LittleBigPlanet 2 - 3 - Vita - Karting #1
We should copy levels
Archive: 59 posts
| Please re-read the first post, because you may have misinterpreted my method. 1. Creators will copy generic, commonly already copied levels (bomb survivals, etc.) before their next big real release. 2. Creators' earths will be put to the top of the cool pages and so their good levels that they are planning to publish will also make it to the cool page. 3. By doing this we can reduce the number of copied levels on the cool pages to (ideally) 50%. | 2013-05-26 06:32:00 Author: Unknown User  |
| I won't copy and other peoples levels. I don't like taking credit for other creators works, its not nice or fair. I might copy it to my moon if i like it but i want repost it. I only copy it to my moon if i like it and if i want to play it when ever i'm not online. | 2013-05-26 17:49:00 Author: Thug_Life_EQ  Posts: 181 |
I think someone should set this hypothesis to the test and see what kind of results occur.  | 2013-05-26 17:53:00 Author: Momoli1344  Posts: 54 |
| I will be doing this in order to get my good levels noticed, as I believe everyone should. I'll post the results in maybe a few month's time, EDIT: I won't copy and other peoples levels. I don't like taking credit for other creators works, its not nice or fair. I might copy it to my moon if i like it but i want repost it. I only copy it to my moon if i like it and if i want to play it when ever i'm not online. I expect people to be unwilling, as the proposal is radical. However if you really care about the community you should be willing to do anything to improve it. | 2013-05-26 18:05:00 Author: Unknown User |
| I left Little Big Planet over the course of this school year because I became busy. The same thing will happen after this summer. But that doesn't mean I can't make a difference or even try by sharing my idea. We are the community. We make up a majority of players and creators and are the brightest minds of Little Big Planet. So why don't we get plays? Because there's something like... 20,000+ of us all scrambling to get attention. In addition to this, a lot of the community makes very little effort to actually entice players. I can't count the number of lazily created Level Showcase threads I've seen posted here on LBPC. No pics, no information, sometimes even no links. The other issue is that people just expect several thousand plays over night. You can't get those sorts of play counts if you're not dedicated and been around for a long time. Unless of course, you get lucky with some sort of community deal, such as MM Picks or a Spotlight. The attention you earn mounts up as time goes on. You need to start small and work your way up. Also, I'm not so sure about us being the majority. The casual playerbase wildly outnumbers us. Why aren't we recognized? Because you're not doing anything worth noting. Sorry buddy, but I simply can't remember every name I read. Especially not people who admittedly come and go depending on their time management. Plus, copying levels works to the exact other purpose - while it will spread one level around - (Somewhat. It's only when the major spammers copy certain levels they gain any sort of traction.) it won't give much, if any credit to the original author. We see copied levels all the time, but it's almost impossible to trace back to the original creator. It is because we aren't organized because we've never had a reason to be. Huh? We look pretty organised to me. Lovely fansites. Various feature crews across all the sites, such as the Spotlight Crew on here. Competitions, level showcases, help sections. What do you want from us? How much more organisation do you expect the community to have? The only way to organize is to do what the community does: copy levels. Evidently not. I propose that we all copy levels, start a new forum on the site to announce them, and play, rate and heart these levels in order to get good creators on top of the cool pages. No one cares about CPs. Plus 'Good Creators' won't be on the CPs - random level copiers will. Perpetuating the current sorry state of the CPs. Why stoop to such a low level? We aren't stooping down at all. That's just silly. Of course we are. You're taking a bunch of grown up creators and telling them to resort to childishness. We have always been, every one of us, intent on making the community better by publishing good levels. Now we need to help the community by publishing bad ones as well as good ones. How the hell is that going to do anything? Your plan is to help good creators... By clogging up Recent Activity with bad levels from randoms? Huh? As creators we are inclined to control what appears on the cool pages no matter through what method. The ends do not justify the means. And your plan of copying any old tat would change nothing. Absolutely nothing. Your plan amounts to... Replacing randoms copying random levels from other randoms with a few good levels mixed in there, with randoms copying random levels from other randoms with a few good levels mixed in there. | 2013-05-26 18:46:00 Author: Ostler5000  Posts: 1017 |
| You need to start small and work your way up. I did this before and it worked well. However the cool pages today shows this method had become unsuccessful because the community has died down over time. Also, I'm not so sure about us being the majority. The casual playerbase wildly outnumbers us. The only proof you have of this is that the cool pages is a mess. But you neglect to understand all mathematical factors. Copied levels are popular because the community is organized. Now let me define what I mean by organized, as I believe you took a different meaning from it. I mean that the community of "players" rather than "creators" has power over us because it is tradition for them to play copied levels and rate them up, etc. They don't even think about it. The trouble is we do, and now because our community has shrunk we do not have the pure brunt force that we once had, and we must now act as the community does in order to improve the community. Plus, copying levels works to the exact other purpose - while it will spread one level around - (Somewhat. It's only when the major spammers copy certain levels they gain any sort of traction.) it won't give much, if any credit to the original author. We see copied levels all the time, but it's almost impossible to trace back to the original creator. Yes, we will be spreading levels. The same levels that are already on the cool pages (shark survival, etc.). However in doing this we will also be showcasing creators to the community with their levels separated from the copied ones, thus improving the community by giving a means to the general public with which to find new, good levels. The real levels will be on the same earth as the copied ones so they can be found. It's almost like they are on the cool pages, except they aren't technically. Huh? We look pretty organised to me. Lovely fansites. Various feature crews across all the sites, such as the Spotlight Crew on here. Competitions, level showcases, help sections. What do you want from us? How much more organisation do you expect the community to have? We are exceptionally organized, I agree. I meant organized in a different fashion though, sorry if you misinterpreted. No one cares about CPs. Plus 'Good Creators' won't be on the CPs - random level copiers will. Perpetuating the current sorry state of the CPs. This blatant kind of disregard for the state of the community in game makes me sick, quite frankly. Everyone should care about the state of LBP. Yes, "Good creators won't be on the CP" because we have the inability to be. If we copy levels which mean nothing to us and also publish levels just as normally, good levels will make it on the the CPs indirectly. I think you misinterpreted my philosophy behind the copying. That's just silly. Of course we are. You're taking a bunch of grown up creators and telling them to resort to childishness. The Cool pages is based on math. Morals have nothing to do with this, numbers do. Childishness is not a factor in this because we are doing what we can to save the cool pages where MM has stopped. We would be improving the CPs inadvertently how is that childish. How the hell is that going to do anything? Your plan is to help good creators... By clogging up Recent Activity with bad levels from randoms? Huh? Sentences like these show me you do not understand the process i tried to describe, so I will restate it in a more understandable way. First we will copy levels. We will get famous with them and get our EARTHS on the cool pages. After the public plays these levels, they may or may not check the rest of the earth. If they do, they will find another side to the earth with created levels that we as the community are actually proud of. This will improve the community by adding to the bad levels and good levels EQUALLY rather than the current state, which is just a rise in bad levels. The ends do not justify the means. There is no trickery or bad morality in this plan. All it is doing is getting good levels on the cool pages by adding them through the earths of copied levels. Would you rather have an earth full of copied levels o the CP or earths with half copied/ half real levels? It is a striking improvement and the only improvement we have the power to do anymore. It is a good deed and has no ruinous effects. EDIT: I know it is in us as caring creators to vomit at the sight of this proposal. That's why it took me so long to think of. However we are just taking what we can now in order to help the community. We can improve the community in a small way and all we have to do is be more united as a community through a system easily created on the forum. | 2013-05-26 20:05:00 Author: Unknown User |
 why copy levels and push them if we also could release good, original levels and push >them< ? i'm not sure why addiotional spamming on the cool pages should make them better | 2013-05-26 20:10:00 Author: Shaggy Vinci  Posts: 969 |
 why copy levels and push them if we also could release good, original levels and push >them< ? i'm not sure why addiotional spamming on the cool pages should make them betterThis is a legitamite question. The answer is that copied levels in the recent state of the cool pages make it and good levels do not anymore. The same thing happened with LBP1, but we can do things differently this time. We can easily get copied levels on the cool pages and on the other side of the same earth as the copied level have our real levels. This way the community will have access to good levels, all they have to do is search the earths of the copied levels that have already made it. | 2013-05-26 20:13:00 Author: Unknown User |
| Ya, i understand the original thinking behind, but don't u think the access to good levels would be way more directly, if the good levels themselfes are on the cool pages? with a good push every level gets on the cool pages, not just the bad ones. Dat worked fine by now | 2013-05-26 20:20:00 Author: Shaggy Vinci Posts: 969 |
| Ya, i understand the original thinking behind, but don't u think the access to good levels would be way more directly, if the good levels themselfes are on the cool pages? with a good push every level gets on the cool pages, not just the bad ones. Dat worked fine by now It hasnt worked though, as evidenced by the cool pages right now. Getting the good levels on the cool pages has been the goal of the community since the beginning, my proposal is more of a question I suppose: "Is it the point in LBP's life cycle that we need to meet the 'player community' halfway or do we believe that we still have power over the cool pages"? | 2013-05-26 20:23:00 Author: Unknown User |
Well, i simply think we don't need to gain any kind of control over the cool pages. I don't care about the bad levels on the cool pages, aslong as the good ones are still there, too  let's make a deal, if u got a level dat cool that everybody on little big planet has to play it, i'll help u pushing it onto cool page 1, but please don't think about copying levels any more | 2013-05-26 20:36:00 Author: Shaggy Vinci Posts: 969 |
