Archive: 25 posts

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"I can already do better than this." I have a creator's disease. But not a bad one, by any means (at least not from my point of view). Allow me to explain. Every time I publish a level in LBP, it takes very little time before I start looking over it and thinking - "I could do that so much better now." And not just little things - whole gameplay mechanics, arrangements / methods of logic, level design, music, voice acting, the whole shebang. Most recently, it's happened with my latest Printz level. I published this about fifteen hours ago, and I've received some truly heartwarming and positive feedback from the people who matter the most to me, some friends, some respected creators, and even a handful of complete strangers who I didn't even expect would play (at least not play and like)! But now, less than 24 hours after publish, the little monster is talking to me and asking - "What would you do differently, if you knew then what you know now?" I learn a lot every time I make a level, as I'm sure many of us do. I typically spend between three weeks and two months on any one particular publish, so that time is usually chock a block with different tasks and skills I'm (hopefully) improving on every time. It's not that I'm unhappy with my levels, in fact I'm very proud of them all, despite redo-ing one of them a little while ago... It's just that I wonder sometimes, how much have I learned from every single project I've made, even those I never published? Surely I'm not the only one to suffer from this particular affliction? So my question is twofold: Do you suffer from this illness, henceforth dubbed "redo-your-level-itis"? How long does it take for this feeling to set in?

2011-10-28 13:17:00 Author: rialrees Posts: 1015

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You publish the level at the end of the day. I realized that I'm too picky to ever release a level because I'm never NEVER NEVER satisfied. And this is a worse block...but it's always a good sign. A human being that is satisfied with what he knows is a dead being. Curiosity, desire to become better and such noble intents are what keep life interesting

2011-10-28 13:33:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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This is a topic that I can relate to like you wouldn't believe. The Crystal Cave in Autumn was published back in February of 2009. I have tried to remake it probably 7 or 8 times. I always start, then stop. It's one of those things where .... when I try to redo it, it's just not the same. The level looks like crap because it was released before the global lighting tool. And if I did it now, I would put real water in it, and I would use global lighting, the crystal decoration, etc... but for some reason, whenever I attempt to do that, it loses its charm and its heart. I've also wanted to redo Centralia - A Ghost Story, but that suffers from the same thing. I start to mess with it, and suddenly it loses all of the feeling. I will say this on the subject: There comes a point where you have to say "I'm satisfied with this, I learned from this, and now it's time to move on". If I didn't repeat that to myself each day, I would constantly just be redoing the same things and trying to improve them. Take my comics for instance. I get the urge every single day to go back and redo my earlier comics with the knowledge and experience I have today, 3 years later. I don't do this, though, because, like I said, I'd never move forward if i kept doing that. So anyway, yeah, you're not alone, ria. Fight the urge and move forward! And if you still feel the urge, don't recreate, but perhaps make a spiritual sequel set in the same world. That's what I plan to do with the Crystal Cave at some point.

