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#1

How far is too far?

Archive: 83 posts

With the upcoming "Dark side of Disney" Contest, I have seen conversations going on about how dark, how adult, how violent is too violent in LBP... This lead me to ask myself the same of my entry. So, LBPC, how much is too much when it comes to suggestive or violent content? Are we able to get away with things here that wouldn't pass as T for teen? Are we able to squeeze a bit further without notice due to the lack of an ESRB on our case? And if we are, should we do so?2011-10-08 06:22:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

You could always just make what you want and have some trusted unbiased friends test play and give you some winks and nudges on certain parts of your level. Things I would avoid would be excessive blood, gore, murder, mutilation, sexual themes or innuendo. It's a twist on a Disney film anyway. I would personally just go with some dramatic lighting and effects accompanied by some creepy but fun music, with just a few little things to keep them excited. Games and levels are really about having fun are they not?2011-10-08 06:42:00

Author:
Littlebigdude805
Posts: 1924

I am just saying, that I think that sometimes mild drug or sexual innuendo are taken a little to harshly, while violence and gore are rampant on LBP... It makes yoou really think What IS appropriate for all ages? I mean violence is much more offensive in my eyes than sex or drugs... How much of any of it can we (and should we) be able to get away with on LBP?2011-10-08 06:49:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

It seems like violence and drugs are the least modded.. Blatant sexual references and profanities seem to strike a chord with the community.. or Sony. Just don't over-do anything for the sake of being allowed and it's always smarter and more creative to find ways to encrypt dirty jokes so that only the players who know the topic get it 2011-10-08 07:00:00

Author:
Dortr
Posts: 548

I have seen some very guts and gore filled levels that were around in LBP1 and are still around today. All 5star levels, but nonetheless, Ungreth got banned from PSN for a week for having an insinuated roadhouse with a neon XXX in the window... How is that more damaging than watching army guys blow up into a cloud of peach floaty guts?2011-10-08 07:05:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

You see theres a differance between a dark game and a gorey one. A Dark game doesn't even need blood at all if done right

But I see what you mean. I remeber in LBP1 you would see these "excessive blood" levels that were really just stupid paint balls and what not :/
Now you mostly see just splated emited red stuffs, which is a nice effect, but is a bit child esque (as is most of lbp)
However to answer your OT question: I wouldn't go into excessive "saving privet ryan" stuff, but a little blood (if ment for atmosphere) can be good for a level. And also, that XXX thing was dumb (as is most of the modding system XD )		2011-10-08 07:39:00

Author:
a_mailbox
Posts: 416

I just want think that it is a little ridiculous that we allow rather graphic depiction of killing (Murder, a felony) and yet when some sack is in a bikini, or Ungreth has a neon sign, insinuating, but in no way showing a sexual THEMES (Legal, natural bodily function) we get banned. What is up with this crap?

What I am trying to get at is that I can show all the assault, murder, and general mayhem I want, but if you look at my pics up on the ideas and projects for my Peter Pan level, there is a poster of the Playboy logo, a white rabbit, an animal that has no REAL connection with sex, and that any 12 year old can walk down to their local Spencer's and buy to hang on their wall, but I am now acutely aware will get me banned and thrown in prison for being an evil deviant, so I must cover it up with a picture of I guess someone getting shot in the face, all so I don't traumatize some kids who are TOTALLY never going to learn about the birds and the bees if they don't see my poster of a cartoon animal....

You follow, G?		2011-10-08 07:51:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Yeah, avoid bikinis at all costs. Bikinis are the most obscene form of female attire ever slavered over by mankind and liable to cause a serious corruption of society, potentially turning innocent young boys into sex-crazed lunatics who spy on their sisters through the bathroom keyhole. If you know anyone who wears a bikini then you should have them admitted to the nearest STI clinic immediately before you find stray fragments of syphilis in your breakfast cereal.

Also, the letter X should be considered forbidden fruit, especially if multiplied threefold, so try to stick to safe, clean letters such as K and W which extol virtue and set a good example to the youth of today.		2011-10-08 09:06:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

15 year old kids can play COD or GTA in front of their parents, the same parents that bought the games, then watch **** via internet during the night when parents sleep.
Bah, the hypocrisy is one of the worse problem of this world.
Also, what is violence? Highly subjective...		2011-10-08 09:45:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

15 year old kids can play COD or GTA in front of their parents, the same parents that bought the games, then watch **** via internet during the night when parents sleep.
Bah, the hypocrisy is one of the worse problem of this world.
Also, what is violence? Highly subjective...

I am a strict vegetarian, so my views on "Violence" may be a bit skewed, but I think I know people murder when I see it... And I am pretty sure we all agree that THAT is violent.		2011-10-08 10:13:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

I am a strict vegetarian, so my views on "Violence" may be a bit skewed, but I think I know people murder when I see it... And I am pretty sure we all agree that THAT is violent.

