Archive: 32 posts

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Hi folks, Most of you are probably already familiar with destroying and emitting segments of your level to bypass the thermo, but what I am curious about is what the real limits of this method are. For instance, the space a published level takes up on Mm's server, the loading time, PS3 memory or HD space allocation or any other quirks that might come from hiding lots of stuff inside emitters. Any hard numbers? My goal is not to stuff as much as I can into a level, but my plans do end up to what I estimate as at least two full thermometers. Is there anyone with hands-on experience about this who wants to share it?

2011-11-17 14:03:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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two thermos are easy from what i've heard. i'm new to this too but one tip i can pass along, because i also asked a similar question, is cover the section with holographic material and then destroy that. it was originally called 'infinite' but i doubt that. you could also use my technique of using sticker material and photos, which i'm going to use in my next level

2011-11-17 22:38:00 Author: GribbleGrunger Posts: 3910

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First things first, its a glitch. Which means, it can cause issues. If you use the glitch, you accept any issues that go along with that. My latest level, The Explorers (which I'm releasing tomorrow, so you can check that out to see how much I was able to fit in). Has about 1 and 3/4 thermos. A typical full level is about 500-700 kb. My Explorers level is about 1,500 kb. Thing is, as the thermo kept getting to the top again, the level would start glitching. Certain areas began having strange glitches, a floor being invisible, or some strange random occurrence. The other night, checkpoints decided to randomly switch. I got these stablized by cutting things out. My biggest issue was I wasn't planning on doing this, so, going back after the level was a half crests was a major pain since the scenery is so intertwined. There is also the danger of what I call "Thermo Addiction". That's when you, get a little space back from using the method, and immediately fill that space in, and just need space for one last piece. So, you use it again, and think, wow, look at all that space! And it keeps going, and now your level is glitching... Just be careful of letting your addiction get out of control, because it will come back to bite you in some fashion. My advice, don't use it. If you do, keep it to only the minimum. It's much easier to pick a thermo busting object to emit and destroy, rather than whole sections of your level. Hope that was a tiny bit helpful.

2011-11-18 00:04:00 Author: CYMBOL Posts: 1230

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First things first, its a glitch. Which means, it can cause issues. If you use the glitch, you accept any issues that go along with that. My latest level, The Explorers (which I'm releasing tomorrow, so you can check that out to see how much I was able to fit in). Has about 1 and 3/4 thermos. A typical full level is about 500-700 kb. My Explorers level is about 1,500 kb. Thing is, as the thermo kept getting to the top again, the level would start glitching. Certain areas began having strange glitches, a floor being invisible, or some strange random occurrence. The other night, checkpoints decided to randomly switch. I got these stablized by cutting things out. My biggest issue was I wasn't planning on doing this, so, going back after the level was a half crests was a major pain since the scenery is so intertwined. There is also the danger of what I call "Thermo Addiction". That's when you, get a little space back from using the method, and immediately fill that space in, and just need space for one last piece. So, you use it again, and think, wow, look at all that space! And it keeps going, and now your level is glitching... Just be careful of letting your addiction get out of control, because it will come back to bite you in some fashion. My advice, don't use it. If you do, keep it to only the minimum. It's much easier to pick a thermo busting object to emit and destroy, rather than whole sections of your level. Hope that was a tiny bit helpful. darn it to hell and darnation. in my enthusiasm to find out how you do this i didn't think of the obvious you just mentioned at the end. I COULD HAVE JUST EMITTED THE TWO WATERFALL SECTIONS!!! i'm a flipping fool... why on earth wasn't i thinking straight? this piece of innocuous advice to a fellow creator has saved me hours and hours of work. edit: i love the way the asterisks suggest i put in obscene words there lol.

2011-11-18 00:15:00 Author: GribbleGrunger Posts: 3910

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darn it to hell and darnation. in my enthusiasm to find out how you do this i didn't think of the obvious you just mentioned at the end. I COULD HAVE JUST EMITTED THE TWO WATERFALL SECTIONS!!! i'm a flipping fool... why on earth wasn't i thinking straight? this piece of innocuous advice to a fellow creator has saved me hours and hours of work. edit: i love the way the asterisks suggest i put in obscene words there lol. Yeah, LBP is strange, A simple LBP object may take up half a thermo piece. For instance, I wanted a log that you have to run across. But the log took up half a thermo bar. I put a tag sensor and changed the range to 5,000. Labeled the tag sensor, " Destroy log" and connect it to a destroyer. So, before you get to that part, the log is emitted. Later in the level, I have a player sensor connected to the "Destroy log" tag. That way, I get my thermo back for later in the level when something else is emitted. Just remember, the player must not be able to get back to that destroyed section.

