General Stuff #1
Regarding: The Portrayal of Women in Video Games
Archive: 58 posts
| A slightly interesting topic just caught my attention over on the US / UK Thread (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=70397-The-Differences-between-the-US-and-UK/page19), regarding the portrayal of women in video games. I wanted to bring it into a thread of its own, as it's a discussion I absolutely love having. Let's get rid of any preconceptions before I start. No, I don't think women are badly portrayed in video games. Sure, there are some really inaccurate depictions of women, and some incredibly disrespectfully handled characters too. But you can equally say the same for men, different races, different sexualities, and so on. So it interests me to find out why this is such a common topic of discussion? Why is it that there are so many people bemoaning how women are 'treated unfairly' or treated in a 'sexist manner', or exaggerated to the point where they are mere sex objects? I'd like to start by drafting up a few pros vs cons, and see what you guys think. Do you agree? disagree? not feel strongly one way or another? I'm interested to hear what you think  What makes a Good Female Character? This question is arguably the most laughable thing I ever read in gaming articles and critiques worldwide. I want to let you in on a secret. Pay attention, Mr Media. Women aren't an alien race. We are human beings, and have just as many facets to our personalities as men. Therefore, asking 'What makes a good female character' is as deep a discussion as 'what makes any good character'? But, for the purposes of my argument, I'll list the following as things I look for in any good story character, whether they are a protagonist, antagonist, or one of the supporting characters found throughout a plot: Multi-Dimensional Believable Human By Multi-Dimensional, I mean exactly what I say. No good, noteworthy character that I recall has ever been a creature of only one kind. All memorable characters have sides to their personality, histories that drive them forward through a story, goals that they strive to achieve, opinions on the world around them, and a myriad of other intangible features which simply are. By Believable, I don't mean that the character has to be in real-world surroundings. I mean that they should react to things around them in a way that makes sense. What the protagonist does about things, people and events that they encounter on their journey will depend on their opinions and their character history. If they react in a way that makes sense for that character, they are believable. It doesn't matter that they have superpowers or that they can kill vampires or whatever you might throw at them, so long as they are, ultimately: Human. They can't be of any breed really - I've come across plenty of alien and animal characters who I am incredibly fond of. But for the purposes of a character you can identify with, they should ultimately have humanistic qualities which we can relate to. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly http://www.thatvideogameblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/lara_croft-may28.jpg Lara Croft from Tomb Raider Good, Bad or Ugly? In my opinion, GOOD! Yes, Lara Croft is famed as being one of the most highly *ahem* coveted female video game characters of all time, but this doesn't detract from the fact that she is: Incredibly intelligent, being fluent in many different languages, and presumably some sort of history in archeology and certainly having a history of good education. Competent with firearms and able to defend herself against enemies (as opposed to the usual "damsel in distress" stereotype) Inwardly strong in her attitude to obstacles - Rather than calling out for help, she runs in and solves the problem herself. Bad role model for young girls? Hardly. There are plenty of other female characters that we can add to this list, for example: Chell, GLaDOS, Alyx Vance, Chun-Li, Jennifer Tate, Lightning, Zelda (Think of the alter-egos Sheik and Tetra), Lara Croft, Jade, Commander Shepard, Jill Valentine, Yuna, Rubi Mallone, April Ryan, Samus Aran, The Boss, Faith. and who could forget... MS PACMAN!!! And this is naming just a few of the huge list I have in my head... http://www.authenticsociety.com/article/img/games/IcoAndYorda.jpg Yorda from Ico Good, Bad or Ugly? Bad, certainly. Despite the fact that she needs to be led by the hand for the whole game (patronising, pointless) and being completely incapable of doing anything for herself (shall I get some toilet paper, Yorda? How about a little sip of water?), she is the epitomy of how to do a 'damsel in distress' (Penelope Pitstop, anyone?) really badly. Taking the trope so far to the extreme that it makes me want to just leave her standing in the middle of a suspiciously dangerous looking field, wondering whatever she'll do to help herself. For more examples of (IMHO) badly plotted female characters (which often follow the trope of damsel in distress), see: Princess Peach Zelda (In both lists because she's so darned confusing. She has powers, yet she gets captured.... all.. the... time...?) Tyris Flare (WHAT HAVE YOU DONE???? Golden Axe guys! I mean.... GOLDEN AXE! WTF is WRONG WITH YOU!!!!) Navi. (RRRRAAAAAGGGGEEEEEE!!!! That's all I'm gonna say) I'm sure you can think of more  Ahem. Mai Shiranui, Tifa Lockheart, Ivy Valentine, EVERY female cast member of Dead or Alive, Bra & Panty-wearing Samus... You get the picture Yup, this is, rather astonishingly, the Ugly. I'm going to leave aside debates about the practicality of outfits here, although I heartily agree that in general, many of the skimpy armours and cutout leotards worn by female fighters are, essentially, ridiculous. Rabid-Coot posted a great article on the US / UK Thread, which you can find here (http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/) - I highly recommend you read it, as it puts what I think down on paper in a wonderfully sophisticated and detailed manner. BUT! I'm not talking about costumes here. A costume does not make a character. The way a character looks is only one side of their profile - the personality within is by far the issue that I am most concerned with here. And this is why I call this the ugly. We have a real issue here. Take away what these girls are wearing (no, I meant figuratively speaking ) from the equation, and we need to look under the skin to see what really lies beneath.Lets' look at Soulcaliber, King of Fighters, and every female fighter in a 'fighting game' you can possibly think of. There's usually a pretty sizeable roster of female fighters in these games, and there has been for a long time now. They are often (but not always) depicted as scantily clad, and there are arguably just as many good characters as there are bad in this huge collection of visual stereotypes. In the good games, they are all unique, with their own fighting styles, their own histories, goals and attitudes. In the not-so-good games, they're... well. They're BAD characters! Which characters you like or don't like isn't the issue. We'll all have our favourites. But I would like to bring up one point, as these are usually the characters used as fodder for those rushing in without thinking. "These are disgusting portrayals of women! How disrespectful is this?" Answer: Sexualisation aside, there is very little wrong with the way these characters are treated. It's probably not the goal of the game devs to make any big statement with this, but there is one simple fact that runs throughout: These women are fighting with and against men as their equals. Can't get much more respectful than that. There's so, so much more to talk about here, but I really do have to get on with some work, so I'll hand over to you guys to share your thoughts (and please do!) I know I've rambled quite a lot, but this is really just an introduction post to spark off some healthy debate and discussion. There's lots more to be said | 2012-06-01 13:09:00 Author: rialrees  Posts: 1015 |
