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Any Pioneers Left?

Archive: 52 posts

After seeing Luos' last Hurrah, it got me thinking. How many great creators are left? We have plenty of good creators, mind you. However, back in the old LBP1 days, there were people pushing limits, constantly doing things that were new, that people originally thought impossible. With a bit of luck, those creators became the "legends", and "pioneers", if you will, of LBP. By legends, I mean legends. They didn't just make "polished" or "appealing" levels, they made levels that were "amazing", "jaw-dropping", and "innovative". If I must name a few, I will. Comphermc, Ladylyn1, rtm223, etc. They weren't just good, they were GREAT-practically gods in what they could do, and if they got together...God help you. When LBP2 came along, these people had a field day. We had levels that knocked off our socks every week, and usually, it was by the pioneer creators. Some came to join them, like Felkroth or Rialrees, and became legends themselves. It was pretty great.

But then people started to leave. A few pioneers, like Foofles, left in 2011. In 2012 they were leaving in droves. Even some creators that became legenday in LBP2 were leaving. By 2013, the few that were left were already announcing their plans to leave. I don't know one creator pioneer in LBP1 except Ladylyn1 still active in LBP2-there's probably a few, but I doubt they're staying for long. Of course, I understood why they were leaving-they got sick of it, like any normal person. After playing a game for so long you eventually suck the fun out of it and it just becomes dull (this is probably even faster if you're really active), so naturally you stop playing. And naturally, one would expect other pioneers to take the places of the ones who left.

Except that's not happening anymore.

Look at the good, active creators nowadays, and you'll see that few of them are really trying to push the limits beyond anything but visuals. It seems that most of the good stuff nowadays are just visual platformers, which, while nice, are a bit safe. Few levels nowadays are particularly innovative, at least in my eyes. I think the last level that I've ever seen that truly made me think "pioneer level" was Xenomooch. Again, I mean no disrespect to the creators now, but the levels today just don't seems as crazy or innovative or memorable as the ones made by the pioneer creators. They just don't seem to really push the limit beyond what their peers are doing, or what people before were doing. Yeah, the new platformer uses a new glitch in a creative way, or had a few new contraptions, or this new shooter has 1.5 times as many bullets, or this minigame is 1.5 times less done than the others, but it really doesn't stand up to the great new advancements of before. Radically new advancements seem fewer and fewer. I have a few thoughts why:

1. We've reached the peak of LBP2 and can't really go any further. This sort of makes sense. If you compare the levels of today with those of two years ago these are leagues better. It could be said that we've pushed all we can, and we've run out of ideas. While I agree that we've reached the technical limit of LBP2-that is-visuals and logic, we still haven't run out of innovative ideas or ways to push the game to create a truly different experience. Sealed was a pioneer because it was never done before, even though we still mastered all the technologies of LBP2 by then. Same goes for Xenomooch (and yes, we had touch, but that didn't make it shine).
2. We're being pressured to make more of the same. Bit of a far-fetched one here, but some of you could consider this. Pretty much, since the Mm Picks and the Community Spotlights are mostly platformers, people are pressured to make platformers if they want to get noticed-thus reducing innovation in general. I personally don't believe this one, but I've seen the opinions on this site and I believe quite some people do.
3. I'm feeling nostalgic.

Those are my guesses. Some might even say that there is no issue at all, that we are still innovating, and there are still pioneers, and even if that isn't so, LBP3 will start it all up again. I don't know really. It just seems that there are no creators nowadays that can really compare to the pioneers of old. To me, the levels of 2013 just seems like all hard work and no inspiration

(Yer sner, I like reading walls of text as much as you do so I will not proofread this for errors. If you find any, you can tell me, or just laugh about it behind my back if you feel like it.)		2013-05-22 05:00:00

Author:
Kalawishis
Posts: 928

I miss the cool pages when lbp1 was first starting out those were the days ahhhh memories I miss ramp 2013-05-22 07:06:00

Author:
WESFUN
Posts: 1336

Look at the good, active creators nowadays, and you'll see that few of them are really trying to push the limits beyond anything but visuals. It seems that most of the good stuff nowadays are just visual platformers, which, while nice, are a bit safe. Few levels nowadays are particularly innovative, at least in my eyes. I think the last level that I've ever seen that truly made me think "pioneer level" was Xenomooch. Again, I mean no disrespect to the creators now, but the levels today just don't seems as crazy or innovative or memorable as the ones made by the pioneer creators. They just don't seem to really push the limit beyond what their peers are doing, or what people before were doing. Yeah, the new platformer uses a new glitch in a creative way, or had a few new contraptions, or this new shooter has 1.5 times as many bullets, or this minigame is 1.5 times less done than the others, but it really doesn't stand up to the great new advancements of before. Radically new advancements seem fewer and fewer. I have a few thoughts why:


Because these are the levels that get picked. I've played quite a few MM picks recently and have been bored to death by bland gameplay. There are still a few innovative creators out there looking to push the boundaries. They tend to get noticed by the spotlight crew, but not many of them get MM picked. Although it does depend on what you refer to as innovative? Personally, I love a good puzzle/platformer, or platformers with unique gameplay/puzzle elements.

I tried to push the boat with my latest level. Was it unique? Well... it was a rip off of a flash game but unique to LBP. Is it perfect? No, the controls can make the gameplay frustrating at times, and there does seem to still be the odd random glitch that I am unable to fix. Does it have cool ideas? Yes, I believe it does. It has been recognised by 2 forums which is great, but still only has less than 900 plays. I'm proud that I at least tried to be innovative to an extent, and not just make a bland, boring platformer. If I can do it, I'm sure others can!		2013-05-22 10:26:00

Author:
Ali_Star
Posts: 4085

I like to think of myself as a bit of a pioneer, but that won't do you any good because I never finish anything.