2011-10-28 13:44:00 Author: xkappax Posts: 2569

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I have this illness, but I do not suffer as much from it as I used to. One is its own worst critic, they say, but you have be able to take distance from yourself and then make the distinction between improvements that matter a lot and improvements that don't. For instance, I have been working for the best part of the last half year on a vertical shooter. Some bits in there have traversed up to 5 new versions by now (mostly logic related bits), but have gotten to the point where I would now only redo them again if it means a huge upgrade of their appeal or performance. I have also cut out parts completely which I felt were not up to my (increasing) standard, had little significance or uniqueness to them or just didn't fit it. What I like to look for in my own work is ways to make my creations 'click', an improvement that gives them purpose, a soul. Something that makes them better than I could have foreseen. Something that makes them stronger related to their environment, the atmosphere or plot of the level. Example: the pendulum in my LBP1 Clock Tower level; it was not part of my original idea for a clock's mechanism and it became a unique obstacle and eye catcher in the level that totally fits in with the big picture. I don't think this illness is something one should avoid: it can lead to unforeseen results that are better than first imagined. However, if you never look back at what you have made and appreciate it for how good is really is, it can lead to overengineering and that might wear you out and you will never finish anything. So here is how I recommend a creator embraces change: Design and build with change in mind; accept that you will change stuff later, so document logic, make it organized and don't make contructs that lock you in a corner. Play and experiment with ideas in separate craters; this may lead to better ideas and prevent your combined level from breaking. Sketch out or write down ideas, ponder over them, study them, do research or just let them grow over time. Be open to suggestions from other people; one tends to be biased towards ones own work and that can lead to not seeing alternate, often better solutions. Especially outsiders who are not into LBP or gaming in general, tend to have viewpoints unburdened by constraints and conventions that we creators torture ourselves with. EDIT: as a closing note, I'd like to say this. If you gain satisfaction out of the process of creating, out of evolving your skills and knowledge, then that in itself becomes a great goal. When and what you publish then becomes secondary and any delay caused by self-criticism is suddenly not that much of a problem anymore.

2011-10-28 13:52:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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It's a sign of taste and ongoing personal growth that you are seeing things you've done with clearer eyes in hindsight. There's also this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmI5SSQLmE Everything I create, I give it the fine-toothed comb treatment, making endless improvements stretching for weeks or months after publication... basically every time I replay a level, I find a dozen things I could have done better. And in cases that don't require massive overhauls, I improve them. But I also recognize that one of the reasons I am able to do it with LBP levels (and not with, say, web design) is because I feel fairly anonymous and free to make mistakes with the LBP audience. For web design and other things, I rarely get comfortable enough to publish a thing... or shortly after putting it out in the world I see all the things I could have done better, and pull it all offline again... feeling anything less than perfection is intolerable. Of course, nothing ever is perfect...! Take comfort in knowing that your eternal fretting, patching, revising and improving is an extension of your personality -- one that values excellence and drives you to excel, and is in no way a broken feeling!

2011-10-28 14:14:00 Author: Unknown User

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I envy you. I usually get that feeling a few hours after beginning to create. :/ That's why I never publish anything. Anyway, I think this happens to all of us at some point, and my advice is that you just do better on your next level(s). You can still, of course, fix things in your previous ones.

2011-10-28 14:22:00 Author: RJA00000 Posts: 387

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Do you suffer from this illness, henceforth dubbed "redo-your-level-itis"? Yep, thats pretty much the disease that plagues my RPG. I havent encountered technical difficulties in months, but I am so darn picky; i try to fix every little thing that could become controversial or make the game feel or look better-- before the game is even released. Especially the sticker pack making things so much better, I stubbornly started "repainting" the entire game, and it looks way different and better. However, sometimes it seems like I will keep finding things I wanted to change and since the project is so large--it takes ample time to implement the changes, meaning the project pretty much never gets released. Is that being a perfectionist? And is being a perfectionist dangerous? Well I think its being a perfectionist and theres absolutely nothing wrong with that--but in my case it is dangerous, since i haven't even published a level yet in LBP. I think these projects(like yours) are personal in the sense that we want them to be awesome--maybe even more than is actually possible in LBP2 lol But it is in no way a plague; its a natural feeling creators will get after finishing projects--especially ones they spend a great deal of time on. My best advice is since you already published chapter 1, just switch all the improvements to the next entry if they are drastic. Would be cool to see the technological advances over the course of a series as well. Most sequels in gaming do this anyway. And i second the notion on planning everything out. They say writing is thought processing( Sketching is too far out either). You can take it from me; it makes things much more efficient than just going into a empty level and fooling around with different level designs or ideas.

2011-10-28 14:25:00 Author: Rpg Maker Posts: 877

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Around 5 minutes. Not just with LBP, but with everything.

