Archive: 40 posts

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Of all the levels I played, every one of them have infinite checkpoints. Everyone of them, all of them. And what do I think about it? Overused. You know, losing IS part of game. You think about it and try to correct your mistakes. After all, where the humility? If you get rid of the life loss, then you're ruining normal gameplay. I mean, come on. All those MM levels have those limited life checkpoints. If you don't know how to lose, then that's not normal gameplay. So come on guys, if you get rid of death, then you won't think about humility. And that won't build character.

2012-03-05 18:13:00 Author: Unknown User

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Yeah, but it is just a game. It's not really about building "character" And it doesn't really matter if there are infinite lifes or not, if you're stuck on an area you're stuck on an area. Like I always say, if you don't like infinite lifes, then restart the level when you die. Because some people prefer infinite lifes checkpoints.

2012-03-05 18:19:00 Author: TradeMarkSG Posts: 65

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At best you get one chance for a person to play your level, you really don't want the reason they can't finish to be finite lives...99.9% of players won't want to start over from the beginning and a large percentage will be upset. Only MM can really get away with not having infinite life checkpoints, their stuff has been play-tested enough to remove any confusing/rough spots and people are more willing to retry a story level than a community level (got to collect all those create materials!). It really depends on the type of level and what you are trying to achieve whether finite lives are actually beneficial. Here's a rare level that uses finite lives to good effect...it's one of my personal favorites: http://lbp.me/v/ymc4hs

2012-03-05 18:34:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

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the problem is almost no one likes restarting the whole level everytime just because you keep dieing in 1 spot. remember LBP is mostly for non hardcore players. and a lot of the players are kids who get bored easy or people who don't have all day to play just 1 level. a lot of people just want to have simple fun. *mew

2012-03-05 18:39:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261

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I hate Mm levels because of the limited life checkpoints, and if I lose all my lives while playing your level then it's unlikely that I will play it again. I didn't pay for your level and therefore I have no invested incentive to complete it, especially when there are probably a hundred other levels waiting in my queue that I will struggle to find the time to play between my long sessions in create mode. I will probably feel frustrated that my time was wasted on the progress lost, and although I'm unlikely to frown your level for that reason, you might not get my happy face or heart either.

2012-03-05 19:19:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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I'm not sure how many people appreciate lives since they seem to feature so rarely in games now. Done right it makes a game more balanced. In LBP before infinite lives were introduced you'd often have limited lives checkpoints right before impossible jumps and other stupid things like that, so maybe it's for the best nobody uses them now.

2012-03-05 19:34:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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While I understand the logic behind the use of Infinite Lives Checkpoints being used so much, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little disappointed that such an important element of challenge is now absent from levels. Don't get me wrong, some obstacles badly need infinite lives because of their nature, but I'd say giving infinite lives on a level with good difficulty balance is a shame, and creating a level where infinite life checkpoints are mandatory to completing the level is a case of poor level balance. Personally, I've never dumbed down any of my levels to suit lemmings, with the exception of a few obstacles that were exceptionally difficult. So, yeah, I side with the OP but I definitely get why infinite lives are so common.

2012-03-05 19:41:00 Author: Ostler5000 Posts: 1017

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I think many people use infinite life checkpoints to avoid negative feedback. There are a lot of people out there that would give terrible feedback on a level just because they had to start over or if they ran out of lives. It's the players own problem for not being able to face a challenge, but it's useful to avoid that negative feedback whenever possible.

2012-03-09 02:53:00 Author: Cobaltor Posts: 222

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I can understand the use of infinite checkpoints but a level can get away with having limited life checkpoints if it is fun (and a lot of the time (and not limited to being) short). Take for example my level "Sanctus Village Escape"... In this level the only checkpoint is the starting one (which is 6ish lives), the difficulty rises as you make progress but there is only 3 obstacle sections (Including the introduction to the 2 dangers at the beginning). and straight after you complete the 3rd section it immediately drops in difficulty to point zero. But anyway the point is, that if a level is long you are best off using infinite checkpoints after the midpoint has been reached in the level (play progress wise) because the closer people die to the ending of a level the less chance of them replaying it or giving a darn. If the level is short then you shouldn't need to use infinite checkpoints. Oh and if you have a boss level (Just the boss battle(s)) then I don't think you should use infinite checkpoints at all for the level.