But I see another big factor in people leaving. For some LittleBigPlanet became a stepping stone into the games industry. Many talented creators have been hired to work on the various LBP games professionally. Others are creating (mobile) games on their own. And it's only logical. LBP2 as a game development platform provides you with a 2.5D game engine with loads of textures, sounds and music, but limited 3D modeling and logic programming. As you try to push the boundaries of the game further and further, you'll eventually get to a point where the provided resources don't weigh up to the trouble of bending the create tools to your will. It always amazed me how popular those "8 bit" hologram sprite levels remained (after showing it could be done), considering they use almost none of the game's resources. Some even do all the physics from scratch. I guess people don't know how easy it is to make these from scratch on a PC?		2013-05-22 12:02:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

I try , i make great levels 3 years less then 1k plays globaly , never on cool pages for more then 2 min ...... , i will always try to bend create to my will , check some of my stuff out some of its not verry polished but still decent but some is amazing and yet undiscovered , sackwheels rpg 20 plays lol took 2 months to build ....I have 2 levels nearing the final stages im going drop bolth the same day, sorry my grammar isnt the best i try .2013-05-22 12:44:00

Author:
Brutal
Posts: 184

I tried to push the boat with my latest level. Was it unique? Well... it was a rip off of a flash game but unique to LBP. Is it perfect? No, the controls can make the gameplay frustrating at times, and there does seem to still be the odd random glitch that I am unable to fix. Does it have cool ideas? Yes, I believe it does. It has been recognised by 2 forums which is great, but still only has less than 900 plays. I'm proud that I at least tried to be innovative to an extent, and not just make a bland, boring platformer. If I can do it, I'm sure others can!


Yeah, I accidentally forgot about Contrast when thinking about a pioneering level now. It slipped my mind.		2013-05-22 13:38:00

Author:
Kalawishis
Posts: 928

I don't know that everyone left as much as many just don't take the time or have the time to get back into it. For myself, I know exactly what I would like to do, but know that it will take some 300 - 400+ hours of total time before the level would be complete to what I consider my standards and what I consider fun.

Nights weekends and spare moments are a bit hard to come by at times, but it isn't for the lack of love of LBP. It is more a OMG, this will be a huge huge task. ..and it isn't like I am slow at all. Plus that much command of the main tv might get me shot. lol

Which is one reason I do like the Vita. You can noodle around on it while doing other things and probably will make another level there before once again picking up the six axis to do a proper LBP level that I hope everyone will have fun at.

...and that brings up another wrinkle in this topic. Folks talk about pushing the envelope and doing jaw dropping things. To be honest, I think sometimes they forget about what makes really great levels. FUN!! Sometimes there is so much fiddly junk and concern about drop dead gorgeous graphics that they forget about "FUN". Sometimes really simple things and concepts are horrible fun and addictive. Not saying that there aren't extremely complicated things that are not just as fun, but I think sometimes when creators think about pushing the envelope they forget that simple things can also be totally fun and new.

So don't be afraid to experiment with silly stuff. You just never know.

...but to be more in line with the topic. I think there are Pioneers left. Like some have said, some work for Digital Sumo and Tarsier. Others are just busy with life and also playing other games at the moment. I think there are also more up and coming ones that no one has ever heard of. ...so don't count them out yet. 		2013-05-22 13:58:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

Yeah, I accidentally forgot about Contrast when thinking about a pioneering level now. It slipped my mind.

Haha. I never thought of myself as a pioneer.

I think the one thing we all have to remember though is the game is over 2 years old. It's impressive that there's still so many people playing it, albeit a lot less than there used to be. It's natural for creators to just move on to other games.		2013-05-22 14:14:00

Author:
Ali_Star
Posts: 4085

I don't know that everyone left as much as many just don't take the time or have the time to get back into it. For myself, I know exactly what I would like to do, but know that it will take some 300 - 400+ hours of total time before the level would be complete to what I consider my standards and what I consider fun.

Nights weekends and spare moments are a bit hard to come by at times, but it isn't for the lack of love of LBP. It is more a OMG, this will be a huge huge task. ..and it isn't like I am slow at all. Plus that much command of the main tv might get me shot. lol

Which is one reason I do like the Vita. You can noodle around on it while doing other things and probably will make another level there before once again picking up the six axis to do a proper LBP level that I hope everyone will have fun at.

...and that brings up another wrinkle in this topic. Folks talk about pushing the envelope and doing jaw dropping things. To be honest, I think sometimes they forget about what makes really great levels. FUN!! Sometimes there is so much fiddly junk and concern about drop dead gorgeous graphics that they forget about "FUN". Sometimes really simple things and concepts are horrible fun and addictive. Not saying that there aren't extremely complicated things that are not just as fun, but I think sometimes when creators think about pushing the envelope they forget that simple things can also be totally fun and new.

So don't be afraid to experiment with silly stuff. You just never know.

...but to be more in line with the topic. I think there are Pioneers left. Like some have said, some work for Digital Sumo and Tarsier. Others are just busy with life and also playing other games at the moment. I think there are also more up and coming ones that no one has ever heard of. ...so don't count them out yet.

I agree with this, I miss the old LBP1 levels playing Ramp as well as other levels that, while visually uninteresting, were great fun. And I'm just going to say it, I liked the bomb survivals too. Yeah, okay, after a while it got very silly and overdone but I spent hours playing hoping to at one moment survival the onslaught and reach the bottom, they were very uninteresting and many unoriginal.

Sure you have LittleBigCalculator and the levels that really amaze you of LBP's capabilities, and they're great don't get me wrong but sometimes it more fun to play a level that isn't groundbreaking. The problem nowadays is that a lot of the stuff being made is missing fun due to a visual overhaul, and attempt to be new and inspired. There are still great levels out there obviously, and I'm not saying that people should stop trying, but levels need a better balance I would say.

But if it is the groundbreaking stuff you're looking for, it's still there. You still see fine examples of creative bonanzas on this site alone, which are still setting new limits such as Contrast. A lot of these levels don't get discovered though and it seems that if you're not part of a fan-site to share your project, it has a high chance of going unnoticed unfortunately.		2013-05-22 16:04:00

Author:
craigmond
Posts: 2426

Folks talk about pushing the envelope and doing jaw dropping things. To be honest, I think sometimes they forget about what makes really great levels. FUN!! Sometimes there is so much fiddly junk and concern about drop dead gorgeous graphics that they forget about "FUN". Sometimes really simple things and concepts are horrible fun and addictive. Not saying that there aren't extremely complicated things that are not just as fun, but I think sometimes when creators think about pushing the envelope they forget that simple things can also be totally fun and new.

