Archive: 19 posts

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Greetings, mortals. So, lurking as usual, I've been reading a couple of posts recently regarding boss fights, mainly from the Stuff That Makes You Mad thread, and it got me thinking. Now, while there is already a small discussion going on regarding boss fights, I figured a full thread might be better suited, given I feel this is a discussion in it's own right, with plenty of room to expand. What I wanted to put forward for people to respond to, is, are you fan of boss fights, and why? If so, what makes a good boss battle, and what makes a lousy boss battle? If not, what's your reasoning behind disliking boss battles outright? See, while I've never actually created a srs boss fight in any of my levels, I have been really tempted to at times. However, the negativity regarding bosses is a little off-putting, and I just wanted to spark a discussion regarding what makes for a really good boss fight. In my opinion, a good boss should have; A) A clear weakpoint, that is periodically exposed. B) Varied, yet patterned attacks. Random attacks that are near-impossible to avoid are frustrating. (See Muppets final boss.) C) Relevance to the storyline, and the levels theme. You wouldn't want to fight against a possessed tomato in a space-themed level, would you? Discuss. Also, if you've played any good bosses you've played that were great examples of how to make them right, do be sure to mention them.

2012-06-10 19:49:00 Author: Ostler5000 Posts: 1017

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Ohh Boss battles. I love boss battles. except most LBP community created ones are not very good. >.> where do people get the idea tossing a ton of flaming garbage at you is a good idea? basically boss battles that kill you again and again over and over. or people that make boring as hell boss battles. i'll show you some of my all time fave sonic boss battles. it may be a different game but it still shows how at least IMO ways to make a battle fun. www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdjAOzzhz_o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjeKNsizC2w&feature=plcp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NpQFyYmH04&feature=plcp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxqQCkoF7dA&feature=plcp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkDPatb4uSA&feature=plcp there are a good handful lot more but you should get my point. A boss battle IMO should be fun, NOT annoying. and should match the level's themed real good. not be to hard. not unfairly kill you. make it feel really alive and well animated, no one wants to feel like they are battling a statue that don't do hardly anything. make sure the boss's attacks are something you can see coming ahead of time and have a fairly good chance of avoiding them. don't make the boss battle last to overly long, 1 to 5 mins max. and if 3 to 5 mins. make sure the boss has enough stuff to do in the battle that it don't feel boring. adding in some basic platfoming and or puzzles in the battle can be pretty fun if done well. anyways i could go on forever but i think i've said enough for the moment. *mew

2012-06-10 20:29:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261

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In my opinion, a good boss should have; A) A clear weakpoint, that is periodically exposed. B) Varied, yet patterned attacks. Random attacks that are near-impossible to avoid are frustrating. (See Muppets final boss.) C) Relevance to the storyline, and the levels theme. You wouldn't want to fight against a possessed tomato in a space-themed level, would you? Discuss. Also, if you've played any good bosses you've played that were great examples of how to make them right, do be sure to mention them. I don't agree with your fist point. Some of the best bosses I've played had no weak points, and if they did, weren't readily visible. Case in point, jump_button's bosses in his Nostalgia of the Infinite (LBP1) series and Holguin's bosses. Nothing is more exciting than experimenting with several attacks, then figuring out the solution, or heck, figuring out there is NO solution and merely trying to survive. So really, I think a good boss is one that's engaging and creative. Bonus points if it doubles as a puzzle and requires legitimate effort to defeat, rather than tapping R1 like a maniac.

2012-06-10 20:37:00 Author: bonner123 Posts: 1487

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Both excellent posts, and after reading bonners post, I must admit I'm reminded of how enjoyable it is to get wasted by a boss a few times, and then get that feeling of satisfaction when I finally find something that appears to cause damage. I still think that a periodically exposed weakpoint is good, but maybe not the 'clear' part. Bosses that recieve damage no matter when you hit them effectively become oversized targets with no real thought required to win. However, having to discover exactly where that one set weakpoint is, is my favourite way to play. I haven't played Sonic Episode 2, personally, the controls and camera from Ep.1 put me off, but Ep.2 does have some much better boss battles in it. And the Death Egg Robo from Generations was a great boss, aswell. I think I prefered the Egg Dragoon, though, it felt like there was more variety to that one, personally.