| It hasnt worked though, as evidenced by the cool pages right now. Getting the good levels on the cool pages has been the goal of the community since the beginning, Then we got MM Picks and the fansite News Entries plus their respective Hub levels. Let the general playerbase keep the Cool Pages with their silly behaviour - we don't need them any more. | 2013-05-26 20:39:00 Author: Ostler5000 Posts: 1017 |
| I believe you guys are kind of missing the point, but that's my opinion. I will do my method and you will do yours, and if I get grief for it I've got the philosophy behind it and do not believe I am doing anything wrong. See you all this summer. If you guys are content with either having it all or having nothing then that is your philosophy which is perfectly acceptable. Well, i simply think we don't need to gain any kind of control over the cool pages. I don't care about the bad levels on the cool pages, aslong as the good ones are still there, too let's make a deal, if u got a level dat cool that everybody on little big planet has to play it, i'll help u pushing it onto cool page 1, but please don't think about copying levels any more The problem with what you say here is that other people are not as understanding about the importance of getting creators on the cool pages and thus will not help some random person get on the pages despite the quality of their levels. I got on the cool pages several times and have no qualms about not making it there again, but I think improving the community by giving the still-existing creators a chance is a good project for the community to take into consideration. I would rather meet the community halfway and have copied levels as well as good levels on the cool pages rather than have either copied levels or good levels, but maybe that makes me too conservative. | 2013-05-26 20:50:00 Author: Unknown User |
| This wont really help the community though will it? 1) Considering how many LBP players there are, about 30,000+, if everyone tries this radical manoeuvre to get their level s noticed, the entire LBP community will just be a cluster-**** (pardon me) of re-copied levels, which will pretty much back-log the entire system. 2) Tons of crappy creators, who feel that their levels should get more attention, even though they spent 1 day making it, will be the only people who will actually be interested in this idea, because that is the only way they will get plays because they don't have the skill or the dedication too work hard to make good levels. 3) I highly doubt that anyone would be willing to copy another persons levels just so they can get plays for it unless they truly believe they deserve plays. People who just dive-in all the time and meet random people and add them will be the only people who do this, but then again those are the people who make thos stupid "scene" costumes, and make stupid levels that took them 20 minutes. They have a full friends-list of exactly the same people, so the only levels that will get mass-copied will be the crap ones. 4) There is no way to spread your idea effectively. These forums are alive, but no everyone is on these. About a qa=uarter the LBP players will see this, max, and most of them will either be disgusted by this idea, or simply just shrug it off as impossible. Most of the good creators that deserve credit but don't get it are the ones that don't come on here and promote their levels anyway, so they wont be able to follow you plan, so the levels you are trying to help will get under-represented. 5) You keep saying "people don't understand the importance of getting on the cool levels" Why is it so important? Surely, and I find this, when you publish a level, you should feel content that you've done your best and created your masterpiece of imagination. It shouldn't always be about "I need to get this onto cool levels, how can I do this the fastest?" I know it's cools to be represented on the cool levels, but I find it's more important to be happy with what you've made. If my friends, or just random people who come across my level and play it, are impressed by my level and heart it then I am happy with my work. It's not like getting on the cool levels page gets you any prize, or getting 1,000 or 10,000 plays or hearts gets you any prize, unless you really want the platinum trophy. Sure, MM Picks gets you the crown trophy, but if your levels are truly masterpieces that you claim they're then they should get MM picks in no time. | 2013-05-26 21:09:00 Author: Unknown User |
| and thus will not help some random person get on the pages. ya, but dat random person you're speaking from isn't involved in your plan and won't become famous due to copying levels. Well, maybe i'm missing the point  don't mind, do your method; tell us if it is of use | 2013-05-26 21:22:00 Author: Shaggy Vinci Posts: 969 |
| This is my opinion: I totally understand you iiavalanchei. It's so hard if you create with big enthusiasm and full of passion and nearly nobody plays your level. That's unfair and sad. Especially when you see the 187th mortal combat level has 5000 plays. But you shouldn't fight against something wrong by doing wrong things too. I don't believe we can manage that all of our levels reach 1000 or more plays, but I strongly believe, we could help the creators of this forum to get some plays, some help to improve their skills, some fair reviews. -> Yes, we as community of LBPC can give a lot of creators the attention, they deserves! Go to the showroom. Play the published levels. Write a review. And if we only would write three words: it would show the creator: "Yay. Somebody has seen my creativity. Somebody has played my level. Somebody noticed me! I am not alone with my level. That's great!" If half of the active members here would play all levels from the showroom, every level would have more than 100 plays in a very short time. Do you play most levels of the showroom? Do you leave a small review or just a sign which shows the publisher you noticed the level? Well, I do (Ps3 section, I don't have a Vita). Search the showroom: I bet 95% of the published levels have a play and 90% have a small review from me. Now imagine, if 50 other members would do the same. Do you realize, what I want to point out? So, please don't misunderstand me. I repeat: I totally agree with you about the sadness of the cool pages and the fact so much passionated creators have nearly no plays. But: in my opinion your idea to copy levels is not able to cure this "disease". In my opinion, we all should stop annoying about this, but we should start to PLAY the published levels. We should encourage new creators. And we should help each other by giving us the attention we all deserves. I believe this way would help much more. And its fun to explore the community levels.  | 2013-05-26 22:07:00 Author: avundcv  Posts: 2526 |
| I think the most important thing for people to do is to show levels to their friends, as you spread it for more plays and they can spread it and so on... I like where avundcv is going with the whole idea of trying to get people interested in playing other people's levels. I might start a thread which people can give a short presentation to show off your level. I will provide a little format so it makes it easier for people who are not computing-fluent. It's so people can gain views, without having to do all this copy business, as they will be able to quickly queue levels. Check the [LBP2] Ideas and Project forum because the thread will be up soon! | 2013-05-27 00:35:00 Author: Unknown User |
| Ahh the famous "I don't wanna be a hypocrite argument". Totally didn't see that one coming. We aren't doing anything wrong by copying levels if everyone does it. Do you think we will just continuously copy levels? no, only when we are about to pyblish a new, real level. So we are just ultra-advertising with the copied level. People thus have the option to ignore the level and look for the real one. We are publishing a level the only difference is it has a different name-tag and description. What is so immoral about that, improving the community? nothing. EDIT: I think the most important thing for people to do is to show levels to their friends, as you spread it for more plays and they can spread it and so on... Let me re-word this sentence for you. "I think we should keep the same exact system as the one we have now." EDIT: Its always easy to say in an argument that the simplest solution is always the best one, but that is a logical fallacy. Do you think, that if I wanted to make a difference, I'd make a thread saying "everyone make good levels and get them high" (which is what we ALWAYS do), and think that would change anything. The sad truth is good levels dont always make it because the copied levels get in the way. Instead of them being in the way, why don't we use them to promote good creator's earth instead of the same drab levels for eternity. I don't care about the first person to make a bomb survival. Im sick and tired of bomb survivals. So why don't we make it possible to ignore bomb survivals? Answer me that instead of skirting around my argument and telling me it won't work so i can endlessly explain why it will with 20 questions. | 2013-05-27 03:30:00 Author: Unknown User |
| 5) You keep saying "people don't understand the importance of getting on the cool levels" Why is it so important? Surely, and I find this, when you publish a level, you should feel content that you've done your best and created your masterpiece of imagination. It shouldn't always be about "I need to get this onto cool levels, how can I do this the fastest?" I know it's cools to be represented on the cool levels, but I find it's more important to be happy with what you've made. If my friends, or just random people who come across my level and play it, are impressed by my level and heart it then I am happy with my work. It's not like getting on the cool levels page gets you any prize, or getting 1,000 or 10,000 plays or hearts gets you any prize, unless you really want the platinum trophy. Sure, MM Picks gets you the crown trophy, but if your levels are truly masterpieces that you claim they're then they should get MM picks in no time. This is the best point here. To truly discuss this issue, I think we have to answer a few questions. Firstly, what is wrong with the Cool Pages? Well, you could say that it is filled with bad levels, taking the attention away from good levels. That implies that attention is a good thing which good levels should have and bad levels shouldn't. But the Cool Pages has a very specific definition of attention: plays. It doesn't take into account reviews, yays, or hearts-just plays. So by saying the Cool Pages are giving bad levels all the attention that good levels deserve, you are pretty much saying that attention=plays, and since attention=good, then plays=good. But are plays good? Really? They're just a number. And yes, more plays means more attention but more attention does not mean better attention. Take my level, "How Media Molecule Got the Idea For the Negativitron", which got on the Cool Pages in late 2011. http://lbp.me/v/76kjke You'll see that most of the reviews are trash. There's a few good bits in there, but most of it is just first class junk, from the 100 reviews saying "LOL" to that one saying "my grandma had an org*sm". Now look at my other level, "SackDroid - Part 1: A Train Crash". Barely past 100 measly plays, and since plays=attention, this level is so devoid of "attention" that it could practically shrivel up. http://lbp.me/v/h3qtcq All of the reviews are great. They're the best reviews I've ever gotten on any of my levels. I feel much better about this than "How Media Molecule Got the Idea For the Negativitron". But wait! How could I possibly feel better about this when it didn't get on the Cool Pages? Doesn't plays=attention=good? I should be 100 times as happy about Negativitron than SackDroid! Ahh, but here's the thing. I worked 100 times harder on SackDroid than Negativitron. I sunk half a year into it, compared to the 1 month on the latter. If I had a choice between deleting SackDroid or Negativitron, I'd delete Negativitron in a heartbeat. Despite it not getting a spotlight or Mm pick or 15 minutes on the Cool Pages I am proud of it, and the few people who played and reviewed are proud of it too, and chances are them and I would both be as proud whether it gets plays or not. Could it be possible that plays do not necessarily equal good? Indeed so! You don't publish levels to get them on the Cool Pages! You publish them to show the world your proud creation and let them enjoy it as you did, no matter how small "they" may be! After all, the who's didn't cry when the Grinch stole their presents. They knew presents were just a material thing, not unlike plays, and that the real thing that mattered was the celebration. | 2013-05-27 04:36:00 Author: Kalawishis  Posts: 928 |
