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Spaff talks about LBP's sharing systems

Archive: 71 posts

Gamasutra's put up an article where James Spafford talks about the evolution of sharing in LBP and LBP2: http://gamasutra.com/view/news/173147/Media_Molecule_finds_success_and_failure_alike_in_ Little_Big_Planets_sharing_systems.php

As for the “cool levels” problem, created by a robot, “We left it there, which I really really wish we hadn't,” he says. “We thought we'd be able to tweak the cool levels system a lot easier. We didn't and we weren't able to.”

Interesting stuff. And more fuel for the next Cool Pages discussion.

2012-06-28 11:13:00

Author:
Rogar

Posts: 2284

I belive list are good alternative for cool pages kind of same as mmpicks, but to make them actully work is to implement them in to the game, i know it's hard with LBP2, but at least in LBP Vita (not sure if it's too late), Karting and next games they should try to implement it

2012-06-28 14:48:00

Author:
Shadowriver

Posts: 3991

Maybe you should republish this post a few hundred times to draw some attention to it

2012-06-28 15:35:00

Author:
BasketSnake

Posts: 2391

So the cool pages are decided by a "robot". I know they are automatic, but it's automatically picking empty levels and bomb survivals.

2012-06-28 15:45:00

Author:
Apple2012

Posts: 1408

I think Spaff's cool pages discussion pretty much sums up what I have been saying all along... No matter what you do to fix them, someone will figure it out and exploit them. ...so ignore them!

2012-06-28 16:16:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

I think Spaff's cool pages discussion pretty much sums up what I have been saying all along... No matter what you do to fix them, someone will figure it out and exploit them. ...so ignore them!

But it does not change fact that in game is still main exposed way to discover levels aside of mmpicks, MM knows that and thats why they still didn't remove it if it so useless. I'm not againts removing cool pages, but there need to be some really good alternative if so.

Besides YouTube which is more serious business (which means exloiting gives it gives more then exloiting on LBP) does not have such problems, there popular list does not look bad, so solution is out there, it just need to be find it.

You say F4F is good solution.... then why not implement this in to the game?

rewording for rated feedback? do best of LBP really need to stay underground?

2012-06-28 17:03:00

Author:
Shadowriver

Posts: 3991

I fail to understand why they simply overlooked these expected results. Obviously having one person go through levels to decide if they are allowed on the "Holy MM List Of Awesome" would be a terrible idea. You at least need a team.

What they SHOULD have done was tuned into this website and realized that all the REAL players of LBP that wanted to play fun levels just went through the spotlighted page on LBPC. I found hundreds upon hundreds of great levels to play thanks to the spotlight team. Once you start to learn who the good creators are, you heart them, and now you're getting new levels back and forth between these creators almost every week.

So Media Molecule, take the hint, hand the community management over to people who actually have time to do it, our LBPC staff. They've been running this show for 2.5 years now (i think). Spaff, StevenI, and Syroc by themselves aint gonna cut it.

If you want to keep Mm Picks, have StevenI pick from the list of spotlighted levels! That way they don't have to go through all the garbage levels and just focus on the best of the best and pick..the better of the best...wait...what?

2012-06-28 17:24:00

Author:
Nick930930

Posts: 878

rewording for rated feedback? do best of LBP really need to stay underground?

If you are speaking totally in game, you still have your hearted creators hearted level lists which is how I've found tons of great levels and creators to add to my hearted list. I also have used their activity via LBP.me in queuing up some really great levels outside the game. There is also the text search that can help you find stuff you may have not found before since you have a nice list that helps you make a decision. I think the tools are there, you have to use them effectively.

I personally think that they leave it so the kiddies have a place to play and occupy their time. Let them knock themselves out trying to get there... They took a stab at fixing them that may have helped for a time, but I just think it best to leave it alone unless they have some great way to truly fix it. ...that is IF it is really even worth it and from what Spaff was saying, it seems they are leaving it alone, possibly the reason that I suggest.

Like one way to get rid of mosquitoes etc and such when camping is spray tons of chemicals on you to make you less tasty to them. Another way is to toss a big piece of meat away from your campsite giving the nasty bugs something else to gnaw on. lol I tend to do both..

..in other words the cool pages are great for some to clamor over and try to move up on that list. I try to stay away from it as most that are into that seem to be the ones that leave nasty messages, are socially inept, and are more likely to behave badly. (like getting in shouting matches with trolls, thus becoming trolls themselves. or others that even when they are confronted with an amazing level, hate it and leave nasty messages etc..)

If you have a way to fix cool pages... then by all means suggest it to Mm. Until then, I just find it useless to worry about them.

As far as F4F, that is a way this site helps others get great feedback. If there was a way to enable it in game.. then fine, but again.. the only way to make it really work is by playing OTHER F4F levels and leaving great feedback, then suggest which of your levels to have them honor their F4F commitment. You can't just check a box regardless where it is, then sit and wait for something to happen.

2012-06-28 18:48:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

So Media Molecule, take the hint, hand the community management over to people who actually have time to do it, our LBPC staff. They've been running this show for 2.5 years now (i think). Spaff, StevenI, and Syroc by themselves aint gonna cut it.

Totally agree! I'm pretty sure the LBPC staff would be more than willing to run the cool pages...and for free! It wouldn't be that hard to implement, just have it that whenever any of the LBPC staff heart a level it's automatically put up on the cool pages. We'd probably have to get rid of the community spotlight but at least this way we'd get plenty of cool new levels everyday.

2012-06-28 19:38:00

Author:
CYBERSNAKE

Posts: 280

So Media Molecule, take the hint, hand the community management over to people who actually have time to do it, our LBPC staff. They've been running this show for 2.5 years now (i think). Spaff, StevenI, and Syroc by themselves aint gonna cut it.

Steven and Syroc have done so much for this community over the years, they were employed for their close relationship to the players and the game has only changed for the better since their employment. Spaff work on littlebig-planetoid also directed the community in a better direction with the most up to date news, speculations and ideas (at the time of it's operation). Also... wasn't Tom a community curator? Everyone seems to forget about Tom =/. There was a time when all the Mm staff did what central crews do now, you can see these archived on their website, but they are a developer and new games will always come first... the key example being working on lbp2 quite early into lbp's life cycle.

