Archive: 26 posts

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Despite the name, I want to lead off by saying these are merely a helpful set of guidelines for track making. They are not solid rules and can be twisted a little bit, but the creators of Modnation more or less agreed that these things need to be in place for people to like your track and want to play it more then once. I, am IvoYaridovich. I was probably best known for my brutal honesty in track critiques, and my habit of unpublishing every track I had made about every 4-5 months to rework them. My best track was probably Ivo's Snowboard Cross, which had 3000 downloads in its first incarnation and got back up to 1000 before I quit the game for good. You can see it here: http://youtu.be/T1dFAt42R-o So hopefully, people will listen and not just shun me off, because this game is new and I see a lot of people doing the things the top creators in modnation pruned out of practice (and the modnation peeps I play this game with complain about it too). I've played a lot of tracks that, while pretty, were rather frustrating to race and some that raced well but were absolutely atrocious to look at. So I'd like to help you all out with a few guidelines. Perhaps a few of the other modnation creators will also pipe in and state things that I have missed. Oh, and these only apply to actual race tracks. Disregard for anything else. 1. The Track, is ALWAYS more important then the scenery. This right here, is the big one. Scenery, is not what will make or break your track. Your track can only be enhanced by the scenery, but putting christmas lights and glitter on a turd doesn't help. Make sure your track is fun to race without any scenery at all, because without that, you'll have nothing more then a shiny, and polished piece of poo that no one will want to give a second look because it smelled funny the first time around. Always get the mechanics in first, and scenery in second. It will help. 2. If a turn is not obvious, make it obvious. I like to subtitle this by saying, you need to build every track with the mindset that everyone is going to suck at it and will need their hand held. As rude as that sounds, it will make people enjoy what you make far more. First impressions are everything and if people are constantly crashing into the far wall or flying off the track because they had no idea a turn was coming up they're not going to like what you've made. Make sure they know, people instintively look for arrows to point them along in racing games. Use arrows, fences, walls, and any other creative way you can think of to make sure that if the track turns left, people know to turn left. 3. Limit automatic jumps, in length and quantity. Launchers can be fun, they really can. However, if you put too many on the track, then your race is suddenly less of a race and more of an autopilot session. Also, being in the air for longer then it takes to do 4 spins has no point, unless you have a real good reason or it is the only scripted jump in the track, try to avoid it. People get bored when they feel the game takes too much control out of their hands and scripted jumps do that. Also, try to limit mid air hazards as mid-air steering gets less responsive the more it is used and can make it very hard to dodge during these jumps. 4. The camera, and the uphill climb. Uphill climbs in racing games are very difficult with a camera that has limited rotation. You never want to make the uphill too steep or you run into the issue that the camera is basically staring at a wall. You also want to make sure that you don't make any steep uphill climb too busy in mechanics as people will be far more blind to it due to the camera angle. A good rule of thumb, is to make any uphill section, a constant and leave anything hectic for the flats and downhills. Also, using jumps to gain height quickly for a longer downhill is encouraged. 5. Cresting hills and natural jumps need a landing area. Slightly abstract, but any time your kart leaves the ground, you want to ensure the area while the kart is airborn, remains straight until the kart has landed. Karts have very limited mobility in the air, so if you leave the ground and go airborn due to a hill cresting midturn, that turn needs to go straight until it is certain the kart will have landed again before resuming the turn. It is also a very bad idea to have any jump landing into or on to a curve. Always give people a chance to straighten out and then get into a turn. If you need to crest a hill on a turn, bank it so that the kart does not leave the ground, which leads to. 6. Watch your banking. Big rule of thumb here, if you bank a turn or the track, two things should never occur. A, you should not be thrown at a wall. B. You should not leave the track. A good rule for banking a turn, is to always have the outside edge higher then the inside edge. If you want to make the turn harder, lower the outside edge. However, if you put the outside edge of the turn lower then the inside, keep in mind that the turn will then naturally try to throw the kart to the outside edge and you will have to make the turn much, much wider to prevent people from falling off the turn. This goes hand in hand with rule 1 and 2. Keep people from hitting the walls on purpose. 7. Hazard, with care. Hazards are fun. They can make a full track exciting, however, you can in fact go overboard. Hazards are at their best, during 2 occasions. A, Risk-Reward trade offs. Such as putting a boost or weapon under an object that periodically smashes. or B, the predictable hazard. Both, should be avoidable and under no circumstance should you make a hazard that will kill someone without fail. It's cheap and will make people hate your work. In addition to this, make sure your weapons are balanced. No one liked getting smashed in the face with 800 pack clearing rockets. Space out pickups responsibly, and if you build your own weapons, make any pack clearing weapons (especially those with no way to block) at a very low frequency. I hope these things can be used to help anyone looking to make a track! From Modnation with love, keep creating and don't stop learning new ways to make karting fun~

