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To the Atheists (This is not meant to be offensive)

Archive: 26 posts

I have a few philosophical statements that you may want to try to contradict?

If you believe things can be created:

If something is created, then it exists.
If you exist, therefore you are created.

If something is created, then there must be a creator.
If you were created, you must have been created by a creator.



If you don't believe things can be created and there is no truth or reality:

If there is no truth, then that statement is not true.
If there is no reality, then that statement is not real.

If nothing was created, where did it come from?



I want to see what your atheist phylosophy is in response to these statements.		2012-10-08 03:23:00

Author:
unc92sax
Posts: 928

The part near the end kinda had me confused. But as for the rest of it...

If there is enough energy, you can create matter, can't you? I heard somewhere that if you detonated all the nukes in the world 1000 times, you'd have enough energy to create a peanut sized... thingy.

So yeah. That's my answer. I'm not really expecting anyone to agree with me, but... 		2012-10-08 03:30:00

Author:
Kaboosh99
Posts: 359

If something is created, then it exists.
If you exist, therefore you are created.

Logical Fallacy. Being created implies it exists, yes. But that does not mean existence means you were created.

If p implies q, that does not mean q implies p

Your entire "argument" rests on the assumption that everything MUST have been created. That is logic that Atheists do not necessarily abide by. What if not everything was created? Then, your argument falters.

Considering that your argument is that everything in existence must have been created...

If God exists, then who created God?		2012-10-08 03:41:00

Author:
RockSauron
Posts: 10882

Every design had a designer.
The universe has highly complex design.
Therefore, the universe has a designer.

I'll get back to your question, RockSauron.		2012-10-08 03:50:00

Author:
unc92sax
Posts: 928

Every design had a designer.
The universe has highly complex design.
Therefore, the universe has a designer.

I'll get back to your question, RockSauron.

Once again, your logic is circular, and there is no point arguing with you as you will merely continue to assert that everything must have been designed in order to support your hypothesis.. As such, I exit this debate.		2012-10-08 03:52:00

Author:
RockSauron
Posts: 10882

The answer to your question:

God created all time and space. If he created time and space, he doesn't have to exist within a certain time and space. He exists outside of time and space, therefore he needs no beginning. Beginnings exist within time and space, but God is outside of time and space, because he created it. This also agrees with Einstein's Theory of Relativity.		2012-10-08 04:04:00

Author:
unc92sax
Posts: 928

... So basically, your argument is that everything must have been created, except god because he created everything.

...

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...		2012-10-08 04:05:00

Author:
RockSauron
Posts: 10882

... So basically, your argument is that everything must have been created, except god because he created everything.

...

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...Right. But no man can fully understand how God was not created. Man is bound by space and time, so we can not think of a life without a beginning or an end. But God is outside of space and time, therefore he has no beginning and no end. He fully understands himself, and he understands space and time because he made it.

If the universe came from nothing, where did that nothingness come from? How can nothing create something?		2012-10-08 04:09:00

Author:
unc92sax
Posts: 928

Right. But no man can fully understand how God was not created. Man is bound by space and time, so we can not think of a life without a beginning or an end. But God is outside of space and time, therefore he has no beginning and no end. He fully understands himself, and he understands space and time because he made it.

So, once again, you say that God is special and can exist without being created, but atheists are wrong because they believe things exist without being created?

... Brilliant.		2012-10-08 04:13:00

Author:
RockSauron
Posts: 10882

So, once again, you say that God is special and can exist without being created, but atheists are wrong because they believe things exist without being created?

... Brilliant.
You are avoiding my question because you can't answer it. How does a complex universe with living beings come out of nothing?

Oh yeh. And this philosophy is based off of EINSTEIN's theory. Are you calling Einstein stupid?		2012-10-08 04:16:00

Author:
unc92sax
Posts: 928

You are avoiding my question because you can't answer it. How does a complex universe with living beings come out of nothing?

Oh yeh. And this philosophy is based off of EINSTEIN's theory. Are you calling Einstein stupid?

You're the one not answering his question. Why can god exist out of the boundaries of space and time, but not the universe itself? Why must everything have a creator except the creator himself? Why can't we just cut out the middle man?

