Archive: 45 posts

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I've noticed that a lot of components are under utilized in LBP2; some because it is easier to just plug a patch into existing logic, and some because they are not quite understood. My vote has to go to the XOR gate. The XOR gate is one of the most powerful, yet most underused, logic gates in lbp2. It is a valuable component in binary subtraction. It has been ignored in comparisons where one needs to determine which condition is true. I can't tell you how many times I have seen an extensive line of logic put in place where an XOR would do it. There must be more. which one would you choose, and why?

2011-10-04 09:21:00 Author: tdarb Posts: 689

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I would have answered "Selector", because I didn't know what they did. But then I learned about what the selector does and I use it in like every logic chip I ever make it seems haha. Hm, I'd have to think about this one. I use pretty much everything except the randomizer, but that's because I have no need for it, not because it's underused.

2011-10-04 11:21:00 Author: RabidJellyfish Posts: 130

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In my recent experiments with logic, I did start to notice how overlooked the OR and XOR gates are. I already used the AND a lot because it's crucial for most logic but I never really cared about thinking how the other gates could solve a tricky logic setup. Then I used the XOR in a sackbot in my level that greatly simplified the circuits I needed to make. That moment I had some sort of epiphany, very similar to the one I had when I realized the importance of AND gates months ago. People underestimate the versatility of these tools, really. I have a few LBP2 friends from another forum that aren't near as well informed about the Create mode as the people who frequent LBP sites, and they just seem to not understand how most tools work and what they serve for, even after completing the tutorials. When I summon a simple flying vehicle or controllable sackbot and show my friends its circuits, they always say how difficult it must be to work with the circuits and logic. And I always tell them how easy it becomes when you get to know the range of tools, explore them and start to think logically. It's like they choose not to believe me on how simple it becomes. Once one of them told me "It at least there was a tool that allowed you to easily change the states of other tools". He obviously didn't explore the tools bag that much or he would have found a selector quite useful One would have to reflect for quite long in order to come up with general stuff LBP2 can't do.

2011-10-04 11:54:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452

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I'd agree with the OP about the XOR gate. I've rarely used it at all, it's hard to find a situation where I would use it. For my first level, i did create what I like to call a "selective XOR gate", for something that is activate when a certain input is active, but not when the other input (or both inputs) is (are) active. I would also say that the toggle is underused.... mainly because it's useless because a selector does a better job.

2011-10-04 12:30:00 Author: Ali_Star Posts: 4085

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I used it, several times, and I must agree it is most excellent. Everyone should know how great and useful they are, but they dont. Ive actually had thoughts about this before, thinking about how amazing they are and how no one else seems to use them.

2011-10-04 13:22:00 Author: ATMLVE Posts: 1177

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I used it, several times, and I must agree it is most excellent. Everyone should know how great and useful they are, but they dont. Ive actually had thoughts about this before, thinking about how amazing they are and how no one else seems to use them. Maybe someone should make a tutorial thread on the wonders of the XOR gate..... hint hint

2011-10-04 13:54:00 Author: Ali_Star Posts: 4085

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Rods. Nobody around here really seems to know how to get a firm grip on their rod! All I ever see is limp pistons...

2011-10-04 20:08:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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If you mean logic components then I guess the toggle thing. I think I've used it only a couple of times.

2011-10-04 20:29:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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I use selectors all the time, they're very useful. My vote goes to the Spring Bolt (http://wiki.lbpcentral.com/Sprung_bolt).

2011-10-04 20:58:00 Author: kirbyman62 Posts: 1893

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I've got zillions of logic bits in my level, and I can't think of any XOR gates used. How about someone elaborates on its usefulness with an example of its use?

2011-10-04 21:04:00 Author: ThisDudeRufus Posts: 170

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I still have not used a toggle. But have used an XOR gate. I can't remember what for, but I know I've used one! I also haven't seen many level use the old bombs. Anyone else feel this way?

2011-10-04 21:10:00 Author: Jedi_1993 Posts: 1518

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I still have not used a toggle. But have used an XOR gate. I can't remember what for, but I know I've used one! I also haven't seen many level use the old bombs. Anyone else feel this way? I do! I love bombs, so mocuh potential, and no-one likes them after bomb surivals Creature brains are another one, Sackbots really destroyed any point to these.