2012-12-13 05:48:00 Author: IvoYaridovich Posts: 88

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There are things I agree with and things I don't agree with. A track's scenery and the gameplay are one in the same. In more ways then one. We have to stare at these big lighted screens regardless, so naturally we aren't going to want eyesores. And likewise no focus on the gameplay and track design can make it just as boring. Sacrificing one for the other is good while learning but the goal should be to make both as important as each. Challenging tracks are a good thing, too much can be too much though so I agree. But at the same time I don't want to feel like I'm driving in a circle, I want depth, something that is more then just a track. I want goals and parts I have to learn. I think the wise thing to do is have harder spots and break-like spots. Otherwise there isn't much to it, in my opinion, in most (but not all) cases. We can somewhat easily mount a number of cameras and customize the controls to perform camera changes with the use of one button, a selector and a little effort in camera placement and testing. I think everything you said should be credited, but not rules that we should abide by but grow from. If something isn't working right, given the time and energy we have everything we need to balance the experience. Well, mostly everything.

2012-12-13 06:37:00 Author: anarchowolf Posts: 194

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Again, these rules are what we went by in Modnation. They are guidelines, and not meant to be followed to the letter. There is wiggle room with all of them, especially since this game has a lot more tools then modnation did. If you want to mess with cameras, logic, and everything else this entire list could be thrown out. This is more for the people who wish to make tracks the way the game lets you since it's very similar to the modnation toolset. Difficulty, has nothing to do with any of these. These are all quality of play guidelines. You can make an extremely challenging track still following these guidelines, and in this games environment, I approve of it. In Modnation, we had game rooms of up to 12 people with a host that selected the track, it was extremely easy to get 12 people on a track and have a good time. In LBP:Karting, you don't have this luxury, and a lot of the time will probably be playing community levels on your own. In modnation, even the easiest tracks were made super difficult by having 12 actual players on it that could be on par with your skill level, especially if they were you friends. To get the same effect in LBP:K, you'll probably have to stick to playing tracks of the skill level you're comfortable with. However, I will note. I made both easy, and difficult tracks in Modnation. The easier tracks I made, ALWAYS, without fail got more downloads and were higher rated then the difficult tracks. The same goes for a lot of creators, and Hot Lap choices (Modnations equivalent to Team Picks) were usually easy tracks to race. I, am speaking for masses and from experience here, not the minority. I love me a difficult track, but if you want popularity and to be known, a little pandering can go a long long ways. And as per the comment about rule 1. Scenery does make a difference, but only if the track is good. If a track is bad, no one will play it regardless of how pretty it is. If the track is good, scenery will in fact make it better, and a good track with 0 scenery is terrible, but it takes far less effort to make a good track better with some scenery, then it would to take a bad track playable for the scenery alone.

2012-12-13 07:22:00 Author: IvoYaridovich Posts: 88

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I absolutely agree with your list. on LBP I've always been a GAMEPLAY first, everything else second player, and these are really good tips - especially as - peoples first impressions of a track will decide whether they play it again... visuals CAN help that.. but really enjoying a race will help even more. I would add one more rule that might be more LBP specific - if you are going to have special rules, unusual modes, or something unexpected in terms of what the player has to achieve - then you MUST inform the player of this in a pregame cutscene. This cutscene should be short and to the point. The cutscene should also be completely skippable (with double x) for those people who play more than once. Dont use those messages that you HAVE to press circle on. Thanks for posting this up. Adi

2012-12-13 07:26:00 Author: TheAdipose Posts: 533

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As a modnation player, I'm still learning most of the other things. I haven't even completely finished a track yet, though I do post Work In Progress versions of all the ones I am working on at the moment. I know you should try to put score and prize bubbles throughout the track to give people more little options for enjoyment, having a pregame little opener to show off sections is a plus, and other things are good too. But this list is what we Modnation Players have learned, and perhaps later I'll be able to make a second one with things this game can do. Right now though, I need to actually focus on getting one of the tracks I'm working on finished. I always did this in Modnation too, continually hopping between 12 different WIPs and never finishing any of them XD When I quit Modnation I had 374 tracks, with only about 60-70 being published and complete before I ripped down what I could due to the community going to pot.