2011-10-28 14:28:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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thanks to everyone for getting involved in this - it looks like this epidemic is far more common than I even dreamed to imagine! arbekkio, that video sums it all up perfectly - i completely garee that this seems to be a common theme among us all, as many of you have already highlighted. It makes me feel better to know I'm not alone in this, and I hope it makes some of you feel a little better too :3

2011-10-28 14:33:00 Author: rialrees Posts: 1015

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As I'm pressing the publish button. (Back when I used to publish)

2011-10-28 14:39:00 Author: Lady_Luck__777 Posts: 3458

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Right, this level is done. One final test run ... Oh, that could be better. There, done. Now test again. ... Hm, that doesn't sound quite right. Better fix that. And test again. ... Yes, all good now. Oh, better check one more time. ... Oh, no! I forgot to sticker that corner. I probably forgot something else. Let's see... ... Argh! /publishes /5 minutes later What no rating!? Something must be broken! Better check! (and so on for hours and hours)

2011-10-28 15:09:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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I constantly come up with ideas of what I can add, not completely redo. I'm the kind of person who updates things constantly. Everything I make is never truly "complete", because I keep adding things. I'm not saying my levels are always unfinished, but I always add something new. That actually applies to more than LBP. Now when there IS an error, I immediately try to fix it, especially when people are playing while I fix it.

2011-10-28 15:32:00 Author: lemurboy12 Posts: 842

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Hehe, had to check the OP's name and make sure it didn't say, "CYMBOL". I'm on my 3rd remake of a new level, called, "The Explorers". It was actually my first level, but I abandoned it on my moon and made Jumper instead. Two times I have had Explorers half done and scrapped it cause I didn't think it was good enough. In general, I think I'm a pretty bad creator. I'm not good with logic, I struggle with design... 90% of the time I feel like I'm just guessing, and have no idea what I'm doing. So, usually, once I'm done, I stand back and think, it could be better... but I try and get it to "good enough" and publish. I've always said, Creators are never done creating a level, they simply run out of room.

2011-10-28 15:47:00 Author: CYMBOL Posts: 1230

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I do that aswell...Depending on how much effort i put into the level. E.g: I don't do it too often with "Turn Sackbots..." but i do it constantly on "just A Dream?" I've spent a while on my new level..I get onto a streak, think it's fairly decent and leave it for a while. then i would either have a break, or play simlsar-ish levels and say: "Hey! I should've thought of that!" and possibly add it in... This goes on for quite a while..while still creating the level.

2011-10-28 16:26:00 Author: Valeview Posts: 1581

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Oh boy did I have this on my first level V3. I wanted my "debut" to be so epic, to have so much so that people would just be surprised or impressed that I fit so much in. I started with the 10 attack types and 6 characters, then added 2 more characters and 2 more arenas to fight in... then you guys just had to make a contest for versus levels so I reworked the system using a bunch of feedback and made 6 more characters. Then added those six new characters to the main game giving it 14... I wanted to add more elements, characters and maps and even a system where each of the characters could spawn AI minions to fight along side the player characters.. It got to a point where I realized that if I kept doing this, then I would never make any other levels.. and adding more of the same to a level wouldn't get me any more plays.. or be fun for anyone who doesn't enjoy the gameplay the first time around. I still want to update it with a few fixes but I just always feel like it's taking a step backwards... when I want to work on something new. We just need to realize that enough is enough on a level so it won't plague our thoughts and distract us from future projects. In your particular case Rialrees, let me assume the role of the little monster and say "Make printz sixaxis compatible"... if possible. I was bummed that I couldn't play it because I don't have a move.

2011-10-28 16:45:00 Author: Dortr Posts: 548

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Am I the only one thats completely sick of a level by the time it gets published then?? Bug fixing aside (and at that point I would happily pay someone else to do it) , I mentally need to throw it out of the nest for at least a few months.