I think that Violence is any act against the will of another person, so I think it's broader than what you mention.
So, is it fictional violence, hm...violent?
I was grown watching mechas anime and Fist Of The North Star (check it on youtube if you don't know what it is)
When I went to see NeverEndingStory and The JungleBook I fell asleep.
And when I went to watch Aristocats with my little gf and her father I complained because it was boring and there weren't laser beams...
So, I was grown with pretty violent stuff, but I was taught to understand the difference between what's inside a screen and real life.

Blaming violence (that is something someway deeply rooted in human true nature), is only a lame ploy that parents use to avoid spending time with their kids to teach them what's good and bad, what's fiction and what's reality, and where every border/limit is.

Also, Greeks, that had less tech than us, but were wiser, had this nice concept called Catharsis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis)		2011-10-08 11:12:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

If you are in doubt, scale it back. You can rarely guess what will be tolerated by a 7-year-old or, more importantly, a casually passing parent or a Grief-happy puritan.2011-10-08 11:27:00

Author:
Unknown User

If you are in doubt, scale it back. You can rarely guess what will be tolerated by a 7-year-old or, more importantly, a casually passing parent or a Grief-happy puritan.

Yeh, it 's more likely to modded on behalf of a 7 year old, who is probably just laughing at it.		2011-10-08 14:01:00

Author:
julesyjules
Posts: 1156

Also, the letter X should be considered forbidden fruit, especially if multiplied threefold, so try to stick to safe, clean letters such as K and W which extol virtue and set a good example to the youth of today.


Maybe instead of three X's you should have tried KY?

But to the OP, I think a good rule of thumb is to consider whether any elements of your level might make some child go running to his mother asking "mommy, what's that thing?" Avoid that kind of thing 		2011-10-08 14:35:00

Author:
Chazprime
Posts: 587

I think that violence or murder in your level is okay as long as you keep it hidden (sackboy gets dragged into a dark room, gets murdered, a scream, maybe some blood). If the killing isn't gruesome or unappealing to the eye, you might be able to actually show how sackboy was killed (sackboy gets stabbed, then dies). If it's like a really gruesome killing like sackboy's digestive system gushing out of his body, then we all know what we should do. -__-2011-10-08 16:09:00

Author:
FEAR
Posts: 337

IMO, Creepypasta scary is too far.2011-10-08 16:12:00

Author:
Cactii
Posts: 426

I think that violence or murder in your level is okay as long as you keep it hidden (sackboy gets dragged into a dark room, gets murdered, a scream, maybe some blood). If the killing isn't gruesome or unappealing to the eye, you might be able to actually show how sackboy was killed (sackboy gets stabbed, then dies). If it's like a really gruesome killing like sackboy's digestive system gushing out of his body, then we all know what we should do. -__-

Mm picked my Space Assassins level which featured a death scene where a man gets sucked into outer space, causing his eyes to pop out of his head as his body implodes in a shower of blood and bone. Clearly gore isn't too much of an issue where LBP censorship is concerned.		2011-10-08 17:03:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Yeah, avoid bikinis at all costs. Bikinis are the most obscene form of female attire ever slavered over by mankind and liable to cause a serious corruption of society, potentially turning innocent young boys into sex-crazed lunatics who spy on their sisters through the bathroom keyhole. If you know anyone who wears a bikini then you should have them admitted to the nearest STI clinic immediately before you find stray fragments of syphilis in your breakfast cereal.


:kz: Best. Statement. EVAR.		2011-10-08 17:08:00

Author:
IronSkullKid99
Posts: 515

The game is rated 7+ which is the same as a PG rating.2011-10-08 19:31:00

Author:
Ayneh
Posts: 2454

There's a difference between violence/nudity and maturity. Games can be gory and contain lots of naked people but that doesn't make them mature games. Prepubescent kids feel like adults because they play Call of Duty and God of War, when in reality those games don't have any maturity at all. In those games, violence is a constant element and it's perceived as something trivial. There's only the graphic content and nothing more. The suffering and emotional impact involved with the death of someone don't matter.
Now games like Heavy Rain, those are mature. They deal with human pain and the psychological implications of killing or hurting someone. The scenes in which we hack Ethan's finger off or in which we decide wether to kill or not the drug dealer are infinitely more shocking than hours of watching Kratos rip some monster's head off.

Violent content =/= mature content.		2011-10-08 19:44:00

Author:
SnipySev
Posts: 2452

Well now that you guys have me thinking about it, My level has NO blood, NO gore, NO actual killing, but it's theme is the impact on a young girl's mind when her father dies in an auto accident. The reason I am afraid of it getting modded is because I have:

A- the Playboy White Rabbit on a poster in her room.
B- Implied, but never shown use of drugs by her.
C- Several cans of Pabst in a camp in the woods.