2012-12-13 07:39:00 Author: IvoYaridovich Posts: 88

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I agree with the pre-race cutscenes... I neglected notes in Little Big Space-K, kinda wishing I did that.

2012-12-13 08:00:00 Author: anarchowolf Posts: 194

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Very good list! I always felt there was much to learn from the Modnation community, let's have more of these! To pitch in on the difficulty discussion, I think one underlying theme here is control. Not having control isn't fun, and failing a challenge because control was taken away feels unfair. That's why launching me just before a corner is my biggest peeve in LBPK right now. If you want to make it difficult, challenge me in full control.

2012-12-13 10:02:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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First of all, great write-up! It's nice to hear so much from someone with a Modnation background rather than a LBP background. And thanks for posting the video link! I agree with you for the most part. For me, scenery goes a long way. A course can play badly, and in that case scenery doesn't do much for me, but I still haven't played a course and said "Now that track was amazing!". I feel that as long as the creator does not introduce issues into the track, it falls in the good category, and in that case scenery takes a front sear for me. Take Baby Park from Mario Kart for instance, I feel that someone could copy that concept, have a super simple course, but have it look amazing and it could be a great time! Just because it is ridiculously simple doesn't mean that it can't be great if everything else is very well thought out. But then again, if everyone does that it would get old. What I want to see is more custom creations. I think that authors need to not just depend on story objects but should focus on creating unique objects of their own. This may be leaning more toward the LBP side than the Modnation side, but it is HUGELY important for me, and I believe that in the coming months the levels that will stand out will be the ones that have custom objects throughout the level. Currently, you can make a level and just throw story objects everywhere and it will look fine, but once we all get used to those story objects it will probably start looking lazy and maybe even messy compared to the levels with neat custom designs.

2012-12-13 13:26:00 Author: amazingflyingpoo Posts: 1515

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As another Modnation Veteran, I just want to chime in. First, let me say that IVO is my FAVORITE MNR Tracker, so definitely trust his credentials and listen to what he has to say. I especially would like to stress the importance of his 5th item, Cresting hills and natural jumps need a landing area. I HATE airing into a corner. As far as the difficulty issue - I know it is a hard pill to swallow - but trust us when we say the easiest tracks get the most plays. Maybe the LBP community will be more mature and handle difficult tracks better, but I wouldn't count on it. Think of it like this, as the track creator, the track will feel way easier for you. You will know your track like the back of your hand. So if you find the track difficult, new racers will find the track to be near impossible. Or likewise, a random racer will find your track to be difficult even though it feels easy to you. If as the track creator you hit a wall at a location or fly off the track and die at a location, 95% of new racers will definitely have the same problem. Just watch people race your track if you don't believe me. Great thread Ivo!! I would like to compile a list of guidelines for battle levels, once the community figures them out as well. At the moment, I have no idea what makes a good battle arena.

2012-12-13 15:52:00 Author: Manlius10A Posts: 88

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From a LBP point of view however, easier may get more plays but it doesn't mean it's actually better. I recall going to a forum where someone was quitting Dead Space 2 and throwing a fit because it was "too hard". Which it wasn't. I think that bumps come along with progression. Challenge is tested and then balanced, that can't really be done here without it being public. It is worth mentioning that I may be biased as I dislike Modnation Racers. But ultimately the gift of this game is what can be created. I'm NOT saying anyone is wrong, I'm just saying it is in the nature of art to cross lines. And personally I think this (being a little big planet game) is an art and not just a game, or a simple map editor tool. It's closer to Starcraft's Map editor then it is say, Tony Hawk's map editor. Again I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just that the points can be argued. Of course if you plan on making a series of static, less interactive tracks, (which is all good and well, I enjoy them too) then all of these rules make sense. But you can give super sharp turns and balance the kart out to drive them just fine. The most important thing to remember here is that this is a Little Big Planet installment and there are no rules. Aside from working. You want things to work, but you don't have to settle on a list of "rights and wrongs" because there are none.