| Funny enough... for Zelda, in windwaker for half the game she's a pirate who's just as capable as everyone else... but as soon as she transforms into princess mode she immediately become vulnerable again... to be honest I think it says more about the developers than the characters... Think my favorite gender balance would be in uncharted, simply as all the characters display weakness and stregnths based on their personalities more than anything. | 2012-06-01 13:17:00 Author: ForgottenEnigma  Posts: 1414 |
| Funny enough... for Zelda, in windwaker for half the game she's a pirate who's just as capable as everyone else... but as soon as she transforms into princess mode she immediately become vulnerable again... to be honest I think it says more about the developers than the characters... Agreed! It's so strange to see a character who switches so much. It would be better if they just made their minds up. There's nothing wrong, per se, with the damsel in distress - it's just the way it's handled that matters. if it's ott or inexplicable, then it's nothing more than plain irritating  Think my favorite gender balance would be in uncharted, simply as all the characters display weakness and stregnths based on their personalities more than anything. This, this a million times this! Thanks you! *hugs* | 2012-06-01 13:20:00 Author: rialrees Posts: 1015 |
| I think the key thing is believability. You don't want game developers to be creating female characters that effectively scream "hey look at me! I'm so independant unlike all these other busty videogame **********s! i'm such a strong role model!!!!!!!!!" Being buxom and/or scantally clad isn't necessarily unrealistic, providing it's done correctly. Walk through a town centre on a Friday night, and you're bound to see women looking a lot worse! On the subject of looks - look at all the men in video games. There's no ugly ones! I must say, I disagree with you a little bit on Yorda. Yes, she is a damsel in distress, and helpless, but you also genuinely care about the character and will do anything to protect her, and not just because that's the "mission". | 2012-06-01 13:25:00 Author: Ali_Star  Posts: 4085 |
| I think the key thing is believability. You don't want game developers to be creating female characters that effectively scream "hey look at me! I'm so independant unlike all these other busty videogame **********s! i'm such a strong role model!!!!!!!!!" Being buxom and/or scantally clad isn't necessarily unrealistic, providing it's done correctly. Walk through a town centre on a Friday night, and you're bound to see women looking a lot worse! On the subject of looks - look at all the men in video games. There's no ugly ones! Heartily agreed I must say, I disagree with you a little bit on Yorda. Yes, she is a damsel in distress, and helpless, but you also genuinely care about the character and will do anything to protect her, and not just because that's the "mission". Fair enough It's all opinion after all - I agree to a certain point, but I just find that for me, they took it a bit too far. | 2012-06-01 13:32:00 Author: rialrees Posts: 1015 |
| I've never played a game in which a female character was in any way inferior to her male counterpart, I've read a few articles about people claiming that these virtual women are inadequately represented, and it almost seems like complaining for the sake of complaining, because all other sources of complaining have dried up and withered. No one is a super soldier, let's not heighten the physical capabilities of any gender for no reason like the complainers insist, let's not set an unrealistic video game standard for anyone. Implausible physics make games rather ridiculous. Oh but I laughed after playing the latest Mortal Kombat, for every (yes, every) female character... might as well not wear anything at all. I mean even the most hideous of female fiends is dressed in a Borat-style mankini, and it truly is... uhh... well I'm sure someone would be offended by it. | 2012-06-01 13:42:00 Author: Ironface  Posts: 432 |
| I don't think the complaints regarding the representation of women in certain videogames are about the characters being bad. I think it's about how they're oversexualized in order to appeal to the young male demographic. I mean, look at the women in Mortal Kombat. Mileena wears little more than 2 strips of leather. How her watermelon-sized breasts don't slip out as soon as she starts fighting is a miracle. Female armor in MMO's and fantasy RPG's are also ridiculous. Armor is supposed to protect the wearer, but I don't see how a metal bikini is very protective. Then there's the minigames in God Of War. And the easter eggs in MGS4 and Team Ninja games in which the female characters' breasts jiggle if you shake the controller. Of course there's nothing wrong with sexy characters, but stuff like this is exaggerated. It's immature. It makes me feel like I'm playing something made for 13 year olds. | 2012-06-01 14:17:00 Author: SnipySev  Posts: 2452 |
| BUT! I'm not talking about costumes here. A costume does not make a character. The way a character looks is only one side of their profile - the personality within is by far the issue that I am most concerned with here. It's definitely only costumes that are the problem as far as I'm concerned. Player characters in MMOs don't even have personalities, they're just avatars. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-2paFdRw_U | 2012-06-01 14:22:00 Author: Kiminski  Posts: 545 |
| Of course there's nothing wrong with sexy characters, but stuff like this is exaggerated. It's immature. It makes me feel like I'm playing something made for 13 year olds. I like that (the way you put it) - essentially, the over sexualisation of certain characters is far more patronising to men than it is disrespectful to women. Look guys! We spent money on JIGGLE PHYSICS! Purlease. My husband, bless him, loves to see a sexy lady in any format, but he's far more invested in a character with substance. Or so he tells me.... *shifty eyes* It's definitely only costumes that are the problem as far as I'm concerned. Player characters in MMOs don't even have personalities, they're just avatars. Granted. However, much the same could be said of the male characters in most MMOs too... | 2012-06-01 14:24:00 Author: rialrees Posts: 1015 |
| I'll be curious to find out what you folks will think of the female protagonist in my upcoming level series. | 2012-06-01 14:38:00 Author: Antikris  Posts: 1340 |
| Granted. However, much the same could be said of the male characters in most MMOs too... But male MMO avatars are encased in enormous suits of armor. If they showed as much skin as female avatars, they'd be running around in nothing but boots, belt and shorts... if that. | 2012-06-01 14:40:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452 |
| Ria you have to play Mass Effect (2 and 3 on PS3) and have a go with FemShep http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d3krSxPH_Y (Actually everyone that think story and characters have meaning in games should play Mass Effect. It ridiculizes every Final Fantasy or Elder Scroll and imho is on par with Metal Gear Solid) | 2012-06-01 14:46:00 Author: OmegaSlayer  Posts: 5112 |