Secondly, your plea would be better delivered to Sony since Mm is on their LBP "break" and working on new things, sad truth is... it is just not cost effective for them to waste development time changing those pages at this stage. Maybe the developer doing lbp3 (here's hoping) will have some new ideas (and potentially hardware) for level publicity.

Anyway, surely all the pages need is a custom personalised filter which stores key words which would be ignore in level searches... more or less like the current search system but with the ability for multiple entries and always enabled.

Anyway, that was a mouthfull... quess I'll go back and hide under my rock XD

2012-06-28 20:09:00

Author:
ForgottenEnigma

Posts: 1414

For what it's worth.... My opinion of cool levels....

I think it works well as a robot. More popular levels make it to the top. Levels get plays.

But.... just as with any "playground", you need some rules. If a bully comes into the playground and starts bullying other kids - make them sit out for a bit. Any time someone can get away with something they will try.

Same with spamming copied levels onto cool levels. If someone is doing this, the "robot" should have a way to control it. Or... a human flips a switch that prevents a player's levels from appearing in cool levels if they are obviously abusing the system.

These are the things that should be thought about for LBP Vita. If people can't be courteous on their own, they need to be controlled. If the "robot" works well if people follow certain rules, make them follow the rules.

2012-06-28 20:10:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Totally agree! I'm pretty sure the LBPC staff would be more than willing to run the cool pages...and for free!

LOL!! Nice of you to volunteer their time! They have a hard enough time keeping up with all the new levels that show up in the Level Showcase. How on earth are they to keep up with everything that is published in LBP?

..or are you saying ONLY what they heart goes to the cool pages? That doesn't leave much room for levels they may not ever encounter that might be more than good enough. ..and another thing, are we saying that the cool pages should be held to the same standards as the LBPC Community Spotlights?

2012-06-28 20:13:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

well I've been trying to promote it here:

https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=71554-Make-Those-Lists-People!

2012-06-28 20:43:00

Author:
GribbleGrunger

Posts: 3910

2012-06-28 20:46:00

Author:
julesyjules

Posts: 1156

But it would be fun to watch - 'today I saw on my LBP.me feed that Shropshirelass played 748 levels'.

HOKEY SMOKES!! We need to donate a controller to her. That one must be about worn out by now!!!

2012-06-28 21:11:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

LOL!! Nice of you to volunteer their time! They have a hard enough time keeping up with all the new levels that show up in the Level Showcase. How on earth are they to keep up with everything that is published in LBP?

..or are you saying ONLY what they heart goes to the cool pages? That doesn't leave much room for levels they may not ever encounter that might be more than good enough. ..and another thing, are we saying that the cool pages should be held to the same standards as the LBPC Community Spotlights?

I just used the LBPC crew as an example, we could have a bunch of volunteers (I wouldn't mind doing it) who play LBP a lot and are trusted to find great levels for the community to play. Yeah and they'll probably miss out on a few good levels but it's much better to miss a few than to stick with the current cool pages which misses out on many good levels and shows terrible ones.

2012-06-28 21:26:00

Author:
CYBERSNAKE

Posts: 280

I just used the LBPC crew as an example, we could have a bunch of volunteers (I wouldn't mind doing it) who play LBP a lot and are trusted to find great levels for the community to play. Yeah and they'll probably miss out on a few good levels but it's much better to miss a few than to stick with the current cool pages which misses out on many good levels and shows terrible ones.

Well.. I see your point and agree it would be much better than the robot from heck, but I just don't think it would be sustainable. There are a still a ton of levels put out every day and would hate to hear the outcries of favoritism, unfairness, and missed levels shot at this proposed team. ...even if they did a great job of it!!

2012-06-28 22:14:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

Also... wasn't Tom a community curator?
Yes, but I think he's primarily the website developer and designer, he made littlebigplanet.com and lbp.me, as well as other LBP websites.

2012-06-28 22:25:00

Author:
warlord_evil

Posts: 4193

I would be willing to volunteer my time finding real cool levels,How would i go about doing somthing like that?I't could clean up the cool page's.I can't stand to even look at it now.

2012-06-28 22:58:00

Author:
Lbphart3

Posts: 813

Why don't they add in something that lets us block key words and creators from being seen. So if I block Latin I never see his levels. If I block Mortal Kombat I never see one of those levels.

2012-06-28 22:59:00

Author:
Halfire

Posts: 132

What they SHOULD have done was tuned into this website and realized that all the REAL players of LBP that wanted to play fun levels just went through the spotlighted page on LBPC.

I think that all those kids who love their bomb survivals, 50 jumps, and free costume type of levels ARE the real players. Here at lbpcentral we tend to take an elitist attitude and put ourselves on an intellectual pedestal above the "casual" players, while the reality of the situation is that we forum regulars who are so precious about our artistic integrity are actually in the minority. Most kids don't care about arty visuals, complex logic, or whether a level has been copied. They just want to get their kicks riding rocket cheetahs and killing Justin Bieber.

It would make no business sense for Mm to alienate their majority demographic, so they should try to keep the rocket cheetah kids happy too if they are planning major changes to the games sharing systems. At the end of the day, those kids have as much right as anyone else who bought the game to play/create/share in the way that they want to and it's not for us to decide that their way of playing is less valid or less acceptable than ours just because we think it sucks.

We "serious" players have lbpcentral monthly spotlights and we have MM picks....we have plenty of resources to find and share the kind of levels we like to play and create...so why can't we just leave the casual kids in peace and let them have their stupid cool pages?

2012-06-28 23:14:00

Author:
Ungreth

Posts: 2130

2012-06-28 23:49:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

But lol ain't that what the lucky dip is for?Theres nothing cool about bombs or rocket cheetahs or the 50 jumps.We may have Mm picks and we may have the monthly spotlights..But the cool pages need to be cleaned up..I loved going there and playing levels now...Now there all the same.

2012-06-29 00:20:00

Author:
Lbphart3

Posts: 813

Well said!! What I have been saying, but a totally fresh perspective. Bravo!!

I just wish the casual kids would stay away from my levels, that's all. It annoys the hell out of me when some kid has spent all day playing levels with names like Hotel Bomb Shark Survival and PRIZES!!!, then he somehow finds Tenement among the millions of levels of levels ever published and feels compelled to leave the comment "dum" because his puny mind can't comprehend it. My levels were never meant for idiot kids and I don't want them being played by idiot kids either, so I'm praying that the huge pile of **** known as cool pages where these irritating little flies like to congregate never gets removed. Take away their cool pages and they'll come crawling like termites over our precious levels and leaving their typically ignorant, semi-literate comments on our beloved creations..."why u no give prizes? u suk!"