All three of those things seem more punishable in LBP than having the most gore filled blood fest, but I feel are integral elements to telling the story of this girl, and exploring who she is. They are mechanisms of STORY and aren't violence or gratuitous nudity for the sake of getting sick jollies...		2011-10-08 20:35:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Well now that you guys have me thinking about it, My level has NO blood, NO gore, NO actual killing, but it's theme is the impact on a young girl's mind when her father dies in an auto accident. The reason I am afraid of it getting modded is because I have:

A- the Playboy White Rabbit on a poster in her room.
B- Implied, but never shown use of drugs by her.
C- Several cans of Pabst in a camp in the woods.

All three of those things seem more punishable in LBP than having the most gore filled blood fest, but I feel are integral elements to telling the story of this girl, and exploring who she is. They are mechanisms of STORY and aren't violence or gratuitous nudity for the sake of getting sick jollies...

That sounds like a great premise for a level and the kind of thing that I would personally love to play. Sadly, I would also estimate some potential for such a level to get moderated if it' s content ever came to the attention of the Sony gestapo. I'm not saying don't make it...in fact I would wholeheatedly encourage you to make it because you've really sparked my interest now...but I think you should embark on the project knowing that you take a risk. In all likelihood you will get away with it if you keep it subtle, (as it sounds like you intend to do anyway), but I never thought that after 2 years of being on the servers that the roadhouse sign in Sackboy Proves He's Got Stuffin' would one day come back to bite me in the ***. I guess you just never can tell which small details somebody will eventually pick up on and report you for.		2011-10-08 22:25:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Well now that you guys have me thinking about it, My level has NO blood, NO gore, NO actual killing, but it's theme is the impact on a young girl's mind when her father dies in an auto accident. The reason I am afraid of it getting modded is because I have:

A- the Playboy White Rabbit on a poster in her room.
B- Implied, but never shown use of drugs by her.
C- Several cans of Pabst in a camp in the woods.

All three of those things seem more punishable in LBP than having the most gore filled blood fest, but I feel are integral elements to telling the story of this girl, and exploring who she is. They are mechanisms of STORY and aren't violence or gratuitous nudity for the sake of getting sick jollies...

On a whole most people find the use of drugs and sex in films and games more offensive than gore or murder and that has a lot to do with religious beliefs and emotional beliefs. The bible is full of murder and gore so most Christians will happily play games that involve it yet they will attempt to ban any game that has sex references or themes or Drug use as it is corrupting. Also many people have had bad experiences with drugs and do not wish to find it in their games.
I am not religious but i know a few people who are who think exactly like this.

Referring to what you have written i would seriously rethink the whole Drug use bit and maybe get rid of the bunny that refers to the playboy symbol. If they banned Ungreth for a XXX sighn which means hardcore (But not always necessarily anything to do with sex) then a playboyesque symbol will be seen as blatant advertising of sex by moderators.

Gore and murder as bad as it is in real life is not necessarily depicted as a bad thing but more of a fun thing when it comes to movies and games. My parents always let me watch horror movies and play games where i just hacked and slashed people but they never let me watch anything like South park until i was 15.

Hell i am gonna have my level based on Pinnochio using his nose to kill enemies and things i will add violence but like said before by others i will add some killings of none enemies if i add them discreetly using shadows or it will happen behind closed doors or something.		2011-10-09 00:11:00

Author:
Lordwarblade
Posts: 761

I'm having the same problem!
Oo wee, and none of the crew members could answer my question!
This community is so helpful.		2011-10-09 03:09:00

Author:
Rather Tasty
Posts: 57

I find the community very helpful in these kinds of situations... But it seriously is a HARMFUL cultural phenomenon where murder is seen as less taboo than sex.2011-10-09 07:21:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Yup, I found God of War to be very childish - it's like the kind of thing a prepubescent boy scribbles in his notes book.
We were all children once - and if I remember rightly, I was a sex and gore obsessed little twerp when I was a kid. Less so now I'm an adult.

We all love ghost stories when we're kids... the gorier and scarier the better.

We even have a public festival about it - Halloween.

Take something like Nightmare Before Christmas, or The Corpse Bride, for example. Both aimed at children, but if you were to look on paper at the content you might be forgiven for thinking it was adult orientated.

There is something fundamentally wrong with a society that allows kids to be exposed to guns/gore - but doesn't allow them to be exposed to loving, consensual sex. Out of the two, which is worse?!

The truth is, there is no hard and fast set of rules and guidelines... we make it up as we go along based on societies moral priorities at the time.		2011-10-09 10:25:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

Yup, I found God of War to be very childish - it's like the kind of thing a prepubescent boy scribbles in his notes book.

Yup, and Kratos himself starts acting like a spoiled brat after the first game, constantly screaming "BLARGH BLARGH MY REVENGE" and killing every single being he encounters not even considering if they deserve it or not. Heck, everyone is against him because he was acting like a twit in the first place, waging war against greek cities because he felt bad for killing his own family. He's a murderous emo brat. Only kids would consider this a cool character even though there's nothing likeable about him. He's the ultimate villain of the story.		2011-10-09 11:28:00

Author:
SnipySev
Posts: 2452

I find the community very helpful in these kinds of situations... But it seriously is a HARMFUL cultural phenomenon where murder is seen as less taboo than sex.