| But male MMO avatars are encased in enormous suits of armor. If they showed as much skin as female avatars, they'd be running around in nothing but boots, belt and shorts... if that.. Exactly. Yeah you get the rippling muscles occasionally, but more often than not it's big old suits of armour. It's more about looking tough than sexy. Still catering for the male playerbase anyway. Check out Tera's males lol. Not much for us girls to look at! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPYGfh9ttD0 | 2012-06-01 14:48:00 Author: Kiminski Posts: 545 |
Speaking of God of War, about 90% of the female characters have their boobs out! Maybe that's just how they rolled back in them days. Nobody should complain though. Boobs are awesome, even women can appreciate nice boobs.  EDIT: I didn't realise you were a girl, Kiminski. | 2012-06-01 14:52:00 Author: Ali_Star Posts: 4085 |
| Relevant: http://cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/55/55049.jpg and... (Uh a little too much for a family site, sorry.) -warlord | 2012-06-01 14:53:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452 |
| But male MMO avatars are encased in enormous suits of armor. If they showed as much skin as female avatars, they'd be running around in nothing but boots, belt and shorts... if that. Ew! Perish the thought! No, seriously, I agree that some games really do take it to the extreme. There'll be plenty of female characters around who are nothing more than sex objects - just like it is in the film industry. It's mildly irritating, but probably nowhere near the level of disgust that it seems to attract... There are plenty of male sex objects out there too, it's just not quite so 'in your face'. Women, in very general terms, don't really go for the whole 'stripped bare' thing. Whilst men (again, very generally speaking) are more inclined to pay attention to overall visual aspects of the opposite sex, women may be more inclined to pay attention to someone's voice, or their eyes, or the words they use. HUGE generalisation there, I know, but unfortunately this is the sort of thing that has to be dealt with in generalistic terms. I used to play Guild Wars, and would play both female and male avatars. The male Warrior avatars would always be kitted out with huge bulky armour (also available for women warriors, although not QUITE perfect in terms of skin coverage, certainly better (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ranger_armor) than Tera, based on skin-to-armour ratios ). BUT - other male avatars could just as easily be found in more revealing armours. Obviously not flaunting QUITE the same... erm.... aspects... of the body as the female armours. But little was left to the imagination in some cases....So some MMO's do it better than others... Guild Wars actually being on of the tamest in terms of sexualisation IMHO. Been trying to write this whilst invoicing... no idea where I was going with it. Sorry about that! | 2012-06-01 15:07:00 Author: rialrees Posts: 1015 |
| Relevant: {Insert Awesomeness}] ROFL! Class! | 2012-06-01 15:08:00 Author: rialrees Posts: 1015 |
| Ew! Perish the thought! No, seriously, I agree that some games really do take it to the extreme. There'll be plenty of female characters around who are nothing more than sex objects - just like it is in the film industry. It's mildly irritating, but probably nowhere near the level of disgust that it seems to attract... There are plenty of male sex objects out there too, it's just not quite so 'in your face'. Women, in very general terms, don't really go for the whole 'stripped bare' thing. Whilst men (again, very generally speaking) are more inclined to pay attention to overall visual aspects of the opposite sex, women may be more inclined to pay attention to someone's voice, or their eyes, or the words they use. HUGE generalisation there, I know, but unfortunately this is the sort of thing that has to be dealt with in generalistic terms. I don't think that generalization is that huge. Women are, in general, much subtler about what they find attractive than men. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. | 2012-06-01 15:09:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452 |
| Speaking of God of War, about 90% of the female characters have their boobs out! Maybe that's just how they rolled back in them days. Nobody should complain though. Boobs are awesome, even women can appreciate nice boobs. EDIT: I didn't realise you were a girl, Kiminski. Boobs and all! TBH I'm only really complaining as I don't think it's the way it should be, it's not that I'm offended or bothered by it. In fact I quite enjoy running about in my 'Bra and Knickers of Delving +1s' lol. I suppose the only thing that bothers me at all would be the fact that there just isn't any need for it anymore. It's been done to death and it's boring. | 2012-06-01 15:10:00 Author: Kiminski Posts: 545 |
| I know it's not technically a video game but I'm just going to leave these here for consideration. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xks2jpCDoVM/TuZCtDBPB1I/AAAAAAAAACw/HzpLAR2tbh0/s1600/avengers_1.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BEyxNbp0sAE/TuZDS6uZLyI/AAAAAAAAAC8/0biCn8NSy-c/s1600/tumblr_lv92436l7g1qmynffo1_r1_500.jpg Basically it's what the poster would be if they posed all the male characters like they pose the lady..... I'm of two minds when it comes to women in video games. I can appreciate the art of fantastically designed characters but I don't like the objectification and unrealistic picture they provide for adolescent boys and the girls who think that's what they need to aspire to. It's a bigger issue than just the gaming industry though, magazines, movies, fashion, it all works together to create an unrealistic "norm" for women (and men for that matter) that affects esteem and body image. Until society demands more realistic and diversified depictions of people in the media it's not likely to change anytime soon though. | 2012-06-01 16:05:00 Author: Morgana25  Posts: 5983 |
| I know it's not technically a video game but I'm just going to leave these here for consideration. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xks2jpCDoVM/TuZCtDBPB1I/AAAAAAAAACw/HzpLAR2tbh0/s1600/avengers_1.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BEyxNbp0sAE/TuZDS6uZLyI/AAAAAAAAAC8/0biCn8NSy-c/s1600/tumblr_lv92436l7g1qmynffo1_r1_500.jpg Basically it's what the poster would be if they posed all the male characters like they pose the lady..... I'm of two minds when it comes to women in video games. I can appreciate the art of fantastically designed characters but I don't like the objectification and unrealistic picture they provide for adolescent boys and the girls who think that's what they need to aspire to. It's a bigger issue than just the gaming industry though, magazines, movies, fashion, it all works together to create an unrealistic "norm" for women (and men for that matter) that affects esteem and body image. Until society demands more realistic and diversified depictions of people in the media it's not likely to change anytime soon though. It doesn't help when todays "role models" include Rihanna and Nicky Minaj! | 2012-06-01 16:34:00 Author: Ali_Star Posts: 4085 |
| It's a bigger issue than just the gaming industry though, magazines, movies, fashion, it all works together to create an unrealistic "norm" for women (and men for that matter) that affects esteem and body image. I often wonder what the state of mainstream music and film would be, had they not sold most of it with sex. Much improved I should think! | 2012-06-01 16:34:00 Author: Kiminski Posts: 545 |