At the moment we have a divided community, and that's a good thing. Let's keep it divided.

2012-06-29 00:41:00

Author:
Ungreth

Posts: 2130

We "serious" players have lbpcentral monthly spotlights and we have MM picks....we have plenty of resources to find and share the kind of levels we like to play and create...so why can't we just leave the casual kids in peace and let them have their stupid cool pages?

I agree to a certain degree, Ungreth. Somehow though, we have to at least 'educate' those spotty teenagers and encourage them to look a little deeper into the community. I'm not taking an elitist position here, 'educate' just seems the only way of summing it up. Standards ARE important in the long run and we have to be very careful that standards grow and not shrink. perhaps part of the problem is semantic... 'cool' isn't exactly a word associated with depth, it's more representative of the 'fame' culture that pervades our societies at the moment, and it's a word that conjures thoughts of youth and, dare I say it, shallowness.

Once you start catering to the common denominator, standards tend to drop. we see it in films, on TV, music and anything else that can be sparkly, saccharine and 'cool'. So, instead of us complaining about the cool pages, we should be more proactive in promoting quality ourselves.

2012-06-29 00:49:00

Author:
GribbleGrunger

Posts: 3910

I agree to a certain degree, Ungreth. Somehow though, we have to at least 'educate' those spotty teenagers and encourage them to look a little deeper into the community. I'm not taking an elitist position here, 'educate' just seems the only way of summing it up. Standards ARE important in the long run and we have to be very careful that standards grow and not shrink. perhaps part of the problem is semantic... 'cool' isn't exactly a word associated with depth, it's more representative of the 'fame' culture that pervades our societies at the moment, and it's a word that conjures thoughts of youth and, dare I say it, shallowness.

Once you start catering to the common denominator, standards tend to drop. we see it in films, on TV, music and anything else that can be sparkly, saccharine and 'cool'. So, instead of us complaining about the cool pages, we should be more proactive in promoting quality ourselves.

Not everybody wants their entertainment to have artistic or intellectual merit though. Pop culture is popular because it's casual and unchallenging, a quick and easy fix, and that's what the majority of people want. I could walk into any disco, hold a gun to the DJs head and force him to play my Woven Hand records, but the revellers aren't gonna just stop and think "hey, wait a minute...this sounds so much better than Lady Gaga!". I would probably just get a bottle smashed on my head by a crowd of people who's idea of culture is taking a pee in the road on their way to the liquor store.

Monkeys like bananas. Don't try giving them duck liver custard with lemongrass glaze and sauteed truffles.

2012-06-29 01:11:00

Author:
Ungreth

Posts: 2130

Not everybody wants their entertainment to have artistic or intellectual merit though. Pop culture is popular because it's casual and unchallenging, a quick and easy fix, and that's what the majority of people want. I could walk into any disco, hold a gun to the DJs head and force him to play my Woven Hand records, but the revellers aren't gonna just stop and think "hey, wait a minute...this sounds so much better than Lady Gaga!". I would probably just get a bottle smashed on my head by a crowd of people who's idea of culture is taking a pee in the road on their way to the liquor store.

Monkeys like bananas. Don't try giving them duck liver custard with lemongrass glaze and sauteed truffles.

lol. I wasn't suggesting we inseminate them but a little cross pollination couldn't hurt...

2012-06-29 02:01:00

Author:
GribbleGrunger

Posts: 3910

CCubbage/Ungreth have it right...the cool level bot is doing the job, it just needs a few tweaks.

People get it into their heads that cool levels are something they were never intended to be and want to change them to fit that view.

A bot can keep up with the volume of levels, even the most diligent and dedicated army of humans can only add to a static list of levels. Sure the community lists like the LBPC spotlight could be more prominent in-game instead of just a news mention of a hub level, and player list from lbp.me more visible in-game as well. But that is no reason to change cool levels to just another static list.

No single list is ever going to satisfy all groups of players, stop thinking it can and stop trying to dictate what other people should be playing for fun...

2012-06-29 02:11:00

Author:
fullofwin

Posts: 1214

If you want to keep Mm Picks, have StevenI pick from the list of spotlighted levels! That way they don't have to go through all the garbage levels and just focus on the best of the best and pick..the better of the best...wait...what?

So you would like to automatically disqualify any creators who are not well-known on this site and others like it. That's not a very good idea, considering all of the undiscovered talent that exists.

2012-06-29 03:51:00

Author:
synchronizer

Posts: 287

So you would like to automatically disqualify any creators who are not well-known on this site and others like it. That's not a very good idea, considering all of the undiscovered talent that exists.

Sounds like it,Mabe he was being sarcastic lol?

2012-06-29 04:49:00

Author:
Lbphart3

Posts: 813

Monkeys like bananas. Don't try giving them duck liver custard with lemongrass glaze and sauteed truffles.
Ha. That is the best quote about monkeys I have ever read.

As for the article.
Yeah, duh. But they couldn't see those problems coming?
For example the rating, the default should be skip, with an option to rate. How is that not common sense?

2012-06-29 05:44:00

Author:
midnight_heist

Posts: 2513

How is that not common sense?

because well you know.
http://makefun.cn/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/monkey_banana.jpg

2012-06-29 07:23:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz

Posts: 4261

because those bomb survival the kids adore are gleaming with positive reviews.. i don't understand why some people are replying to this thread when they hardly play this game and downplay the problem, you just don't understand how wide spread this problem is so gtfo.

this just proves Mm has some ability to tweak the system but chooses not to.

2012-06-29 18:27:00

Author:
PPp_Killer

Posts: 449

Let's endeavor to keep things civil...yes?

I've logged hundreds of hours on this franchise since getting LBP1 at launch. Still, I could probably count the number of hours spent playing levels on the cool pages on one hand.

Just because I personally don't think cool levels are "cool" or were ever a viable method for finding quality levels, doesn't mean I discount that fact that others clearly like them as-is and enjoying playing them.