2011-11-18 02:25:00 Author: CYMBOL Posts: 1230

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Just remember, the player must not be able to get back to that destroyed section. yep, that's why i'm saving it for my next level. the only thing wrong with my level now is the fact that some material goes missing at the end and it seems fruitless endeavour to add more in just to solve a small problem. i hope the community forgive me and i hope my first offering was enough to encourage people to check out my next level. i wish skyrim hadn't come out!!! that gaames eating my time up

2011-11-18 03:15:00 Author: GribbleGrunger Posts: 3910

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My saved level has 5000 KB, and took around 20 minutes to publish( ehhh yeah, ridiculous). The testers were able to load the level, but thats because my entire level is emitted, meaning upon entry, you have only 5 thermo taken up--but I am to scared to stuff anything more into it. With that said, You will run into a ton of frustration creating--take my word for it. Unless your level benefits with more than just faster loading times, you are better off separating it into separate stages. I encountered about 3 different technical issues Stage one: Failed Emits lowered the thermo via more glitching Stage Two: Freezing whenever the stage is rewinded Lowerd the thermo via more glitching Stage Three: Level wont even load in create mode, and ps3 will freeze. Forcing you to go back to stage two and so on. Personally, I think you are fine at 2000, in comparison, though I wouldnt try to glitch to much. Theres definantly a limit. Hope this helps Edit: For what its worth, if you reach stage two, it will still work in playmode, unless you overload the stage with too many emits, which is really easy to do. I also made more success by making my own loading screen, that will separate the emits and deletions with about 2 to 3 seconds. It helps the level not overheat and emit properly. I was able to get the stage without any of the above issues, but such takes time and experimentation. I'd recommend saving multiple stages of the same level, so you will never hit stage 3, without being able to go back. But again, its probably best to avoid this technique if it isnt an essential construction or design of the stage. And even then use discretion.

2011-11-18 03:26:00 Author: Rpg Maker Posts: 877

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I wouldn't consider it too much of a glitch as it is just compressing big things in a level.. The same rules apply and if something that would normally overheat the level is emitted.. it usually will fail. If you can keep the thermo around.. 3/4ish throughout the emitting and destroying, there should be no problem. I use this technique all the time and personally think it is way better than using level links if used well.. Just destroy anything off screen, that is no longer accessible or not needed, especially if there are chips on it.

2011-11-18 07:18:00 Author: Dortr Posts: 548

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Thank you for all your shared experiences so far. This is very insightful. I have had my fair share of glitches already; emitters emitting into the wrong thin layer. I fixed this by reducing thermo a bit further and by glueing thick pieces of invisible holo to these objects to hold them into the correct layer. As the level grows in size I am now experiencing guest players disconnecting as I take them with me from Create to Play. They are still able to play the level, though, be it on their own. From Dortr's reply I am wondering whether some glitches are being caused by an overflowing thermometer as stuff gets emitted. I learned already that it isn't a good idea to stuff that thermo full and then rely on emitting to stack stuff on top of that. You basically NEED a clear piece of thermo in order to emit a segment; so it is a matter of replacing content, not adding more to it. Now that that is clear, here is what I am working on. It is a vertically scrolling fast paced shooter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqqLZaVMlug); all enemies, bullets, weaponry, background panels, ground targets and even the ship are emitted on demand. Once they are out of view they are instantly destroyed to clear thermo. Each zone would have between 10 and 20 separate panels. I have planned 5 zones into one level because, apart from score, the arsenal that the player builds up needs to be transferred across zones. If I would put zones into separate levels the arsenal would be lost. (Rant: it is a pity that Mm does not seem to acknowledge that - with only score data abridging level links - development of other game genres than that of LBP, the score based platformer, is mostly limited to single-level minigames. I would argue that expanding the logic toolkit with something that saves custom values across levels brings more potential to creators than anything else! Forget extra musical instrument, sticker material and speed sensors; they are great, too, but pale in comparison. Or do you folks think this will cater to a too small group of creators?) I think I'll do some testing tonight and measure what approximate filesize a zone would end up to be. Perhaps, in the end, I will have little choice but to zones into separate levels. I'd hate to sacrifice essential gameplay elements for it... I mean, I have not started on any RPG levels for a good reason.