Well, I think the difference is far more easily explained than you guys are making it out to be. Sex and drugs in movies are almost always gratuitous. With very few exceptions, I cannot think of many movies or games where sex was so pivotal that it absolutely needed to be portrayed. On the other hand, death and violence are quite central to many plots. You can't just explain away every death, especially in a game.

Personally, I prefer not to watch gratuitous sex. It has nothing to do with religion. I just feel that it isn't necessary, and it is crude and uncreative. That's just my opinion though.		2011-10-09 13:11:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

Well, I think the difference is far more easily explained than you guys are making it out to be. Sex and drugs in movies are almost always gratuitous. With very few exceptions, I cannot think of many movies or games where sex was so pivotal that it absolutely needed to be portrayed. On the other hand, death and violence are quite central to many plots. You can't just explain away every death, especially in a game.

Personally, I prefer not to watch gratuitous sex. It has nothing to do with religion. I just feel that it isn't necessary, and it is crude and uncreative. That's just my opinion though.

So, by your argument... working in a love scene into a story is more "gratuitous" than working in a violent death scene?!
You can't see what a moral fallacy that is?!

You have your own moral compass that says that things like nudity and sex are wrong (which they are not)... and should not be focused on... but death and violence is acceptable to be the main focal point for a story?

It's a cultural hang up from the puritanical christians that wanted to control the population through it's most fundamental means... by making all sex outside of an religiously ordained partnership to be viewed as "immoral".
Where as killing another tribe or collection of people who held a different view was seen as desirable.		2011-10-09 13:51:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

Sex and drugs in movies are almost always gratuitous. With very few exceptions, I cannot think of many movies or games where sex was so pivotal that it absolutely needed to be portrayed. On the other hand, death and violence are quite central to many plots. You can't just explain away every death, especially in a game.


So by your logic, the sex scene in "the Ides of March" (Rated R) which shows no actual nudity, and is integral to the plot, is MUCH MUCH worse than all the gruesome decapitations and dismembering and genocidal themes of "the Lord of the Rings" (rated PG13)?		2011-10-09 21:15:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Anybody remember "Afraid" by Spidermaguire getting modded?
It was a really cool fairly scary (very dark) movie level about a couple of repair guys getting mysteriously killed by a ghost.
There was no out and out violence, the only blood you saw was a few paintballs spurting out of a doorway.

IIRC it was modded because a single individual (I believe they were 7 years old) griefed the level for scaring him too much.

There was no sex or drugs or violence on screen at all, but it still had to be taken down and edited by the creator... to answer the OP I think that what is acceptable (as we have seen by all the comments in this thread) is totally subjective, and just like Ungreth's level, you don't know what each individual players threshold for scariness/darkness/sexual content/drug related/violence will be.

I say post your level and if Mm ask you to take it down try and get a clear answer on what was reported so you can make the minimum changes to your level possible (I dont know what the contest crew's rules are about this sort of thing)		2011-10-09 23:51:00

Author:
Skalio-
Posts: 920

Anybody remember "Afraid" by Spidermaguire getting modded?
It was a really cool fairly scary (very dark) movie level about a couple of repair guys getting mysteriously killed by a ghost.
There was no out and out violence, the only blood you saw was a few paintballs spurting out of a doorway.

IIRC it was modded because a single individual (I believe they were 7 years old) griefed the level for scaring him too much.

There was no sex or drugs or violence on screen at all, but it still had to be taken down and edited by the creator... to answer the OP I think that what is acceptable (as we have seen by all the comments in this thread) is totally subjective, and just like Ungreth's level, you don't know what each individual players threshold for scariness/darkness/sexual content/drug related/violence will be.

I say post your level and if Mm ask you to take it down try and get a clear answer on what was reported so you can make the minimum changes to your level possible (I dont know what the contest crew's rules are about this sort of thing)

So this kid chose to play a level called "Afraid" then reported it because it made him afraid?

Jeez...even my 5 year old daughter isn't that stupid!

(In fact the monsters in my Tenement level just made her giggle, but she takes after me I guess)		2011-10-09 23:56:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

So our levels can't contain enough darkness to make 4 year old kids wee their pants. Or themes they'll only start thinking about after their science teacher shows them pictures of mating animals. Or things they'll only see when visiting a beach, like a woman in a bikini.

Hm. I get the impression that it won't take long before levels start getting banned for using colors the players don't like. And rainbows. Rainbows remind people of gays, and gays are homosexual, and homosexuality has to do with sexuality, and sexuality is a sexual theme, and sex has no place in LBP.		2011-10-10 00:20:00

Author:
SnipySev
Posts: 2452

Man, all this is because of the MPAA and the Puritan extremists from early American history... IMHO2011-10-10 03:08:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

With the upcoming "Dark side of Disney" Contest, I have seen conversations going on about how dark, how adult, how violent is too violent in LBP... This lead me to ask myself the same of my entry. So, LBPC, how much is too much when it comes to suggestive or violent content? Are we able to get away with things here that wouldn't pass as T for teen? Are we able to squeeze a bit further without notice due to the lack of an ESRB on our case? And if we are, should we do so?