I'm not sure what problem the anti-cool-levelers are trying to solve. Do you have trouble finding good levels to play? If so you aren't using the tools that have already been provided. Are you disappointed that your hard work isn't getting hundreds of plays...and do you think if only cool levels were "fixed" you'd get the plays and renown you feel is deserved? If that?s the case it's pretty hypocritical to malign the gaming preferences of the "kiddies" having fun with cool levels...but then want to rely on them for big play totals on your own levels.

There's another thread asking for opinions on when you think LBP will die out...I think it's when the "kiddies" tire of it...so let them have their fun.

2012-06-29 19:05:00

Author:
fullofwin

Posts: 1214

A minority of "enlightened" intellectuals attempting to impose their will upon the vulgar common masses...

New Little Big World Order?

2012-06-29 19:30:00

Author:
Ungreth

Posts: 2130

A minority of "enlightened" intellectuals attemting to impose their will upon the vulgar common masses...

New Little Big World Order?

Shhhh! That's supposed to be a secret!

2012-06-29 19:47:00

Author:
fullofwin

Posts: 1214

I'm not sure what problem the anti-cool-levelers are trying to solve. Do you have trouble finding good levels to play? If so you aren't using the tools that have already been provided. Are you disappointed that your hard work isn't getting hundreds of plays...and do you think if only cool levels were "fixed" you'd get the plays and renown you feel is deserved? If that’s the case it's pretty hypocritical to malign the gaming preferences of the "kiddies" having fun with cool levels...but then want to rely on them for big play totals on your own levels.

Our problem with the cool levels is that the majority of the levels on there are mostly just copies getting more plays than the actual good levels in LBP. I can't believe this doesn't anger more of you, it'd be like if I drew a lame stick-man figure version of the Mona Lisa and received loads of money when there are plenty of much better artists out there that deserve the fortune and fame.

2012-06-29 19:59:00

Author:
CYBERSNAKE

Posts: 280

A minority of "enlightened" intellectuals attemting to impose their will upon the vulgar common masses...

New Little Big World Order?

Don't get O'reilly involved

Our problem with the cool levels is that the majority of the levels on there are mostly just copies getting more plays than the actual good levels in LBP. I can't believe this doesn't anger more of you, it'd be like if I drew a lame stick-man figure version of the Mona Lisa and received loads of money when there are plenty of much better artists out there that deserve the fortune and fame.

does it REALLY 'anger' you though? That's such a powerful word for something so inconsequential. I have never struggled to find great levels or new creators (EVEN using the 'cool' pages). injustice is something we should fight for, angst is something we learn to overcome

2012-06-29 20:00:00

Author:
GribbleGrunger

Posts: 3910

Our problem with the cool levels is that the majority of the levels on there are mostly just copies getting more plays than the actual good levels in LBP. I can't believe this doesn't anger more of you, it'd be like if I drew a lame stick-man figure version of the Mona Lisa and received loads of money when there are plenty of much better artists out there that deserve the fortune and fame.

Read CCubbage's post again...the bot should be tweaked to prevent abuses...the bot doesn't need to be eliminated. Of course it doesn't anger me at all because as I already stated I spend zero time looking at cool pages. Fixing the bot won't magically garner those good levels more plays...and again...it's the kiddies you want playing your levels, really?

Your art analogy doesn?t hold up?I don't like cubism, I think it's crap. Does that mean I have the right to impose my will on others and prevent them from enjoying it?

2012-06-29 20:12:00

Author:
fullofwin

Posts: 1214

I thought my idea was good we could just block off stuff we don't want to see. If you don't want to see Latin's name on the cool pages 12 times you would be able to block him so that you never see anything hes created. Same with blocking words I could block the words Mortal Kombat and Bomb Survival so I don't have to see those levels anymore. I could see some flaws but it would be better than what we have now.

2012-06-30 16:46:00

Author:
Halfire

Posts: 132

I'm now okay with copying. Maybe the EULA should be revised, which won't forbid copying and republishing levels, but will forbid publishing bomb survivals, shark survivals, Mortal Kombat, and zombie survivals.

2012-06-30 19:07:00

Author:
Apple2012

Posts: 1408

I hope people realise that complaining constantly about things like the cool pages is just as infuriating as the complaint itself. It's actually getting boring to be honest. yes, I could stay out of the threads. The problem is, even if I do I know that the smell of pointless negativity is pervading the forum I love

There is a difference between discussing and complaining that some people just seem to misunderstand. Just see the funny side for goodness sake or you'll end up convincing yourself that it's much worse than it is and you'll spread those feeling to others.

2012-06-30 19:18:00

Author:
GribbleGrunger

Posts: 3910

I think that all those kids who love their bomb survivals, 50 jumps, and free costume type of levels ARE the real players. Here at lbpcentral we tend to take an elitist attitude and put ourselves on an intellectual pedestal above the "casual" players, while the reality of the situation is that we forum regulars who are so precious about our artistic integrity are actually in the minority. Most kids don't care about arty visuals, complex logic, or whether a level has been copied. They just want to get their kicks riding rocket cheetahs and killing Justin Bieber.

It would make no business sense for Mm to alienate their majority demographic, so they should try to keep the rocket cheetah kids happy too if they are planning major changes to the games sharing systems. At the end of the day, those kids have as much right as anyone else who bought the game to play/create/share in the way that they want to and it's not for us to decide that their way of playing is less valid or less acceptable than ours just because we think it sucks.

We "serious" players have lbpcentral monthly spotlights and we have MM picks....we have plenty of resources to find and share the kind of levels we like to play and create...so why can't we just leave the casual kids in peace and let them have their stupid cool pages?

Bomb survivals, 50 jumps, and free costume type are not a problem, level coping is, look on cool pages over 50% of it are latin domain on daily basis, do it really need to be like that? If somebody make bomb survival and people like it.... then so be it... i would be happy to see somebody do new original bomb survival and people love, it's better then what we see today on cool pages.

And again it not about level not getting plays, thats not flaw in here, it's fact that games throws crap content at people and nothing changes. Instead of saying "we don't care" adapt game to community, put current situetion in to account and make it that cool pages will be more cool then it is now, at least try to get rid of coping proceder, it should already be a lot better that way.

Look on wider picture, new player runs on LBP2, see cool levels, "oh it must be something cool!"" oh cool angry bird bomb survival!", he come next few days and see same set of levels over and over again and some few exeptions. What he gonna think? LBP is about Angry Birds Bomb Survivals and he gonna say that to friend and it gonna spread out. And all i hear here is "Ignore it, we can't do about it, everything is ok"... no it is not ok, it'f a flaw in the game. If you guys don't care about then you don't have right to complain when press gonna say that "LBP is full of X levels"... because you guys don't care about and you say ignore it.