When I talked about "jaw-dropping", and "innovative", I didn't really mean levels that had to look amazing or be logically intensive. I meant levels that were completely new or different, so out of the box and with its own style that it becomes cemented in your memory (like A Level In Create Mode). The fact that most pioneer levels are either logically intensive or great visually just shows that great ideas often require you to do out of the box things that require great logic or visuals, since the game has literally nothing to make things easy for you.

As for fun...it really can't be fun without being innovative for me anymore. Fun is nothing if you know what you're getting into. I've been with this game for two years and any more of the same will make me groan. Yu-kamone's first three levels were great fun, but by her 15th it was getting a bit stale for me. I know Ramp can be more fun than LittleBigCalculator but if you've played 906 Ramps LittleBigCalculator would be a breath of fresh air, and in that way, the so called levels that only exist for innovation end up being more fun than the "fun" levels that don't innovate. I just think it's the whole "crazy innovation" thing is doing stuff the game doesn't expect you to do, and with more and more stuff being what the game is expecting, I think that's where the pioneer levels are becoming fewer and fewer.		2013-05-22 23:31:00

Author:
Kalawishis
Posts: 928

Kalawishis. You would probably love my levels since my stuff is almost always innovative. but sadly I have a problem where I spend forever on my levels and rarely complete anything. So yeah I don't even have any levels out atm that are worth looking at. I make my levels to actually be like real games instead of the simple levels or minigames like almost everybody else tries to make. and as such. my game projects take me ages and I sadly get burnt out a lot. Yohho. my thing with always trying to make epic adventures in LBP gets me nowhere. But I can't help it. basic LBP style levels just don't interest me. hopefully I'll be able to complete 1 or 2 of my LBP projects soon after I get back into the game. If you are still around by then. you'll likely enjoy my stuff. *mew2013-05-22 23:48:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz
Posts: 4261

I certainly wasn't a pioneer...but I did buy lbp day 1. jww's comment about "fun" is exactly the reason I abandoned my 2nd lbp vita level after countless hours...it just wasn't fun. It will take a while to recover from such a colossal failure, hopefully when/if lbp3/ps4 rolls out its not just more of the same and will bring something new to spur the old creative urge...mostly I just hope it won't be so tedious!2013-05-23 04:38:00

Author:
fullofwin
Posts: 1214

It depends what pioneer means, really. I pretty much feel the same way as you: no levels wow me anymore, expect for a very select few (namely Mnniska's because good lord they are great). I think the issue is nostalgia and growing up. Back on LBP1, I had no clue how comphermc and rtm223 did what they did. Now it isn't nearly as hard to recreate the impressive logic. Levels seemed much more impressive because of the sense of wonder and awe. Also, a lot of people (including myself) forget that innovation doesn't stand by itself. You can have a truly innovative level that is still a piece of crap. What's important is that the level is also well laid out, polished, etc... That's what made comphermc's and Mammet_Box's levels so good back on LBP1. Nowadays, there a lot of people who will use innovation as a crutch. I know I did for a few of my levels. The problem was that they just were not enjoyable for most people.

I dunno, I'll need to think about it a bit more. This whole post is a bit rambly and that's probably because it's late at night.		2013-05-23 05:57:00

Author:
bonner123
Posts: 1487

It depends what pioneer means, really. I pretty much feel the same way as you: no levels wow me anymore, expect for a very select few (namely Mnniska's because good lord they are great). I think the issue is nostalgia and growing up. Back on LBP1, I had no clue how comphermc and rtm223 did what they did. Now it isn't nearly as hard to recreate the impressive logic. Levels seemed much more impressive because of the sense of wonder and awe. Also, a lot of people (including myself) forget that innovation doesn't stand by itself. You can have a truly innovative level that is still a piece of crap. What's important is that the level is also well laid out, polished, etc... That's what made comphermc's and Mammet_Box's levels so good back on LBP1. Nowadays, there a lot of people who will use innovation as a crutch. I know I did for a few of my levels. The problem was that they just were not enjoyable for most people.

I dunno, I'll need to think about it a bit more. This whole post is a bit rambly and that's probably because it's late at night.

Yeah, generally nothing wows me anymore either. In 2011 I was pretty inexperienced with logic and almost anything logical was amazing to me. Now I can usually "see" a level's inner workings in my head and nothing is a mystery to me anymore (except for some Evret creations). I hope LBP3 cures that.

If a creator nowadays is going to want to go into the pioneer books it's harder since we've all gotten better at level-making as a community. They're going to have to do something really spectacular and new. Speaking of which...


Kalawishis. You would probably love my levels since my stuff is almost always innovative. but sadly I have a problem where I spend forever on my levels and rarely complete anything. So yeah I don't even have any levels out atm that are worth looking at. I make my levels to actually be like real games instead of the simple levels or minigames like almost everybody else tries to make. and as such. my game projects take me ages and I sadly get burnt out a lot. Yohho. my thing with always trying to make epic adventures in LBP gets me nowhere. But I can't help it. basic LBP style levels just don't interest me. hopefully I'll be able to complete 1 or 2 of my LBP projects soon after I get back into the game. If you are still around by then. you'll likely enjoy my stuff. *mew


I played your levels about a year ago. I don't remember much about them but they were really fun, and I liked the whole concept. They were innovative, but not crazy innovative, and they didn't really push my imagination. They were really more like small pioneer levels, which are still better than most of the stuff.

...

On a side note, I myself had tried to create a pioneer level myself. It was called SackDroid - Part 1, and you've probably all heard of it since I mention it wherever I go. I think it was new and crazy and boundary pushing enough to become a pioneer level, with it's story and style putting it into people's memories. It also had tons of bugs, crashed your game half the time and took two hours to complete, so fingers crossed for Part 2.		2013-05-23 13:38:00

Author:
Kalawishis
Posts: 928

I played your levels about a year ago. I don't remember much about them but they were really fun, and I liked the whole concept. They were innovative, but not crazy innovative, and they didn't really push my imagination. They were really more like small pioneer levels, which are still better than most of the stuff.