This has been a huge issue for me too recently. I've spent the last 6 months working on a horror level and while it's not at all gory it is quite disturbing and creepy, but after reading about Ungreth, I'm wondering if I should even bother publishing it.

I'm pretty sure you could get away with most things if it were only down to Sony, but it only takes one 'sensitive' moron to complain and it's game over.

Your best bet would be to publish it locked for the first week to avoid hitting the cool pages and perhaps giving it an obscure title that won't generate that many random hits (Don't include 'Disney' lol). Let people find it by actually searching for the Scary tag, so you're only getting the players who actually want to see it.

That said, considering this is for a contest you're already putting yourself out there. It only takes one jealous competitor..		2011-10-10 08:39:00

Author:
Kiminski
Posts: 545

That is a good idea to keep off the radar. I don't care about number of plays. I only care that I can get my product to those who will appreciate it.2011-10-10 12:54:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

It seems Sony has declared this a children's game, which basically means there's no room for mature content. If you really want to do this, you should try to make everything as ambiguous as possible. Perhaps in stead of a bunny you could have a different stylised animal with bowtie, that sort of thing. But no matter what you do, you'll always be at the mercy of the griefers.

We could really use that mature server that Mm talked about...		2011-10-10 14:05:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

We could really use that mature server that Mm talked about...


Eh? What's all that about then? Sounds intriguing, and dare I say it...hopeful!		2011-10-10 14:09:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Its rated E for everyone: That should include children and people of the adult audiences. I originally was going to make a Resident Evil type horror game until i heard about all the levels that got modded for violence, and its quite disappointing. I mean if kids are scared of a level, THEY DONT HAVE TO PLAY IT. This isnt just one game, I mean there are 5 million or so levels out there. I can see things that are offensive to a wide audience, especially sexual content like this LBP level that will remain nameless.

But trying to figure out whats offensive to everyone is irrelevant since every kid has grown up with different restrictions. Some play call of duty when they are like 5 and can handle the blood and gore, some grow around smokers, drinkers, and swearing, and its tough to not offend someone since everyone has different backgrounds. And Kids are scared of all kinds of things; i even met one that was afraid of Daffy Duck( seriously).

Its sort of a challenge for me writing my own scripts because I don't want it to come across as cheesy, and make it believable, but I have heard of levels being modded for all kinds of reasons, and I fear it will happen to my own. Suggestive themes can be used effectively, as well as other mature issues or themes, and its really a shame that we may never be able to explore those options without offending a child somewhere.

To answer the question, it varies. I played stages that had loads of swearing and they didn't get modded. I guess it depends on how popular your level is. You can take risk, but my only advice is to make it less offensive as possible.		2011-10-10 14:28:00

Author:
Rpg Maker
Posts: 877

Eh? What's all that about then? Sounds intriguing, and dare I say it...hopeful!

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/104748-Media-Molecule-Wants-Adult-Oriented-LittleBigPlanet-Filth


LittleBigPlanet creative director Mark Healey recently told GamesTM that he'd love to hang on to these levels and put them in an assortment called LittleBigPlanet Filth. "I am constantly trying to persuade Sony to release an adult version of LittleBigPlanet," he said. "LittleBigPlanet Filth, where all the moderated content goes to."

It continues to say that it's highly unlikely Sony will ever approve because of the risk, though, so don't get your hopes up. 		2011-10-10 14:58:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/104748-Media-Molecule-Wants-Adult-Oriented-LittleBigPlanet-Filth



It continues to say that it's highly unlikely Sony will ever approve because of the risk, though, so don't get your hopes up.

Dang it...we NEED that version! Although I think LittleBigPlanet M (for mature) would be a better title than Filth, which sounds like a place that dirty old men in anoraks would congregate to watch hardcore pornography.		2011-10-10 15:25:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Filth is an appropriate name considering they're expecting 99% will be levels about genitalia, but I suppose a more upheaving name might help bring the best out of people. Maybe LBP Art, that's sure to keep out the underaged.

Edit: It just might be that the secret stuff Mm has been working on lately (you know, the announcement Mm was stepping away from LBP) is exactly this: a mature play-create-share title.		2011-10-10 15:52:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

I guess I can try to publish it locked a week before the deadline, but other than that, I don't think it will attract much attention2011-10-10 16:15:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

I don't see any point in having a level with genitalia or actual sex. If they were to release such a game then people would abuse the crap out of it to make the most inappropriate levels ever just because they can, but there shouldn't be such a problem with exceptionally mild references like Ungreth's neon sign as with a few other modded levels I have seen in our current version of LBP.