2012-03-09 05:03:00 Author: Darkcloudrepeat Posts: 606

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If the level is short then you shouldn't need to use infinite checkpoints. Oh and if you have a boss level (Just the boss battle(s)) then I don't think you should use infinite checkpoints at all for the level. If the player loses all their lives in either of these situations...do you want them to try again? I'll assume yes, in which case it would behoove you to make it automatic with infinite life checkpoints. You *can* reset the state of the boss/level section you know... I can appreciate the purest point of view and wanting to provide challenge, etc. but due to the diverse nature of the community with people playing levels for different reasons as well as your level not being the only game in town, it's just not a good idea. It is far far better to reward playing well instead of punishing playing badly. Reward players with score/special effects/hidden areas...add a cool prize for acing the level, etc. Switching checkpoint type for different parts of the level is bad level design IMHO. Players are not always cognizant of when this happens, and they may perceive your design choice as a bug. Checkpoint usage should be uniform, I read this in checkpoints 101. NOTE: This really only applies to platformers, the "rules" for what is accepted for other genres are obviously completely different.

2012-03-09 14:04:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

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I honestly do miss having limited lives in the early days of lbp1, however I don't think its that big of a deal. However for some levels, I think it would be a good idea to have players actually choose the option to have infinite checkpoints or not. If they choose infinite checkpoints, obviously all checkpoints on the map will be infinite checkpoints. If they chose limited checkpoints, there will be no infinite checkpoints on the map, however you will be rewarded more at the end for choosing the harder option. This would be good for almost any level, and will add replay value, since maybe someone will want to try the level again without infinite lives. It also pleases pretty much everyone. The people who want to just see the entire level to the end wont have to worry about dying too much, and the people that want their challenge can have their challenge.

2012-03-09 19:29:00 Author: DreJ1212 Posts: 240

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You could always place both in the same level. The majority of the level might be limited (but I prefer double-ringed), and when there comes a difficult part, just place an infinite-life checkpoint right before it. So you have the challenge, but not the frustration. And it isn't too easy, because personally, I think infinite-life checkpoints in levels that don't really serve a challenge are a bit too easy. I could be wrong, I mean everyone has their own idea of a challenge. If your level is meant to be challenging and has been tested carefully, you can probably place limited. Some people out there like a challenge. It's exciting. There are those who might like to play it safe, more like trial-and-error. So if you really don't want to risk starting over, then you can place infinite-life checkpoints. It really depends on the player. Don't put what you think is easy--there's no telling what's "easy" or not. You could be the LBP Supreme Pro for all we know. So just think about the difficulty of your level. Don't be afraid to mix it up a bit.

2012-03-09 21:37:00 Author: Sackpapoi Posts: 1195

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Well when I create, I create because I want to create things, because its fun. However, another reason I create is so that other people can enjoy my work. Sure, a challenge is fun, but the point of my levels isnt to give a challenge, its to give a fun experience to someone and to show that I can make a good level that looks decent. Im a visuals-biased type of person, and I want people to see my entire level, because I worked hard on the whole thing to make it look good and play well, not for someone to stop halfway through because they lost all their lives.