2012-06-10 20:53:00 Author: Ostler5000 Posts: 1017

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I haven't played Sonic Episode 2, personally, the controls and camera from Ep.1 put me off, but Ep.2 does have some much better boss battles in it. And the Death Egg Robo from Generations was a great boss, aswell. I think I prefered the Egg Dragoon, though, it felt like there was more variety to that one, personally. Yeah IMO EP2 was a really good game. i enjoyed the boss battles on it a lot. EP1 was just bad in everyway. ...the Egg Dragoon did have a bit more variety. but i found it a bit to hard. i liked it but it don't get me coming back to replay it all the time like Death Egg Robo & Metalsonic does. *mew

2012-06-10 21:02:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261

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What I wanted to put forward for people to respond to, is, are you fan of boss fights, and why? If so, what makes a good boss battle, and what makes a lousy boss battle? If not, what's your reasoning behind disliking boss battles outright?I love them. If a level seems too easy, they can really spice up the level a bit. However, they are the worst. things. ever. in long levels you're trying to ace it. It can either ruin a level or make it a hundred times better. I like the bosses which have multiple stages/transform, don't drag on for too long because their health bar is ridiculously high, ones that are actually possible to ace and levels which transition smoothly to the fight. If you're forced straight into it with no clue on what to do, it ruins it for me.

2012-06-10 21:03:00 Author: Malamo999 Posts: 107

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I also like transforming bosses/bosses with different stages. It gets waaay too repetitive if it's just the same attacks over and over again in the same manner. Most people are starting to make generic boss fights too. They come from the side, start spouting crud at you, and eventually a pair of grabinators or something comes out for you to throw crud back. It's too boring. Another commonly used boss is the giant one that has only its head and hands on stage. Then you have to avoid its attacks and hit its weak point. If you get close to its hands it can crush you (at least that's usually the case). I think creative bosses would be ones like the final boss at DaVinci's Hideout or the giant red robot in "Where in The World is Avalon Centrifuge?" DaVinci's boss transforms slightly and has many fluid movements and attacks, and you have to climb and platform up the robot to get to its weak point. I like bosses that are actually FUN and not a pain in the butt to fight.

2012-06-10 21:17:00 Author: Sackpapoi Posts: 1195

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The thing I hate in boss battles is where there is just one huge plasma-fied sackbot, and all you have to do is spam with the creatinator for 100 on target shots. That is so boring, I hate just spamming a sackbot with a creatinator. Good boss battles will have a variety of attacks and will be made of something other than just a sackbot, lethalised and set to 'follow.' For example, in Holguin's level 'Shut down that reactor' there may be a sackbot, but he uses a custom made behaviour setting and there is an interesting way to kill him, not just spamming him with creatinator. And as a bonus the boss goes on to get more and more powerful, and that is what makes it so good.

2012-06-10 21:17:00 Author: bluesteel789 Posts: 159

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You wouldn't want to fight against a possessed tomato in a space-themed level, would you? why yes, yes I would. sounds cool. reminds me of the cult classic, "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" Boss battles. I have a love/hate relationship with them. I love a good boss battle but those ones that drone on and on and on are just ridiculous. It shouldn't be so dang hard that it takes even skilled players, 30 minutes to beat. I'm talking LBP levels here, not games in general. 30 minutes in LBP time is an eon! I remember battling the final boss in one of the Final Fantasy games for around 2 hours. That's absurd to me. I like bosses that don't have a random attack pattern too. I like to be able to figure out, ok 3 fireballs, 2 missiles then a foot slam, then I can attack, or something along those lines. I too like the stage bosses. A perfect example is in Holguin's new one Shut Down That Reactor! (http://lbp.me/v/bsr9ds) The boss here is in 3 stages and each stage is a different type of attack. I like creative bosses too. I don't want to just shoot him with the creatinator or paint gun. Maybe I have to climb a banana tree and knock a banana down and he steps on it and slips and hits his head. while stars flow around his head you can then shoot his exposed belly or something. Meh, something different anyway. I still like that idea of fighting a tomato in space.