The only levels you could had played of mine were the levels I made for LBPC1. They were pretty bad imo and I knew it at the time too. But there was still a handful of people who loved them for some reason. But what happened was I wanted to see how many levels I could make within 1 month as a test. so I made 3 levels and 2 cut scene levels which the result. So honestly you haven't got to play any of the real levels I've been making. So you got much to look forward to from me. but more then anything I just try to make my levels what I consider personally to be fun for me. *mew		2013-05-23 16:32:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz
Posts: 4261

Accidentally deleted this post during an edit attempt:

I don't know how innovative I am, but I try to work on things I don't see others doing.

Things I'm trying to complete:
?A vehicle race that is longer than the create area
?A level where you can build anything you want with Lego-like bricks
?A randomly generated sudoku puzzle board
?A Clue-inspired board game
?A platformer where the whole level never stops moving
? A multi-player space dogfight with a retro look.
?A platformer that extends the background into the playable area.

Though, lately I have been distracted with making single layer cars look as much like the real thing as possible. My attention wanders easily, which annoys me, because I want to finish my levels.

I also have a little bouncy wheeled vehicle I would like to design a platformer around, but haven't started on.		2013-05-23 16:56:00

Author:
DreadRandal
Posts: 434

Accidentally deleted this post during an edit attempt:

I don't know how innovative I am, but I try to work on things I don't see others doing.

Things I'm trying to complete:
?A vehicle race that is longer than the create area
?A level where you can build anything you want with Lego-like bricks
?A randomly generated sudoku puzzle board
?A Clue-inspired board game
?A platformer where the whole level never stops moving
? A multi-player space dogfight with a retro look.
?A platformer that extends the background into the playable area.

Though, lately I have been distracted with making single layer cars look as much like the real thing as possible. My attention wanders easily, which annoys me, because I want to finish my levels.

I also have a little bouncy wheeled vehicle I would like to design a platformer around, but haven't started on.

There probably is a Sudoku level out there. I haven't checked, but it's very popular so I could see someone making it.

By "Clue" I'm guessing you mean the board game (we call it Cluedo)? I did think about doing this at one point before I moved onto my Contrast level.... which took waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay longer to make than I had hoped, so it pretty much burned me out! 		2013-05-23 17:32:00

Author:
Ali_Star
Posts: 4085

Yes, Clue and Cluedo are the same game. My version is called Pseudo Cluedo.

Also, I have played sudoku on LBP2, but they were preset boards with no replay value. I was looking to always have a fresh board every time you play.		2013-05-23 18:59:00

Author:
DreadRandal
Posts: 434

Yes, Clue and Cluedo are the same game. My version is called Pseudo Cluedo.

Also, I have played sudoku on LBP2, but they were preset boards with no replay value. I was looking to always have a fresh board every time you play.

That sounds like a nightmare, logically! How does decide what numbers to leave at the beginning? Because you have to make sure the user is able to complete the puzzle with the numbers they're giving, whilst still keep it challenging.		2013-05-23 19:32:00

Author:
Ali_Star
Posts: 4085

Ive got 4 or 5 levels nearly done , very polished and beautiful , but im not done so im going to keep working , i hope the community in game and on central likes what ive created but ive been wrong before .I delted my 10 worst levels to make room for better things i kept the ones i liked and so did the community , some times you create something and then decide you hate it sadly ... my new stuff i love so it will stay .2013-05-23 20:02:00

Author:
Brutal
Posts: 184

Some fairly recent levels that dared to dream.

http://lbp.me/v/hzwwp3
http://lbp.me/v/jhr7mv
http://lbp.me/v/jcg974
http://lbp.me/v/-01vm0
http://lbp.me/v/f181tr

Plenty of innovayshun still going on. 'Pioneers' though? The first year or so of LBP2 was a great period for new ideas and mechanics, but harking back to LBP1 as a hotbed of 'game changing' levels strikes me as nostalgia. My memory tells me it was a gradual incline of ambition and quality, made in many small steps by a great many creators.		2013-05-23 20:10:00

Author:
julesyjules
Posts: 1156

Some fairly recent levels that dared to dream.

http://lbp.me/v/hzwwp3
http://lbp.me/v/jhr7mv
http://lbp.me/v/jcg974
http://lbp.me/v/-01vm0
http://lbp.me/v/f181tr

Plenty of innovayshun still going on. 'Pioneers' though? The first year or so of LBP2 was a great period for new ideas and mechanics, but harking back to LBP1 as a hotbed of 'game changing' levels strikes me as nostalgia. My memory tells me it was a gradual incline of ambition and quality, made in many small steps by a great many creators.

Yeah, it could be nostalgia. Back then I was impressed by everything. As time went on I went on to only be really impressed by the really epic, innovative things. Now, I'm not impressed by much. I think something's going to have to do something really crazy, long, and epic to impress me. It's pretty sad, I know.

I personally have many ideas in my head, like:
-A platformer that insults you based on your actions (ex. Sackboy respawns, narrator says, "I think you're the checkpoint's vomit").
-A touch-based LBP Vita shooter where you have to hold down the L, R, X, and D-Pad down with your fingers or else you die, forcing you to control with your face.
-A LBP Vita level where you have to read text while shaking the Vita up and down.
-A LBP Vita movie where you take pictures of yourself with different facial expressions, put them on sticker panels that can be turned on or off, and the sticker panels follow in front of a sackbot who will be the main character of the movie.