Has anyone ever played the "Swear Jar" level by Iowa... dang.. can't find it on LBP.me.. Anyways, it was a film in which had voice acting with tons of cussing, but every word was bleeped out. I was always curious as to if this would be allowed with the new voice recording tools we got in LBP2 but it was still unfortunately taken down, even with the disclaimer saying "Warning: contains censored language" and I thought that would be acceptable.. also that level was on cool pages for a little while and got at least 1,000 plays before being taken down.. Although it seems ok to say words that are unfiltered in levels like dam.n and as.s, which you can't even type here.

I've never seen a level with drugs get modded though... I played a level in which the entire point was to pack a bong and hit it XD and if you take a look at Thi766's Auroura Somanis level (Which is quite popular and he wants a Mm pick on it) there is a character that constantly drinks Whiskey and refers to it as that several times.		2011-10-10 16:21:00

Author:
Dortr
Posts: 548

So if say I have a shot of a girl exhaling smoke in her room as the establishing shot of her life at this point, this would probably not get modded?2011-10-10 16:34:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

I think that would be fine jack, who's to say it isnt just a ciggarette? In which case they cant mod that until smoking tobacco has been illegalised around the world.

edit : IMO lol		2011-10-10 17:03:00

Author:
Skalio-
Posts: 920

So if say I have a shot of a girl exhaling smoke in her room as the establishing shot of her life at this point, this would probably not get modded?

That sounds like me! ;p
I highly doubt it would get modded honestly and yeah you could play it off as a cigarette. From the description that you put it in, it sounds as though the character is not at a very good point in her life no? If that's the case than your not really encouraging the use of drugs and sets up a story.

Now if you had someone shooting up or cooking meth in their basement and show the effects of those drugs then I wouldn't be surprised at all if that got modded.		2011-10-10 17:24:00

Author:
Dortr
Posts: 548

So if say I have a shot of a girl exhaling smoke in her room as the establishing shot of her life at this point, this would probably not get modded?

Disney had smoking characters.		2011-10-10 17:28:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

Lol. My reaction

"Smoking cigarettes!? Eew, don't say that. She's smoking pot."

Lol		2011-10-10 17:30:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Here's a good general rule. If you have to actually work to get things so that they are just barely under the radar, then you probably should just do something else.

Would exhaling smoke get modded? maybe, maybe not, but the fact that you know that the subject matter is not allowed and are actively trying to bypass the censors should tell you that there is a very good chance that it will.

Whether that is fair or not is a matter of opinion I suppose, but at the end of the day we are accessing servers owned by a private company, and they get to make the rules. If we don't like the rules, we have the option to not play or use their servers. It sounds harsh, but that's just how it is.

Given the way the rules are, it is possible that LBP2 may not be the right medium for the story you are trying to tell in this case.		2011-10-10 17:53:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

Disney had smoking characters.

Disney also hides the word "sex" in many of their movies (check my sig. banner), yet I still got banned from PSN for putting a XXX sign in my level.

There seems to be a huge gulf betweeen what Disney gets away with and what Sony allow us to do.		2011-10-10 17:54:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Not the right medium? I will never accept this.2011-10-10 17:58:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

LOL, you guys need to queue this level and check it out ASAP!

http://lbp.me/v/6mh11j

Looks like we're not the only ones who are sick of having our creative flow governed by 7 year old kids.		2011-10-10 18:06:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

, but at the end of the day we are accessing servers owned by a private company, and they get to make the rules. If we don't like the rules, we have the option to not play or use their servers. It sounds harsh, but that's just how it is.

Given the way the rules are, it is possible that LBP2 may not be the right medium for the story you are trying to tell in this case.

Given that there isn't any "hard and fast" rules - that's easier said than done.
There are MM picked levels that could be construed as "breaking the rules" - but MM don't seem to mind - in fact, they are actively encouraging it by making the level MM picked.

And then there are other levels - where people struggle to figure out exactly why and how they have "broken the rules" and yet the levels still get a heavy handed modding.

If MM were to just come out and admit "The rules are what ever we decide the rules are, depending on how we're feeling at the time and not based on any specific guidelines- only we're not going to tell you what these are" - then people would be able to understand their decisions a bit more. 		2011-10-10 18:08:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

I don't feel that this is MM's fault. I just think it is time that they acknowledge that they made a game aimed towards kids that has gone over the heads of many children, and gained an adult audience that is mature, and wants less Disney and more Lionsgate2011-10-10 18:24:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Given that there isn't any "hard and fast" rules - that's easier said than done.
There are MM picked levels that could be construed as "breaking the rules" - but MM don't seem to mind - in fact, they are actively encouraging it by making the level MM picked.

And then there are other levels - where people struggle to figure out exactly why and how they have "broken the rules" and yet the levels still get a heavy handed modding.

If MM were to just come out and admit "The rules are what ever we decide the rules are, depending on how we're feeling at the time and not based on any specific guidelines- only we're not going to tell you what these are" - then people would be able to understand their decisions a bit more.