2012-06-11 00:06:00 Author: biorogue Posts: 8424

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Oh bosses, how I hate and love them. In my opinion, bosses are pretty horrible most of the times they show up in LittleBigPlanet. Bosses in general are really fun, in my opinion. However when it comes to LBP it seems like the majority of bosses follow some sort of boring uncreative pattern; Shoot it until it dies while avoiding the attacks! Or something else generic taken straight from one of the story mode levels, as biorouge stated. Here's my list of stuff I want the perfect bossy to do. I am not saying that I have managed to create the perfect bossy, either. Heck, I have failed most of these points. You live and learn eh? 1. Build-up & introduction. A proper boss should not be something suddenly popping out of a hole, surprising the player. When i face a bossy, I want there to have been a proper epic build-up. Maybe I have spotted the bossy at the corner of the screen, lurking in the shadows? Maybe the bossy have been introduced in the beginning of the level as a bad guy? Maybe the bossy have released mechanism in an attempt to stop me before? Or perhaps there is just a sign of a bossy coming, like a huge boss door. Most videogames do this. look at Zelda; each temple consists of two bosses. One minor and one big. You'll notice that the bosses are always hidden behind huge doors. Huge epic awesome doors that boosts your excitement. You know there's a boss coming, you're pretty darn excited, too! It's definitely not the most important part of a boss, but it certainly adds to the experience. Building up the excitement for a boss before it could be a good idea. 2. Proper gameplay! Now, when I was raging at my stupid cat boss in a level of mine, I did some research on bosses and came to the following conclusion; A boss is like a test, to make sure you have learned everything the level or game have taught you. It is also a reward for playing through the **** thing. So here's me saying that a bossy should be using the same elements as the level, won't that be boring though? Wouldn't that just be a repetition of what you have already ran through? Not if done right, in my opinion. For an excellent example of a boss using elements from a level, you should play Megachimia by KHODEX (http://lbp.me/v/b-9n-5). It's a fun yet somewhat unpolished platformer where you use different liquids to progress. At the bossy, you get to use all chemicals in order to take the bossy down. Even if the boss itself is a bit clunky, it still is an excellent example of what a boss using a level's elements could be. 3. No repetition! This is where most LBP bosses fail for me. Even the ones considered creative seems frustrating when forced to repeat the same elements again and again. When I have done something, I do not want to have to do it again. If I have taken a brain off, I don't want to do it again the same way, three times more. Sure, if the boss gets harder between each try, changing the gameplay between each go then this can be a good way of handling a boss, but spending five minutes shooting down a weakspot and then having to do it again three times is only evil, in my opinion. An example of an othervise great bossy doing this is Wonderful T'west Tube by GalacticSack (http://lbp.me/v/-xc8gj). The boss is about shooting test tubes in order to take out his hands in order to access the belly, however shooting the tubes takes at least five minutes! That's five minutes of shooting tubes. When done you are allowed to get on top of the bossy and get a brain. I get two brains after ten minutes of button-mashing, but what happens? The newly opened test tubes used to keep away his arms close again and he resumes his old movevements, now faster. The brains are replaced with new ones, no sign of tiredness showing. I am now condemned to go through 20 more minutes of button-mashing now that his attacks won't allow as much painting on the tubes. I quit at this point. The bossy was fine except for that though. The concept was original, the gameplay pretty fun. It's just mashing a button that isn't exciting. I could probably write a lot more on the subject, but I should probably get some sleep now instead. TL;DR: A boss should be introduced properly before the boss, the gameplay should resamble the levels gameplay and there shouldn't be too much repetition going on.

2012-06-11 01:38:00 Author: Mnniska Posts: 531

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I love boss battles! I don't even care how bad it is. ... Well... if it breaks itself, then no.

2012-06-11 02:54:00 Author: Unknown User

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I love boss battles in LBP and never think the community makes enough, there are so many interesting things that could be done. I might make a 'Boss Rush' level at some point with all the bosses I've ever thought of, there's quite a few. Generally, I like the ones where you have to think about how to take it down, but spamming the Paintinator isn't awful if it's done well (see Metal Gear Solid Pack boss), sometimes it's just fun to shoot stuff Chase scenes I find can go hand in hand with bosses, like that 'Distress in Ocean' LBP1 level, where first you were running from the shark as fast as you could, then you got to a ship and blasted it with a cannon. Having the boss pop out unawares and having the player run until they find a way to take it down is very good if done well.