| It's not hard for creators to get their level noticed if they really are worthy of it. I'm not saying you'll get tons of play guarantee if your level is amazing but you'll at least get a decent amount of plays if you do the effort of spreading it. If you're a underrated creator, you'll eventually get recognized and get a decent amount of popularity which will lead to self satisfaction and motivation on pursuing your creating madness if you do the effort of getting it heard off. Sorry to say this but, if you do the effort to be recognized by spreading your levels and yet you're not getting much plays it's probably because it's still not worthy of mentioning yet. The only hidden creators out there who I feel sad for are the ones that don't know how to spread their levels through the internet (fansites,twitter,etc..). Our job is to recommend those levels. If your goal is to get hidden creators or levels 10k+ plays sorry but it won't happen, remember, we are a minority. I know it's a burden to make the effort of getting it known after doing the effort of making the level but that's just how it is. if you spread your levels Trending page ----> Plays Feedback ----> Makes you a better creator, self satisfaction, Plays Spotlighted ----> Plays People will talk about it, make video about it ----> Plays ...Mm Pick ----> Plays How to make you're level heard off - Post it on every single fan site out there. - Put it on your signature. - Tweet it! - Make a video about it or ask someone to capture it for you. - F4F system, leave a feedback on someone's level and he'll plays yours and also leave a fb. - Constantly republish your level (it will be on the new levels page). - Be annoying, but not too much  There's no such thing as a amazing levels that doesn't get a decent amount of plays (400+) if you spread it. The only exception are the one who don't know how to spread and don't have friends who can spread them. > IMO Although, I must admit, some levels deserve way more plays than just 500-2000 but we are a minority and we can't get all dem levels 10k+. Getting 500 plays is quite a lot actually or even hearts, imagine 500 people in front of you who hearted (loved) your level. | 2013-05-27 04:48:00 Author: Sport_dude  Posts: 622 |
| But are plays good? Really? They're just a number. And yes, more plays means more attention but more attention does not mean better attention. Take my level, "How Media Molecule Got the Idea For the Negativitron", which got on the Cool Pages in late 2011. http://lbp.me/v/76kjke You'll see that most of the reviews are trash. There's a few good bits in there, but most of it is just first class junk, from the 100 reviews saying "LOL" to that one saying "my grandma had an org*sm". Now look at my other level, "SackDroid - Part 1: A Train Crash". Barely past 100 measly plays, and since plays=attention, this level is so devoid of "attention" that it could practically shrivel up. http://lbp.me/v/h3qtcq All of the reviews are great. They're the best reviews I've ever gotten on any of my levels. I feel much better about this than "How Media Molecule Got the Idea For the Negativitron". But wait! How could I possibly feel better about this when it didn't get on the Cool Pages? Doesn't plays=attention=good? I should be 100 times as happy about Negativitron than SackDroid! Ahh, but here's the thing. I worked 100 times harder on SackDroid than Negativitron. I sunk half a year into it, compared to the 1 month on the latter. If I had a choice between deleting SackDroid or Negativitron, I'd delete Negativitron in a heartbeat. Despite it not getting a spotlight or Mm pick or 15 minutes on the Cool Pages I am proud of it, and the few people who played and reviewed are proud of it too, and chances are them and I would both be as proud whether it gets plays or not. Could it be possible that plays do not necessarily equal good? Indeed so! You don't publish levels to get them on the Cool Pages! You publish them to show the world your proud creation and let them enjoy it as you did, no matter how small "they" may be! After all, the who's didn't cry when the Grinch stole their presents. They knew presents were just a material thing, not unlike plays, and that the real thing that mattered was the celebration. You are the first person to come to me with a well thought out argument with multiple levels of consideration. I applaud you greatly for that, I've learned that half the people on here will argue for the sake of arguing and not proving their opinion with thoughts. I will refute your argument by restating it in a worse light that still conveys the general thought of your argument. Basically what your saying is that plays are not good for good creators to have because they are "too good" for the community. This is an enticing view-point that one would be tempted to follow except for one thing: you are basically saying that when you go to the grocery store (the cool levels page) you would rather see endless advertisements for apples (bomb survivals) rather than a variety of advertisements for different things (bomb survivals, platformers, versus games...). If everyone copies levels the advertisements are given variety. That is my point. I would like to state AGAIN that i have ZERO alternative motives for suggesting this, nor do I believe that plays have anything to do with your ability as a creator or your appeal as a person. EDIT: It's not hard for creators to get their level noticed if they really are worthy of it. I'm not saying you'll get tons of play guarantee if your level is amazing but you'll at least get a decent amount of plays if you do the effort of spreading it. If you're a underrated creator, you'll eventually get recognized and get a decent amount of popularity which will lead to self satisfaction and motivation on pursuing your creating madness if you do the effort of getting it heard off. Sorry to say this but, if you do the effort to be recognized by spreading your levels and yet you're not getting much plays it's probably because it's still not worthy of mentioning yet. The only hidden creators out there who I feel sad for are the ones that don't know how to spread their levels through the internet (fansites,twitter,etc..). Our job is to recommend those levels. If your goal is to get hidden creators or levels 10k+ plays sorry but it won't happen, remember, we are a minority. I know it's a burden to make the effort of getting it known after doing the effort of making the level but that's just how it is. if you spread your levels Trending page ----> Plays Feedback ----> Makes you a better creator, self satisfaction, Plays Spotlighted ----> Plays People will talk about it, make video about it ----> Plays ...Mm Pick ----> Plays How to make you're level heard off - Post it on every single fan site out there. - Put it on your signature. - Tweet it! - Make a video about it or ask someone to capture it for you. - F4F system, leave a feedback on someone's level and he'll plays yours and also leave a fb. - Constantly republish your level (it will be on the new levels page). - Be annoying, but not too much There's no such thing as a amazing levels that doesn't get a decent amount of plays (400+) if you spread it. The only exception are the one who don't know how to spread and don't have friends who can spread them. > IMO Although, I must admit, some levels deserve way more plays than just 500-2000 but we are a minority and we can't get all dem levels 10k+. Getting 500 plays is quite a lot actually or even hearts, imagine 500 people in front of you who hearted (loved) your level. You did not state an argument but rather explained the situation of the community in a more deep perception. This deserves praise because it contributed to the argument. I have realized the things you have said quite awhile ago, and there is no doubt in my mind that I could get to the 1st page without copying levels given enough time. However, I am proposing this because it is a good idea that can help the xommunity as a whole. Not everyone has the power that is required to do the things you explain. And why should they have that power? Is LBP a popularity contest? YES. By copying levels it wouldn't be. | 2013-05-27 07:03:00 Author: Unknown User |
| The copiers have multiple ps3 dummy accounts some have upwards of 30 accounts and no life , your idea is blasphemy , lbp doesnt need any more copied rubbish.Your logic is flawed we dont care about being cool or trendy we just build what we like , ive got 40 plays this year and im happy , you should be too . | 2013-05-27 13:18:00 Author: Brutal  Posts: 184 |
| Its always easy to say in an argument that the simplest solution is always the best one, but that is a logical fallacy. Do you think, that if I wanted to make a difference, I'd make a thread saying "everyone make good levels and get them high" (which is what we ALWAYS do), and think that would change anything. The sad truth is good levels dont always make it because the copied levels get in the way. Instead of them being in the way, why don't we use them to promote good creator's earth instead of the same drab levels for eternity. I don't care about the first person to make a bomb survival. Im sick and tired of bomb survivals. So why don't we make it possible to ignore bomb survivals? Answer me that instead of skirting around my argument and telling me it won't work so i can endlessly explain why it will with 20 questions. I just want to ask you a question, slightly about your motive to try to understand where you're coming from. Why are you so hell-bent on getting on the Cool Levels page? I know it must be cool to have your hard work pay off by getting some recognition, but there is not direct prize for getting tons of plays or hearts, unless you want the trophy. MM Picks are different as you get the crown, I guess, but your levels have to be out of this world to be MM Picked. Anyway, your entire thread is based upon getting on the Cool Levels page, but I still don't understand why this is. I'm not trying to criticize you and say you're selfish, I'm trying to keep an open mind about this so I want to know why. Also, the Cool Levels page is synonymous to being filled with absolute garbage levels, although there might be a few good ones hidden in there. Getting your level on their wouldn't really mean anything for it, as people would just assume it's the regular crap that's on their. Although I guess your entire movement is to reverse this by filling the Cool Levels page with deserving levels so that it becomes known for good levels instead of bomb survivals, so to be honest I kind of agree with this thread, although I think the way this would be carried out would need some tweaking. Looking forward to your response to see what you have to say! | 2013-05-27 14:13:00 Author: Unknown User |
| EHM ladies and gentelmens. I only see LATIN player and his other account copying. for lbp2 ofc. and he made this thing. why sony dont ban him and we just get cool page cleaned? | 2013-05-27 19:05:00 Author: Five-Ate-Five  Posts: 197 |