2011-11-18 10:03:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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The first two of the three Printz levels came out at about 1300 and 1400kb respectively. The third was around 1800. I think that equates to between 1 1/2 thermos and 2 thermos on average. (Mostly due to object complexity and game objects being used. I probably could have refined that a bit but didn't want to sacrifice visuals) In the first two, all the sets were permanent, but the sackbots were all emitted, as were many of the collectable items and a few bit characters. These were the elements that took up most of my thermo, so they had to be in the level only when required. This made things a little dodgy as the level involves a lot of backtracking, so rather than permanently destroying items I had them selectively emitting in relation to the players position (as mentioned by CYMBOL). I think 2 thermos is the maximum I would ever reach to (btw - OUCH Rpg - I don't envy you!!!) Partly because of the pain in the backside when it came to editing, but also because of the risk to player's profiles, and the extra loading time (i found it made a small difference to my levels, but that difference was noticeable). Not sure that there's anything I can add really, except to echo what Dortr says (which I know you've already seen Kris) about reserving space in your thermo. The thermo in Printz always started out between 3/4 and 1, but after the initial custcenes and destructions were triggered, it would drop to 3/4 and stay there for the remainder of the level. It seemed to work pretty well.

2011-11-18 10:48:00 Author: rialrees Posts: 1015

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from what i understand. always make sure the thermo is never higher then 70% full at any given time, that includes while you are emitting things. so make sure to destroy before emitting. and after whatever is emitted make sure it again don't go past 70% full. at least from my testing, again as long as it never goes past 70% even for a moment, it all should work just fine. but i'm no super expert on this subject, i'm just telling what i've heard and seen for myself. *mew

2011-11-18 11:32:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261

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btw - OUCH Rpg - I don't envy you!!! Among many things, what I admire about the Printz series is that you created an RPG with an inventory system that is not obstructed in any way by being emptied in between levels. And I don't mean it as an aspect of LBP's inner design that one can put up with when playing your level, I mean it as that your RPG is designed to benefit from the occasional inventory wipe! Every item that goes in there serves a purpose within that section of the series and one would not have to backtrack from one level to a previous one because you missed an essential item. Currently, this self-containment is the only practical way to deal with LBP's limitations, but you made your level's gameplay utilize that perfectly. This approach is what I have recommended to people on these forums before when they mentioned the RPG they are working on. One would have to design sections and story chapters in a way that inventory wipes make total sense; like the protagonist suffering a shipwreck and stranding on the shore with nothing left but his health, having to start anew. The first two of the three Printz levels came out at about 1300 and 1400kb respectively. The third was around 1800. I think that equates to between 1 1/2 thermos and 2 thermos on average. (Mostly due to object complexity and game objects being used. I probably could have refined that a bit but didn't want to sacrifice visuals) There is this aspect of thermo conservation I am wondering about: suppose an object like the basketball takes up X amount of thermo and you have two separate objects that contain this ball. If you store them inside emitters, will the ball be counted once in memory or twice? Normally, if you have two balls on the stage, the first occurence is what boosts thermo, but any subsequent instances do not take up so much space. Suppose you create an object Q and set up two emitters to emit that object using the capture option. You don't remove the original object. Now, is the memory usage in total 1xQ? Then, remove the original; the emitters will still emit an instance of object Q, but is there still a reference somewhere in memory to the original or instead the memory usage is now 2xQ? And if there indeed is an internal reference, what if you take one emitter out of the level, store it on another crater, restart your PS3 and place it back again in one level with the other emitter... is the memory usage 2xQ now?

2011-11-18 11:53:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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There is this aspect of thermo conservation I am wondering about: suppose an object like the basketball takes up X amount of thermo and you have two separate objects that contain this ball. If you store them inside emitters, will the ball be counted once in memory or twice? Normally, if you have two balls on the stage, the first occurence is what boosts thermo, but any subsequent instances do not take up so much space. Hmm, I didn't look much into it in great detail, so I'm not sure I have much to tell you. My instinct is that the objects were counted once, but I really can't be sure: I may have actually cheated this by having the objects present in the level elsewhere (in theme and decoration mostly) so that the thermo wouldn't leap, just come up a notch to allow for a new object & yet more corners. I know this probably wont help you much as all of your sets will be destroyed, sorry!

2011-11-18 11:57:00 Author: rialrees Posts: 1015

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How do you know the size of your levels (in terms of kb)?