2012-06-11 11:37:00 Author: kirbyman62 Posts: 1893

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Having already shared my views in the other thread, I think I should do so in here. Most boss fights I've seen on LBP seem to be catered to the more patient player who doesn't mind being killed umpteen times. I've lost count of the amount of times I've rage quit on a boss, and it's diminished my overall view of the level. People have mentioned Holguin's level, and I should also do so. I don't think it needed a boss fight, it was strong enough without it, and in my opinion it felt a bit tacked on. Some people seem to make boss fights that seem to spawn you straight into danger as soon as you die. This is enough to make me rage quit! A lot of boss fights try to be varied in their attacks, but really.... they're just different ways of shooting you with a plasma ball (which I might add is a very annoying way to die). Boss fights should: - Be short - Be varied (ie varied in the way that it attacks and varied in the way you attack it) - Have attacks that aren't too difficult to avoid

2012-06-11 12:03:00 Author: Ali_Star Posts: 4085

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A proper boss should not be something suddenly popping out of a hole, surprising the player. When i face a bossy, I want there to have been a proper epic build-up. Maybe I have spotted the bossy at the corner of the screen, lurking in the shadows? Maybe the bossy have been introduced in the beginning of the level as a bad guy? Maybe the bossy have released mechanism in an attempt to stop me before? Or perhaps there is just a sign of a bossy coming, like a huge boss door. I definitely agree with everything you said. That part above mostly, though. The LBP 1 story didn't have much depth to it that I felt, but once I actually went back over all of it a couple of times, I noticed details that I'd never seen before. The collector popping up in several places. Why the characters were trapped in cages in one of the wilderness levels. Even seeing them popping up in the earlier levels at random places. It was an incredibly epic build up and I honestly didn't know what to expect at the end. I felt that although LBP 2 had all those new tools, it hid its secrets in the story a lot less subtly. The boss fight was pretty (frustratingly) epic, though, for both stories. I can't WAIT to see what LBP Vita and LBP Karting stories bring us. Especially in terms of bosses. But now I'm rambling. XD

2012-06-11 12:04:00 Author: Malamo999 Posts: 107

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I find the exposed weakness/pattern attacks have almost become a cliche in the game world, unless the intention was to reference classic boss fights, I find it rather ordinary and repetitive. Why they reveal their weakness when clearly it's detrimental to their health is beyond me...

2012-06-11 12:23:00 Author: Ironface Posts: 432

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I find the exposed weakness/pattern attacks have almost become a cliche in the game world, unless the intention was to reference classic boss fights, I find it rather ordinary and repetitive. Why they reveal their weakness when clearly it's detrimental to their health is beyond me... I've always wondered why someone would make an attack so powerful it then leaves their machine or whatever else incapable of any action and conveniently exposes the weak point

2012-06-11 12:40:00 Author: kirbyman62 Posts: 1893

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I've always wondered why someone would make an attack so powerful it then leaves their machine or whatever else incapable of any action and conveniently exposes the weak point It's like the bosses in Dead Space, that have the huge yellow blobs that practically scream "SHOOT HERE!!!" Evolution has been unkind to those creatures!

2012-06-11 13:15:00 Author: Ali_Star Posts: 4085

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meh. it depends for me. but most of the time i like weak points being shown, i find it fun myself.

2012-06-11 14:53:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261

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I have bosses and mini bosses (both good and bad) in a number of my levels. I've learned a lot about making bosses, and try to use them as much as seems fit. The boss at the end of my Pyramid of King Bobankahmen level, I will admit, is quite tedious to beat, since it's mostly surviving his attacks, then getting a tiny window to attack him. The boss fight at the end of Crisis at the Orbitron Spacestation, though, IMHO is one of my best ones. It has 3 different parts, each completely different. And, when you finish one, you get teleported to safety so you don't accidentally die during the cut scenes. It is hard to find a good boss fight in this game, though. Some of the worst ones I've seen consist of a huge stickered-styrofoam monster with a few places to hit it underneath, and they don't even move.

2012-06-12 01:20:00 Author: Brannayen Posts: 438

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