2011-10-04 21:49:00 Author: kirbyman62 Posts: 1893

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Maybe someone should make a tutorial thread on the wonders of the XOR gate..... hint hint That would be nice. I understand the basic concept of a XOR (it's like a hallway light with light switches on either end of the hall--both down or both up=light off; one up and one down=light on), but aside from light switches, I don't know what else you might use it for. As for me, I'm not sure about underused tools, but there are several underused applications of tools. For example, you can set a stiff piston's strength to zero and it will force two objects to remain parallel and, depending on the min/max lengths, it can force those two objects to stay within a certain distance (not too far but not too close) of each other. A zero strength wobble bolt can allow an object to freely pivot within a certain range. For example, set a wobble to 90 degrees and you can make a door that can swing open without going too far and swing closed without going inside the door opening. Combine it with a joystick rotator and you can make a turret that can be aimed by a joystick but has a limit on how far it can turn.

2011-10-04 22:31:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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I made ton of logic and i can say XOR and Toggle are once that i nearly never use

2011-10-04 22:38:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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The XOR gate is one of the most powerful, yet most underused, logic gates in lbp2. It is a valuable component in binary subtraction. It has been ignored in comparisons where one needs to determine which condition is true. I can't tell you how many times I have seen an extensive line of logic put in place where an XOR would do it. I'm with the others; I think you should do a tute or a blog on this subject because I almost never use the XOR either. Granted, I don't do much in the way of math in LBP2, but I think that a feature on the XOR would be super handy...perhaps too many of use are opting for the less-restrictive OR gate.

2011-10-04 22:58:00 Author: Chazprime Posts: 587

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Well XOR Gate is key element in numerical logic and adders

2011-10-04 23:16:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Definitely Jetpacks.

2011-10-05 00:52:00 Author: Det Posts: 37

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I made ton of logic and i can say XOR and Toggle are once that i nearly never use Same, I never find a use for XOR and Toggle, Also i never find a use for Rods and elastic. *mew

2011-10-05 00:57:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261

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I personaly don't think I ever used XOR, tho I might of used it in my chalkboy logic I might have to check ^^

2011-10-05 10:44:00 Author: The_Lil_JoKeR Posts: 745

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What an interesting topic! I have used a single XOR across all my levels and creations so I see very little use for it in basic level functions. This may sound strange but NOT gates are occasionally redundant and unnecessary in several situations because most switches and sensors can have an inverted output. Like a tag sensor hooked up to a NOT is redundant. Now, if you need both the regular and inverted outputs for something (which is often the case) then you would most certainly need a NOT. I personally think that the fact that an inverted NOT isn't anything more than a big, square node shows it's redundancy. I use toggles all the time when building a new level in which global settings are a big part. I have a toggle hooked up to a global lighting tweaker (this would be the global lighting for the level) and a NOT gate hooked from the toggle to the other default global lighting tweaker, so I can simply change the on state to keep the global lighting set for easy testing. I think that's a fairly useful use for it. What I pretty much hate and never use is the projectile sensor.. It's almost completely useless on a sackbot since water is the only thing that won't kill a standard sackbot and since it only registers the pre set projectiles.. A tag and impact sensor pairing is much more versatile then a projectile sensor and behaves very similarly.

2011-10-07 23:50:00 Author: Dortr Posts: 548

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I've used the XOR gate in pretty much all of my creations, but in comparison to other logic pieces it's used sparingly, like once or twice. I find its purpose is pretty one dimensional in terms of what it can be used for. Of course its use is an essential one, but it doesn't have as many real world applications as an AND or OR gate does. I wouldn't say it's under used in that people should try and use them more, it's just that they're rarely needed and so people have no reason to use them. I agree with others' sentiments in this thread though, I use the XOR and toggles the least - the latter mainly because the selector can be used to replicate a toggle, and go far beyond it.

2011-10-08 00:03:00 Author: Xaif Posts: 365

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Maybe someone should make a tutorial thread on the wonders of the XOR gate..... hint hint There's one here (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=58316-Mini-tutorial-Applying-different-analogue-signals-to-a-single-input) which explains (IMO) the most useful application of an XOR, which is as a zero-latency (and potentially lower thermo) replacement for the 'relay' circuit design, which is typically a circuit node on a microchip, for which you use the microchip's 'activate' input to control whether the signal passes through the 'relay' or not.