I'm suspect that Mm are happy to let us get away with pushing the boundaries, so long as we don't extract too much proverbial urine. It's when the Sony gestapo step in that the ban hammer swiftly falls.		2011-10-10 18:25:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Disney also hides the word "sex" in many of their movies (check my sig. banner), yet I still got banned from PSN for putting a XXX sign in my level.

There seems to be a huge gulf betweeen what Disney gets away with and what Sony allow us to do.

Disney has a pretty bad record of putting in subliminal sexual themes. Little Mermaid had some shocking parts.		2011-10-10 18:32:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

I have seen these disney "subliminal messages".... But I don't personally think any of them were intentional.2011-10-10 18:33:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Disney also hides the word "sex" in many of their movies (check my sig. banner), yet I still got banned from PSN for putting a XXX sign in my level.

There seems to be a huge gulf betweeen what Disney gets away with and what Sony allow us to do.

I'm not entirely sure if that was intended or just a coincidence... Hiding the word "sex" in something is not only immature, but pointless.		2011-10-10 18:37:00

Author:
xero
Posts: 2419

Back on topic... Did anyone ever play... God what was that level called back in LBP 1, but it was scary as ****... Spectral Fear or something? It was super duper graphic2011-10-10 18:39:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

I have seen these disney "subliminal messages".... But I don't personally think any of them were intentional.

Then I guess you misses the "aroused" priest at the end of Little Mermaid. Nothing subliminal about it. Or, the original poster for the movie.

Anyway, how many times does it have to happen before it becomes intentional? 		2011-10-10 18:45:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

15 year old kids can play COD or GTA in front of their parents, the same parents that bought the games, then watch **** via internet during the night when parents sleep.
Bah, the hypocrisy is one of the worse problem of this world.
Also, what is violence? Highly subjective...

Tbh, most 15 year olds have the internet in their pockets now lol

It is absolutely hypocrisy to the highest degree how slack censorship is when it comes to violence vs the stance on anything sexual.		2011-10-10 19:03:00

Author:
Masseyf
Posts: 226

Then I guess you misses the "aroused" priest at the end of Little Mermaid. Nothing subliminal about it. Or, the original poster for the movie.

Anyway, how many times does it have to happen before it becomes intentional?

There's nothing subliminal about the topless woman on the poster in the background in a certain scene from The Rescuers either 		2011-10-10 19:06:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

These suggestive "hidden messages" Disney and other animation companies include in their movies are a trope called Getting Crap Past The Radar (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GettingCrapPastTheRadar). Kids aren't old enough to understand them and most people aren't focused enough to spot them. LBP creators could start resorting to it too, it'd be hilarious.2011-10-10 20:04:00

Author:
SnipySev
Posts: 2452

Disney doesn't HAVE to put subliminal messages. They don't HAVE to censor themselves either. Disney basically OWNS the MPAA. They could do Terminator, and they could get it rated G if they wanted.2011-10-10 20:20:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Poorjack, this has turned into a thread about what Disney can (and has been) getting away with with their subliminal messages, which are, in most cases, fairly well hidden and in a few cases almost completely subjective and formed by people that look way too hard to find something inappropriate. I personally never noticed any of them when I was little and I watched tons of Disney movies when I was little. It wasn't until I was older that I saw pictures and videos of these things being pointed out that I even noticed it.

Anyways the ones to worry about aren't Disney or Mm. Mm make the game, patch it and release DLC and Disney has endorsed quite a bit of that DLC.
Sony are the ones banning people and lazily modding levels because they own all the servers. Ironically I'm sure many more of Sony's movies contain much more mature content than any of Disneys subliminal messages although they were probably rated accordingly.		2011-10-10 20:52:00

Author:
Dortr
Posts: 548

Ok folks, let's re-un-derail this thread... Not a thread about disney, but about understanding exactly what these griefers grief for. Do you think kids actually ban for these frivolous sexual innuendos? or more parents?2011-10-10 20:57:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

What really annoys me is the fact that this is an online game. There are FAR more sinister things to worry about than the odd sponge willy. No matter how many levels/comments get moderated, you can't control the internet and there's always going to be an element of risk in letting your 7 year old play online.

That's not to say I'd have any problem with it, but I'd consider it my responsibility to ensure they were supervised.

I'm quite surprised they didn't go with the usual 13+ for online play tbh, especially considering the potential for creating unsuitable stuff. Not to mention the fact that it supports webcams and voice comms. Good grief!		2011-10-10 22:46:00

Author:
Kiminski
Posts: 545

Dont say grief! But yeah, there is a notice on the packaging that says 'Online content unrated' so why is there any problem at all?2011-10-10 23:00:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Ok folks, let's re-un-derail this thread... Not a thread about disney, but about understanding exactly what these griefers grief for. Do you think kids actually ban for these frivolous sexual innuendos? or more parents?
They're likely passive-aggressive individuals who get upset or purposefully offended by everything and try to exercise power over others through indirect means by reporting them.		2011-10-10 23:13:00

Author:
Ayneh
Posts: 2454

They're likely passive-aggressive individuals who get upset or purposefully offended by everything and try to exercise power over others through indirect means by reporting them.