| [Sorry for the length of the post.] I think everyone so far has had some very good points and arguments. It is refreshing to see a discussion that is actually a discussion rather than a close-fisted duel of varying opinions. Thread+1 I do think that this topic is also mired in cultural relativism and is very much a forest for the trees type situation. Ria wants to point out to people that the actual woman is the most important part of the analysis rather than the superficial trappings the woman wears. The ability of the woman to be strong, to compete and win in a male-centric environment and to be empowered to be, act or dress anyway they see fit is the point of it all. This is an enlightened, sensible viewpoint and I agree that it is the needs and abilities of the female character that are more defining or detrimental than the amount of jiggle-physics or clothes involved. However I say that as an adult who has never really gotten into the concept that people are only what they wear, drive or consume. Hopefully this is an 'adult' mindset though I use the term loosely. ----- I think that Morgana has gotten a large part of the problem right in her post. Putting the sexual relativity issue on the back burner I think that the superficial portrayal of women in video games goes hand-in-hand with the superficial portrayal of women in many media outlets. Young and impressionable people can be influenced to a much larger extent by the superficial trappings than by the core characteristics of the women they see portrayed in media. Regardless of the actual strength of the character people can come to skewed viewpoints about how women should dress, about what makes a woman beautiful or about the value a woman has in the world. The messages of objectification of women in media are loud, blatant and pervasive. In addition to the strong female characters already listed there are is a much longer list of throwaway female game character, window dressing whose only presence is to provide salacious entertainment. Games have much more inconsequential females that players can able to interact lewdly to, perform up-skirt camera shots or that promote the female character as minor, weak, submissive or merely as an outlet for sexual desire. ----- I've not polled anything but my feeling is that the amount strong female character representation to artificial, two dimensional expressions of male fantasy is not even close to being equal. The same can be said for the male game stereotypes and I by no means feel that there is any equality or parity on that end of the spectrum. The stereotypes and behaviours are just as skewed, damaging and incorrect for male characters and also lead to teaching, reinforcing or creating mindsets in young or impressionable gamers. I think the 'outrage' that comes from the depiction of female characters in games is that while there are bad portrayal of both genders in games the overall portrayal of males is aggressive and strong and the overall portrayal of females focuses mainly on their bodies as an object. I can come up with a list of X great characters in gaming that are wonderful role models, male or female. I can list out different positive traits that I feel are laudable for both genders. I completely agree with Ria that if you stop paying attention to what the women in games are wearing then you can see that there are very good characters. I think Ria's list of characters, however, is more of a list of primary or secondary female game characters and that there is a much, much larger list of non-character females used in games used for objectification and display. ----- I don't think that most young or impressionable gamers look beyond the clothes or the skin, however, when playing games and that this repetitive exposure to the superficial is the biggest problem. There are parts of the human brain that just do not develop until later stages of childhood that deal with things like abstract concepts and the ability to understand more than concrete, easy to see facts. Shove enough portrayals of women whose purpose is to be pretty with unrealistic physical proportions and show off their body to young players and this becomes their worldview long before they can start to see beyond the surface layers. To sum this all up, I think that everyone so far has had very good points that are reasonable and correct. But I also think that this issue is different for each social class, age group and culture. I love the discussion that has gone on so far and as long as the intention is for discussion rather than 'winning' then this thread is a breath of fresh air. | 2012-06-01 18:07:00 Author: Trindall  Posts: 297 |
| It's the believability aspect of the portrayal that causes me the most ire. Given a sufficiently robust cast of characters we would expect some of them to dress very provocatively as a reflection of their varying personalities. We would also anticipate a corresponding contingent of conservatively costumed characters for the same reason. What we actually end up with is everybody going to war in their beach wear. It's not that the skimpy outfits are inherently bad, it's that they don't make sense when the character is faced with an army of pointy, poisonous creatures whose only purpose is to rip the protagonist's guts out. Even worse, the mission will eventually take us to The Ice Level, where all concerns of being disemboweled are supplemented by the promise of frostbite! Any character should, believably, stop and say "Oh, maybe I should go back to town and get a jacket." That this rarely happens makes everybody involved look stupid! This applies to both genders, obviously. In God of War II Kratos climbs a frozen mountain in his undies. Final Fantasy X sends Wakka into the same weather with only slightly more coverage. They both live in warm areas in which their costumes are justifiable, but they shouldn't be walking through snow drifts like that. Or at least someone should mention that their toes have turned black! But if anybody is stuck out in the cold with an incredibly unbelievable oufit, it's the ladies. Companies invariably place form over function and maximize sex appeal against all reasonable environmental concerns. They need to understand that acquiring gangrene is not sexy! This was all somewhat justifiable back when changing a character's costume was not technically feasible. These days, however, switching outfits is a cornerstone of the industry. Everybody has new clothes to unlock or purchase as downloadable content. They even have Final Fantasy characters dressing up as people from Assassin's Creed and Mass Effect. But the female lead can't put on some pants before wandering out into a snowstorm? Not ok, industry!  It's actually one of the things I really like about sackpeople. They're made of cloth and therefore have no fear of brutal sun exposure or hypothermia, but they're always eager to dress appropriately for the weather! Ah, but I've gotten so carried away ranting about the ridiculous combinations of bikinis and blizzards that I haven't addressed any comments except the original believability bullet point! Whew. Nice discussion you have running here, though. | 2012-06-01 18:36:00 Author: Uncuddly  Posts: 237 |