2011-10-09 02:44:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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Ahh, I had almost forgotten about this thread. Very interesting to read what everyone said. The XOR gate will never get used as much as other gates just because of what it does, but I think it does get overlooked quite a bit because people just forget about it and find other solutions using the tools they are more familiar with. There's nothing really wrong with that, but it can lead to unnecessary complexity. Another fun thing it does that is along the same lines of what Aya was talking about, is signal inversion on digital signals. Say you have some logic that outputs a digital signal, and sometimes you want its current state, and sometimes you want the opposite. Run it to an XOR gate and attach a switch. If the switch is off, you get the normal output. If you flip the switch on, you get the opposite. Here's a real world example that will be completely impractical for most people: http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q149/tbradt/lbp/xor/ADDlabeled.jpg This is two binary numbers being added. We won't concern ourselves too much with why it works, but I have 2 being added to 6, and getting 8 as the answer. The main thing is that the XOR gates are all outputting exactly what they are receiving from the bottom register. What happens if I activate the add/subtract toggle? I'm glad you asked. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q149/tbradt/lbp/xor/subtract.jpg I still have the same numbers being input, but this time the XOR gates have inverted their output. The result is that instead of adding, I now have 2 being subtracted from 6, resulting in 4. I know, I know, most people will never use that, but it does illustrate one of the many uses for XOR gates. P.S.-The first time I put together that logic I too forgot about XOR gates. I created a not so cleverly designed chip to invert the input signals based on the state of the toggle. The next day I was messing around and realized how silly that was.

2011-10-09 12:49:00 Author: tdarb Posts: 689

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http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q149/tbradt/lbp/xor/ADDlabeled.jpg Ah. So that's what you meant in the first post. For some reason I thought you meant its use in a full adder, like... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Full_Adder.svg/500px-Full_Adder.svg.png ...but you actually meant using it to toggle a one's complement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One%27s_complement) of a binary number. What's kinda neat about this is using the same signal for the "carry in" to make the math work, effectively ending up with a two's complement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two%27s_complement) system. There's another fairly obscure XOR use I can think of, although probably not much use in practise. If you have one wire containing only a digital value, and one wire containing only an analog value, you can plug both into an XOR to multiplex both values onto a single wire. The only practical use I've ever come across for this is for sound objects set to "Modify Sound" or "Modify Volume" mode, so you can control the modifier, and when the sound plays, at the same time. However, it's probably simpler to just put the sound object on a microchip, and use the enable input instead.

2011-10-09 19:13:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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Ah. So that's what you meant in the first post. For some reason I thought you meant its use in a full adder, like... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Full_Adder.svg/500px-Full_Adder.svg.png ...but you actually meant using it to toggle a one's complement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One%27s_complement) of a binary number. What's kinda neat about this is using the same signal for the "carry in" to make the math work, effectively ending up with a two's complement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two%27s_complement) system. Yup. You can even take it one step further. Take your S output on the adder just after the second XOR and loop it back to the A input. Then just remove the A input from the outside of your chip, so you are left with B, Cin, S, and Cout. Now your adder has persistence. It will hold whatever value it is initialized to, and still has all the functionality of a full adder (minus the A input). Chain a few together and connect the XORs as I did above, and you now have what I feel is one of the most powerful bits of logic in LBP2. Pulse a binary value in, and it will add it to your current value. Pulse it in along with a pulse to indicate subtraction, and you will subtract from it. It is fantastic for scoreboards where you don't want to use the score giver, or as a money bank for a RTS or Tower Defense level for use in building new units (I think I may do a tut on this tonight at some point). You can even stack it all to handle multiple simultaneous additions and subtractions to handle any case of overflow with 0 latency, real time, output. The only lag in it would be before or after the adder. There's another fairly obscure XOR use I can think of, although probably not much use in practise. If you have one wire containing only a digital value, and one wire containing only an analog value, you can plug both into an XOR to multiplex both values onto a single wire. The only practical use I've ever come across for this is for sound objects set to "Modify Sound" or "Modify Volume" mode, so you can control the modifier, and when the sound plays, at the same time. However, it's probably simpler to just put the sound object on a microchip, and use the enable input instead. That's interesting. I've not thought of that. If we can use this to merge digital/analog signals onto a wire in that way, I wonder if there may be a better way to do ADC than we have considered. Probably not, but it's fun to ponder.

2011-10-09 21:32:00 Author: tdarb Posts: 689

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depends what you mean by "underused" i usually say underused about something which deserves to be used more but is overlooked for whatever reasons, in which case i would say my most underused part of lbp2 is the good old fashioned piston - i usually nowadays use followers to make doors etc because you can easily move objects to multiple positions with one microchip, and i only use pistons as a last resort if i need a quick fix for some piece of broken logic. if you mean the tool that i use least i would say elastic. i dont think ive ever touched it. not once, even in lbp1. its just a totally pointless tool imho

2011-10-09 23:06:00 Author: Skalio- Posts: 920

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There's another fairly obscure XOR use I can think of, although probably not much use in practise. If you have one wire containing only a digital value, and one wire containing only an analog value, you can plug both into an XOR to multiplex both values onto a single wire. The only practical use I've ever come across for this is for sound objects set to "Modify Sound" or "Modify Volume" mode, so you can control the modifier, and when the sound plays, at the same time. However, it's probably simpler to just put the sound object on a microchip, and use the enable input instead. an OR gate will do the same thing although i am starting to use 3 port XORs a lot more lately to replace node-in-chip and to replace old "AND NOT" setup (a NOT gate in front of one input of a 2 port AND gate)

2011-10-10 08:15:00 Author: evret Posts: 612

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In terms of logic components I'd agree with you. But IMO the most underused thing in LBP is elastic.