2011-10-28 19:17:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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Am I the only one thats completely sick of a level by the time it gets published then?? I'm with you jules. It reaches the point of diminishing returns to endlessly redo stuff...it's never going to be perfect, I accept that. By the time a level is 50% complete I usually just want to wrap it up and move on to something else, now hopefully older and wiser. After publishing a level I'll correct any glaring errors I missed in my testing for a week or two and then stick a fork in it. This of course in no way stops me from enumerating all the things I could have done differently/better...

2011-10-28 19:59:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

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Am I the only one thats completely sick of a level by the time it gets published then? I'm usually tired of my levels by the end and have no idea whether it's good or bad. I will have played each section of the levels dozens of times and really just want to finish it, but then I get stuck in cycle I described above. That only makes me hate level more.

2011-10-28 20:03:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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This is exactly the reason why I have never gotten anything done. I usually get it just after I thought of my idea.

2011-10-28 21:06:00 Author: JamesDNaux Posts: 757

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It usually takes me about 3 minutes to do that. Luckily I also suffer from a larger case of lazyculosis, so it never troubles me too much after the few initial edits that I have to make to get it all working again. I look at everything I do and see things that need to be changed. I'll probably even edit this post once I see it actually in the thread and realize something is off about it. It's funny though, all those little things we see as flaws in our own work, other people either never notice or think were done intentionally. I've been known to fuss over whether an object should be where it is, or just one grid square left. It really makes no difference at all to anyone because they would never even notice it, but to me it could have been placed better.

2011-10-28 21:50:00 Author: tdarb Posts: 689

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Am I the only one thats completely sick of a level by the time it gets published then?? Bug fixing aside (and at that point I would happily pay someone else to do it) , I mentally need to throw it out of the nest for at least a few months. Completely. I've watched every cutscene a hundred times, played every part many times, and played through the entire level countless times. Actually, I tend to feel almost exhausted on publishing day. It's borderline stressful, haha. I usually take a week off LBP after a publish. It's tiring being focused on something for so long, especially as it gets more complex at the end. So, yeah, I've been there... and with my new level hopefully about 2 weeks out, I'm getting there again.

2011-10-28 23:52:00 Author: CYMBOL Posts: 1230

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Do you suffer from this illness, henceforth dubbed "redo-your-level-itis"? yes, it's actually stopped me from publishing anything up until now, but every time i make another level i get better How long does it take for this feeling to set in? when i've returned to my moon and pressed delete. i'm not losing a level, i'm gaining expertise. i am now currently half way through a level and this actually looks like i 'might' publish it

2011-10-29 03:07:00 Author: GribbleGrunger Posts: 3910

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when i've returned to my moon and pressed delete. i'm not losing a level, i'm gaining expertise. i am now currently half way through a level and this actually looks like i 'might' publish it You should go ahead and publish one or two. I think you may be surprised. All those flaws you see, none of us probably would. Even if you just publish it for a week and post a link in the level showcase forum, you could get some great input. I think we're all a little hard on ourselves with our work, and tend to forget that no one else lives in our heads. Every level has a flaw, and every level could be better, but every level is also something unique that only the creator came up with. As players, most people look for new experiences; we don't look for flawless levels.

2011-10-29 03:23:00 Author: tdarb Posts: 689

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You should go ahead and publish one or two. I think you may be surprised. All those flaws you see, none of us probably would. Even if you just publish it for a week and post a link in the level showcase forum, you could get some great input. I think we're all a little hard on ourselves with our work, and tend to forget that no one else lives in our heads. Every level has a flaw, and every level could be better, but every level is also something unique that only the creator came up with. As players, most people look for new experiences; we don't look for flawless levels. it's not that i'm a perfectionist (not in LBP... yet) but i see my levels as representations of me. i'd rather release a level that at least looked good even if the gameplay wasn't unique. surely you are more likely to get hits on your second level if you do that

2011-10-29 03:31:00 Author: GribbleGrunger Posts: 3910

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Hey, that's me for everything So I'll probably become a zombie first.

2011-10-29 06:42:00 Author: lark98-2 Posts: 116

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