| Okay, I totally agree. Its slightly ridiculous when the most important biological organs for survival completely exposed. It ruins my suspension of disbelief, a bit of a pet peeve. I don't like games with crazy outfits, but if you must, at least balance it between all characters. Thats the definition of prejudice. And the strong female character cliche is just as patronising. Some woman are weak, some men are weak. I'd like it if all companies concentrated not on the gender's effect on personality, because there is very little. It would be nice if they concentrated on the personality alone. This goes for any stereotypes. Also, it would be really nice if there was the same variation in body types in females as there is in males. I appreciate that most people want to be pretty, but that isn't a major restriction. Some games make women look like they all came out of the same mould, facial features and all. Not everyone is a D-cup either. Some video game companies create great characters all round, but some (I am looking at YOU Fantasy MMORGs) don't. | 2012-06-01 19:23:00 Author: PygmyOwl  Posts: 1316 |
| http://www.twivi.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/jade.jpg Jade is one of the most pleasant female character I've come across in a video game! | 2012-06-01 19:43:00 Author: Oddmania  Posts: 1305 |
| Male characters are either disposable cannon fodder or walking cliches like Solid Snake. +1 if they're shirtless. I dunno, I'm not sure men are portrayed any better than women in games. Where there are exceptions to the rule the game generally has good characters across the board, right? Isn't it more a problem of bad writers. | 2012-06-01 23:05:00 Author: Ayneh  Posts: 2454 |
| Ohh~ Opinions Alert! By Believable, I don't mean that the character has to be in real-world surroundings. I mean that they should react to things around them in a way that makes sense. What the protagonist does about things, people and events that they encounter on their journey will depend on their opinions and their character history. If they react in a way that makes sense for that character, they are believable. It doesn't matter that they have superpowers or that they can kill vampires or whatever you might throw at them, so long as they are, ultimately: Human. They can't be of any breed really - I've come across plenty of alien and animal characters who I am incredibly fond of. But for the purposes of a character you can identify with, they should ultimately have humanistic qualities which we can relate to. most of the time that's right... but sometimes it's funny for characters to react in a way that makes no since.hell, i love me a good crazy character as long they are still cool. I'm gonna be honest and say that i really like unhuman characters. like the Robot Matelsonic and crazymadman Dr. Eggman from the sonic series.or the evil overlord Laharl from disgaea. i love both good and bad characters i've seen overtime.and and also i find IMO it depends on the story. also a lot of the time i just love really crazy characters. *mew http://www.authenticsociety.com/article/img/games/IcoAndYorda.jpg Yorda from Ico Good, Bad or Ugly? Bad, certainly. Despite the fact that she needs to be led by the hand for the whole game (patronising, pointless) and being completely incapable of doing anything for herself (shall I get some toilet paper, Yorda? How about a little sip of water?), she is the epitomy of how to do a 'damsel in distress' (Penelope Pitstop, anyone?) really badly. Taking the trope so far to the extreme that it makes me want to just leave her standing in the middle of a suspiciously dangerous looking field, wondering whatever she'll do to help herself. Wow.that's pretty cold of you to say about her. while it's true she is helpess and needs you to do everything for her. but that don't make her a bad character at all. she was basically just born in to the world in the start of the game. and its really cute & charming having to help her and how the boy is willing to risk his life for her at all costs. While tomboys may be my fave type of girl normally that don't mean i can't enjoy other character types too. to many people nowadays want all girls to not relay on other characters at all as if it makes them a worthless character or something. thats's a poor selfish way to look at it. it's the same way for males in stories too. everyone wants the superman guy who can do anything and never loses and never gives up in the end. IMO there is room for so much more in stories. but as soon as someone writes a weak character that needs help from others. most people will auto dislike them sadly. | 2012-06-01 23:15:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz  Posts: 4261 |
| (Wrote some awesome stuff) To sum this all up, I think that everyone so far has had very good points that are reasonable and correct. But I also think that this issue is different for each social class, age group and culture. I love the discussion that has gone on so far and as long as the intention is for discussion rather than 'winning' then this thread is a breath of fresh air. Love reading your response to this trindall And yes, it's all about discussion - I don't think there ever could be a 'winner' in this sort of debate! I know it's not technically a video game but I'm just going to leave these here for consideration. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xks2jpCDoVM/TuZCtDBPB1I/AAAAAAAAACw/HzpLAR2tbh0/s1600/avengers_1.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BEyxNbp0sAE/TuZDS6uZLyI/AAAAAAAAAC8/0biCn8NSy-c/s1600/tumblr_lv92436l7g1qmynffo1_r1_500.jpg Crazily-good image to use here Morgana - I love it. You're so very right - of course the issue stems from the media as a whole, and it would, in a perfect world, be awesome to have a wide range of positive role models in film, music, games, tv, everywhere. We cam but dream This applies to both genders, obviously. In God of War II Kratos climbs a frozen mountain in his undies. Final Fantasy X sends Wakka into the same weather with only slightly more coverage. They both live in warm areas in which their costumes are justifiable, but they shouldn't be walking through snow drifts like that. Or at least someone should mention that their toes have turned black! But if anybody is stuck out in the cold with an incredibly unbelievable oufit, it's the ladies. Companies invariably place form over function and maximize sex appeal against all reasonable environmental concerns. They need to understand that acquiring gangrene is not sexy! Now you tell me! Agreed, skimpiness is always a much wider issue with female characters - I suppose it's just down to having more erm... delicate.... features to erm... Okay. I'm going to stop before I dig myself a hole. But thank you for bringing up Kratos and Wakka, two great examples of male attire gone awry! Male characters are either disposable cannon fodder or walking cliches like Solid Snake. +1 if they're shirtless. I dunno, I'm not sure men are portrayed any better than women in games. Where there are exceptions to the rule the game generally has good characters across the board, right? Isn't it more a problem of bad writers. Of course! Good writing = Good characters! Completely agree that it's an issue with both sexes I suppose that's part of the reason that I get so confused about why there's so much debate with female characters, as opposed to ... well, characters in general!Ohh~ Opinions Alert! (Psst. I did warn you in my post that it was all just my opinion )I'm gonna be honest and say that i really like unhuman characters. like the Robot Matelsonic and crazymadman Dr. Eggman from the sonic series.or the evil overlord Laharl from disgaea. i love both good and bad characters i've seen overtime.and and also i find IMO it depends on the story. also a lot of the time i just love really crazy characters. *mew I agree! I love to see games exploring other aspects to the human psyche. But, and this is a big but - no matter