None of these are really that "pioneery" if they aren't done that greatly. I think the only real pioneer level I have an idea for is SackDroid - Part 2.		2013-05-23 22:36:00

Author:
Kalawishis
Posts: 928

It depends on what inspires you I guess. I've played levels where the logic and visuals involved were immense and incredibly intricate and have pootled onto the scoreboard with a shrug of my shoulders. But design a really crafty piece of gameplay out of a sponge and a timer and I'm always impressed. If anything is lacking from levels lately, I wouldn't say it was innovation, but challenge. I know the game (especially at this point) has a disproportionate amount of younger players, but I play a lot of levels that are beautifully built, decorated and designed yet require only a modicum of skill to complete, and way easier than the majority of story mode...Grow some platforming balls please! : /2013-05-23 23:01:00

Author:
julesyjules
Posts: 1156

It depends on what inspires you I guess. I've played levels where the logic and visuals involved were immense and incredibly intricate and have pootled onto the scoreboard with a shrug of my shoulders. But design a really crafty piece of gameplay out of a sponge and a timer and I'm always impressed. If anything is lacking from levels lately, I wouldn't say it was innovation, but challenge. I know the game (especially at this point) has a disproportionate amount of younger players, but I play a lot of levels that are beautifully built, decorated and designed yet require only a modicum of skill to complete...grow some platforming balls please!

Like those pillars of peril? Don't know how many times I had to start over.. screaming at a certain creator.

..but yeah I do agree. A challenge is quite cool, either in puzzle form or platforming. ...even better a mix of both.		2013-05-23 23:05:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

Ha. It wasn't that difficult, you softie.2013-05-23 23:12:00

Author:
julesyjules
Posts: 1156

Ha. It wasn't that difficult, you softie.

At the time it was... lol Now not so much. 		2013-05-23 23:51:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

I feel the same way about this subject Kalawishis. As of now, there are still a few small pockets of elite creators here and there... But that bar has been set so high, that its difficult to really top what's out there in the game. I think that underexposure really killed off a lot of people's interest in this game. I know a handful of talented creators who quit playing the game, simply because of having little to no plays. Especially today, as we see more questionable levels get Mm picked every week by God knows who lol. I miss the Spaff era haha, when it was actually hard to get an Mm pick. Spaff's era had standards back then. Nowadays, if you know StevenI personally, create season themed levels, and/or make anything visually pleasing... You get Mm picked. Other than that, I know a few good creators who are still active

(Headman-1000, MastaBlastya, Brandon23420, Links_R_Us,AngeloMattei, LoVeRiCe, Tynz21)		2013-05-25 06:31:00

Author:
RoDRiGo-FiLiPiNo
Posts: 60

I feel the same way about this subject Kalawishis. As of now, there are still a few small pockets of elite creators here and there... But that bar has been set so high, that its difficult to really top what's out there in the game. I think that underexposure really killed off a lot of people's interest in this game. I know a handful of talented creators who quit playing the game, simply because of having little to no plays. Especially today, as we see more questionable levels get Mm picked every week by God knows who lol. I miss the Spaff era haha, when it was actually hard to get an Mm pick. Spaff's era had standards back then. Nowadays, if you know StevenI personally, create season themed levels, and/or make anything visually pleasing... You get Mm picked. Other than that, I know a few good creators who are still active

(Headman-1000, MastaBlastya, Brandon23420, Links_R_Us,AngeloMattei, LoVeRiCe, Tynz21)

...Loverice is still active? *Checks lbp.me* Oh, he got back just 19 hours ago!		2013-05-25 13:29:00

Author:
Kalawishis
Posts: 928

Yea, LoVeRiCe has been making REALLY COMPLEX games, I think he has 5-6 games in the making. Other than that, yea he still creates here and there.

Man, I hope that LBP3 gives people from our age group a more broad reason to stick with the game. This franchise in general has a disproportional amount of little kids playing this game. I hope that in the future, an indie game company makes a game where players can be indie game developers (Indie Gameception) in the PS4, similar to Steam's Mods, along with content that fits an older audience. I honestly never bought LBP1 and 2 for the cheesy stories, I bought them because of create mode. Lol, I've never made an actual platformer since I started playing LBP		2013-05-25 19:06:00

Author:
RoDRiGo-FiLiPiNo
Posts: 60

If you asked me, creators exhausted most of the potential of the game in the LBP2 BETA.

In my honest opinion, I think no one raises the bar anymore because they simply can't. I've seen 5-level-long RPGs, amazing vertical and side-scrolling shooters, and 3D levels, and I really think that's the best we can do with the tools we have. From a creator's perspective, this game is far too limiting to "truly" innovate.

Whenever I start a level, the goal is to make it the best it can possibly be. But every time (and I mean EVERY TIME) I have issues with thermometer, issues with logic limitations and issues with making sophisticated visuals (which I'd hoped the Paint tool would slightly remedy, but I can't hold that Move controller steady for the life of me). On top of that, this game is riddled with small annoying design choices and glitches that make things far more complicated than necessary to get it EXACTLY the way you want it.

I don't think this game was designed for longevity. Most of the amazing stuff you can do like 3D visuals comes from actually BREAKING THE GAME! They only give you basically 7 layers to work with, basic tools and they call that a "platform for games"?

Don't get me wrong, I love this game 'till death! But I really think MM could've done better with the design of the game altogether.

Now, all we really do is just find ways to do the same stuff we've already done better (platformers) and make remakes...

Let"s hope they learn for PS4!		2013-05-31 14:46:00

Author:
comishguy67
Posts: 849

In my honest opinion, I think no one raises the bar anymore because they simply can't. I've seen 5-level-long RPGs, amazing vertical and side-scrolling shooters, and 3D levels, and I really think that's the best we can do with the tools we have. From a creator's perspective, this game is far too limiting to "truly" innovate.


First of all, I'd like links.
Secondly, I think you can really do something new and great if you are truly inspired. I mean, anybody can work hard, but nobody can work themselves into inspiration. We haven't exhausted all the opportunities, we've exhausted all the obvious ones. There are still too few story driven levels with good stories.		2013-06-01 00:00:00

Author:
Kalawishis
Posts: 928

First of all, I'd like links.
Secondly, I think you can really do something new and great if you are truly inspired. I mean, anybody can work hard, but nobody can work themselves into inspiration. We haven't exhausted all the opportunities, we've exhausted all the obvious ones. There are still too few story driven levels with good stories.