| I just want to ask you a question, slightly about your motive to try to understand where you're coming from. Why are you so hell-bent on getting on the Cool Levels page? I myself have no desire to get back on the Cool Levels page because I have done it before. I encourage you to look through the things that I have said and try to cite a piece of information that suggests that my motives are in order to help myself and not the community. First of all I want to point out the important part of the title of this thread "We Should Copy Levels". My philosophy only works if most of the members of the community copy levels so that a good number of these better quality earths will make it to the cool pages. If we all copy levels we all make it to the cool pages before each new release and all we are doing is adding good levels to the cool pages and accepting the existence of the pre-existing bad levels. EDIT: EHM ladies and gentelmens. I only see LATIN player and his other account copying. for lbp2 ofc. and he made this thing. why sony dont ban him and we just get cool page cleaned? Latin player is just a symbol, nothing more. He is not the plight of LBP, the nature of the community is. EDIT: ive got 40 plays this year and im happy , you should be too . I am perfectly content, and happy that you are too. However you are thinking with a selfish prospective. Its not about you, its about getting your better than bomb-survival levels to the cool pages so the pages are worth looking at. "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." - JFK | 2013-05-27 19:52:00 Author: Unknown User |
| @iiavalanchei: It would be a good idea if you finally would stop doubleposting. You can use the edit function and you can multiquote (as Lady_Luck___777 told you with her edit from 1 :55 PM). Causing the Mods that work to edit your postings again and again is not very friendly. You did 3 or 4 doublepostings in 10 minutes. Thank you, mate. Edit: at this moment she edited your post. She is fast | 2013-05-27 20:05:00 Author: avundcv Posts: 2526 |
| You are the first person to come to me with a well thought out argument with multiple levels of consideration. I applaud you greatly for that, I've learned that half the people on here will argue for the sake of arguing and not proving their opinion with thoughts. I will refute your argument by restating it in a worse light that still conveys the general thought of your argument. Basically what your saying is that plays are not good for good creators to have because they are "too good" for the community. This is an enticing view-point that one would be tempted to follow except for one thing: you are basically saying that when you go to the grocery store (the cool levels page) you would rather see endless advertisements for apples (bomb survivals) rather than a variety of advertisements for different things (bomb survivals, platformers, versus games...). If everyone copies levels the advertisements are given variety. That is my point. I would like to state AGAIN that i have ZERO alternative motives for suggesting this, nor do I believe that plays have anything to do with your ability as a creator or your appeal as a person. EDIT: You did not state an argument but rather explained the situation of the community in a more deep perception. This deserves praise because it contributed to the argument. I have realized the things you have said quite awhile ago, and there is no doubt in my mind that I could get to the 1st page without copying levels given enough time. However, I am proposing this because it is a good idea that can help the xommunity as a whole. Not everyone has the power that is required to do the things you explain. And why should they have that power? Is LBP a popularity contest? YES. By copying levels it wouldn't be. Sorry but I'm not vouching for this idea at all. Copying levels won't help and even if we did, we wouldn't keep it with the guys that have been controlling the cool pages since day 1. You keep overrating our community, we are a minority by far (if only we had numbers). Like I said, we should help underrated creators by recommending their levels to others (and put efforts on doing it), not by copying their work so others can copy it and at the end of the day people won't even know who even made that level and trolls would take credit for it. The ones that are controlling the cool pages might also take advantage of this by taking credit for those levels since they are more likely to get it them the cool page. By the way, our community don't really gives a **** about what's in the cool page, the spotlights are our cool page. | 2013-05-27 22:35:00 Author: Sport_dude Posts: 622 |
| Why does everyone want to become famous anyway? .-. Don't you create just for the fun of creating stuff? (Although I do admit, there IS satisfaction in getting a bunch of plays.) | 2013-05-27 22:41:00 Author: nysudyrgh  Posts: 5482 |
| The ones that are controlling the cool pages might also take advantage of this by taking credit for those levels since they are more likely to get it to the cool page. It's a good point. If players that are on the cool pages see "good levels" copyable, they will just copy it and increase their own stats, and you'll find these good levels on the same planet as a lot of shark bomb tsunami survivals. Which lead to another point: when you receive a spam in your letterbox, you don't flip it and expect to find an interesting article on the back. You throw the whole page without reading it, because you expect to see the same crap on both sides. | 2013-05-27 22:58:00 Author: Djibees  Posts: 189 |
| Another point: Publishing a copied level isn't guaranteed to give you plays. In fact, you'll probably get no plays. Look at this: http://lbp.me/search?q=Best+Mortal+Kombat%E2%84%A2+Level+Ever%21 Most of them have under 5 plays. You'll be surprised at how many Latin wannabees there are. | 2013-05-27 23:09:00 Author: Kalawishis Posts: 928 |
| The ones that are controlling the cool pages might also take advantage of this by taking credit for those levels since they are more likely to get it them the cool page. Since you have misinterpreted the process I am explaining I will restate it more clearly and ask you to read it with an unbiased view. 1. Creators will copy generic, commonly already copied levels (bomb survivals, etc.) before their next big real release. 2. Creators' earths will be put to the top of the cool pages and so their good levels that they are planning to publish will also make it to the cool page. 3. By doing this we can reduce the number of copied levels on the cool pages to (ideally) 50%. There are ZERO logistical negatives to the plan I am suggesting. The only question is wheather people have both situational awareness and the motivation to make the cool pages better. I realize we are a minority and have little concern for the cool pages. But why NOT improve it? @iiavalanchei: It would be a good idea if you finally would stop doubleposting. You can use the edit function and you can multiquote (as Lady_Luck___777 told you with her edit from 1 :55 PM). Causing the Mods that work to edit your postings again and again is not very friendly. You did 3 or 4 doublepostings in 10 minutes. Thank you, mate. Edit: at this moment she edited your post. She is fast Sorry for my ignorance I accept that it is existent. I will be more careful from now on. | 2013-05-27 23:48:00 Author: Unknown User |
| Just because other pepole copy and flood the cool pages , it doesnt make it ok to do so even if your endevor is to save the cool pages , we as a community dont agree with this idea , this is a site about original ideas and creations not genaric spam and pyrimid esc schemes , if all your freinds jumped off a cliff would you ? , you shouldnt be willing to compromise your morals just to get ahead , logistical negitives is pepole would veiw lbp central as a puesdo spammers union if this idea would suceed we would get negitive press , stop this now , beffore it hurts us all .Im trying to be civil but your idea would do more harm then good . | 2013-05-27 23:58:00 Author: Brutal Posts: 184 |
| Another point: Publishing copied level isn't guaranteed to give you plays. In fact, you'll probably get no plays. Look at this: http://lbp.me/search?q=Best+Mortal+Kombat%E2%84%A2+Level+Ever%21 Most of them have under 5 plays. You'll be surprised at how many Latin wannabees there are. Clearly there are failures. However, you neglected to realize why the system I am discribing CAN work. We as a community can rate these copied levels good. Let me explain WHY. We would be promoting the creators earth before their next release. Its almost like thinking "Oh, (suchandsuch) is going to publish a level he/she worked hard on! Their earth should be high on the cool levels this week." Just because other pepole copy and flood the cool pages , it doesnt make it ok to do so even if your endevor is to save the cool pages , we as a community dont agree with this idea , this is a site about original ideas and creations not genaric spam and pyrimid esc schemes , if all your freinds jumped off a cliff would you ? , you shouldnt be willing to compromise your morals just to get ahead , logistical negitives is pepole would veiw lbp central as a puesdo spammers union if this idea would suceed we would get negitive press , stop this now , beffore it hurts us all .Im trying to be civil but your idea would do more harm then good . I understand your argument and you have restated previous arguments with greater vigor. Bravo. Firstly I would like to say don't speak for everyone. The general consensus seems to be against the proposal, however many people (as I have recently discovered) misinterpreted the idea. As for morality, it is my belief that one's moral compass should be able to adapt in different situations to fit with what is right. You shouldn't think "copying bomb survivals is bad" and change that into "copying bomb survivals under any circumstance is bad". In this situation the pages would be improved and individual "fame" would be a thing of the past as creators would be getting on the pages in (mostly) equal amounts. Its kind of like socialism being added to LBP. Believe me, unlike in the real world, LBP needs it. | 2013-05-28 00:02:00 Author: Unknown User |
| You signed a eula to play online psn and another to play lbp2 , its a breach of contract to spam copy and republish also to bump levels on to the cool pages via spam , you are effectively cheating the leaderboards ie the cool pages and sony Will ip ban your ps3 and account is it worth it to you ? they can even sue you the eula is a legaly binding agreement that will hold up in court , the core values of lbp central are create and be unique and no to bump or double post uselessly and now you you want to do the same in lbp2 , bump and double post ? , I for one want this site and lbp2 to be full of positive and non copied levels and ideas , just because pepole spam the cool pages doesnt mean you should. | 2013-05-28 00:12:00 Author: Brutal Posts: 184 |
| You signed a eula to play online psn and another to play lbp2 , its a breach of contract to spam copy and republish also to bump levels on to the cool pages via spam , you are effectively cheating the leaderboards ie the cool pages and sony Will ip ban your ps3 and account is it worth it to you ? they can even sue you the eula is a legaly binding agreement that will hold up in court , the core values of lbp central are create and be unique and no to bump or double post uselessly and now you you want to do the same in lbp2 , bump and double post ? , I for one want this site and lbp2 to be full of positive and non copied levels and ideas , just because pepole spam the cool pages doesnt mean you should. So instead of continuing to argue the validity of your point you try to scare me with non-sense? Sure, I agreed to some fancy terms. So did latin-player. Sure, he was banned. Not because he violated the agreement, but because everyone rallied to get him banned because he was deliberately decreasing the quality of the cool pages. We would be increasing the validity of the cool pages for a just cause. No one would get banned unless the general consensus was to get that person banned. Do you think MM is scouring little big planet to find people that have violated the terms? Cuz i dont. | 2013-05-28 02:53:00 Author: Unknown User |