I believe it is possible to mark a level as copied in database and down rate it by default in system, specially that PS3 is closed system and you can't alter the data. Make latins life harder, adapt to him and exclude that behavior. If it's too late for LBP2

And best of all "boos", the last frontier againts bad levels removed because people can't stand few trolls that boo all levels with just 1 boo on each level.... omg it's terrifing! we need to remove it! And everybody is happy about it, "Ghost box only one who can boo in LBP", big fiesta and cool pages are flooed by larin levels and no body have right to vote againts it anymore, yeaaaaaaah! let's parade

I hope next LBP will at least try to fix that, try to expose more of good content then it is now, most people not aware of that "other ways of finding content", all they see is mmpicks, cool pages and spotlight news... do it really need to be so underground?

I don't like this "smile or stfu" attitude in community.... there nothing to smille about cool levels and i wont stfu because i think it's not good i see that as flaw in the game and i want people to know about it (isn't this called feedback that everybody loves?).... if people won't know about it it won't be ever fix or recompncated in other way better then it is now, hiding problems don't magically fix them. And most of all it seems that nobody read reviews on all those latin levels (made by so called "kiddies" right?), i recommend to read them. I hope LBP3 or whatever will be better on that then LBP2 in current state

2012-07-02 03:43:00

Author:
Shadowriver

Posts: 3991

A nicer way to think of it is those 'mediocre' levels seem doable to most people.

Amazing high quality levels can be a little disheartening to see, because its like Hollywood versus YouTube. One is something I could also do the other... Well I'm not good enough.

Better visibility is needed for creators, which is why Stevenl links the community hubs. And an 'un-cool' switch would really help with that.

The biggest problem is the pod landing page. I really think that the 'more' option should be first. It shows friends and hearted people, then if you select community you see cool pages and Mm picks.

2012-07-02 04:12:00

Author:
Mr_Fusion

Posts: 1799

The cool levels are a really fascinating problem for the developers. The current situation is pretty crummy, but right now I see a skate ramp copy that's one day old with 18,000 plays and 1300 hearts. As bad as the situation is, many users are on board with it. They want to play simple copied levels and their demand is met by an ample supply!

Modifying cool levels, though absolutely justifiable, risks alienating this portion of the audience. They may not be the heart and soul of the community, but they're all potential buyers for DLC as long as they remain interested in LittleBigPlanet. Their continued presence has monetary value and it's not something a business can easily brush aside for art's sake. Mm has to keep the cool levels as they are. Consumers want what they want, even when it isn't good for them!

There's plenty of empty screen on the community interface, though. Options other than cool levels and Mm picks can squeeze in there! Let cool level enthusiasts have their fun, we just need alternative options to stand where they can be seen by average users. If cool levels had a strong algorithmic rival players would gravitate to it and wouldn't worry very much about how many copied things were being exchanged across the street.

Shadowriver is right that a lot of people are bound to think that LBP is about cool levels and Mm picks. Those are the two most prominent choices in the game interface. There are better ways to find stuff but it's not displayed where you would expect casual users to do so. An extra button could make all the difference to public perception! Cool levels on the left, "hot levels" on the right. Let users decide which algorithm they prefer.

2012-07-02 05:09:00

Author:
Uncuddly

Posts: 237

they need to hurry up and at least add a news page button on the manu... why is the news page almost hidden?? *mew

Also they most likely will but they also need to add LBP.me lists in the game itself too. i dono about you people but i rarely log in to LBP.me, you have to log in to LBP.me then log online PS3 then you keep having to jump between the PC and the PS3. its a bit annoying. and tbh i have not used lists even once yet and most likely won't until they add it in game.

2012-07-02 05:29:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz

Posts: 4261

Uncuddly, how would you implement that new algorithm to form the 'hot' levels? and how would you stop the 'hot levels' becoming the second 'cool levels'? Let's face it, there isn't a chance that it can be changed for the better. there are now over 6 million levels and goodness knows how you would be able to find all the great levels buried deep in that enormous pool. we have the only answer here, on this forum. we know who the true greats are and we are aware of the up and coming greats, so the answer is very simple: LISTS. people need to think long and hard about what they include on their lists and consider the community when they make one, especially those with great reputations. Just add the list into the search engine and that puts the power in our hands, not an algorithm. Everything else can then be left as it is and people can play their cool levels as much as they want.

put those lists in your sig, or at least your favourite lists

2012-07-02 06:30:00

Author:
GribbleGrunger

Posts: 3910

@uncuddly re players buying DLC
I think that thoughtful creators are more likely and capable of purchasing DLC the mass majority of people likely to play a skate ramp level likely are without income or not a purchase decision maker due to age. But your point is valid. They get lots of plays so people probably like them. *shrugs*

I think it would be great to see the main community sites treated like the Mm picks with their own button. The newsfeed and lists now available combined (much like captain planet)

2012-07-02 10:20:00

Author:
Mr_Fusion

Posts: 1799

2012-07-02 15:56:00

Author:
Shadowriver

Posts: 3991

I believe cool levels are possible to fix it, if it's not then introduce something else. forums are not solution, if list need to work they need to be in-game, hopefully this will come.

Forums are not a solution? I think they work very nicely for the more serious creator.

You do realize the demographics of who mostly plays this game? Quite a few can't even read and are quite happy with a badly created Sponge Bob next to a scoreboard. My girlfriends grandson is in love with LBP and he is 5. I don't even want him near one of my serious levels. Anything harder than walking to the scoreboard with a few jumps or grabs is "too hard". Puzzles are out of the question.

That is why I consider the Cool Levels "kiddy land" and it looks like for the most part they are quite happy with it. It is the ones that once they grow older and start realizing there is something better, just like in life, search for more substance and find themselves on forums such as these.

Now if you want to negate copied levels from the cool levels algorithm or from LBP all together, I have no problem with that. However if you think it should be fixed to make it list stuff we would like and appreciate, I don't think it will. Too many players are in a completely different age group and I would think from what they vote for and think is cool, seems to support that.