That's a fairly specious bit of logic. The same could be said of people who get upset over content being filtered and moderated on privately owned servers. The same could be said of anyone whose opinions we may not see eye to eye with.		2011-10-10 23:35:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

I would almost rather someone be legitimately offended by this stuff rather than just being passive agressive2011-10-10 23:52:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

That's a fairly specious bit of logic. The same could be said of people who get upset over content being filtered and moderated on privately owned servers. The same could be said of anyone whose opinions we may not see eye to eye with.
I dunno it's either that or they're massive prudes.		2011-10-10 23:52:00

Author:
Ayneh
Posts: 2454

I don't feel that this is MM's fault. I just think it is time that they acknowledge that they made a game aimed towards kids that has gone over the heads of many children, and gained an adult audience that is mature, and wants less Disney and more Lionsgate
I am hoping this is MM's next game.

In regards to the OP, you cannot predict any user behaviour in this crazy game, so try to keep it on the down low and work it into your level/game title like Insomniac do with Ratchet & Clank.

The problem with you lot is that your levels get plays, and therefore more muppets.		2011-10-11 04:40:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

If I create a back up of the level on my moon, delete the one that gets moderated, and re upload the back up, does that mean it will come up unmoderated?2011-10-11 05:14:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

If I create a back up of the level on my moon, delete the one that gets moderated, and re upload the back up, does that mean it will come up unmoderated?

I guess so. If I'm not embarassingly misinformed, the levels on the Moon are part of your profile, something that's in your console and not in the servers. I don't think they could access it.		2011-10-11 12:24:00

Author:
SnipySev
Posts: 2452

I don't think they could access it.

In theory you're right--but I'm betting there's something in the ToS that would allow them to do so if they so desired. Or maybe I'm just cynical.		2011-10-11 17:18:00

Author:
xero
Posts: 2419

Maybe you could capture a moderated level as an object then place it in an empty level space and republish it that way?2011-10-11 17:41:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

I like Ungreth's Idea2011-10-11 18:37:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Maybe you could capture a moderated level as an object then place it in an empty level space and republish it that way?

The whole level? I captured an almost complete level with a titanic dragbox once. Even knowing the progression would be generally up and left, I had stupidly begun by building the entrance in the middle, so the ceiling got in the way and had to lower it all. I thought my PS3 was going to melt, and said level isn't really big or complex. The lag! IT'S OVER 9000!

Although I felt like a conqueror by the end, when I checked all the contraptions and logic and realized the game didn't ballse up any of it But I suppose capturing it as an object would be much worse than just moving it around.		2011-10-11 18:50:00

Author:
SnipySev
Posts: 2452

The whole level? I captured an almost complete level with a titanic dragbox once. Even knowing the progression would be generally up and left, I had stupidly begun by building the entrance in the middle, so the ceiling got in the way and had to lower it all. I thought my PS3 was going to melt, and said level isn't really big or complex. The lag! IT'S OVER 9000!

Although I felt like a conqueror by the end, when I checked all the contraptions and logic and realized the game didn't ballse up any of it But I suppose capturing it as an object would be much worse than just moving it around.

Yeah, it does lag up pretty bad, and the whole process can be a pain in the butt, but it's do-able if you're patient. I've captured and replaced levels many times, most often due to the bug in LBP1 where pistons, wobble bolts, etc freeze up after so many hours in create mode, but also to split LBP1 levels into two parts when revamping them in LBP2. At least in LBP2 it doesn't tend to screw up some of your logic wiring like it did in LBP1.		2011-10-11 19:27:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

whether or whether not something is offensive is a matter of opinion and this game is worldwide so the opinions in question will most defiantly differ, and possibly quite drastically. i would back up, and then put it on a flash drive, making it impossible to access unless you put it in the machine. also, you could always put a code on the level so when you enter you have to enter a 4 digit number, then put the code up on lbpc and explain your reasons for doing so. this may lower the risk of moderation. also, what is seen as 'suggestive' is also a matter of opinion.2011-10-11 22:36:00

Author:
nerzdadestroyer
Posts: 1527

I suppose my stance on this sort of thing is that I should have the right to offend people with my creative outputs (be that music, films, comedy, artwork, LBP levels) just as much as anyone has the right to be offended by them - the two can't and shouldn't exist without each other. I think that if the box says "Online content unrated" then the player or the player's parents are making a clear choice to take the good with the bad, the great thing about LBP is that even with all the potential for obscenities and immature levels, 99% (once you ignore the bomb survivals) is totally harmless stuff.2011-10-12 00:01:00

Author:
Skalio-
Posts: 920


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