2012-03-10 01:05:00 Author: ATMLVE Posts: 1177

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If the player loses all their lives in either of these situations...do you want them to try again? I'll assume yes, in which case it would behoove you to make it automatic with infinite life checkpoints. You *can* reset the state of the boss/level section you know... I can appreciate the purest point of view and wanting to provide challenge, etc. but due to the diverse nature of the community with people playing levels for different reasons as well as your level not being the only game in town, it's just not a good idea. It is far far better to reward playing well instead of punishing playing badly. Reward players with score/special effects/hidden areas...add a cool prize for acing the level, etc. That is more work needed for the boss, sure it could be easy if it is a simple design of a boss but it would be harder if the boss had destructible bits and different stages or at the least it would be fairly hard for me to accomplish something like resetting the state/stage/form of a boss, I just find it saves a world of trouble if you are to use lifed checkpoints. If a person can't complete a level because it is too hard then that's that, I'm not going to shout at them for failing or anything. The same applies to games, for example Ninja Gaiden (a game which I consider hard) I got stuck on a certain bit and I haven't played it since I got stuck on it (It also didn't help that my data got corrupted). But yes if you are actually aiming for more plays, hearts and you want people to actually look at your hard work then by all means make/alter a level so it suits a wider audience. It's just my preference in creating some levels, there is always a few levels that give an "OMG, it's my last life" kind of excitement as you play (or as you near the end of your play). I'm not saying I would put limited life checkpoints in ALL my levels, just the ones that are short.

2012-03-13 03:44:00 Author: Darkcloudrepeat Posts: 606

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Hah! My shooter will make use of limited lives. Completing a round before reaching 0 lives is the goal. It will be interesting to see how upset people can be about this.

2012-03-13 08:34:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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I thought the same thing, that i over use inf checkpoints. So i tried a double life checky and people kept complaining about it till i removed it in a rage.

2012-03-13 12:14:00 Author: gigglecrab Posts: 232

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I some times use the one lol can't remmber its name you just keep comeing back every time you die lol. I just use it for the funn of it

2012-03-28 06:13:00 Author: Lbphart3 Posts: 813

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Of all the levels I played, every one of them have infinite checkpoints. Everyone of them, all of them. And what do I think about it? Overused. You know, losing IS part of game. You think about it and try to correct your mistakes. After all, where the humility? If you get rid of the life loss, then you're ruining normal gameplay. I mean, come on. All those MM levels have those limited life checkpoints. If you don't know how to lose, then that's not normal gameplay. So come on guys, if you get rid of death, then you won't think about humility. And that won't build character. Not all levels have infinite life checkpoints. To be fair, I actually like infinite life checkpoints. Although I loved the content from LBP1, single-ring checkpoints (3 lives) are not what I like. There's this one creator named KawaiiRose, and she only uses single-ring checkpoints in her levels. The worst part about it is that her levels are just as hard as the Negativitron levels. Imagine if you could play a level just as hard as Where in the World is Avalon Centrifuge or Full Metal Rabbit with SINGLE-RING checkpoints. Does KawaiiRose not like infinite-life checkpoints? I know that infinite-life checkpoints have spoiled the community, but I leave negative reviews for every hard level with single-ring checkpoints if I was forced to start over.

2012-03-28 06:30:00 Author: Apple2012 Posts: 1408

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Not all levels have infinite life checkpoints. To be fair, I actually like infinite life checkpoints. Although I loved the content from LBP1, single-ring checkpoints (3 lives) are not what I like. There's this one creator named KawaiiRose, and she only uses single-ring checkpoints in her levels. The worst part about it is that her levels are just as hard as the Negativitron levels. Imagine if you could play a level just as hard as Where in the World is Avalon Centrifuge or Full Metal Rabbit with SINGLE-RING checkpoints. Does KawaiiRose not like infinite-life checkpoints? I know that infinite-life checkpoints have spoiled the community, but I leave negative reviews for every hard level with single-ring checkpoints if I was forced to start over. I don't understand why you give a negative review on a level for this, unless the level is literally just unfair. I understand that limited lives can be frustrating sometimes, but I believe that a creator places them into a level, he/she does it because he wants to give a player a challenge. These levels you're mentioning seem like they are meant to be challenging. So why give a negative review on a level thats purpose is to give you a challenging experience because its too challenging? In a way, its the same as giving a negative review on an rpg style level because its an rpg.

2012-03-28 07:09:00 Author: DreJ1212 Posts: 240

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As others said, most don't use non-infinite life checkpoints as they don't want boo's and/or you do only typically get 1 chance getting someone thru your door, if they run out of lives it's unlikely they'll start over. However, I don't exclusively use infinite life checkpoints myself and have gotten comments and rate downs over it. Infinites are mostly used, but from time to time a double instead because I don't like removing the possibility of failure completely, it takes something from the game IMO.