2011-11-18 12:22:00 Author: Ali_Star Posts: 4085

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How do you know the size of your levels (in terms of kb)? When I create a backup of my level, the size of it is displayed in the PS3 filebrowser. I find it hard to tell, though, what counts as 'a lot'.

2011-11-18 12:26:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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Hmmmm, well in that case, it's my first level which takes up the most space - over 800kb. This is strange, because (back on the topic at hand) my Sackleships level uses a lot of emitting and deleting, yet in terms of file size, it's only just bigger than my latest level, in which the thermo is less than 3/4 full. I think the size of the file may influenced greatly by the amount of materials perhaps, since my first level uses quite a few different materials.

2011-11-18 12:45:00 Author: Ali_Star Posts: 4085

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Hmmmm, well in that case, it's my first level which takes up the most space - over 800kb. This is strange, because (back on the topic at hand) my Sackleships level uses a lot of emitting and deleting, yet in terms of file size, it's only just bigger than my latest level, in which the thermo is less than 3/4 full. I think the size of the file may influenced greatly by the amount of materials perhaps, since my first level uses quite a few different materials. Thermo usage is not the same as file/memory size, though they are somehow related. Take a small object, set up an emitter to repeat it a thousand times, save the level. The file size is very small, yet when you let it run the thermo will very quickly fill up. I suppose the thermometer is an indication of what a level can contain before the performance of the game will suffer; with more complex objects, a lot of lighting or textures (different materials) this might be the case quickly. So, what makes up the file size of a level? The textures, models, etc. of objects are not stored inside the level; references to them are. Exceptions to this are of course custom stickers (generated by the paint tool and photo tool) and shape data of objects you have drawn. Logic patterns, sampled sound in magic mouths and text in mouths and notes should be regarded as unique data as well. If my presumptions are correct then a level with two dozen materials and hardly any drawn shapes could take up less file size - yet a lot of thermo - than a level with lots of drawn shapes using one material.

2011-11-18 13:30:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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Thank you for all your shared experiences so far. This is very insightful. From Dortr's reply I am wondering whether some glitches are being caused by an overflowing thermometer as stuff gets emitted. I learned already that it isn't a good idea to stuff that thermo full and then rely on emitting to stack stuff on top of that. You basically NEED a clear piece of thermo in order to emit a segment; so it is a matter of replacing content, not adding more to it. Perhaps, in the end, I will have little choice but to zones into separate levels. I'd hate to sacrifice essential gameplay elements for it... I mean, I have not started on any RPG levels for a good reason. It probably should be said, the level I saved was just a test for this very subject. And actually, the things like the RPG inventory and stat tracking only take up about 6-8 thermo(a little higher than 5 now checking). In my experience, it is about controlling how fast things are being emitted, how close they are together, how large and of course making sure everything of the deleted object is deleted. All of my menus are separated and can take up to 50-60 thermo on their own, so a lot adds up. Which brings me back to why a custom loading screen actually works( sort of an illusion of deleting and emitting) Though in my case, its necessary--even if I have found ways to compress it since then. Another solution, was having nothing in the level initially( so empty level with emitters. I think I can get away with it, because it its a Turnbased JRPG, but something like a side scrolling shooter, I worry about the fast pace of the game; The emitters would shoot off faster than it would in my game. I think this can work with 2000 KB if you carefully use emitters, but like I said, save multiple versions of the stage. I almost had to redo my rpg a third time because I did reach the point where I could not even load the stage to create in.( It would load, but the screen would just flash white and nothing would happen causeing the ps3 to freeze) There is this aspect of thermo conservation I am wondering about: suppose an object like the basketball takes up X amount of thermo and you have two separate objects that contain this ball. If you store them inside emitters, will the ball be counted once in memory or twice? Normally, if you have two balls on the stage, the first occurence is what boosts thermo, but any subsequent instances do not take up so much space. From what I understand, this is what I am doing. I lost track of how many bars of thermo I am using honestly. I have to hide emitters in side other emitted objects, and the saved object will take up the memory cost of all the emitters inside of it from what I believe ( If it didnt, I would wonder why the stage came out to 5000 KB)--but there are not any penalties on the thermo, which is really the point of this technique. (btw - OUCH Rpg - I don't envy you!!!) Partly because of the pain in the backside when it came to editing, but also because of the risk to player's profiles, and the extra loading time (i found it made a small difference to my levels, but that difference was noticeable). Yea, creating just was not fun any more and I had to take a step backwards for a while. I am lucky my profile came away unharmed from all the experiments. Heres the interesting thing about the loading times though. The testers experiences with the loading times on my 5000 KB test were inconsistent. One said it only took 14 seconds to load, some said a minute and one said 2. Its hard to say that emits speed up loading times--or even effect them, but given the amount of KB actually in the level, I am surprised it only came out to 2 minutes at max. With that said "kids dont try this at home" is appropriate. I am reducing my level into separate levels, because one RPG on one level just isnt going to work out in the end. To many risk, frustrations, and time wasted imo

