hell of it could be fun seriously I want to try it but I know too little of mechanical counting systems... maybe I should stop by the library sometime and do a little research ;-P By the way I think your systems are really really clever and save tons of thermometer but might be a little complicated to setup for the typical LBP creator. Oh I'd like to add that there's an easier way to emit something in place. Set max emitted to 1 and stick an invisible dark matter to the object. That's how my infinite checkpoints work ;P

2009-02-06 08:07:00 Author: snowflakecat Posts: 102

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So I had some time to play LBP for a change and I decided to think of a better Multi-hit Setup. I think what I got is pretty nice. I republished the level, the "lock" at the beginning is removed so everyone can look at the stuff. I added some jetpacks to fly to the switches. The new multi-hit setup is at the end and I also gave it away as object. And there's a scoreboard now. I will now edit the opening post of this thread, adding an explanation how the new setup works. Might take some time though. Edit: First post is now updated with an explanation. _____ @snowflakecat Hmm.. I even used the "emit in place" technique in my other level. Somehow it didn't pop up in my mind for this one ^^ I could quickly modify it, but I'm too lazy to do it right now =o And yeah I agree it's probably not that easy for the avarage LBP player (let's not even think of 10- year olds), but it's also **** hard to make it effective, thermo-light AND easy to understand. Btw I played your switch level earlier and I had a hard time understanding what was going on, but I kinda got most of it after trying it out in create. Though I've never heard most of the words you used xD (note I'm not native english speaker =o) Did you study informatics or something?

2009-02-15 16:57:00 Author: Shiwayari Posts: 167

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Btw I played your switch level earlier and I had a hard time understanding what was going on, but I kinda got most of it after trying it out in create. Though I've never heard most of the words you used xD (note I'm not native english speaker =o) Did you study informatics or something? Oh boy, looks like the level isn't very effective =(. I studied Physics and Electrical Engineering (pursued EE for Master's). Hmm, I kind of figured that the symbols were recognizable at least? The symbols and logic elements (as well as their names) are universal.

2009-02-16 10:22:00 Author: snowflakecat Posts: 102

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Oh boy, looks like the level isn't very effective =(. I studied Physics and Electrical Engineering (pursued EE for Master's). Hmm, I kind of figured that the symbols were recognizable at least? The symbols and logic elements (as well as their names) are universal. I wouldn't say it's not effective, it just isn't for ones that don't know anything about this stuff. I found at least one of your switches useful and redesigned it for my own uses, forgot what it was called though. I did recognize the symbols, but I'm sure a lot of people don't know them. I wouldn't either if I didn't know them out of my own interest. Might seem like a natural thing to a physics/EE student =o. I'm not finished with school yet, but most LBP probably aren't; actually, we're starting with logic circuits in our informatics class right now. So, I would like to get back to topic, if anyone wants to comment at all .. =? Any comments/questions on the new Multi-hit Setup?

2009-02-16 13:13:00 Author: Shiwayari Posts: 167

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