| I thought the whole point of the game was to have fun. Ok.. there are folks dominating the cool pages.. So? Is what they do any good? No... Do you want to make crappy levels or make awesome ones that folks like here on LBPC will appreciate? I pick the latter. We have a Level Showcase to share your creations. A system to help all of you get tons more feedback if you use it wisely. Amazing Tutorials and a fantastic Help forum for you to take advantage of. We also have a really cool Ideas and Projects forum that helps you with a WIP so that you can maximize your levels potential by the time it is published. ..and yet we really care about the cool pages? I don't.. To me it is like worrying about what is the top ten on the pop charts. Of course it is junk. Discerning tastes require better information and why there is the LBPC Creator Spotlights. Are you wanting to be king of the junk pile or have a great time and create something worthwhile? To be honest, if you want.. you can actually impress those 8 year old's if you make something amazing that is to their tastes. Heck.. even I did it once way back when...but copying levels? Seriously? That has got to be the silliest thing I have heard. I hate to bring up a sobering note, but also keep in mind any discussion here on LBPC that calls for doing things outside the EULA is not only frowned upon, but against site rules, can possibly be deleted, as well as other nasty stuff I shouldn't have to mention. | 2013-05-28 03:08:00 Author: jwwphotos  Posts: 11383 |
| I get what TC is trying to say, however the methods are a little bothersome to the majority including me. I get that people want to get recognized, heck we put a lot of time in our work and we want plays. With that said, why not shoot for community picks? I think its a nice thing they are doing hear in LBPC. Generally the more active you are, the more plays you will get( from my observation). Just try to get more active, play peoples levels and leave feedback. Just have fun with it and I am sure your creations will get recognized to some degree. | 2013-05-28 04:35:00 Author: Rpg Maker  Posts: 877 |
| I get what TC is trying to say, however the methods are a little bothersome to the majority including me. I get that people want to get recognized, heck we put a lot of time in our work and we want plays. With that said, why not shoot for community picks? I think its a nice thing they are doing hear in LBPC. Generally the more active you are, the more plays you will get( from my observation). Just try to get more active, play peoples levels and leave feedback. Just have fun with it and I am sure your creations will get recognized to some degree. What you are saying is we should either "shoot for the top" in hopes that we will one day be good enough to be recognized. But that goes against the point of the design that MM had in mind when they made the community. The cool pages was the "second best" or the middle class. Now that class has been completely eliminated and no one wants to admit its a problem. "Just ignore it." Thats not what this thread is about. | 2013-05-28 04:39:00 Author: Unknown User |
| What you are saying is we should either "shoot for the top" in hopes that we will one day be good enough to be recognized. But that goes against the point of the design that MM had in mind when they made the community. The cool pages was the "second best" or the middle class. Now that class has been completely eliminated and no one wants to admit its a problem. "Just ignore it." Thats not what this thread is about. Well you negated the "or" in that sentence, which is my point: I say if you are creating for recognition or want to be recognized more, then yes get more active. Thats the vibe I was getting from this topic you created and I apologize if I am jumping the gun in comprehending that motive. Otherwise just have fun with the game. Focus too much on getting attention (especially with cool pages) , it can make you sick and takes the fun out of the game. MM's only intent was to create a game where we can enjoy each others creations, not to get popular. With that said, saying MM considers the cool pages middle class is a false and so wrong to say. I'll just end with this: I dont want to divulge some cheat exploiting the cool pages. Its no better than the spam people are doing now. Techniques like this are destroying LPB2. Same time could be spent creating something cool.  | 2013-05-28 05:19:00 Author: Rpg Maker Posts: 877 |
| What you are saying is we should either "shoot for the top" in hopes that we will one day be good enough to be recognized. But that goes against the point of the design that MM had in mind when they made the community. The cool pages was the "second best" or the middle class. Now that class has been completely eliminated and no one wants to admit its a problem. "Just ignore it." Thats not what this thread is about. To be honest, as this thread has got more and more complicated and interesting, I am starting to agree with you slightly. Most people keep attacking you're idea directly, but at the end of the day it makes sense; the Cool Levels page was initially made so that mid-tier levels that weren't MM Picks could get spotlighted and possibly even MM Picked. This idea of yours in theory could restore the Cool Levels page, which at the end of the day is a main problem in the LBP2 Community. And to be honest if this works completely and we remove all the stupid bomb survival levels, we could regain full control, we can abandon this plan after a little while and the Cool Levels page will be what it was meant to be. This is what people should think about; this plan doesn't have to be permanent, the quicker more people would carry this out and push out the stupid levels, the less time we would have to do this copying-levels plan altogether; we can just stop it after a little while, and that's what entices me the most about this plan. The execution of your plan has some flaws, which is unfortunate because you're the only person to really tackle this issue head on, without immediately saying "Just tell the MM people to fix it!" -Making your levels copyable, now matter for how short of a time, make them prone to be copied by your Latin_Player_10 wannabes. A good example in LBP1 of this, you might've seen it, was the Undersea Adventure level which got 100,000s of plays, but the author accidently made it copyable, and now it's literally everywhere. -Latin_Player_10 wannabes could easily pick up on this idea, and boost their crappy repetative copied levels again and equally dominate the Cool Levels page, now that they have a viable reason to do so. Although, again, you have stated that a 50% balance could be achieved which I feel is accurate and to be honest a good thing to look forward too. -This idea needs to be spread somehow, and these forums hardly represent all of the LBP Community. Over time, if your plan comes into action, more people could pick up on this, but I think this is more of an idea to wait and see. The rest of you people need to start to look at this with an open mind, as together we could be able to find a half-way point between iiavalanchei's idea of copying to regain control over the Cool Page level, and return it to the good old days of LBP1. | 2013-05-28 13:19:00 Author: Unknown User |
| To be honest, as this thread has got more and more complicated and interesting, I am starting to agree with you slightly. Most people keep attacking you're idea directly, but at the end of the day it makes sense; the Cool Levels page was initially made so that mid-tier levels that weren't MM Picks could get spotlighted and possibly even MM Picked. This idea of yours in theory could restore the Cool Levels page, which at the end of the day is a main problem in the LBP2 Community. And to be honest if this works completely and we remove all the stupid bomb survival levels, we could regain full control, we can abandon this plan after a little while and the Cool Levels page will be what it was meant to be. This is what people should think about; this plan doesn't have to be permanent, the quicker more people would carry this out and push out the stupid levels, the less time we would have to do this copying-levels plan altogether; we can just stop it after a little while, and that's what entices me the most about this plan. The execution of your plan has some flaws, which is unfortunate because you're the only person to really tackle this issue head on, without immediately saying "Just tell the MM people to fix it!" -Making your levels copyable, now matter for how short of a time, make them prone to be copied by your Latin_Player_10 wannabes. A good example in LBP1 of this, you might've seen it, was the Undersea Adventure level which got 100,000s of plays, but the author accidently made it copyable, and now it's literally everywhere. -Latin_Player_10 wannabes could easily pick up on this idea, and boost their crappy repetative copied levels again and equally dominate the Cool Levels page, now that they have a viable reason to do so. Although, again, you have stated that a 50% balance could be achieved which I feel is accurate and to be honest a good thing to look forward too. -This idea needs to be spread somehow, and these forums hardly represent all of the LBP Community. Over time, if your plan comes into action, more people could pick up on this, but I think this is more of an idea to wait and see. The rest of you people need to start to look at this with an open mind, as together we could be able to find a half-way point between iiavalanchei's idea of copying to regain control over the Cool Page level, and return it to the good old days of LBP1. No.. it doesn't make any sense at all. The reason the cool pages are what they are is the demographics of who all plays this game. You folks keep thinking that it is adults driving the cool pages. It isn't... The bulk of who plays this game and drives the results on those pages are quite young and totally do not care about seriously made levels or enjoy them like we do. I have said it time and time again... it is about as useless as wandering into a Beiber concert with a megaphone and attempt to talk sense into them that there is better music out there. It is a total waste of time. You would get hurt!! lol It isn't that we do not agree the levels in there are crappy.. you are just not going to convince the larger demographics of who plays this game not to heart or give smiley faces to those levels that are copies or crappy. My girlfriend has a 6 year old grandson that loves this game. I have shown him some of my levels and he screams "Why are they so hard!?!?". It doesn't matter if he thinks they look cool or not... he can't figure out the puzzles, nor get the harder platforming bits. Now he loves my pinball level, but didn't heart it. lol However, take him to a spongebob level where the graphics are so terrible you almost have to cross your eyes or blur them to imagine what you are even seeing. There is some wonky spongebob.. and few minor jumps, a bunch of bubbles and a scoreboard. Poof.. he loves it. One level in particular that was totally awful and terrible he said to us, "That must have been made by a teenager.. it was soooo goood!!!" No... no it wasn't... it stunk. It was awful. ..but he loved it. Have any of you ever watched or had the displeasure of watching Nick Jr and all the garbage junk they have on there? It is freaking nuts!!! It isn't entertaining at all. I was in a med check one time and had to sit through about 40 minutes of agony wishing they would call my name, all while Nick Jr belched out at me. I tried to look away, but it keeps hammering at you. You hear weird distorted wonky sounds and it makes you look and then instantly punished for looking as it is so so BAD!!! Kids love this junk!! You can't talk them into anything else. They are simply not wired that way. They need to grow into any sort of taste and that will take YEARS. Attempting to compete or take over their love of crap is silly. Again.. the only way you could do it is make the best Spongebob level in all of LBPC... or some other popular theme. Do it amazing.. push the boundaries. Don't make it hard, but make it so even adults might like it and I swear, you could get a zillion plays. I did it once being upset at all terrible mario kart levels once upon a time. I made a very cool truck that you could control via the throttle and a bit of left joystick to keep the nose positioned for the jumps. It had great balance and tuned the track to suit it quite well.. I also added in the very first method of being able to flip it back on it's wheels. Added in some fun scenery, 3 races, the 3rd being a surprise race at the end. Well.. that sucker has some 460,000 plays and over 27,000 hearts and still keeps getting plays to this day. Kids love it. I didn't copy anything.. I crafted it all from scratch as an experiment on what might do well. YIKES!! ...I have much more fun and serious levels that I am more proud of, but if you want something that does well for kids, you have to think and create in their terms. Sorta like writing kids books.. you can't write anything horribly deep or complicated. It has to stay light and fun. So make something amazing FOR them or make something amazing for us that we can enjoy. ...your choice, but copying levels is one of the silliest ideas I have ever heard. | 2013-05-28 14:44:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383 |