whether the character is evil, alien, animal or robotic, I still think that their actions are ultimately, human. Because we are human. And if we can't feel the same way as they do, or at the very least understand where that feeling may come from, then it would be very difficult to get invested. I'm going to give an example here of RED XIII (Nanaki) from Final Fantasy VII. He's a ... red... lion... wolf... dude. SO not human. But his story stems from very human-like emotion and drive. Shamed by his father's cowardice, he is determined to prove himself worthy as a warrior of Cosmo Canyon. In his race, he is considered a teenager, and boy, he acts like it. He has a major chip on his shoulder, is very sensitive regarding his past and his lineage, and is determined that he will leave the party when he has brought them to Cosmo Canyon. But when he discovers the truth about his father, he goes through a change. A coming of age, if you will. I would go on, but that would be boring. Essentially, good or evil, IMHO a well written character should be based on humanistic qualities. How far the writers stray from there is up to them, as long as they do it well to many people nowadays want all girls to not relay on other characters at all as if it makes them a worthless character or something. thats's a poor selfish way to look at it. it's the same way for males in stories too. everyone wants the superman guy who can do anything and never loses and never gives up in the end. IMO there is room for so much more in stories. but as soon as someone writes a weak character that needs help from others. most people will auto dislike them sadly. Nah, I don't want characters to be completely powerful. I just found this particular character to be really annoying - just my opinion, I respect yours too Everyone has weaknesses, it just ticks me off when that's all they have. Whilst I liked the game, that character didn't speak to me, I'm afraid  Love everybody's opinions. Thank you all so much for taking the time to write such wonderful thoughts out! Keep em coming! | 2012-06-02 00:10:00 Author: rialrees Posts: 1015 |
| You rarely see Intersex people as main characters, You rarely see people who have any slight physical deformity either. The slight physical deformity i can understand (although IMO it would add far more character to a person if they had a syndrome that didn't give them superpowers) But no Intersexed people? Or Asexuals for that matter, Very few of them. People who play video games are exposed to a world of Cisgendered Heterosexual vanity, and i find it appalling. | 2012-06-02 00:16:00 Author: Kern  Posts: 5078 |
| Interesting, I see quite a few asexuals in other media. In fact they usually wind up as my favourite characters. Being such a consuming part of human life I find it makes a more interesting character to have it left out. But thats my opinion. The love interest side of story lines doesn't often intrique me. It depends though, on how it is written. It does take quite a lot to get me shipping characters. | 2012-06-02 09:40:00 Author: PygmyOwl Posts: 1316 |
| Each link in this post of mine will redirect you to a different Extra Credits episode. Extra Credits is an excellent show that you all should watch if you're interested in knowing more about how the videogames industry and medium works. First, an episode where they analyze True Female Characters (http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/true-female-characters). Secondly, an episode about the way Sex is portrayed in games (http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/sex-in-games). Thirdly, an episode where they discuss Sexual Diversity in Games (http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/sexual-diversity) and the most relevant homosexual videogame character to date. You rarely see Intersex people as main characters, You rarely see people who have any slight physical deformity either. The slight physical deformity i can understand (although IMO it would add far more character to a person if they had a syndrome that didn't give them superpowers) But no Intersexed people? Or Asexuals for that matter, Very few of them. People who play video games are exposed to a world of Cisgendered Heterosexual vanity, and i find it appalling. Sexual diversity is still taboo in this medium. As is sexuality itself, the only games I played where I think they portrayed sex in an adult manner are Uncharted 2, the Mass Effect games and Witcher 2 (in huge contrast to the first Witcher, where you won a collectible card for each woman you did it with). | 2012-06-02 11:50:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452 |
| Male characters are either disposable cannon fodder or walking cliches like Solid Snake. +1 if they're shirtless. I dunno, I'm not sure men are portrayed any better than women in games. I think the big difference here is that male characters are still generally designed to appeal to the male playerbase. I think you'd be hard pushed to find a male character that was made purely with female players in mind. | 2012-06-02 12:05:00 Author: Kiminski Posts: 545 |
| (in huge contrast to the first Witcher, where you won a collectible card for each woman you did it with). I can just imagine that ending up like football stickers in the playground. Got, got, need, need, got, need, got, got, swap, need, got... | 2012-06-02 12:46:00 Author: Rabid-Coot  Posts: 6728 |
| I'd imagine a game featuring physically abnormal protagonists with sexualities which differ from the usual norm wouldn't sell fantastically. It's not about portraying people (namely women) as salacious objects for ridicule, it's not like the games were designed by a depraved team of lecherous perverts who dissolve into maniacal laughter as thread by thread, they remove the clothes of all simulated women they see before them. | 2012-06-02 13:36:00 Author: Ironface Posts: 432 |
| WARNING: SWEAR BOMBS IN LINKED VIDEOS I tried finding the original Shortpacked comic that shows a female cartoonist redrawing Batman into a female sex fantasy, instead of a male power fantasy. I want to let more obscure gender and sexual identities into the party, but crap. Only 2% of America is actually g.ay. (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-***-people-there-are/257753/) If we're assuming it's a naturally occurring phenomenon, and not something in the water, it stands to reason that the "otherly sexed/gendered" community is already represented, but it's poorly represented. There are plenty of black folks on TV - if I wanted more mulattoes on TV just to please me, I'd settle for people just showing that black people are different from one another, moment to moment. We don't all like the same music, and we can be nerds as well as ballers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owf6D2vfZqM In which a young black man mourns Ned Stark, played by white guy Sean Bean Ultimately, the way around this is by simply giving characters motivations, which many people here have said afore, and so I don't need to really pile on. Uncharted is a great example: a woman is writing the male power fantasy with believable character development. It's also a great bad example: in 3, the developers put a sinking ship level into the game because they could. Though Amy Lennig (sp?) does her kvetching offscreen, the making of videos make it clear she was like, "WTF sinking boat has to do with anything in the original story?" And they're all, "it'll be cool. Make it work. Game plots are porn plots: you need one, but it doesn't have to make sense." Annnnnnd that sentence is what's wrong with everything ever. Video games are about letting players exercise fantasies. Sex fantasies wouldn't be allowed into gamestop, and true role-playing is difficult. So Power Fantasy it is. Once something is a power fantasy, the designers do all the dumb crap that leads to this problem: abandon the plot, create "open world" possibilities that let you act like a psychopath, give the player base hot chicks to look at, etc. I don't have a problem with women wanting to be able to complete equally on the power fantasy playing field with men. But when a man is designing a male power fantasy, and a woman asks for parity, he's going to look at that parity through a lens. The best a woman is going to get from a sexist Japanese developer, on a day when he's feeling sensitive, is Bayonetta. Not bad, but she's not really helping expand the range. I'd be very curious to see what a female power fantasy game would look like. Maybe this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDqTwSO1DDc In which Ripley protects a child in a completely not sexytimes manner | 2012-06-02 14:29:00 Author: coyote_blue  Posts: 422 |