2012-12-14 00:00:00 Author: anarchowolf Posts: 194

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Of course if you plan on making a series of static, less interactive tracks, (which is all good and well, I enjoy them too) then all of these rules make sense. But you can give super sharp turns and balance the kart out to drive them just fine. Nowhere in my guidelines did I say you couldn't do that. Not one spot. All of my guidelines lead towards one simple overarching goal: Making the track feel fair. I was also known for making some of the most difficult tracks in Modnation, Manlius can vouch for this as can other Modnation players. But all of them still followed all of these guidelines. People who don't follow these guidelines tended to make tracks that they perceived as difficult, but when put to the test the masses would point out these guidelines, and say that their track currently was unfair. People don't mind making mistakes, but only if they feel as if it was their fault. These guidelines help to make sure that fault can NOT be placed on the tracks build, but on the players themselves. Again, you can follow all of these, and make a very difficult track. With how this games online system works, I encourage it. It's not as easy to get full rooms on community tracks, so you need some sort of challenge. Also, if you plan to change how the karts drive entirely, then this list is moot. This list is for the standard kart track, even with handling tweaks it still applies, but if you change kart gravity and how it actually turns and drifts with advanced logic then you could throw this list right out the window. I just want to see some fairness back in the tracks I play, as a lot of them currently feel like they did at the start of modnation before all the star creators started stepping up and helping out publicly. The big underlying message with all of this, is there is a big difference, between Difficult, and Unfair.

2012-12-14 02:53:00 Author: IvoYaridovich Posts: 88

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There is a huge difference between difficult and unfair. If something is difficult then you get better, if it's unfair then it's frustration. For example, Resonance of Fate is difficult (initially) but Resistance 2 is unfair. The difference being that one is player reliant and the other has little room for personal improvement. Again I want to say I'm not saying anyone is wrong, I am just giving healthy objective insight.

2012-12-14 04:05:00 Author: anarchowolf Posts: 194

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Anarcho, isn't your Steampunk Dreamland track a staff pick?

2012-12-14 04:12:00 Author: Wigriff Posts: 118

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Ivo and everyone thanks for contributing to this useful thread. I will take I learned from my expriences and what has been listed here all useful info! Oh Ivo remember most of your tracks from modnation! My favorite track of your is Solarin Gardens!!!

2012-12-14 04:54:00 Author: Unknown User

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It is yes, BUT to be honest some of the turns are a tad too sharp for less experienced players, so like I said he isn't all wrong or anything like that. But instead of smoothing them out or deleting them I gave them a purpose, and strategy which I chose not to explain because I'm evil like that. Not that I'm complaining, or anything. I mean I'm not trying to argue or anything, I just don't fully agree with a set of rights and wrongs so I'm giving thought out differing opinions so that every track I play isn't a copy and paste of every track I play. Having helpful insight into working structure is NOT a bad thing, but obeying a set of rules to a T just doesn't sound appealing to me. I don't want my disagreements to be confused with revolt or anything like that.

2012-12-14 05:29:00 Author: anarchowolf Posts: 194

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Thanks to all on this thread for the advice and discussion. Everything in moderation including moderation! I'm about to make my second track and these tips are really useful to me. I agree with amazingflyingpoo, we'll be expecting more custom objects soon as more and more levels come out with the same visuals. That should be exciting! I just wish they could allow us to group more objects together, otherwise complex and intricate creations are impossible. Fingers crossed.

2012-12-14 05:41:00 Author: aratiatia Posts: 374

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Having sharp turns doesn't go against any of the guidelines, unless you have the turn banked with a high inside on a hairpin so that the turn can not possibly be made ever. And if the turn can be seen before-hand, then it shouldn't surprise anyone either. The top creators of modnation made thousands of tracks collectively with every one being different enough from eachother to be worth playing, you're not going to get a hundred repeat tracks from following these guidelines, trust me. ^^ While I wrote these guidelines to assist, it is ultimately just that. Guidelines, not actual rules. You don't have to follow them if you don't think they'll let you create anything you'll enjoy. Because at the end of the day, games are for fun, and you should have fun in your own way. In other news, someone from the modnation forums read this and asked why I was being so nice... Feels weird not raging all over >.>

2012-12-14 08:15:00 Author: IvoYaridovich Posts: 88

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It would be silly to rage here anyway. I'm not arguing with you so much as I am placing my opinion as politely as possible. It's a happy place, and children are here and as adults we should be respectful, even in disagreements.