| I have said it time and time again... it is about as useless as wandering into a Beiber concert with a megaphone and attempt to talk sense into them that there is better music out there. It is a total waste of time. You would get hurt!! lol This is the problem the thread creator is trying to deal with, you seem contempt to simply stand around and proclaim that the cool levels page is completely ruined and un-salvageable, but still aren't willing to even comprehend a way to repair it. Although this plan has some flaws, I feel it's the first active solution to the cool pages problem. At the end of the day we can do something. The bulk of who plays this game and drives the results on those pages are quite young and totally do not care Although I don't have any proper demographical evidence, I can quite surely say that most of the people the play this game are at least 15+ years old. Most of the good creators are adults/semi-adults and at least half or three-quarters of the community are teenagers, with the rest being little kids. Therefore it's hardly fair to use your 6 year old grandson character as a representation for the LBP Community, and the best proof is the MM Picks, where each level has 100,000+ plays, are complex puzzle levels where basic awerness and video game skill is required. Therefore the under-represented levels aren't under-played because of their complexity or that most of the community is kids who won't play them, it's because the cool levels is populated with copied levels, and how can we combat this? It's quite hard, but one method that needs some work is the method detailed by this thread. I'm not trying to protect iiavalanchei, in fact I didn't know who he was until I read this thread, but again, as he stated, try to keep and open mind and think about the problem at hand, and a viable way the WE can fix it. | 2013-05-28 20:44:00 Author: Unknown User |
| This is the problem the thread creator is trying to deal with, you seem contempt to simply stand around and proclaim that the cool levels page is completely ruined and un-salvageable, but still aren't willing to even comprehend a way to repair it. Although this plan has some flaws, I feel it's the first active solution to the cool pages problem. At the end of the day we can do something. Although I don't have any proper demographical evidence, I can quite surely say that most of the people the play this game are at least 15+ years old. Most of the good creators are adults/semi-adults and at least half or three-quarters of the community are teenagers, with the rest being little kids. Therefore it's hardly fair to use your 6 year old grandson character as a representation for the LBP Community, and the best proof is the MM Picks, where each level has 100,000+ plays, are complex puzzle levels where basic awerness and video game skill is required. Therefore the under-represented levels aren't under-played because of their complexity or that most of the community is kids who won't play them, it's because the cool levels is populated with copied levels, and how can we combat this? It's quite hard, but one method that needs some work is the method detailed by this thread. I'm not trying to protect iiavalanchei, in fact I didn't know who he was until I read this thread, but again, as he stated, try to keep and open mind and think about the problem at hand, and a viable way the WE can fix it. If the demographics were that most of the people that play this game were as you say, there would not be most of the trash that is proclaimed as "good" via the likes, hearts and plays in the cool pages. This is a result driven fact based upon algorithms created by Mm based upon plays, likes and hearts and the end results are right there. The results you obviously hate so much. You already realize the trash, but can't fathom how it got there. So you want to fix it by adding even MORE trash. Good thing you aren't thinking of cleaning up the trash in rivers and lakes like that. lol As far as Mm picks... if you actually take a look rather than just making up your evidence, not all of them have over 100,000 plays. Maybe over 10,000.. Some folks are not even aware Mm picks exist. Especially those that cannot really read. I once had a boo on my Pinball level and not that I really cared, but found it a bit funny as I couldn't imagine anyone really boo'ing it at the time. Yeah, maybe a bit silly of me. However in doing a bit of research, I found that player as well as a recent photo of them. I would say they might not even know what a boo was or what buttons they were hitting as the diaper they were wearing and the pacifier in their mouth gave it away. You can do whatever you want, argue whatever you want, but I am here to tell you that most folks here on LBPC do not care one bit about the cool levels. That is mostly why they are here. We have had this discussion hundreds of times. If you don't wish to use our tools to promote and share your levels with other like minded creators, then don't. I am saying that using those tools do work. Landing an LBPC spotlight is a great way to know you are exceeding the mark of a really good creator and to me, it means even more than an Mm pick. ..and yes, I have an Mm pick as well, but cherish my LBPC Spotlights even more. Again, you can do whatever you want (though maybe not here on LBPC per our site rules), but copying levels is the worst, most silly waste of time I have ever heard. You are not giving folks anything good to play, you are just creating more crap. Think if that was the way to get on the music charts by making everyone sick of charts. You are just going to upset the ones that can read. ...or maybe get more folks to want to copy bad levels. Personally, the only levels I play anymore are creators I have hearted, friends of mine here on LBPC that I respect their creativity, some that perk my interest in the Level Showcase, those that make the LBPC Spotlight, and occasionally an Mm pick that perks my interest. I haven't looked at the cool levels in a very very long time. Anyway.. best of luck. I have given my suggestions and most that have followed my advice and have worked hard, have done quite well at this game. ...and had a ton of fun rather than complain about folks in some auto created electronic list that doesn't really mean anything. | 2013-05-28 21:25:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383 |
| To be honest, as this thread has got more and more complicated and interesting, I am starting to agree with you slightly. Most people keep attacking you're idea directly, but at the end of the day it makes sense; the Cool Levels page was initially made so that mid-tier levels that weren't MM Picks could get spotlighted and possibly even MM Picked. This idea of yours in theory could restore the Cool Levels page, which at the end of the day is a main problem in the LBP2 Community. And to be honest if this works completely and we remove all the stupid bomb survival levels, we could regain full control, we can abandon this plan after a little while and the Cool Levels page will be what it was meant to be. This is what people should think about; this plan doesn't have to be permanent, the quicker more people would carry this out and push out the stupid levels, the less time we would have to do this copying-levels plan altogether; we can just stop it after a little while, and that's what entices me the most about this plan. The execution of your plan has some flaws, which is unfortunate because you're the only person to really tackle this issue head on, without immediately saying "Just tell the MM people to fix it!" -Making your levels copyable, now matter for how short of a time, make them prone to be copied by your Latin_Player_10 wannabes. A good example in LBP1 of this, you might've seen it, was the Undersea Adventure level which got 100,000s of plays, but the author accidently made it copyable, and now it's literally everywhere. -Latin_Player_10 wannabes could easily pick up on this idea, and boost their crappy repetative copied levels again and equally dominate the Cool Levels page, now that they have a viable reason to do so. Although, again, you have stated that a 50% balance could be achieved which I feel is accurate and to be honest a good thing to look forward too. -This idea needs to be spread somehow, and these forums hardly represent all of the LBP Community. Over time, if your plan comes into action, more people could pick up on this, but I think this is more of an idea to wait and see. The rest of you people need to start to look at this with an open mind, as together we could be able to find a half-way point between iiavalanchei's idea of copying to regain control over the Cool Page level, and return it to the good old days of LBP1. Well I am for helping the cool pages, but I just dont see this method working out. You say you can just stop this technique any time you want, but whats to stop other people from continuing to do this? This isnt a private thread, so its not like this "idea" is some giant secret now. Once people start seeing the cool pages being altered, whats stopping them from adopting the same technique? Also jwwphotos makes a very valid point regarding children. I wont detour you from wanting to "Save" LBP, but the point is the game doesnt need saving. Good luck though, it sounds like you are going to need this. I am headed back to my pod | 2013-05-28 23:14:00 Author: Rpg Maker Posts: 877 |
| This is the problem the thread creator is trying to deal with, you seem contempt to simply stand around and proclaim that the cool levels page is completely ruined and un-salvageable, but still aren't willing to even comprehend a way to repair it. Although this plan has some flaws, I feel it's the first active solution to the cool pages problem. At the end of the day we can do something. In my earliest post on this thread, I said we had to ask ourselves some vital questions, and asked the question "What is wrong with the Cool Pages?", and revealed that attention does not necessarily equal good. Now I shall ask my next question, which I think is quite relevant. You say the Cool Pages is in a bad state because the levels on it are mostly bad. Now let me ask you: What makes a level bad? One man's trash is another man's treasure. As jww pointed out in his post, what we consider "bad" could be what young kids consider "good", and vice versa. So, in essence, the Cool Pages are only bad to us. That raises another question: Who should get to decide? That is, should the levels on the Cool Pages be the ones that we like or the ones that they like? Well, this would depend on which group is larger-us or them. I can say quite simply which is larger-them. Although I don't have any proper demographical evidence, I can quite surely say that most of the people the play this game are at least 15+ years old. Most of the good creators are adults/semi-adults and at least half or three-quarters of the community are teenagers, with the rest being little kids. Therefore it's hardly fair to use your 6 year old grandson character as a representation for the LBP Community, and the best proof is the MM Picks, where each level has 100,000+ plays, are complex puzzle levels where basic awareness and video game skill is required. Therefore the under-represented levels aren't under-played because of their complexity or that most of the community is kids who won't play them, it's because the cool levels is populated with copied