2011-10-15 19:26:00 Author: ADS_LEGEND Posts: 140

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I vote for AND gate.

2011-10-15 21:12:00 Author: Cronos Dage Posts: 396

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It all depends on what your making...(IMO)

2011-10-15 21:19:00 Author: zzmorg82 Posts: 948

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The most underused component in LBP is love! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4p8qxGbpOk

2011-10-15 22:08:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452

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i'd say the 3-way switch. since lbp2 is out it's pretty much useless.

2011-10-16 00:08:00 Author: Xtrahuman Posts: 431

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I still dont fully understant the full usage of Batteries...... ....I an only realised for the first time what a direction splitter actually does *faceplam*

2011-10-16 00:15:00 Author: samalot Posts: 591

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I use batteries with trigger explosives to emit explosions.

2011-10-16 20:59:00 Author: ThisDudeRufus Posts: 170

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I still dont fully understant the full usage of Batteries...... Predominantly for sequencers, but as their output value can be tweaked they're useful for other things too.

2011-10-17 07:39:00 Author: Xaif Posts: 365

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My vote goes to the Sticker Sensor. I have never seen it in any of the custom LBP2 levels I have played. And its LBP1 equivalent was equally rarely used, IMO. i'd say the 3-way switch. since lbp2 is out it's pretty much useless. Not useless, but it is just one step more complex to use than a 2-way lever, which probably makes creators use a controlinator instead. And yes, personally I rather sit in chair controlling a large crane than running around pulling 3-way levers. I use toggles all the time when building a new level in which global settings are a big part. I used to do that but a one-shot counter is so more versatile. I always end up with the need to reset a bunch of toggle switches and a basic toggle switch cannot do that. Also, if a player's choice is broadcasted to other logic using a tag, I am more and more inclined nowadays to wield an analog signal and a signal strength tag sensor; it fits nicely with a counter that can be set to 1, 2, 3 or whatever number of choices a player has. A toggle switch only allows for true or false.

2011-10-19 15:01:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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hey what about the bouncy option in the object modifer i never seen a level based on that

2011-10-20 14:50:00 Author: mutant_sackboy Posts: 3

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hey what about the bouncy option in the object modifer i never seen a level based on that I think they use it in King Klong (Victoria's boss level), but no, it doesn't have much practical use. This thread is great. The amount of stuff you can put in a level that people don't think they see enough of is great.

2011-10-20 19:58:00 Author: kirbyman62 Posts: 1893

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Rods. Seriously, I can't remember using rods (or even pistons that much) in any LBP2 levels.

2011-10-20 21:32:00 Author: alexbull_uk Posts: 1287

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hey what about the bouncy option in the object modifer i never seen a level based on that I used it for the walls in this (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=64507-Ancient-Hoops). It's also quite useful if you want to add some more physicality to falling objects.

2011-10-21 08:11:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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Spring bolts. They've become pretty much obsolete now that we have gyroscopes.

2011-10-21 19:48:00 Author: Blue Helmet Posts: 306

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Hero Hair! *ahem* Rods, I agree with Alexbull_uk. Now we have the Ant-Gravity Tweakers, there is no demand for rods.

2011-10-21 19:59:00 Author: craigmond Posts: 2426

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I would have to say the "floaty" materials are pretty rarely used. I often use rods to suspend point bubbles or to add structural integrity when I have two objects that need to stay together but be visibly separate.

2011-10-21 20:04:00 Author: schm0 Posts: 1239

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something that I've noticed both looking at community logics and reading this, no one ever thinks to plug gates back into its self, except for AND gates this is very useful over all and also pluging gates into each other, some very interesting things occur when the wires are plugged into the gate they come out of. Not really a tool, but it's still something i very rarly ever see, and a lot of people probably won't think of it themselves.

2011-10-24 05:49:00 Author: Neonbyte Posts: 3

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I actually used ten XOR gates a week back for a multiplayer game in which two players may ally, but if only one does, then it shows a red box until it changes to both or neither.

2011-10-25 20:58:00 Author: ThisDudeRufus Posts: 170

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