I have always thought genre tags as well as a tag that could specify harder or better yet recommended age range for levels would be nice. If that were done, then you could have a cool levels tailored to your own specifications by adding filters to what it brings back. Without that criteria, then we simply lose out due to the vast number of youngsters that play this game and love things that we would tend to find awful.

2012-07-02 16:31:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

Forums are not a solution? I think they work very nicely for the more serious creator.

You do realize the demographics of who mostly plays this game? Quite a few can't even read and are quite happy with a badly created Sponge Bob next to a scoreboard. My girlfriends grandson is in love with LBP and he is 5. I don't even want him near one of my serious levels. Anything harder than walking to the scoreboard with a few jumps or grabs is "too hard". Puzzles are out of the question.

That is why I consider the Cool Levels "kiddy land" and it looks like for the most part they are quite happy with it. It is the ones that once they grow older and start realizing there is something better, just like in life, search for more substance and find themselves on forums such as these.

Now if you want to negate copied levels from the cool levels algorithm or from LBP all together, I have no problem with that. However if you think it should be fixed to make it list stuff we would like and appreciate, I don't think it will. Too many players are in a completely different age group and I would think from what they vote for and think is cool, seems to support that.

I have always thought genre tags as well as a tag that could specify harder or better yet recommended age range for levels would be nice. If that were done, then you could have a cool levels tailored to your own specifications by adding filters to what it brings back. Without that criteria, then we simply lose out due to the vast number of youngsters that play this game and love things that we would tend to find awful.)

Creators are not the one who need to search a levels. I don't belive quite very few can read or you will show me some real stats, before i came here and start creating levels i spend some time with random LBP players and thru they didn't care much about bad levels they tend been impressed with high value of the good levels. But whatever your age average player is you are only exposed to mmpick, cool pages and now spotlight news, most don't care about searching the web, there ton of userbase that care about better levels but are not want to go to website to search content, thats why forums are not good soulition to this problem, since to of userbase are stuck in in-game features, why do you think we see spotlight news now? Because people are not aware of forums. Why this need to be so undergroud? Why Sony promote all those awesome creations from the beta when at the end, game is all about to throwing any content for kids?

I don't see problem of bomb survivals or anything, i was in very few here that see value in them, i know why people like them because they are random, specially train survivals and i even tried to make one myself, just i don't like that content on cool levels is locked right now by latin desires and now without boos no body can stop that now. Let community decide what they want, if most of them are what kids want then go ahead, but don't make them "smile or stfu" or define them as kids that can't read by default. I always believe main problem is fact that good creators don't keep up or inability to promote themselfs, or even fact that they trow away cool levels and not voting for there content, but now i see other problems rised to that and people seems more happy about it, which i don't understand.

I wish LBP to be something like LBP2 Beta community, it had crap too, but everybody can find good levels whatever they want in it and most been happy. I know it's not fully possible, but i believe going this direction better just saying f it

2012-07-02 17:25:00

Author:
Shadowriver

Posts: 3991

I wish LBP to be something like LBP2 Beta community, it had crap too, but everybody can find good levels whatever they want in it and most been happy. I know it's not fully possible, but i believe going this direction better just saying f it

Then you should have liked my suggestions to add genre and age ranges to create your own filtered cool levels. Most in the LBP2 Beta were either over 18 or were at least interested in the beta and involved or more serious creators if under 18. Why do I think that, I have no stats to support it. However, the sign up wasn't in game and that would say those players were outside the game on the internet and probably hooked to a fan site such as this or at least following the playstation network to even know about the beta.

2012-07-02 18:10:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

Uncuddly, how would you implement that new algorithm to form the 'hot' levels? and how would you stop the 'hot levels' becoming the second 'cool levels'?

Well, I didn't want to derail the conversation with talk of hypothetical algorithms, but I do have some thoughts on possible implementations.

In my opinion, the best way to find levels within LittleBigPlanet 2 itself (i.e. with no LBP.me and complete ignorance of fansites and their hubs) is to visit the earths of interesting players, open up their recently hearted lists, and start at the top. This is pretty much a guaranteed good time. Or you can go on Mm picks, visit an Mm picked player's earth, see which other players she's hearted, and start going down their hearted level lists. The work of finding "fun levels" has already been done, for free, by other players. All you and I have to do is latch onto their earths like a lamprey and take a ride to Happytown.

Given that players have already made this effort, designing an algorithm to discover nifty levels by itself is a bit of a waste. What you'd really want is an algorithm that identifies interesting players and promotes any level on which those specific users concentrate their hearting.

What makes an interesting player? That's bound to be controversial since nobody likes the idea of being stalked by a judgmental robot.

The information is all out there, though. Pins already tell most of the story and they're on LBP.me for anyone to see. You could probably build a decent robojudge by parsing what's available to us on the web. Would it be discriminating? Yes. Is the whole idea a bit elitist? No doubt! But if the cool levels are a reflection of what players are doing in large quantities, the sensible counterpoint is an algorithm that tracks the behavior of a smaller subset of users. It would be difficult to subvert the results of such a process since you'd need to convince all the hoity-toity crown wearers to sabotage the "hot levels" together.

As for comments regarding DLC, Mr_Fusion may be right. The skate ramp fans may not be the biggest audience for DLC. They have a non-zero value to the company, though, and from the screenshots on cool levels we see that they have some downloadable stuff. I'm only guessing that somebody at Mm has studied the figures and concluded that it's better not to rock the boat.

It would definitely be nice to have a "Fan Picks" button right next to the "Mm picks" button. All it has to do is gobble up the contents of each community spotlight and regurgitate it as one list. Having two algorithm buttons and two arbitrated pick buttons would fit nicely on that screen.

2012-07-02 18:59:00

Author:
Uncuddly

Posts: 237

just i don't like that content on cool levels is locked right now by latin desires and now without boos no body can stop that now.

Right, because being able to boo in the past kept cool levels from being crap...pure fantasy. Even if you spent hours trying to police the cool pages you'd need a ton of other people doing so as well in order to make a difference. You then also run the very real risk of making the levels even more popular by drawing attention to them.

I give the kids a little more credit, I think most know they are playing copied stuff...they don't care. It's a fun-mindless diversion; maybe they don't want to spend 15 minutes reading instructions on how to control the uber-bot 2000 in your shiny new super-dooper RTS/chess/flight simulator, they'd rather crash into a wall going off a ramp and have a few laughs.