2012-03-28 07:13:00 Author: Masseyf Posts: 226

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Not all levels have infinite life checkpoints. To be fair, I actually like infinite life checkpoints. Although I loved the content from LBP1, single-ring checkpoints (3 lives) are not what I like. There's this one creator named KawaiiRose, and she only uses single-ring checkpoints in her levels. The worst part about it is that her levels are just as hard as the Negativitron levels. Imagine if you could play a level just as hard as Where in the World is Avalon Centrifuge or Full Metal Rabbit with SINGLE-RING checkpoints. Does KawaiiRose not like infinite-life checkpoints? I know that infinite-life checkpoints have spoiled the community, but I leave negative reviews for every hard level with single-ring checkpoints if I was forced to start over. Hmmm..... I just finished "Rayman" on the Vita. There were many levels of the game that were pretty tough. But, if you died you started the entire section over. This sense of "danger" gave me adrenaline. It made me work harder, and it made me enjoy the game more. Do you think.... just maybe.... the fact that LBP levels are "free" makes players value them less? The fact that there is a virtual "unlimited" supply of levels makes players give up too quickly? Back when we were building the "Hansel & Gretelbot" game, MM suggested we put in "finite" check points because it would enhance the game experience. After all... it certainly did enhance the gameplay for the story levels. Most of us were hesitant because people judge our community levels completely differently than the story levels... as well, they judge our levels differently than just about ANY commercial game in which the players are willing to put an effort forth. I, personally, treat them one and the same. I will work hard at a commercial game AND a LBP level, and I won't put a frowny face just because the level creator made an artistic decision to make the player "care" that he dies, and therefore try a bit harder not to. Not only that, but another thing to consider is it's impossible to balance a level for everyone. Each person has a different set of skills. After I released "Liberator", the first random person who played it beat it in 2 tries. Poms beat it in 2 tries. Vanemiera beat it on the first try. Loverice not only beat it in 2 tries... but got a higher score than "I'm" capable of. Yet, a child who doesn't have this level of skill can't beat it after 20 tries, frowny facing and giving up. "Hard" is completely subjective, and there really isn't any way in LBP to directly target genre's and difficulty - everything ends up in the same pile. Why punish a creator because your skill level is not up to snuff? Why not just say "hey, not my type of game. This is obviously not targeted at me" and quietly move on?

2012-03-28 18:42:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Do you think.... just maybe.... the fact that LBP levels are "free" makes players value them less? The fact that there is a virtual "unlimited" supply of levels makes players give up too quickly? I absolutely believe this. many people need some skin in the game to put up with even the most minor annoyance sadly. They are also very quick to conclude that the level is broken when presented a situation that may require an ounce of thought on how to proceed. I just finished "Rayman" on the Vita. There were many levels of the game that were pretty tough. But, if you died you started the entire section over. This sense of "danger" gave me adrenaline. It made me work harder, and it made me enjoy the game more. I contend that Rayman provides infinite lives, not a single life. You start the entire section over, but you don't get booted out to the Glade of Dreams when you die. It's that minor annoyance thing...having to actually choose to start all over is too much, if it's automatic you might rage a little, but you'll be more likely to continue. * NOTE: People will complain about having to redo large sections of a LBP level too...even in a Rayman rip-off. Not only do they insist on infinite checkpoints, they want them every five feet, that's where I draw the line.

2012-03-28 19:03:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

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When I play a level that doesn't have infinite lives and I run out of lives I don't want to have to repeat what I've just done.