Just play the some of the older Mm picks. Plenty of 3D levels, a couple of RPGs, and shooters.

and there are plenty of good story driven levels...Look up the levels entered in the PLCC3 contest. The one that won especially.

I think you just need to play more levels. I've been playing since LBP1 and I'm pretty sure I've seen it all, lol.

i get inspired all the time, but that doesn't always mean I have the tools to make my inspiration a reality.		2013-06-01 00:31:00

Author:
comishguy67
Posts: 849

Inspiration can be sometimes a bad friend. With time, we got used of the game mechanics and when a new idea sprouts, we rush into making it and rest on our actual knowledge. For the last contest, I spent two weeks one an idea and realized everybody would have done the exact same thing (and that's exactly what happened). So I had to think differently and proposed a new idea, with a time-travel mechanic that was never made before (unfortunately, I didn't win because during the process, I forgot something that was discussed earlier in this thread: a good level also have to be fun, and mine is totally not).

So, to come back to pionneers... well, basically, if you have a good idea, scrap it. Your second idea will push you in a direction you wouldn't have taken before. And everything will follow: new idea, new goals, new logic, contraptions, etc. If that's too hard and there is no tutorial, you're on a good way! 		2013-06-02 23:31:00

Author:
Djibees
Posts: 189

I find in creating a new level, I like to push myself in different directions. Learning new logic I didn't know before. Using different combinations of materials in different ways.There are a lot of innovative levels out there. You just have to look for them. Just_tom__ http://lbp.me/u/Just_Tom__ is a excellent creator, who's levels are challenging and creative. Slufoot_48 http://lbp.me/u/SluFoot_48 is another amazing creator. ^_^ I could list off a lot of excellent creators for you...

a_robot_dlO__Olb
sayuri357
yu-kamone
jinixi
a-tziluth
se-mi92
TheNotorious-187
Chessguy
MOTH_76
ITARBOYI
nitaria
SAMURAI-09
cupcake0335
SasukeUchica
loz2502
POWDER-001
Mamett-Box
spring-
steve-tr
ryouko-y

Thats just a few creators I would recommend for you to check out. Each are revolutionary in their own way. Don't lose hope with the community ^_- there are still lots of hidden gems out there. Levels and creators to be discovered ^_^.		2013-06-03 19:15:00

Author:
calyst_aayla
Posts: 217

I do have my moments of worrying that the number of good creators is shrinking but the game is over 4 years old after all. When I'm being sensible I have to agree that there?s a lot still to be positive about and that?s a great list of creators. So much talent there. I?d only add few more names

MrMik68
Elguerogigante
SLS10 (when he?s being serious )
Julesyjules
Rio_Lotta
Xx_Mr_Orange_xX
BOIA
Kipmonlin


And that?s just off the top of my head. I?m sure there are a lot more if I sat and thought about it...and apologies to anybody I've missed that I shouldn?t have. That?s why I don't normally like these lists but I just wanted to agree with Cal that there?s no need to be so despondent about the future of the game with creators of that calibre and inventiveness still making levels.		2013-06-03 20:19:00

Author:
shropshirelass
Posts: 1455

SLS10 (when he’s being serious )


You can blame me for that.		2013-06-04 01:00:00

Author:
bonner123
Posts: 1487

I was hoping if Steve_Big_Guns still plays LBP. I haven't seen him publish a level in a long time. Isn't he a pioneer?2013-06-04 03:48:00

Author:
Apple2012
Posts: 1408

I'm pretty sure he's a pioneer, but I'm also pretty sure he doesn't play anymore.2013-06-04 18:11:00

Author:
Robo4900
Posts: 409

I was hoping if Steve_Big_Guns still plays LBP. I haven't seen him publish a level in a long time. Isn't he a pioneer?

I believe he still works at Digital Sumo. ...so a pioneer on LBP3. lol		2013-06-04 18:20:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

Good to see this become another, "who are your favorite creators" thread...

It would be nice for you all to showcase the work that gives them the title of "pioneer".

Allow me:

Smacker_92: Made the first fully animated movie. http://lbp.me/v/yhz2-0

GILUPL: Made the first board game with AI. http://lbp.me/v/zf0k5-

Evret: Made the first playable 3D shooter. http://lbp.me/v/1g9hte

Johnee: Made the first twin-stick shooter. http://lbp.me/v/w-328s

Gevurah22: Made the first beat-em-up. http://lbp.me/v/xt6jj6

Foofles: Made the first top-down shooter I recall. http://lbp.me/v/xnbyvw

Felkroth: Made the first multi-level RPG. http://lbp.me/v/y-frxj

Ladylyn: Made the first near feature-length movie. http://lbp.me/v/09-wez

steve_big_guns: Made the first 3D racer. http://lbp.me/v/z-4s8m

Of course there are plenty others, but I can't confirm them.		2013-06-04 19:11:00

Author:
comishguy67
Posts: 849

Good to see this become another, "who are your favorite creators" thread...



Touch? but the point was to try and counter the idea that the game has a lot less to offer in terms of talent or innovation just because it is harder for creators these days to do something dramatically ground breaking.

I think boundaries are still being pushed but that it’s a more gradual process, not the big steps which it was easier to make in the early stages of the game. Inevitably the creators active in the first year of LBP2 were going to be pioneers in the sense they would be the first to create particular types of level/gameplay. They had uncharted territory before them. You’ve listed some wonderful examples and it certainly was a period of intense creativity but I believe it puts too high a premium on novelty to say that only creators who are the first to do something can truly be called great and that nothing as worthwhile is being done today because it can’t be as “crazy innovative”.