2011-11-18 15:26:00 Author: Rpg Maker Posts: 877

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With that said "kids dont try this at home" is appropriate. I am reducing my level into separate levels, because one RPG on one level just isnt going to work out in the end. To many risk, frustrations, and time wasted imo You are an 'RPG maker' so I suppose it will not come as a surprise when I say that the elephant in the room of LBP RPG development is not the technical limitations (they exist, they are big and they matter) but the gameplay and the audience itself. Hear me out. There are very few people who will sit through a lengthy adventure of any kind on LBP. It doesn't even need to be an RPG. Watch any genre of level series and you will see that the first episode will receive most attention and the further it goes the less people play it. People can't be bothered to play hours in a row on one series (let alone one level). Most people that do make it to the end are, I suspect, folks who played through the series with intervals (either by choice or because the segments in the series were published gradually). Just check out the Hansel & Grettelbot series and compare the stats on the first and last episode. Now, take an RPG like Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger. The originals can keep you occupied for days if not longer. If you don't have a way to save your game and continue later where you left, nobody is going to finish it. That goes for LBP even more; an audience who is firstly interested in platformer games (that is why they bought LBP). My opinion (and I'd love your take on this!) is that an RPG (or any genre of level that demands a lot of time invested) in LBP needs to have the following properties: - a way to quit and come back later to continue where left off (either a password system or standalone segments where you start anew, trying to unlock the next segment) - a captivating premise to grab and hold a player's attention and make him want to return to the series to finish it With that last point I don't mean that if your series' stats are skewed that you are failing, but I do mean that creators of level series have to put in a an increasing amount of effort with each episode compared to creators of single, unique levels. /offtopic

2011-11-18 16:22:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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You are an 'RPG maker' so I suppose it will not come as a surprise when I say that the elephant in the room of LBP RPG development is not the technical limitations (they exist, they are big and they matter) but the gameplay and the audience itself. Hear me out. There are very few people who will sit through a lengthy adventure of any kind on LBP. It doesn't even need to be an RPG. Watch any genre of level series and you will see that the first episode will receive most attention and the further it goes the less people play it. People can't be bothered to play hours in a row on one series (let alone one level). Most people that do make it to the end are, I suspect, folks who played through the series with intervals (either by choice or because the segments in the series were published gradually). Just check out the Hansel & Grettelbot series and compare the stats on the first and last episode. Now, take an RPG like Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger. The originals can keep you occupied for days if not longer. If you don't have a way to save your game and continue later where you left, nobody is going to finish it. That goes for LBP even more; an audience who is firstly interested in platformer games (that is why they bought LBP). My opinion (and I'd love your take on this!) is that an RPG (or any genre of level that demands a lot of time invested) in LBP needs to have the following properties: - a way to quit and come back later to continue where left off (either a password system or standalone segments where you start anew, trying to unlock the next segment) - a captivating premise to grab and hold a player's attention and make him want to return to the series to finish it With that last point I don't mean that if your series' stats are skewed that you are failing, but I do mean that creators of level series have to put in a an increasing amount of effort with each episode compared to creators of single, unique levels. /offtopic I guess Im not sure how to answer this, but that last remark of my previous post was really for any level of any genre, just more commonly Rpgs, tend to use more data--which you know of course. Its not so much about length, I mean the 5000 KB test for instance, only was about 10-15 minutes worth of gameplay. But in answer to what an rpg needs in LBP2... honestly, all an rpg needs is vision. I played Nobody's rpg on MM picked levels, and not saying its an incomplete RPG or anything( I liked it), but the stats/equipment in that game didnt matter, as it was an hour long, and only had one battle( which came before any of the shops or purchases), and of course it was MM picked. What I learned is creating an RPG in LBP2, all it needs is to bring nostalgia in order to be successful. Most people come to my pod and are blown away by the simplicity of characters bashing each other in turnbased fashion--almost ignoring the complex damage figures and logical calculations that are popping up and making the battle work and causing the characters to level up etc. I think those two points you made are what I was thinking when I first begun creating, but its hard to say its true, given the reception a lot of less featured rpgs get and the fact I havent published one yet to bring a proper analytical comparison. I mean I get what you are saying--and your right; Perhaps, adding stats/saving does make it more complex than it needs to be. For me, its just about making the best RPG I can, and I see it more like personal art work, rather than an innovation to the community. I did design the game with that in mind that most people wont make it to the end, thus the beginning doesnt start off slow and tries to keep it very interesting to cater the non rpg-crowd. But there are tons of rpg fans out there, at least 20 I know will finish, and that's good enough for me. :star: Thats really off topic though lol And I do hope you find the right techniques to use to bring your shooter out successfully. I certainly didnt want anyone else to encounter that problems and frustrations( and potential risk) I ran into because this thermo exploit is very tempting to see just how much you can fit in.