2012-03-28 19:16:00 Author: ADS_LEGEND Posts: 140

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I contend that Rayman provides infinite lives, not a single life. You start the entire section over, but you don't get booted out to the Glade of Dreams when you die. It's that minor annoyance thing...having to actually choose to start all over is too much, if it's automatic you might rage a little, but you'll be more likely to continue. Yeah - I was thinking of it a bit differently. I was more comparing the danger of, let's say, a "Tricky Treasure". These "levels" require quite a bit of skill and challenge to get to the end. If you die, you totally start it over.... even if you were nearly 5 minutes in. But, the challenge produces a great and rewarding experience. If someone were to reproduce this feeling EXACTLY in LBP, even if it were brilliant the results would be a horrible rating. To me, running out of lives in LBP and being asked to "replay" is similar. Now, I would agree if it's a long, drawn out story-driven level with a piece 10 minutes in that requires incredible skill. No one wants to start THAT all over again. Or... an arcade game in which the whole POINT is the challenge to see how far you can get (such as Scramble). In the arcade, we would practice and keep inching forward a bit. We would get better and farther with each play. But, in LBP if you try to reproduce the same experience... the community kills it. I've been teaching my son to embrace difficulty, and enjoy the satisfaction of really accomplishing something. One of his favorite moments was when he completed Blorf's "Metal Revolution"... which is quite possibly the worst rated MM pick, only because of difficulty.

2012-03-28 20:38:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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It would be nice if you could re-add lives to limited checkpoints. That way, you could get 1-ups in levels. Either that, or be able to set the number of lives the checkpoint has. Also, it would be nice if the lives you lose would affect the other checkpoints, so that if you lose a life on a 3-life'd checkpoint, the next one you activate would only have 2 lives left. ...MAKE A TWEAKABLE CHECKPOINT, MM!!!

2012-03-28 21:43:00 Author: nk827 Posts: 193

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If someone were to reproduce this feeling EXACTLY in LBP, even if it were brilliant the results would be a horrible rating. Not in 100% agreement on this. I think a tricky treasure type level with solid visuals and a single infinite life checkpoint at the start would do fine. Finite lives in LBP would be like if in Rayman whenever you died that green thing popped up with the "Stay" or "Leave" option. When you're given a choice, you're going to consider it...why give the option? Would make an interesting experiment. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can create a challenging level with infinite check points (aka Rayman Origins). For LBP platforming levels finite checkpoints serve very little purpose. Mm was just wrong to suggest that these would benefit Hansel & Gretelbot in any way and to include them in story levels. The story levels all have prizes for acing the level, lives are already moot for the completionist; why make it harder for the casual folks to experience the level? Much of the problem with LBP2 community levels is not being able to properly set expectations with level categories/filter criteria, etc. * The tricky treasure levels felt like they only lasted about 30 seconds. I've been teaching my son to embrace difficulty, and enjoy the satisfaction of really accomplishing something. Must be nice to have a parent that considers beating a video game accomplishing something.

2012-03-28 22:03:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

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I learnt in LBP1 that people aren't playing to be challenged. Generally speaking. I don't know how many low ratings were followed by, "Too hard!". Of course, I've never understood why difficult=bad. Only hardcore LBP players appreciate a well designed level with increased difficulty. And an even smaller amount appreciate a level that requires you to think. The general LBP player wants to stroll through your level with very little risk. I try to make engaging gameplay rather than difficult. I spend time making a level so people can play it, and hopefully enjoy it. I don't want them to throw their controller in frustration, but at the same time, I don't want it so easy that they just stroll through. My aim when creating gameplay, is to give the player a sense of accomplishment. Infinite checkpoints don't mean that the player didn't still require the resolve to keep trying until they passed the obstacle, it just means I didn't punish them for not being able to do it in a certain amount of tries. I think infinite checkpoints are fine and are the creators way of picking the player up and putting them on the bike until they get through it that part of the road.

2012-03-28 23:51:00 Author: CYMBOL Posts: 1230

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Here's some actual feedback we received from MM when they reviewed Hansel & Gretelbot during the beta: "A lot of the checkpoints in the levels appear to be infinite life checkpoints, players love a challenge, maybe change some of them for double or even single checkpoints" Obviously they hadn't experienced feedback from a community level creators standpoint. As mentioned earlier, I think the "feeling" you get from danger.... the anxiety of not succeeding.... has typically been essential in a good game. I agree that in many cases infinite checkpoints work well, at the same time if you don't have the danger you're missing something. This "danger" can be created in different ways - it depends on the game. If Super Mario Galaxy had unlimited lives, and you were fighting a boss - there's very little satisfaction in beating him. However... the LBP2 community is different. I would even argue at this point it's FAR different than it was a couple of years ago. I'm starting to get the impression that most players are having a difficult time because it's hard to work a dual-shock controller while using one of your hands to disperse of the latest snot buildup.... I hope we haven't gotten to the point where the solution to every level is ALWAYS infinite checkpoints. We're going to turn young gamers into a bunch of woosies.