Of course, creativity and innovation are important. Pretty but thoroughly pedestrian platformers, or any other levels with very generic gameplay, are not much fun but new things are still being done. The Spotlights are still full of great levels. For example, Elguerogigante’s Hey Bro...Those Are Some Glorious Wormholes! (http://lbp.me/v/h7fvmv/reviews) has brilliantly designed gameplay using portals that retain the speed/direction of the sackboy as you travel through them. Pretty much any one of MrMik’s levels is full of clever and innovative gameplay. I wouldn’t necessarily say that any of the creators I listed was a real “pioneer” but I suppose I just don’t understand why so much emphasis is being put on that. All of them produce brilliantly designed inventive levels which are also fun to play (to re-iterate the points made earlier). While they continue to create I don’t think anyone should be too despondent about the state of the game.		2013-06-05 03:27:00

Author:
shropshirelass
Posts: 1455

Touch? but the point was to try and counter the idea that the game has a lot less to offer in terms of talent or innovation just because it is harder for creators these days to do something dramatically ground breaking.

I think boundaries are still being pushed but that it's a more gradual process, not the big steps which it was easier to make in the early stages of the game. Inevitably the creators active in the first year of LBP2 were going to be pioneers in the sense they would be the first to create a particular types of level/gameplay. They had uncharted territory before them. You?ve listed some wonderful examples and it certainly was a period of intense creativity but I believe it puts too high a premium on novelty to say that only creators who are the first to do something can truly be called great and that nothing as worthwhile is being done today because it can?t be as ?crazy innovative?.

Of course, creativity and innovation are important. Pretty but thoroughly pedestrian platformers and other equally hackneyed forms of gameplay are no fun for anyone but new things are still being done. The Spotlights are still full of great levels. For example, Elguerogigante?s Hey Bro...Those Are Some Glorious Wormholes! (http://lbp.me/v/h7fvmv/reviews) has brilliantly designed gameplay using portals that retain the speed/direction of the sackboy as you travel through them. Pretty much any one of MrMik?s levels is full of clever and innovative gameplay. I wouldn?t necessarily say that any of the creators I listed was a real ?pioneer? but I suppose I just don't understand why so much emphasis is being put on that. All of them produce brilliantly designed inventive levels which are also fun to play (to re-iterate the points made earlier). While they continue to create I don't think anyone should be too despondent about the state of the game.

This thread is talking about pioneers...not innovators. So I suppose it's assumed all terms like "innovative" and the like used in this thread were correlated to the subject of pioneering.

Pioneering, by definition, means starting something that paves the way for innovation. Innovation, in regards to pioneering, means to improve upon something that has been established.

As you have said, all the pioneering began at the beginning of the game because the creators were exhausting all of the potential the game could offer...which without DLC and glitches, isn't much...

I suppose you are more or less right when you say the game still does have potential to "innovate", but when it comes to doing some "truly groundbreaking things", it's either reserved for those with a lot of time, patience, and an extremely resourceful mind, or simply not perceptibly possible.

On the subject of innovation though...I would say it's harder to find something that at the least "feels" new, especially for so-called veterans like me who have played the game since the LBP1 BETA...

But that's just me.		2013-06-05 05:07:00

Author:
comishguy67
Posts: 849

On the subject of innovation though...I would say it's harder to find something that at the least "feels" new, especially for so-called veterans like me who have played the game since the LBP1 BETA...

But that's just me.

People's perceptions of the game are obviously going to be subjective anyway to a degree. If the game feels stale to you personally, well then I can't argue with that XD I even agree that things are quieter than they used to be. I just don't think that we've seen the end of innovation or that there are no great creators left...but then you may be tempted to point out that by the same token that can't be an entirely objective view either.

EDIT: Sorry, but as regards the text you've highlighted in bold, I do understand that the thread is about pioneers (or ratherthe lack of them now). That was just my very wishy-washy way of saying I didn't think such importance should necessarily be attached to being a pioneer. XD		2013-06-05 08:21:00

Author:
shropshirelass
Posts: 1455

...There are still too few story driven levels with good stories.

Scrolling through my hearted list, there really haven't been that many levels that have a sense of epic along the lines of Dajs 'Arabesque' and Comph's 'Wizard', bar the odd one here or there. One of the LBPC comps produced some good sprawling stories. Anybody know of any that may have gone under the radar?		2013-06-07 11:58:00

Author:
julesyjules
Posts: 1156

Regarding stories, it must be difficult for someone to come up with a good story that feels fairly professional. It's nothing something that you can just patch together with a few logic tools and material. I'd rather play a level with no story, than a level with a badly written, amateur-ish story.2013-06-07 12:29:00

Author:
Ali_Star
Posts: 4085

Yeah. It seems a lot of people can be great with visuals and logic but when they try to think up something with plot, setting, and characters, they go a tad blank. Story is probably quite a bit untapped in LBP2. I've played a lot of levels that hinted at stories, or had "joke" stories, but I haven't seen much driven by a story.

Although I must say most movies here break the rule.		2013-06-08 02:04:00

Author:
Kalawishis
Posts: 928

I agree. It’s hard to come up with many good levels where the story has been a really key feature (assuming we’re talking about levels with gameplay and not movies). The difficulty lies in getting the balance between story and gameplay right. If the story is a complex one the creator risks overloading the player with reading and/or cutscenes. Sometimes you can tell a creator has put a great deal of thought into the backstory and a range of characters but doesn’t quite manage to get it all across in a compelling way. It’s not easy to pull off.

A lot of levels that I think of as story levels have in fact a very simple story. The winner of LBPC6, A Demon’s Parlay, is a good example. The story is really just a peg for some great gameplay and fantastic settings. A-tziluth’s Witch of Roses is the same – it’s a great adventure but the storyline is the classic “rescue the princess” fairy tale.

I can also think of levels which have created very engaging characters. The Boss and his downtrodden sidekick from Bobtox's Skunk Factory series, Blanchrocker’s equivalent pair in his Machiniac series. I have also become very fond Mr Ratzinger in Mamett-Box’s series. Perhaps it’s easier to integrate strong characters successfully into gameplay levels than it is an indepth story, as you can do it (if you have the writing skills!) in relatively short bursts of dialogue or short cutscenes which don’t break up the flow of the gameplay too much. Actually, Kalawishis, I really took to Bit and PJ in your Sackdroid level series.