2011-11-18 17:37:00 Author: Rpg Maker Posts: 877

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As a fellow creator who used the thermo-emitting technique up to its max, I found out the ways of its uses. I may be repeating several things that have already been said but I'll go ahead anyways. I used this to add extra thermo to my jak and daxter level, all together, its roughly 2 1/2 thermos. The entire level runs on emitters. A few things to note, the size of what is being emitted, as well as the amount of what makes up the object affects how much it takes on thermo, my emitted parts were about 5 materials and they were kept as uncomplicated as possible, what you need to understand is that having too much variety emitted at once (material, mm objects, complexity etc. ) will fill the thermo up needlessly. Also like what was said before in earlier post's, the thermo needs room left to allow the objects to fill it, so having the thermo set at 90% is bad unless you know and have tested that the level works ok. (In my situation I had it at roughly 94%, I was able to have it run alright with it so high by having my emitters on hologram and when the emitter was no longer needed, I had the holo it was on destroyed, thus making room on the thermo, plus my sections that were first emitted were smaller than the later ones). Room is needed also for sackpeople which is crucial, the amount of players in the level and the complexity of their costumes affect thermo, my jak level will not work unless only one person is playing, needless to say, if the level is multiplayer, test it with others so you know if your thermo is low enough to support a full party, and yes it will take forever to publish but hey it's worth the wait Others might disconnect if they try to follow you into the level in create mode as well. Setting the emitters to emit 1 at a time also keeps the thermo low as well, if it's for a set piece. Other than those few tips, I think I covered all I can remember, hope it helps you out dude

2011-11-19 06:59:00 Author: damaz10 Posts: 771

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Room is needed also for sackpeople which is crucial, the amount of players in the level and the complexity of their costumes affect thermo, my jak level will not work unless only one person is playing, needless to say, if the level is multiplayer, test it with others so you know if your thermo is low enough to support a full party, and yes it will take forever to publish but hey it's worth the wait Others might disconnect if they try to follow you into the level in create mode as well. Setting the emitters to emit 1 at a time also keeps the thermo low as well, if it's for a set piece. Thanks! I am glad to hear this is not an isolated incident; oddly, my thermo is at 65% and switching from Create to Play disconnects all guests that are with me. My level will be strictly single player (any others present will create online multiplayer lag that slows down the action a lot), but it is a bit silly that this is how the level it is enforcing this rule.

2011-11-19 08:54:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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this thread has been really helpful to me too, so thanks everyone. i intend to emit detail rather than sections of levels. i was thinking of making 'skins' that emit onto a simple material such as cardboard. if you use sticker panel material you can do this easily. for instance, in my level i have two sections with waterfalls and both give me the 'too complex' warning. if i put most of that complexity on a sticker panel and then emit over a material, i can easily use the emit/destroy idea and the advantage (i believe) will be that i will be able to allow the player to return to previous sections because i won't be destroying the structure. i'll also be using my photo/sticker trick. wouldn't it be handy if you could right click an object/material and find out it's thermo use quota.