levels, and how can we combat this? It's quite hard, but one method that needs some work is the method detailed by this thread. First of all, "Good Creators" are a very small portion of the LBP Community. Secondly, how can you say that half to three quarters of this game are teenagers or up without demographic evidence? I have my evidence right on lbp.me-look at the newest levels section and you'll see that most of the levels are trash even worse than what's on the Cool Pages-clearly not made by adults. Secondly, being that the older community likes "good" levels and the younger community likes "bad" levels, why isn't the Cool Pages good already? If we're the larger demographic, we should be able to overpower the kids in terms of numbers. Are we all really lethargic or something? Next, here's why your plan doesn't work. If we as a mature community have enough impact to get levels on the Cool Pages, overpowering the kids, then why bother with the copied middlemen? Why can't we just play their levels themselves and get them onto the Cool Pages? If we are that great of a force we should be able to do that. If not, will we have to combine forces with the kids to get the right copied levels on top of the wrong copied levels? How will we get kids to play the same copied levels we do? Why would a kid even search for a copied level made by a certain creator if they already have the same level ready on the Cool Pages? If we outnumber the kids (which we don't), your plan doesn't make sense, and if we don't outnumber the kids, you plan won't work. But here's the big one. Why do we even have to fix the Cool Pages? If the kids are the majority then filling the Cool Pages with "quality" levels will only serve to make them upset, as jww said. If we are the majority, then it won't even matter what's on the Cool Pages since most of us find good levels just fine without the Cool Pages. Of course, we're not the majority. The kids are. Quite frankly, I think trying to force good levels on them is unnecessary. It's like making somebody listen to classical music when they like Justin Beiber. As Ungreth said, Givest not monkeys caviar when bananas they dost desire. | 2013-05-28 23:16:00 Author: Kalawishis Posts: 928 |
| But here's the big one. Why do we even have to fix the Cool Pages? If the kids are the majority then filling the Cool Pages with "quality" levels will only serve to make them upset, as jww said. If we are the majority, then it won't even matter what's on the Cool Pages since most of us find good levels just fine without the Cool Pages. Of course, we're not the majority. The kids are. Quite frankly, I think trying to force good levels on them is unnecessary. It's like making somebody listen to classical music when they like Justin Beiber. As Ungreth said, Exactly. Bravo!!CuzFeeshe, one of my good friends as well as an amazing creator said many times that he never wanted to end up on the cool pages, even before when it was possible to get a good one up there. The kids would simply destroy the ratings back when there were stars and not just a smiley face. His levels are incredible and most quite hard to the point that you could destroy a six axis on his next newest level coming out. I loved them all... but OMG, they were not for prime time play in the kids corner. He later admitted that he would have his son try out his creations and when he started crying, he knew it was tough. ...and they were. Obscenely tough, but still very fair. Most of them taking advantage of the coolest parts of the physics of LBP. He was one to always push the limits. I learned so much from him and many of the other amazing creators that once roamed the halls here. It was when I finally started impressing them, I knew I had something going for me. So again... if you all want to push the limits and get some great feedback, post your levels in the Level Showcase. Use the F4F function and be proactive. Go and play zillions of other F4F levels there and leave constructive detailed feedback. Especially if you find some F4F levels by some really good creators. After you do that till your thumbs fall off, then and only then suggest which of your levels to honor their F4F commitment. There are a bunch of really awesome and kind creators here that enjoy helping others. Getting their feedback and learning how to see your levels from their perspective is invaluable. Once you start creating levels that blow folks away... folks will remember your name, give you a heart just to keep track of what you next come up with. It is hard work and commitment to exceeding your skill set that gives results. Not copying levels, nor worrying about "fixing" the cool pages to suit yourself. We have all the tools here to help you succeed if you are game enough. | 2013-05-28 23:54:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383 |
| If the demographics were that most of the people that play this game were as you say, there would not be most of the trash that is proclaimed as "good" via the likes, hearts and plays in the cool pages. This is not true. Plays/time factors in equally as the ratio for plays/yays or hearts as the two are multiplied together. As a result, the copiers (who are NOT young but care not for making good levels and only want to be popular and are clever enough to succeed) who make it got there by rallying together efficiently by finding younger players to yay their levels. It is easier to identify younger players and in addition younger players don't think twice about yaying a level, so even though the demographic may be equal (as you have no real proof it isn't other than speculation) they make it because their standards are, as you stated, markedly lower. I'm saying we need to lower out standards. You can do whatever you want, argue whatever you want, but I am here to tell you that most folks here on LBPC do not care one bit about the cool levels. That is mostly why they are here. We have had this discussion hundreds of times. If you don't wish to use our tools to promote and share your levels with other like minded creators, then don't. I am saying that using those tools do work. Landing an LBPC spotlight is a great way to know you are exceeding the mark of a really good creator and to me, it means even more than an Mm pick. ..and yes, I have an Mm pick as well, but cherish my LBPC Spotlights even more. I agree this forum doesn't care about the community anymore. They have been exiled to this forum and have created an ideal world were we can keep our ideals completely intact whilst everyone who hasn't heard of the forums are left with no place to go. That is the fundamental problem with the cool pages, but some are sitting too pretty to realize it. Personally, the only levels I play anymore are creators I have hearted, friends of mine here on LBPC that I respect their creativity, some that perk my interest in the Level Showcase, those that make the LBPC Spotlight, and occasionally an Mm pick that perks my interest. I haven't looked at the cool levels in a very very long time. And you see no problem with that. Barely any nre levels are introduced this way compared to in the past. Baaaaaaahhhhh. Bahhh. baaaaaaaah. Sorry I couldn't hear you through the sound of all the lambs saying the same exact things in different words. | 2013-05-29 00:18:00 Author: Unknown User |
| This is not true. Plays/time factors in equally as the ratio for plays/yays or hearts as the two are multiplied together. As a result, the copiers (who are NOT young but care not for making good levels and only want to be popular and are clever enough to succeed) who make it got there by rallying together efficiently by finding younger players to yay their levels. It is easier to identify younger players and in addition younger players don't think twice about yaying a level, so even though the demographic may be equal (as you have no real proof it isn't other than speculation) they make it because their standards are, as you stated, markedly lower. I'm saying we need to lower out standards. I agree this forum doesn't care about the community anymore. They have been exiled to this forum and have created an ideal world were we can keep our ideals completely intact whilst everyone who hasn't heard of the forums are left with no place to go. That is the fundamental problem with the cool pages, but some are sitting too pretty to realize it. And you see no problem with that. Barely any nre levels are introduced this way compared to in the past. Sorry I couldn't hear you through the sound of all the lambs saying the same exact things in different words. Don't put words in my mouth that I never said. Of course we care about the community. ..but we do it by helping who we can and those are the ones that put out an effort to try and raise their personal bar. We are not exiled here. Most of us came here because we saw an LBPC sticker in a really awesome level, or did an internet search wanting help on a particular creation. In fact, many of us belong to multiple communities to share and help creators. We don't have any walls or doors.. there is no initiation or money to be paid. ..and we aren't trying to trick anyone like you suggest. However I do see what you are trying to get at. If there was a plausible vehicle in game to service good creators. Well.. I once suggested that genre tags be created as well as account for the ages of the intended audience of levels somewhat like the movie industry has. That way I felt there could be multiple cool pages to your liking by simply clicking preferences. One for youngsters, another for adults and older teens wanting more challenging levels etc. Mm never used that extra layer and thus we have what we have. ..but lowering everyone's standards and willingly producing crap doesn't do your intended audience any good at all. You simply want to take advantage of the yay'sayers that love what we would consider silly crappy levels. So your plan is to purposely publish a copied so your next one in the pipe does well in the land of the lost. I don't think it will. It might be out there, but the majority will shoot it down in flames because they want more drive thru easy levels that they don't have to think about. Personally I think you are setting yourself up for failure as well as creating a bad reputation for yourself. Like Kalawishis said, you can't force culture on someone. Your best bet is to show your creations to those that really care about really great creations. The networking can happen even beyond a fan site. I find a level I like, I heart it.. someone that has hearted me for enjoying my creation sees that and plays it and possibly hearts it and so on. That is the power of networking on both fan sites as well as using LBP.me. ..and again.. even our Spotlights are part of the in game news feed. The info is already there if you choose to use it!! ..but again, if you want to try your placebo method I think you are going to be in for a shock. If you choose to read it, I did offer quite a bit of advice in an earlier post that will work to achieve your personal goal of getting your creations recognized by those that can appreciate them. If you want to try your trick then fine, but we won't support that concept here on LBPC. | 2013-05-29 00:58:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383 |
| I don't suggest there is any trickery going on. Maybe my analogy was too extreme for you. I was simply stating the fact that this is the last way for creators to meet up because they are busy believing that there is no solution to be had, and when a solution that has some degree of merit is presented, they would rather stay in the tiny community that has been made. People are content with making their own cool pages instead of fixing the one that's already there. The created community is the "exile" of my metaphor. | 2013-05-29 02:51:00 Author: Unknown User |
| I was not trying to scare you they do enforce the rules although , your idea could work in theroy the cool pages would just go back to copy rubbish in a few months , i suggest you try out the level showcase tool on lbp central if you want plays feed back and a chance at glory , it works ,I am say that the tou is considered legal , but they do hardly enforce it except in rare cases , I ignore cool pages entirely and only play lbp central levels and levels freinds on psn recomend , i find good levels in the spotlight treads and recomendations check it out . | 2013-05-29 03:00:00 Author: Brutal Posts: 184 |