2012-03-29 02:15:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Of all the levels I played, every one of them have infinite checkpoints. Everyone of them, all of them. And what do I think about it? Overused. You know, losing IS part of game. You think about it and try to correct your mistakes. After all, where the humility? If you get rid of the life loss, then you're ruining normal gameplay. I mean, come on. All those MM levels have those limited life checkpoints. If you don't know how to lose, then that's not normal gameplay. So come on guys, if you get rid of death, then you won't think about humility. And that won't build character. there's nothing stopping you making levels without infinite checkpoints... and losing bubbles from your overall score is a punishment for dying.

2012-03-29 02:44:00 Author: GribbleGrunger Posts: 3910

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I prefer my levels with no checkpoints. That gives a real challenge. Oh, and it's even more challenging when there are no entrances or scoreboards either.

2012-03-29 02:51:00 Author: Kalawishis Posts: 928

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LBP community levels are usually short and cost nothing to play but can take months or years to create. Most players seem to be easily annoyed by any imperfections so they quit the level and rate it down. The infinite life checkpoint is just another tool to keep players happy. Also if you run out of lives with a limited life checkpoint in a level, use the player glitch to reset all checkpoints for infinite lives and you can ace the level even if you already died.

2012-03-29 09:58:00 Author: Monster Posts: 180

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We need infinite checkpoints to balance out the mediocre gameplay design in user based creations. Why should the player be punished for enduring a sub-par level design? The golden approach to LBP (or any game) is "easy to play, difficult to master". Players can go for the ace or a high score if they want a challenge. That's why we have bubble combos, and why we lose points when we die.

2012-03-29 11:14:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

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We need infinite checkpoints to balance out the mediocre gameplay design in user based creations. You reminded me of this review I got on Gilded Platforms from nv132. "the visuals are great (like all of your levels) and some of the obstacles were fun and original, but others were way too annoying to be fun. like all of your levels (again) the gameplay always has some point which ruins the whole level..." Apparently I have never managed to create a level without some horrible flaw in it. The review is a little extreme IMHO, but it's not totally off-base.

2012-03-29 14:48:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

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No one remembers the golden era of gaming where if you died you had to start at the start of the level or mid-way? Then again, the controls for those games weren't exactly... um "poor".

2012-04-02 03:00:00 Author: PPp_Killer Posts: 449

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No one remembers the golden era of gaming where if you died you had to start at the start of the level or mid-way? Then again, the controls for those games weren't exactly... um "poor". yes, i remember those years and to be honest, i don't see them as golden. the only reason they made games like that is to extend the play times because games like Manic Minor or Attic Attack were quite small really

2012-04-02 12:04:00 Author: GribbleGrunger Posts: 3910

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I think having the infinite life checkpoint is god because some people make their stages too hard, and most of the time people will die and they will not want to start all over from the begining if they lose all of their lives from the basic checkpoint

2012-04-03 14:30:00 Author: star the shi tzu Posts: 33

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the infinite life checkpoint is god It is?!

2012-04-03 15:39:00 Author: lemurboy12 Posts: 842

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yes, i remember those years and to be honest, i don't see them as golden. I think their called golden because games were growing and developing so fast in those days (because there was a lot of room for improvement ). It's a bit deluded to attach nostalgic value to the bad design choices from those days, IMHO.

2012-04-04 13:27:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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In LBP 1 I loved MM when they introduced infinite checkpoints. I hate having to start levels again from the very beginning, especially if they are long. I know they are over-used but I prefer them to checkpoints that will restart the level if you die a certain amount of times.

2012-04-05 21:22:00 Author: SkaterOllie795 Posts: 145

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We could use a global setting for how many points every player loses when dying (numerical or percentage). To compensate for infinite lives.

2012-04-05 23:25:00 Author: gdn001 Posts: 5891

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