| I want to let more obscure gender and sexual identities into the party, but crap. Only 2% of America is actually g.ay. (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-***-people-there-are/257753/) If we're assuming it's a naturally occurring phenomenon, and not something in the water, it stands to reason that the "otherly sexed/gendered" community is already represented, but it's poorly represented. There are plenty of black folks on TV - if I wanted more mulattoes on TV just to please me, I'd settle for people just showing that black people are different from one another, moment to moment. We don't all like the same music, and we can be nerds as well as ballers. So because some characters are portrayed as Homosexual or Bisexual automatically means that the Asexual, Pansexual, Transgender, Androgynous and Chromosomally different communities are represented? Does it heck. | 2012-06-02 15:39:00 Author: Kern Posts: 5078 |
| Each link in this post of mine will redirect you to a different Extra Credits episode. Extra Credits is an excellent show that you all should watch if you're interested in knowing more about how the videogames industry and medium works. Love those videos! Never watched Extra Credits before... now I'm off to watch a whole marathon Thanks sev!I don't have a problem with women wanting to be able to complete equally on the power fantasy playing field with men. But when a man is designing a male power fantasy, and a woman asks for parity, he's going to look at that parity through a lens. The best a woman is going to get from a sexist Japanese developer, on a day when he's feeling sensitive, is Bayonetta. Not bad, but she's not really helping expand the range. True, there is still reportedly a massive divide in the industry itself - something like 5% of game programmers are female? And I think the total female workers in the industry was something like 20% for all job roles... (haven't checked most recent stats here, so this is a guess based on figures from a few years ago) Hard to get balanced representation in the games when those working behind the scenes are still, for the most part, men. I'm not saying that no man could write a decent female character, by the way. It's just more rare for the balance to be found. So because some characters are portrayed as Homosexual or Bisexual automatically means that the Asexual, Pansexual, Transgender, Androgynous and Chromosomally different communities are represented? Does it heck. I'd love to see more of human sexuality explored in video games, but explored in a good way. Not just chucking a male character on screen with a pink shirt and effeminate voice acting, and expect that your player will assume they're homosexual. I assume that particular jump for the industry is going to be a long way off, sadly. There's games out there that are starting it off, I suppose. But I hope that we'll see this explored more | 2012-06-02 17:41:00 Author: rialrees Posts: 1015 |
| Love those videos! Never watched Extra Credits before... now I'm off to watch a whole marathon Thanks sev! You're welcome Are you going to watch all 4 seasons in one sitting? o_o | 2012-06-02 17:59:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452 |
| So because some characters are portrayed as Homosexual or Bisexual automatically means that the Asexual, Pansexual, Transgender, Androgynous and Chromosomally different communities are represented? Does it heck. I'm saying no such thing. I'm suggesting that people in very small minorities - like me, as a mulatto - are sometimes going to have to settle for partial representations, or to make those representations ourselves. There are still places in America where people like me are called half-breed abominations. That isn't fair, but I can't expect mass market media to do my work for me, either. Geena Davis is doing some interesting work (http://www.seejane.org/programs/) along these lines to develop female role models. As for deformed role models, I can only say: Long Live King Tyrion Lannister. | 2012-06-02 19:31:00 Author: coyote_blue Posts: 422 |
| Why do we need sex in video games at all? It's totally destroyed the music and film industry. Why bother making good music, when a half naked moron singing a turd will make just as much profit? It's not just about that though, a bigger concern is the fact that kids will be playing them. I certainly don't have enough faith in the average parent to ensure that they don't. There's too much of it in the media already and it's not doing us any favours. Children should be bought up on wholesome values about love and family, not seedy exploitation. I find the whole concept really sad tbh. There's a reason under-age teens are having babies. | 2012-06-03 08:16:00 Author: Kiminski Posts: 545 |
| Why do we need sex in video games at all? It's totally destroyed the music and film industry. Why bother making good music, when a half naked moron singing a turd will make just as much profit? It's not just about that though, a bigger concern is the fact that kids will be playing them. I certainly don't have enough faith in the average parent to ensure that they don't. There's too much of it in the media already and it's not doing us any favours. Children should be bought up on wholesome values about love and family, not seedy exploitation. I find the whole concept really sad tbh. There's a reason under-age teens are having babies. The problem isn't the fact that sex is present in the media. The problem is that it's used in a demeaning and exploitative manner. Like they said in the Extra Credits episode whose link I posted, sexuality is a part of life. It defines and influences many of our interactions, relationships and behaviour. It can't be ignored and it surely shouldn't be repressed, for nothing good comes of sexual repression. It should be portrayed in a sensitive way, focusing more on the intimacy and love involved. Teenage pregnancy isn't a modern issue. A century ago, teens had babies. Five centuries ago, teens had babies. A thousand, two thousand, ten thousand years ago teens had babies. A thousand years from now on, teens will still have babies. They don't do it because they see it on TV or in games, they do it because it's human nature. Game companies aren't responsible for what games kids play, parents are. The little number on the box isn't just for decoration, it's the age restriction. Any parent can check their kids' games to see if what they are playing is age appropriate. The whole industry shouldn't censor itself just because some people aren't doing their duty as parents. Kids should be taught values, but they're going to learn it from the parents. You can't expect the entertainment media to educate your kids. Besides, it's really laughable when: *kid is playing a game where you shoot people in the face or decapitate them with swords and there's gore and blood all over the place* Parents: eh, let him have his fun. *kid is playing a game where there's naked people in it* Parents: OH MY GOD WHAT IS THIS FILTH! QUICK, COVER HIS EYES! According to most people, kids watching murder and violence is ok. But kids watching something natural like nudity or sex is the worst thing that can happen to them. Makes sense. | 2012-06-03 09:59:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452 |