2012-12-14 09:14:00 Author: anarchowolf Posts: 194

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Pretty good guidelines, I pretty much agree with them all (except maybe #1 might be more Modnation focused). I think it all boils down to test driving your own track many many (many) times. If something doesn't feel natural or fun you have to change it. If a part of your track looks dull, you've gotta add stuff. But in the end if you like your track in its entirety and are proud of it, that's a job well done.

2012-12-14 09:23:00 Author: Mooshywooshy Posts: 28

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I place equal consideration to both gameplay and visuals when it comes to designing levels in general. First I have to ensure that the level plays smoothly with few issues. Then I can focus on making it look visually appealing. I have applied that to my two LBPK levels so far and even one of my standalone game projects, which is an arcade-style top-down scrolling shooter inspired by Raiden Fighters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxOHXsniHR0

2012-12-14 17:37:00 Author: JudgeSpear Posts: 122

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I tend to work with both arbitrarily and then do lots of clean up. ADD gets me like that. Spear what software are you using to do that?? I've been dying to get back into making platforming games but I lost my key for Gamemaker years ago and want to dig into 3d arts. With a simpler engine. Zday started using Unity with great praise but, I dunno, money is scarce in my world.

2012-12-15 02:49:00 Author: anarchowolf Posts: 194

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Spear what software are you using to do that?? I've been dying to get back into making platforming games but I lost my key for Gamemaker years ago and want to dig into 3d arts. With a simpler engine. Zday started using Unity with great praise but, I dunno, money is scarce in my world. I used Game Maker 8.0 to make that game. I've been using Game Maker for about 4 years, so I have experience designing games outside of LBP.

2012-12-15 04:02:00 Author: JudgeSpear Posts: 122

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I feel so stupid for not getting a disc copy. But I was young lol

2012-12-15 06:44:00 Author: anarchowolf Posts: 194

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I'm really pleased you posted these guidelines up - I think its valuable having advice from someone who has been making tracks for a long time. Of course its fine to have disagreements about them - and at the end of the day - these are all personal creations - but your points are useful as most of us here havent made tracks before. For those above who have disagreed - thats fine and you are entitled to your view - but remember you may be then ignoring advice will help your tracks be more accessible to the majority of lbp players. I've quit tracks midlap that have broken some of the rules above - because racing in them simply isn't fun. Certainly if I was reviewing a track, and it broke some of these suggestions - they would be some of the things I would pick up on and would stop me liking/hearting a track. Which modnation forums do you frequent?

2012-12-15 17:16:00 Author: TheAdipose Posts: 533

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I am still learning how to make well-balanced tracks in LBPK. I have experimented a little in the Mod Nation Racers demo, since I've always wanted to make my own kart racer racetrack. Outside of LBPK, I have a lot of experience in level designing; I've designed levels for arcade scrolling shooters (in the Xeno Fighters R video I posted earlier in this topic) and 2D platformers. I aim to get more proficient at making race tracks, and general guideline like this help me avoid common pitfalls. I now realize not everyone likes tight or hairpin turns everywhere, especially taking into consideration there is a significant aerial aspect with LBPK. Even in my two levels that were team picked, I still find problems in them, especially my first one, and will continue to update them as people find issues with them. All the constructive criticism I get only serves to make me a better LBPK creator. I very much appreciate it!

2012-12-15 17:48:00 Author: JudgeSpear Posts: 122

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I mostly stuck to the main Modnation forums here: http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/ModNation-Racers/ct-p/bUS_games_ModNation There were some community forums for it too, but none of them really lasted long regrettably, and there was nothing like LBP.me to help with the sharing process. My sincerest hope is that this game is supported better then Modnation was. Also, thanks for the kind words Adipose, perhaps I'll have something for you to review by the end of the weekend. XD

2012-12-15 18:45:00 Author: IvoYaridovich Posts: 88

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