You say no man can fully understand how God was created. That's not an answer, it's one big cop-out. If the circumstances of his existance can't be understood by the human mind, how are you so sure he does exist? And please don't say "faith". Knowledge isn't based on faith, it's based on observable truths.

Yes, life is extremely complex. That isn't proof that it must've been created though. Why can't nature be complex? Why can't life create itself and evolve through the principles of abiogenesis and natural selection?

By the way, many christians seem to think Albert Einstein was a christian or jew and count that as an argument against atheism. They're mistaken. Einstein wasn't an atheist, but he called himself an agnostic. In his opinion, the belief in a personal god is childish.		2012-10-08 06:42:00

Author:
SnipySev
Posts: 2452

You are avoiding my question because you can't answer it. How does a complex universe with living beings come out of nothing?


If there is enough energy, you can create matter, can't you? I heard somewhere that if you detonated all the nukes in the world 1000 times, you'd have enough energy to create a peanut sized... thingy.

Just thought I'd point that out. 		2012-10-08 10:24:00

Author:
Kaboosh99
Posts: 359

You can't answer every unexplained mystery of the universe with "Yep... God did it".

This thread is a bit silly and pointless, IMO.
Why stop at athiests, btw? Here are some more threads you can create:

-To the Agnostics (This is not meant to be offensive)
-To the Muslims (This is not meant to be offensive)
-To the Buddhists (This is not meant to be offensive)
-To the Hindus (This is not meant to be offensive)

.... I think you get the point.		2012-10-08 10:42:00

Author:
Ali_Star
Posts: 4085

First off, you can't understand God because he is an infinte being. We are finite beings.
Some of you are making "points" in your statements. Do points even exist if nothing started a point?

And yes, I can make arguements against other beliefs, and I will.		2012-10-08 12:02:00

Author:
unc92sax
Posts: 928

Per the site rules:

9. Heavily opinionated content (such as religion and politics) will be watched over a bit more. Calm, reasoned debate is completely allowed. As long as you are respectful of others' opinions, you are free to express your own.


https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=21530-Rules-amp-Consequences

If you choose to post in this thread please keep this in mind.




You can't answer every unexplained mystery of the universe with "Yep... God did it".

Why stop at athiests, btw? Here are some more threads you can create:

-To the Agnostics (This is not meant to be offensive)
-To the Muslims (This is not meant to be offensive)
-To the Buddhists (This is not meant to be offensive)
-To the Hindus (This is not meant to be offensive)

.... I think you get the point.

Let's not create these.... one is plenty but I completely see your point Ali_Star. To be frank if anyone wants to have a religious/philisophical debate there are other/better/more appropriate places on the internet to engage in one.		2012-10-08 12:51:00

Author:
Morgana25
Posts: 5983

unc92sax, did God create Dinosaurs?2012-10-08 12:52:00

Author:
Ali_Star
Posts: 4085

Did god create the universe or is it just another deity invented by humans to fill in the blanks on things we don't understand.2012-10-08 12:59:00

Author:
Rabid-Coot
Posts: 6728

If God exists, then who created God?

You say no man can fully understand how God was created. That's not an answer, it's one big cop-out. If the circumstances of his existance can't be understood by the human mind, how are you so sure he does exist? And please don't say "faith".
Generally God is distinct from the One as nous and logos. The creator god in particular would be the most lowly and barbarous given its proximity to the physical universe. It's an interesting topic for sure.


unc92sax, did God create Dinosaurs?
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/Corporeal/raptor_jesus.jpg		2012-10-08 13:05:00

Author:
Ayneh
Posts: 2454

Any thread that is titled 'To the Athiests (This is not meant to be offensive)' will probably cause offense and start arguments. Religious debates aren't the best subject matter for forums...2012-10-08 14:42:00

Author:
Unknown User

Right. But no man can fully understand how God was not created. Man is bound by space and time, so we can not think of a life without a beginning or an end. But God is outside of space and time, therefore he has no beginning and no end. He fully understands himself, and he understands space and time because he made it.