So, yes, there don’t seem to be many great levels that are truly story driven. Even with Alley_Cat’s totally awesome SoD series, the story as such never made a huge impact on me – unlike the gameplay and scenery. I’m embarrassed to say I can’t even remember what SoD stands for!		2013-06-08 11:19:00

Author:
shropshirelass
Posts: 1455

Seems I had a story driven series going quite awhile ago... maybe more memorable if I would ever finish it. lol2013-06-08 14:08:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

I can also think of levels which have created very engaging characters. The Boss and his downtrodden sidekick from Bobtox's Skunk Factory series, Blanchrocker’s equivalent pair in his Machiniac series. I have also become very fond Mr Ratzinger in Mamett-Box’s series. Perhaps it’s easier to integrate strong characters successfully into gameplay levels than it is an indepth story, as you can do it (if you have the writing skills!) in relatively short bursts of dialogue or short cutscenes which don’t break up the flow of the gameplay too much. Actually, Kalawishis, I really took to Bit and PJ in your Sackdroid level series.


Yeah, I think you got what I was thinking, put in better words. I think what separates the "true" stories from the "side" stories is, indeed, the characters and setting, not the plot. Skunk Factory's gameplay was good, but what really made it great for me was how engaging the world and characters were. Same with Machiniac. I wouldn't care much about some people trying to take over the world but the steam punk and the characters made it great.

Oh, and thanks.		2013-06-08 15:45:00

Author:
Kalawishis
Posts: 928

Yeah. It seems a lot of people can be great with visuals and logic but when they try to think up something with plot, setting, and characters, they go a tad blank. Story is probably quite a bit untapped in LBP2. I've played a lot of levels that hinted at stories, or had "joke" stories, but I haven't seen much driven by a story.
In fact, this is pretty hard to find somebody who can come with both logic, plot, design, and everything else... That's why game developpers work in teams: the one with the good plot isn't necessarily the one with the logic, or the one who makes the music can not always be good at designing level, etc.

If you look at the levels who have good stories, characters and setting, there is often somebody else involved or credited. This is how the community should work, but it is hard to gather people because each of us have a personal project they want to do first. So, we have pionneers, but they are almost limited by themselves. I'm aware of this because, let's be honest, I'm great in writing plots, good in logic, average in design, and I totally suck at music composing. But, as most of people here, I work on my daily hours, I'm not connected every day, and when I'm in, sometimes I'm just not in the mood to share or just talk to other people. Add to this the fact that to make a decent level, it can take weeks or months... all the pioneers are there, on their moon, working on their own stuff; we just don't see them.

But, come with a contest, and suddenly everybody is focused. Why? Because there's something at the end, even if it is only a virtual crown or a tag in your sig, or the promise of being played. A contest is to the pioneer what the gravitation is to an apple.		2013-06-12 03:18:00

Author:
Djibees
Posts: 189

There are certainly pioneers out there still, they're just a bit fewer because of how far we've pushed the envelope thusfar. There are still plenty of great levels out there (as highlighted via MM picks, or even our own showcase), and many of these have quality that would be unheard of in LBP1, which makes it all that much harder for a level to shine.

Innovation has without a doubt become considerably harder as time has gone on. "Ramp" and "Bomb Survival" used to be incredibly fun and new concepts. (Maybe i'm exaggerating with ramp a little ) The bar is continually set higher for what defines a "polished" level, and think of all that's been done over these years! What started as a simple platformer has now given birth to first person shooters, RPG epics, musical masterpieces, and much more! It takes a tremendous effort to even find a bar that hasn't been pushed in some way, which is partially why I love LBP so much .

IMO a big contribution to some of the original pioneers leaving is burnout. Putting together a polished level takes a LOT of time and effort. I imagine that most of the creators of yore still had oodles of ideas to produce, but when you're busy with college, or a 9-5, or a family it becomes a lot harder to find the time, and perhaps a bit harder to put forth the effort. It's been over a year since I helped push forward LBPCTG, and I still can't find the time to publish an actual level. I have a notebook full of level designs i'd love to make, but I just can't get myself to spend another month+ of work on them. And i'm in no way as good a creator as some of the great's mentioned in this thread, and my "innovations" weren't nearly as groudbreaking! Pushing forward the consistent innovation and quality that they managed is still an insane concept to me, and i'm continually impressed by those who still find time to share their love of creation with the rest of us.		2013-06-12 05:38:00

Author:
Burnvictim42
Posts: 3322

I like to think of myself as a pioneer, or rather, I used to be. I was always trying to push the boundaries of what was possible in LBP1 and again in LBP2. It occurred to me later, that I had very little to show for it. I had several tech demos of mechs I had built for a pioneering mech level that never came to be: the mechs were just never quite good enough to make for a fun level, despite some technical achievements.

The only level I published that got any real attention (and boy did it ever get some attention!) was an offshoot from a more ambitious project: I wanted to build a melee weapon combat system for a series of story driven levels. Around the same time I had done a bit of experimenting with making a lightsaber visual effect that I thought had come out pretty good. I wasn't planning on doing any more with the lightsaber beyond that, but when it came time to test out my melee tech, I applied it to the lightsaber I had built. My nephew played around with it with me and we thought it was fun. He suggested I build a level for it so I cranked one out in a couple of weeks. Last I checked, it was the 30th most hearted level in all of LBP (almost 8 million levels) and the 6th most hearted in LBP (almost 3 million).

While I was pleased with the success of my lightsaber level, I ignored the numerous requests for a sequel in favor of continuing on my epic. Eventually, and with not much to show for it beyond several character designs and a handful of vehicles and other odds and ends, my interest waned. The project was just too big and I didn't have the time to dedicate to it. I ended up leaving LBP for over two years.

Recently, I was discussing my "glory days" in LBP with a friend and it occurred to me that I probably would have had more fun with the game if I'd focused more on smaller projects than trying to push all of the limits I possibly could with a huge epic. So I decided to come out of retirement for one last heist... err.. level. Lots of people enjoyed my first lightsaber level and I had given some thought to several improvements so I decided to make a sequel. It's not the most pioneering thing to do, but it's a finished, published level that people can actually play, which is worth so much more than all of the half-finished projects on my moon.		2013-06-15 00:55:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188


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