| The problem isn't the fact that sex is present in the media. The problem is that it's used in a demeaning and exploitative manner... According to most people, kids watching murder and violence is ok. But kids watching something natural like nudity or sex is the worst thing that can happen to them. Makes sense. That's what I was getting at with love and family, I've nothing against children learning about sex. It's a wonderful thing, but there's a time and a place and I don't think a kid's first experience of it should be from a talentless slapper gyrating on MTV. Violence is just as bad, not to mention the smack talk that goes with it. Yes it is down to the parents, but sadly there's a whole lot of parents who simply don't give a ****. I'm not saying teenage pregnancies are the result of video games either. Games are pretty tame in the grand scheme of things, but I do think media plays a big part in things becoming the norm. Yes there were teen pregnancies thousands of years ago, 100's of years ago even, but I'm sure back then a 14 year old was more than capable of bringing up a child and teaching it all it needed to survive. It was a much simpler life back then and more accepted. This isn't the case any more and we really should know better. | 2012-06-03 11:33:00 Author: Kiminski Posts: 545 |
| I agree, women are portrayed terribly. I mean c'mon, I was playing Clubs on NHL, and my teams 6"2 Dman got taken out by some little woman. Women don't even play in the NHL. Terrible portrayal. ***** got kronwall'd later though, so s'all good. | 2012-06-03 15:29:00 Author: Unknown User  |
| Personally, I wanna know how female characters always run around in heels, from what I hear they're quite uncomfortable. ....Not that I've tried them on or something...to reach a high shelf.... don't look at me like that. I know there aren't too many cases of this but when I see it it kinda bugs me. I'm probably the only person who notices these kinda things. | 2012-06-06 04:33:00 Author: Megaboy93  Posts: 77 |
| Personally, I wanna know how female characters always run around in heels, from what I hear they're quite uncomfortable. ....Not that I've tried them on or something...to reach a high shelf.... don't look at me like that. I know there aren't too many cases of this but when I see it it kinda bugs me. I'm probably the only person who notices these kinda things. I can't remember of a female character that uses high heels, unless /context (spy game where they are disguised as high society people). | 2012-06-06 21:27:00 Author: gdn001  Posts: 5891 |
| I can't remember of a female character that uses high heels, unless /context (spy game where they are disguised as high society people). Bayonetta. But that's ok, because that's where she attaches two of her four guns. | 2012-06-07 00:05:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452 |
| I can't remember of a female character that uses high heels, unless /context (spy game where they are disguised as high society people). You mainly find them in fighting games like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter. I believe there are quite a few in Final Fantasy I THINK, hazey memory. | 2012-06-12 21:42:00 Author: Megaboy93 Posts: 77 |
| Yes, Lara Croft is famed as being one of the most highly *ahem* coveted female video game characters of all time, but this doesn't detract from the fact that she is: Incredibly intelligent, being fluent in many different languages, and presumably some sort of history in archeology and certainly having a history of good education. Competent with firearms and able to defend herself against enemies (as opposed to the usual "damsel in distress" stereotype) Inwardly strong in her attitude to obstacles - Rather than calling out for help, she runs in and solves the problem herself. And she has big hooters | 2012-06-13 04:48:00 Author: Unknown User |
| And she has big hooters Did you read this thread at all? | 2012-06-13 08:39:00 Author: Kern Posts: 5078 |
| You mainly find them in fighting games like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter. I believe there are quite a few in Final Fantasy I THINK, hazey memory. I can't think of any. Girls in games wear boots most of the time. | 2012-06-13 11:45:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454 |
| I can't think of any. Girls in games wear boots most of the time. I can think of a few. But I can't recall names for any of them. | 2012-06-14 08:23:00 Author: Megaboy93 Posts: 77 |
| Some women's rights groups are up in arms about an attempted rape scene in the new Tomb Raider. Obviously, because this is a video game, all the ill-educated hate mongers come out. They'll say nothing about the topic coming up in movies, and even TV soaps that are shown before the watershed. | 2012-06-14 09:26:00 Author: Ali_Star Posts: 4085 |
| Some women's rights groups are up in arms about an attempted rape scene in the new Tomb Raider. Obviously, because this is a video game, all the ill-educated hate mongers come out. They'll say nothing about the topic coming up in movies, and even TV soaps that are shown before the watershed. Wait so villains aren't allowed to be evil any more? | 2012-06-14 12:20:00 Author: Kern Posts: 5078 |
| Some women's rights groups are up in arms about an attempted rape scene in the new Tomb Raider. Obviously, because this is a video game, all the ill-educated hate mongers come out. They'll say nothing about the topic coming up in movies, and even TV soaps that are shown before the watershed. Apparently, people don't expect games with mature themes, even the ones rated +18. It doesn't even happen. The guy who attempted it took a knee to an area that's definitely not meant to be treated roughly. It's going to make the male gamers cringe even harder than the female ones when playing that scene. | 2012-06-14 12:51:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452 |
| It's also hilarious that these people mention women's rights when we're talking about a fictional polygonal character who kills men and animals on a daily basis. Quick, someone get PETA and Fathers for Justice on the line! | 2012-06-14 13:28:00 Author: Ali_Star Posts: 4085 |
| Wow, that is irrational on many levels. Just a rape scene doesn't make it prejudiced. Its how it is portrayed. And even then, gamers may not be as stupid as you think. Rape happens, that it shouldn't be treated as something trivial or justified is definitely right. But I don't understand their reaction to this. Just having something in a video game doesn't immediately mean everyone's minds will be infected with a desire to carry it out. | 2012-06-15 17:58:00 Author: PygmyOwl Posts: 1316 |
| Excuse me sir, But are you implying that we should get girlfriends instead? People these days. | 2012-06-18 09:14:00 Author: Charlemagne  Posts: 513 |
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