If the universe came from nothing, where did that nothingness come from? How can nothing create something?

Answers to all your questions about nothingness and infinity you can find in Stephen Hawking's books. But you need time and patience to understand it all.		2012-10-08 14:56:00

Author:
goranilic
Posts: 332

Any thread that is titled 'To the Athiests (This is not meant to be offensive)' will probably cause offense and start arguments. Religious debates aren't the best subject matter for forums...

For some forums they can be... but not for others. I don't think this is a forum for such a debate, and I don't think the OP started this debate in a good fashion. The way he/she put it across seems a bit forceful in a way, IMO.		2012-10-08 15:25:00

Author:
Ali_Star
Posts: 4085

You are avoiding my question because you can't answer it. How does a complex universe with living beings come out of nothing?

Oh yeh. And this philosophy is based off of EINSTEIN's theory. Are you calling Einstein stupid?

No, I am avoiding your questiom because answering your question would have you essentially say "NU UH"

Once more, you say Atheists are wrong because they believe something came out of nothing. Then, you say God came out of nothing because he's special.

Well, the universe is special. Therefore, the universe came out of nothing.

And seriously? Pulling the Einstein card? All you said is that is exists inside Einstein's Theory of relativity, and did not say anything to back that up. Actually, that's pretty common in your posts O-o

Anyway... I WOULD ask how Einstein was involved and where you pulled his name from, but judging by your other posts, you'd merely say "He is because I'm right". That's essentially your argument.

So, I repeat: your entire "argument" is that the universe exists inside Time and Space, and therefore must have a creator. But God exists outside time and space, and therefore does not need a creator. Why, then, can the universe not exists outside of Time and Space too?

I'm not even concerned with your belief in God. I'm merely flabbergasted as you trying to discredit Atheism with an argument, and then saying the argument doesn't apply to your own beliefs because of magic.		2012-10-08 16:17:00

Author:
RockSauron
Posts: 10882

If something is created, then there must be a creator.
If you were created, you must have been created by a creator.

Yes, but the creator does not have to be some almighty omnipresent being. The "creator" could be an event, i.e. the big bang.

I honestly don't understand how people could still believe in creation or whatever. Religion is just a load of stories and ideas that people came up with thousands of years ago to try to explain the mysteries of the universe. Which is fair enough, that's what science is - a theory is devised and then proved or disproved. Thousands of years ago, before anyone knew about background radiation and red shift and all that fun stuff, someone came up with a theory that the universe was created by some kind of god. And no one knew any better so people accepted it and it spread. People all over the world had similar ideas. Over time these ideas developed, and that's where we get the bible and qur'an and everything.
Then, as technology became more advanced, new theories emerged, such as evolution and the big bang, research was carried out, and the evidence came pouring in, giving us no significant reason to doubt their validity.

tl;dr Religion is stories that were made up to explain the origins of the universe before we had the technology to learn otherwise		2012-10-08 16:51:00

Author:
ARD
Posts: 4291

God is like cake.
The cake is a lie.
http://ih3.redbubble.net/image.12527189.8994/sticker,375x360.u2.png		2012-10-08 16:52:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

First off, you can't understand God because he is an infinte being. We are finite beings.
Some of you are making "points" in your statements. Do points even exist if nothing started a point?

And yes, I can make arguements against other beliefs, and I will.

You're free to do so. And if your arguments' logic is flawed, we are free to point it out.

You say your god is beyond human understanding, yet here you are claiming to know his nature and the circumstances of his existance.



If something is created, then it exists.
If you exist, therefore you are created.

If something is created, then there must be a creator.
If you were created, you must have been created by a creator.


This is a logical fallacy called false cause. Next time you start a philosophical debate, avoid any of these (http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/). It won't validate your argument, but at least it'll provide a more challenging debate.		2012-10-08 17:00:00

Author:
SnipySev
Posts: 2452

Although this discussion has been civil and to the point (thanks everyone for keeping it polite), these kinds of threads always turn nasty. So, before we get there, I'm locking this one up.

If you want to continue the discussion I'd suggest creating a private group. 		2012-10-08 17:17:00

Author:
Taffey
Posts: 3187


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