Someone mentioned being worried that new folks would come to LBP and think it's a bad game based on cool pages, that's also bunk. First, they'll probably be initially be impressed by almost anything...and second there are a plethora of awesome levels for them to play through from MM picks alone...they won't bemoan the lack of good content until they've had the game long enough to become bitter and jaded like most of people here complaining.

I wish LBP to be something like LBP2 Beta community, it had crap too, but everybody can find good levels whatever they want in it and most been happy. I know it's not fully possible, but i believe going this direction better just saying f it

Poor example, small group of select individuals...obviously it's going to be better, and no one would try to pull the stunts that happen on cool levels in the beta.

I like jww's idea for genres and age groups. More filter options/categories would be good and has been suggested before. I'd also like the see the fan site level hubs listed like MM picks...I don't think each needs its own entry point, one should be enough. Do these things and fix the cool level spammers and we're good to go.

2012-07-02 19:00:00

Author:
fullofwin

Posts: 1214

Then you should have liked my suggestions to add genre and age ranges to create your own filtered cool levels. Most in the LBP2 Beta were either over 18 or were at least interested in the beta and involved or more serious creators if under 18. Why do I think that, I have no stats to support it. However, the sign up wasn't in game and that would say those players were outside the game on the internet and probably hooked to a fan site such as this or at least following the playstation network to even know about the beta.

Ganre filtringwe already have, but it seems to not work the same way as cool pages:

http://lbp.me/search?q=&u=&g=lbp1&g=lbp2&g=move&pl=1&d=ever&t=cool&labels=Platform

There ton of old content stuck there and it seems not apply level age as cool pages have.
Age filtring won't help at all to this problem, it won't stop latin to block cool pages, nor will allow to say no for some levels and if this will work as tag filtering now then i don't see point of it at all o else it will work right.

Well i said i know it's not fully possible, because there more people and they not so dedicated a beta users, but even with them it was not that bad. Before removal boo cool pages was not that bad as it is now, on top of it there always been something cool, if something is good it had usally have 1/10 yey/boo retio and those kind of levels was coming to the top faster, something beyond 1/10 was considered outstending content (Skunk Factory it's prime example which gone to top in matter of 2 hours with 1/100 retio), worse content with higher retio (more boos) grow slower in the list, yea they can reach top but not so easily as it is now. Yey/boo retio seems like good way to see community review on content, you i could creally see which content is liked or not. They removed Boo but it seems they didnt adapt cool pages to that or they didn't know what to base on, it seems favors latin_player content more then anything, it gone down hilll and it's clearly visible. Everybody said about play/yey retio, but if oyu looks at it it's very random, so if they plugged cool pages to it i don't see this work right, i know MM might not predict that, but insted of ignore it go forward with it, see what is now and try to find soem way to regonize what community this it's cool. So there 2 possible reason why this happens:

1.Or creativity down low that can't keep up with cool pages speed of operation, if there no good content the worse content will have a chance by cool pages nature
2.Cool pages don't work right to new rating system and it harder for good content to flow out

Cool pages suppose to bring cool content based on outsource data, it should be image of community demand, and if it's not problem on community delivering content then it something wrong with cool pages and imo it should be fixed in some way. Good way to do now without help of Boos is down rate copied content, i can see good content jumping once for a while but is jammed by Latin levels. If thats not possible in way then think something else, just to try solve the problem.... not ignore it

2012-07-02 19:11:00

Author:
Shadowriver

Posts: 3991

Ganre filtringwe already have, but it seems to not work the same way as cool pages:

Platforming is an ok filter if you are wanting to find platformers, but not what I was suggesting as it is too basic. Genre and age range are different. In other words what I am suggesting is much like you can locate a movie or a book you might find interesting.

I then said that if we could then implement selectable filters in Cool Levels, then we could have a list that was made up solely of age suggested 16+ platformers, that are all Sci Fi oriented.

2012-07-02 19:20:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

Before removal boo cool pages was not that bad as it is now, on top of it there always been something cool,

This amuses me. People have complained about cool pages since LBP came out...and there's always someone claiming that things used to be better/different. Maybe it's your perceptions and expectations that have changed.

You could be right for all I know, I kind of doubt it though judging from all the threads that have been created on this topic over the years. Not sure why long time LBP players keep gravitating to cool pages, if I accidentally poke myself in the eye with a stick I'm not going to keep doing it for fun.

2012-07-02 19:38:00

Author:
fullofwin

Posts: 1214

Cool Pages worked better at least better then LBP1 and i always said that cool pages are not bad at all as people trying to make them look like is early days of LBP2, if i said anything that cool levels need to be fixed it's mostly because "ok, if people think it's bad then how it can be improved lets discuss about it", but i never said is complitly sucks. I mainly used cool pages as a source of levels, i rarely visit LBPC level showcase, since i would queue up lot of level in which most i would probably not play anyway (but im no saying thats bad thing to do, if somebody prefer to look on levels like that then thats good). Now cool pages gone worse and as somebody that used cool pages a lot i can see that.

Platforming is an ok filter if you are wanting to find platformers, but not what I was suggesting as it is too basic. Genre and age range are different. In other words what I am suggesting is much like you can locate a movie or a book you might find interesting.
But once you played that it won't give new content after that

It suppose to be filter appled on cool pages, but it seems not, it behaves diffrently.

Btw i see other solution, bring trending to in-game... and don't tell anyone how it works

Just say its trendy levels. Trending levels brings all what community in fan sites notice or bringing really good content. Just look at it:

http://lbp.me/search?t=trending

But on other case its high risk it's gonna be trashed, so it need to be done cerfully

2012-07-02 20:37:00

Author:
Shadowriver

Posts: 3991

But once you played that it won't give new content after that

It suppose to be filter appled on cool pages, but it seems not, it behaves diffrently.

Ahh.. you are not understanding my proposal at all. I am proposing filters like Genre and Age Range applied AFTER the algorithms that bring up the Cool Levels. So it would show you different content all the time. It would be taking the entire list THEN applying the filters to that.

For example, Give me all the levels currently in the Cool Levels that start with A.

It would end up being a usable custom subset. This is something we were talking about and hoping way back when talk of LBP2 first came out when they were talking about adding tags to your level etc.. Sadly what they came up with fell way short. ..and why I look towards fan site picks such as the LBPC Community Spotlight for levels I wish to play.