| I'm saying we need to lower out standards. If we lower our standards then what makes us any better than the kids? It's going to be hard to convince people to rate against their principles. I agree this forum doesn't care about the community anymore. They have been exiled to this forum and have created an ideal world were we can keep our ideals completely intact whilst everyone who hasn't heard of the forums are left with no place to go. That is the fundamental problem with the cool pages, but some are sitting too pretty to realize it. Well then wouldn't it be easier to tell people about the forums than to institute your plan? While your plan requires organization we need no organization to tell people about the forums-we can just let word spread. And who says we don't care about the community? The reason why we don't want to take action is because, as I've proved, the community is quite fine. The kids get the levels they want and the forums get the levels they want. I know that people think that there is a sort of "unrecognized creator" who "creates amazing levels" but is "constantly overshadowed by spammers", but in reality, those people can just join the forums and get their work noticed by people here, which, as I proved in my first post in this thread, is quite a bit better than getting it onto the Cool Pages. I was simply stating the fact that this is the last way for creators to meet up because they are busy believing that there is no solution to be had, and when a solution that has some degree of merit is presented, they would rather stay in the tiny community that has been made. People are content with making their own cool pages instead of fixing the one that's already there. The created community is the "exile" of my metaphor. "Merit". If you had actually read my post instead of typing "Baaaah, Baaaah," then you would know that I proved you plan couldn't work or wouldn't be constructive under any circumstances, and also proved that we don't need to fix the Cool Pages. And I know that "We don't need to fix the Cool Pages" has been said time and time again but the reason why is because it's true and it shuts down all needs for your plan. I'm sorry for the bluntness, but your plan is a solution looking for a problem-indeed, it's not even a solution since I already proved it's not going to work. This is the result of seeing a need that doesn't exist, making a plan that wouldn't work even if the need did exist, and expecting people to believe it despite its obvious flaws. And here's a last bit of logic to completely seal the deal-if you have so much trouble convincing us to go with your plan, what makes you think that the entire higher community will go along with it too? You want people to lower their standards, play copied levels, organize into a whole, all playing levels at the same time because that's the only way we can carry brute weight; all difficult things to do, for a purpose that doesn't exist, and even with so much overwhelming resistance you still believe your plan has chances of success. You can't accept your plan is flawed in all places so you blame it on us living in a bubble and downright refuse to listen to my post and come up with all these strange arguments and reasons to try to convince us because if you engaged us in clear argument this would be over in one page since you plan has no ground. There. | 2013-05-29 03:29:00 Author: Kalawishis Posts: 928 |
| I don't suggest there is any trickery going on. Maybe my analogy was too extreme for you. I was simply stating the fact that this is the last way for creators to meet up because they are busy believing that there is no solution to be had, and when a solution that has some degree of merit is presented, they would rather stay in the tiny community that has been made. People are content with making their own cool pages instead of fixing the one that's already there. The created community is the "exile" of my metaphor. lol.. well, to me it wasn't really an analogy, but if you say so fine. We are just here to help and are more than happy to show you how to use the tools here. Up to you really. If you believe your method is the last way possible, then I feel you are kidding yourself. There is the way I have explained and it has worked many times for many many creators. Several of which work now at Digital Sumo and at Tarsier besides being well known accomplished creators in LBP. ...that is if you have the talent, skill, drive to work hard and have the love for the game. | 2013-05-29 03:30:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383 |
| A relatively small group of people could wrestle control of the cool pages if they wanted. I think you already know that to corral the community as a whole behind you is a tall order. I like your independence but I have to ask you as you have to ask yourself: once you've engineered yourself into this dominating position what is your next move? What informs you as a leader? | 2013-05-29 03:37:00 Author: Ayneh  Posts: 2454 |
| ...I think this thread is drawing to a close. | 2013-05-29 04:33:00 Author: Kalawishis Posts: 928 |
| If you had actually read my post instead of typing "Baaaah, Baaaah," then you would know that I proved you plan couldn't work or wouldn't be constructive under any circumstances, and also proved that we don't need to fix the Cool Pages. And I know that "We don't need to fix the Cool Pages" has been said time and time again but the reason why is because it's true and it shuts down all needs for your plan. I'm sorry for the bluntness, but your plan is a solution looking for a problem-indeed, it's not even a solution since I already proved it's not going to work. This is the result of seeing a need that doesn't exist, making a plan that wouldn't work even if the need did exist, and expecting people to believe it despite its obvious flaws. And here's a last bit of logic to completely seal the deal-if you have so much trouble convincing us to go with your plan, what makes you think that the entire higher community will go along with it too? You want people to lower their standards, play copied levels, organize into a whole, all playing levels at the same time because that's the only way we can carry brute weight; all difficult things to do, for a purpose that doesn't exist, and even with so much overwhelming resistance you still believe your plan has chances of success. You can't accept your plan is flawed in all places so you blame it on us living in a bubble and downright refuse to listen to my post and come up with all these strange arguments and reasons to try to convince us because if you engaged us in clear argument this would be over in one page since you plan has no ground. Why do you keep claiming that the cool levels page isn't a problem, when it really is. Although at its core it represents the levels with the most plays, which is accurate to some extent, what it fails to do is refresh itself with new, different levels on a weekly/monthly basis (whenever it's refreshed) as it's clogged up with the same bomb survival and mortal kombat levels. Although this "satisfies the kids" it fails to do with it was implemented for, represent new levels regularly that have got lots of views, in an attempt to showcase the creators good work, get them some hearts and plays, inspire others, and even get the level an MM Pick. However the fact that it's filled with levels that are copied and republished by different people regularly means that new, deserving levels can never see the light of day. That sounds like a problem to me. The plan at the end of the day has flaws, I don't deny that, and the fact is it will never be carried out as people will not be willing to carry it out, but the fact you say there is no problem to address is quite worrying, and shows your ignorance. | 2013-05-29 12:18:00 Author: Unknown User |
| What it fails to do is refresh itself with new, different levels on a weekly/monthly basis (whenever it's refreshed) as it's clogged up with the same bomb survival and mortal kombat levels. Although this "satisfies the kids" it fails to do with it was implemented for, represent new levels regularly that have got lots of views, in an attempt to showcase the creators good work, get them some hearts and plays, inspire others, and even get the level an MM Pick. Hi, The purpose of the Cool Levels page is to display the levels considered as cool by the community. If most of the gamers want to play the same kind of level every week, how can it be helped? There's no hacker pirating the Page against the gamers' will. In this case, all you can do is rely upon the community's wisdom (or at least wish such a wisdom existed). People have been purschasing Harry Potter novels for years, and no one's claimed it prevents other good writers to "showcase their work" yet. If citizens in a democracy are willing to vote for a far-right party, how can it be helped? Imposing a few so-called quality levels to the whole community would amount to allowing only proficient readers to buy novels, or only proficient citizens to vote. And that doesn't make sense in the world I know. If you're not okay with the Cool Levels page (in other words, the mainstream choices), then you still can play the levels that have been selected by a group of proficient gamers: in other words, play either the MM Picks or the Spotlighted levels. The Spotlight crew does an incredible work every day, playing each and every single level posted on the forum in order to spare you the bother of looking through the Cool Levels page. Put it to good use. | 2013-05-29 13:29:00 Author: Oddmania  Posts: 1305 |
| The plan at the end of the day has flaws, I don't deny that, and the fact is it will never be carried out as people will not be willing to carry it out, but the fact you say there is no problem to address is quite worrying, and shows your ignorance. Now now... no reason to go there. If you persist, I will have to bring out my mod weapons of destruction and wicked editing tools. The fact is... it bugs you and the OP. The state of the cool levels really doesn't bother us, much like I don't look at pop charts to find new music or look at movie ratings from "experts" to find movies. Us not worrying about it bugs you more.. it is simply your perspective not ours. We already have a really good way of getting awesome levels some exposure, showcasing them, possibly earning them a Spotlight that shockingly enough can lead to an Mm pick. Personally.. I could fix the cool levels, but I would need the source code and a bit of time to work out the issues. Neither of which I will get freely.. and I doubt Sony will ever bother with it as the kids, the majority that play this game, seem happy enough with it. | 2013-05-29 13:36:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383 |
| Guys, stop arguing with a wall. Basically, what he wants to do is filling up the kid's library with Kant and Goethe's works. That's noble. But that can't work, there will be too much rejection from the kids and no responsible adult would annoy his kids with Nietzsche and adult stuff. Sure, a minority would be receptive, but that would be like one in a hundred. All the others kids would copy your hardcore level and change it into a spongebob squarepants level that fits him better. | 2013-05-29 14:23:00 Author: Djibees Posts: 189 |
| Guys, stop arguing with a wall. Basically, what he wants to do is filling up the kid's library with Kant and Goethe's works. That's noble. But that can't work, there will be too much rejection from the kids and no responsible adult would annoy his kids with Nietzsche and adult stuff. Sure, a minority would be receptive, but that would be like one in a hundred. All the others kids would copy your hardcore level and change it into a spongebob squarepants level that fits him better. You have a point... No sense arguing... they seem past any discussion. | 2013-05-29 14:32:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383 |
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