2011-11-19 16:37:00 Author: GribbleGrunger Posts: 3910

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Thanks! I am glad to hear this is not an isolated incident; oddly, my thermo is at 65% and switching from Create to Play disconnects all guests that are with me. My level will be strictly single player (any others present will create online multiplayer lag that slows down the action a lot), but it is a bit silly that this is how the level it is enforcing this rule. Yes it will happen, think of how much the ps3 has to load to run the level, add more players and it's just frustrating for everyone because of the induced lag. Not knowing how much your levels thermo is at when in playmode is a challenge, my advice would be to test it in create mode to see how the thermo reacts to the emitted objects. Your level will have constantly changing emitters I'm assuming so having the level as lag free as possible is a good thing, and to add to removing lag during playmode, like I said above, destroying the emitters after they are no longer needed is like deleting them in create mode, it removes what's not needed anymore and frees up thermo thus reducing lag. I'm curious to what your level will be like, seems to reek of awesomeness since you're using the thermo saving tchnique

2011-11-20 19:40:00 Author: damaz10 Posts: 771

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The Comunity Font Kit level I have has a very low thermo. It's mostly made of light matter.... But it has (in prize bubbles) 36 fonts up for grabs. Shameless advertising? Perhaps. Actually the reason I mention it is because it is about 3.2 mb, well... It was but it wouldn't load. I had the fonts as holo and sticker material so 72 fonts in 12 prize bubbles I guess. I dumped the sticker set and it's still 2.8mb I think but at least it loads. Takes quite a while though... Even with 30mbps fiber optic it still times me out trying to load it. It is clear there are numbers that are bad, and at the 3mb level it starts to really get upset. As for the sticker panel idea, well... For m upcoming BTTF series I'm experimenting on having the different years signage on sticker panel to switch between. I then thought that if I build 1955 all clean and shiny I can use sticker panel overlay to switch on grime and wall damage. Much cheaper on thermo AND gets rid of emitting an entire town. A unique use though I'll admit.

2011-11-21 06:03:00 Author: Mr_Fusion Posts: 1799

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The Comunity Font Kit level I have has a very low thermo. It's mostly made of light matter.... But it has (in prize bubbles) 36 fonts up for grabs. Shameless advertising? Perhaps. Actually the reason I mention it is because it is about 3.2 mb, well... It was but it wouldn't load. I had the fonts as holo and sticker material so 72 fonts in 12 prize bubbles I guess. I dumped the sticker set and it's still 2.8mb I think but at least it loads. Takes quite a while though... Even with 30mbps fiber optic it still times me out trying to load it. It is clear there are numbers that are bad, and at the 3mb level it starts to really get upset. As for the sticker panel idea, well... For m upcoming BTTF series I'm experimenting on having the different years signage on sticker panel to switch between. I then thought that if I build 1955 all clean and shiny I can use sticker panel overlay to switch on grime and wall damage. Much cheaper on thermo AND gets rid of emitting an entire town. A unique use though I'll admit. yeah! that's the sort of thing i was experimenting with the sticker panel trick for. it offers you flexibility without the hassle of having to destroy whole structures. of course it's not going to save as much therm but i reckon you should be able to hit a full thermo and a half without much problem. sadly it's a little redundant for me at the moment because i'm simply too inexperienced and all i want to do is just make a second level for publication

2011-11-21 08:51:00 Author: GribbleGrunger Posts: 3910

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This thread has been helpful for many reasons: I gained insight into the problems I may run into and it has caused me to make up my mind. I will abandon the "one level" idea at this point. Instead I will dedicate a separate level to each of the zones I have planned; each zone will have the menu in front that allows you to pick default weaponry. Players will start from scratch in each zone, with a set number of lives. I will balance the level around that new setup. In case Mm will come around in the future with a logic tool that allows to transfer non-score values in between levels, I can bolt that to it in order to bypass the startup menu for players who decide to play the levels in sequence. Over the weekend I have been working on a setup that uses a title screen with a menu that contains sublevel links: all but zone 1 are locked and as you progress, you will gain the key to the next sublevel. With this, a returning player can start from any zone he played before (of course starting at score 0) as an added benefit and true to the 'quick game' character that so many in the community have come to expect of level series. On top of that I'd like to add a sticker prize for completing a zone on Hard difficulty setting that allows a player to activate the Hard mode for the next zone. I am a bit sad to let go of the original idea but excited at the same time to transform the original premise into a shape that is more suited for LBP and its player base. I am also relieved to get some extra breathing space by having to fit just one zone into a level. I will still have to do a lot of emitting, though; that is the nature of the genre, plus still plenty of stuff that won't fit thermo. Thank you all for helping me come to this decision.