2012-07-02 20:59:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

Ahh.. you are not understanding my proposal at all. I am proposing filters like Genre and Age Range applied AFTER the algorithms that bring up the Cool Levels. So it would show you different content all the time. It would be taking the entire list THEN applying the filters to that.

For example, Give me all the levels currently in the Cool Levels that start with A.

It would end up being a usable custom subset. This is something we were talking about and hoping way back when talk of LBP2 first came out when they were talking about adding tags to your level etc.. Sadly what they came up with fell way short. ..and why I look towards fan site picks such as the LBPC Community Spotlight for levels I wish to play.

Well tags suppose to work to be genre selector, currently if you look on LBP.me search all know lists is seen as entry order, if you add anything to query of cool pages order, it's stop to behave like cool pages and it seems that it shows levels with most cool gactor but not apply that to time. It might be because cool pages with time are threaten differently and works only without fitring... but yea it would be nice if it was fixed.

Also to addition to topic here how cool pages looked like year ago:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110722174745/http://lbp.me/search?t=cool

and here how it looks now:

http://lbp.me/search?t=cool

You can see a lot better levels back then, there still things that you may see "awful" but at least we can't tell if it's copied

2012-07-02 21:43:00

Author:
Shadowriver

Posts: 3991

There seem to be 2 easy ways to help in this situation. The first being that any coped level is ineligible for cool pages. There must be some sort of record that keeps track of whether or not a level has been copied and there are already conditions that make a level eligible. Within 1 week of publish time and high traffic I believe.. This would not prohibit anyone from copying levels but just make it to where any copied level does not have the ability to show up in cool pages. Will this make cool pages have a better quality of levels? Probably not, but it would significantly reduce the fact that each page literally has the same exact copied level for weeks to months on end. Plus if you know what your doing, you can sift through cool pages for recognizable names and legitimate sounding levels. Eliminating copied levels from this would make those legitimate levels a bit more frequent and help lthose creators get a little more out of showing up in cool pages.

The introduction of Hubbie and the other sites picks programs was a huge step in the right direction. I personally think dedicated filters along side Mm picks for spotlights, contest winning levels and even useful tool givaway/tutorials would be another step in the right direction. Currently only Mm picks are a manual filter with all others being automated. More manual features that include quality or useful levels in their own unique filters would be very nice.

2012-07-02 21:45:00

Author:
Dortr

Posts: 548

There seem to be 2 easy ways to help in this situation. The first being that any coped level is ineligible for cool pages.

that would mean team projects where the team copy the level from one another then send it back ETC would not be able to show up on cool pages?

2012-07-02 21:53:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz

Posts: 4261

that would mean team projects where the team copy the level from one another then send it back ETC would not be able to show up on cool pages?

Ten mark it only when it's unlocked... or revamp whole coping feature which allows distinguish sending from remixing (too late for LBP2 for that ofcrose)

2012-07-02 22:10:00

Author:
Shadowriver

Posts: 3991

2012-07-03 13:04:00

Author:
GribbleGrunger

Posts: 3910

Here we are complaining about the cool pages still and how the LPB community could be better. How many of you have your 'favourites' list in your sig? Is it THAT hard to help the community?

come on everyone, just do it. And every time you find an exceptional level just add it to that 'favourites' list

And who do you think will follow that lists ? You think those who visit cool pages will replace their favorite place with lists ?

2012-07-03 14:43:00

Author:
goranilic

Posts: 332

And who do you think will follow that lists ? You think those who visit cool pages will replace their favorite place with lists ?

those who follow cool pages can play the cool pages. those that constantly go on about how bad the cool pages are can use the lists in the players sig on this site. Is it really that much to ask for? seriously?

2012-07-03 14:59:00

Author:
GribbleGrunger

Posts: 3910

those who follow cool pages can play the cool pages. those that constantly go on about how bad the cool pages are can use the lists in the players sig on this site. Is it really that much to ask for? seriously?

But it will not solve the problem of cool pages. I think most LBPC members knows how to find a good level, the problem is not LBPC community, but wide LBP community and what cool pages doing to it.
About your question: of course people will make lists, but do not expect they will make lists for the community, rather for themselves.

2012-07-03 15:17:00

Author:
goranilic

Posts: 332

and like i said before. IMO lists are almost useless... at least for me, until they add them in game. i don't like logging in to lbp.me much. *mew

2012-07-03 15:23:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz

Posts: 4261

And who do you think will follow that lists ? You think those who visit cool pages will replace their favorite place with lists ?

If they were smart they would. lol

They could also check out pick lists like here with the LBPC Community Spotlight and a ton of other things we have suggested like favorite creators and friends hearted lists, friends activity on LBP.me. ...but I guess if those that are so addicted to the Cool Pages can't go elsewhere than so be it. I just think it a bit silly though.. sorta like searching for scraps off a dirty muddy floor when they have great food available in the buffet lines.

2012-07-03 15:33:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

If they were smart they would. lol

They could also check out pick lists like here with the LBPC Community Spotlight and a ton of other things we have suggested like favorite creators and friends hearted lists, friends activity on LBP.me. ...but I guess if those that are so addicted to the Cool Pages can't go elsewhere than so be it. I just think it a bit silly though.. sorta like searching for scraps off a dirty muddy floor when they have great food available in the buffet lines.

Personally, I think it's a UI issue. This might sound cynical, but I think that the masses are just to lazy to take a few minutes and use those avenues to find good levels unless there's a big old button front and center to make it easier for them. I think that if fan sites picks had equal treatment to Cool Levels/mm picks in the main menu, things might be very different out there...

2012-07-03 16:13:00

Author:
Chazprime

Posts: 587

Personally, I think it's a UI issue. This might sound cynical, but I think that the masses are just to lazy to take a few minutes and use those avenues to find good levels unless there's a big old button front and center to make it easier for them. I think that if fan sites picks had equal treatment to Cool Levels/mm picks in the main menu, things might be very different out there...

I'd say contest winning levels would be great with a dedicated filter too. Think about this. Mm picks, spotlights & other site picks are very frequent. Weekly for most if not all, but contests are only every month & sometimes even longer.. A filter with 1st, 2nd & 3rd place for each contest after they have been judged & declared winners. Seems like it would make a lot of sense to give such a rare opportunity & most definitely quality levels a chance for as much visibility as a Mm pick or spotlight.

2012-07-03 17:22:00

Author:
Dortr

Posts: 548

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