2011-11-21 12:06:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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Seems like a really balanced and well thought out solution Kris. It's great that you'll have a hub with locked levels - I wish I'd gone that way even for a shorter level like Printz, after hearing how people who have been bugged out of the level (due to broken level links, sixaxis etc) haven't had the heart to play through again due to no 'shortcut'. It sounds as though your shooter is going to take some time to play through (which I love) - having the option to take a break and return, or skip back to portions which you really enjoy, is a real potential boon to its success. Good luck, and I am so excited about this!

2011-11-21 12:16:00 Author: rialrees Posts: 1015

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This thread has been helpful for many reasons: I gained insight into the problems I may run into and it has caused me to make up my mind. I will abandon the "one level" idea at this point. Instead I will dedicate a separate level to each of the zones I have planned; each zone will have the menu in front that allows you to pick default weaponry. Players will start from scratch in each zone, with a set number of lives. I will balance the level around that new setup. In case Mm will come around in the future with a logic tool that allows to transfer non-score values in between levels, I can bolt that to it in order to bypass the startup menu for players who decide to play the levels in sequence. Over the weekend I have been working on a setup that uses a title screen with a menu that contains sublevel links: all but zone 1 are locked and as you progress, you will gain the key to the next sublevel. With this, a returning player can start from any zone he played before (of course starting at score 0) as an added benefit and true to the 'quick game' character that so many in the community have come to expect of level series. On top of that I'd like to add a sticker prize for completing a zone on Hard difficulty setting that allows a player to activate the Hard mode for the next zone. I am a bit sad to let go of the original idea but excited at the same time to transform the original premise into a shape that is more suited for LBP and its player base. I am also relieved to get some extra breathing space by having to fit just one zone into a level. I will still have to do a lot of emitting, though; that is the nature of the genre, plus still plenty of stuff that won't fit thermo. Thank you all for helping me come to this decision. have you seen these? i'm not entirely sure but they may be of help: LBP2-Torials 09: Level Linking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v17JnhpDMuY&hd=1) LBP2-Torials 10: Level Linking And Data Transfer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLF_GsQmPdU&hd=1)

2011-11-21 16:14:00 Author: GribbleGrunger Posts: 3910

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have you seen these? i'm not entirely sure but they may be of help: LBP2-Torials 09: Level Linking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v17JnhpDMuY&hd=1) LBP2-Torials 10: Level Linking And Data Transfer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLF_GsQmPdU&hd=1) Yup. Have seen them and although it's very clever it is also very limited and takes away score for the purpose of data transfer. Score is essential in my level. Hopefully this budding thread (http://www.littlebigplanetarium.com/topic/2215-save-data-tool/page__pid__16062) will gain some attention from the folks with the keys to LBP's source code.

2011-11-21 18:58:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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Yup. Have seen them and although it's very clever it is also very limited and takes away score for the purpose of data transfer. Score is essential in my level. Hopefully this budding thread (http://www.littlebigplanetarium.com/topic/2215-save-data-tool/page__pid__16062) will gain some attention from the folks with the keys to LBP's source code. the trouble is that the data transfer could be different from one creator to another. how would it remember that you picked up two potions, or three spells, or that you have a key for a room in the second section? all these variables need to be catered for if it's to work well. it would certainly have to be like a global setting and it would certainly have to be values that could be interpreted by the creator. perhaps a 'token' system that ties in with the global system. the creator would have lets say 10 slots at his/her disposal and these slots can be given a label. you then get given the token on completion of that level. when you enter the next level all you have to do is take the token out and place it on a token panel (like the sticker sensor panels) and each labels value then gets transferred to the second level and so forth. if you could keep that token in your popit then it would work as a save too and you could continue the following day so you would have: Global attributes 10 slots, each with a label and a setting to 'save to token' or 'award' (default for a game with only one level. which of course can be changed to 'save token' if/when the creator decides to continue with the series. Attribute token this would contain the labels and values gained. up to ten attributes can be used and would be stored in your popit for future plays. you would also have an 'accumulate' setting 'on/off' if you want to allow people to replay certain sections to level up Token sensor this would unlock those labels and values and automatically update the global attributes as soon as you place the attribute token down

2011-11-21 20:13:00 Author: GribbleGrunger Posts: 3910

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This is one of the most interesting threads I have read for a while, especially seeing how people overcome the thermo and level linking stuff. From reading this I think best practice stuff is have material blocks in an empty level to stop emitter thermo spikes a level hub is nessecary to combat bug outs etc file size is more important to consider than thermo and it is based on unique shapes custom data tracking is limited, stickers may be the best option

2011-11-23 06:12:00 Author: Mr_Fusion Posts: 1799

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