Archive: 31 posts

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Like the title says, our monetary system, our monetary based economy, our monetary based lives, is it all past it's use by date? It's had a good run so is it time for something new? I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and personally I think it is outdated, and I've met a few people who agree so I'm just wondering how everyone else stands.

2011-09-08 03:21:00 Author: SR20DETDOG Posts: 2431

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Well I only think pennies are outdated.

2011-09-08 03:37:00 Author: sackboy7789 Posts: 280

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No, it isn't. Humanity is a selfish creature motivated mainly by greed. People need to have some form of self satisfaction to obtain for themselves rather then do something for someone else for nothing. Yes, sure, there's a few exceptions and blah blah blah, but there's no way we are capable of overthrowing our monetary system. We just aren't good enough for that communistic utopia you've alluded to. /sigh

2011-09-08 03:42:00 Author: RockSauron Posts: 10882

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Our entire lives are based on economy rigth now, we just care about money and don't see the important things of life. Like having fun. But some pepole say: Be as greedy as you can in Earth, there is no money in Hell.

2011-09-08 03:48:00 Author: ALEXhatena Posts: 1110

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For interested parties. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3sKwwAaCU In built into the monetary system is foreclosure and crashes. The Global Economy is based on continual growth - where-as the earth is a finite space, where infinite growth is not sustainable. At some point in the near future, these two incompatibilities are going to clash head on.

2011-09-08 04:03:00 Author: Macnme Posts: 1970

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I'm not sure if it is past its use by date or not - I mean, each coin is basically just a bit of whatever's valuable at the time - that's the way I see it anyway. It seems odd how some have too much, and others not enough - I suppose I'd be interested to hear an alternative to money - for example, how would people get things they wanted? I suppose money is very much a middle man for bartering - back in the old days I may offer to clean your house for a chicken or something. Nowadays, I'd clean your house for money, which I'd then use to buy a chicken. So, whats the alternative?

2011-09-08 04:07:00 Author: standby250 Posts: 1113

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No, it isn't. Humanity is a selfish creature motivated mainly by greed. People need to have some form of self satisfaction to obtain for themselves rather then do something for someone else for nothing. Yes, sure, there's a few exceptions and blah blah blah, but there's no way we are capable of overthrowing our monetary system. We just aren't good enough for that communistic utopia you've alluded to. /sigh You're right, for a moneyless society to work it would require people to think, and live, in a whole new way. There wouldn't really be a place for greed. However, that doesn't mean it's not an outdated system, all it means is that it will never happen at this point in time. But some pepole say: Be as greedy as you can in Earth, there is no money in Hell. That's just sad. It seems odd how some have too much, and others not enough Unfortunately, it's not really. That's just the nature of the system, in a monetary society there will always be people who get the short end of the stick. Imagine this. Let's just say that everyone on earth right now had the same amount of money, for example purposes let's say $1000, well if we all have the same amount then does it really matter whether we all have $1000, $100,000 or $100. Well no, since it's all even it doesn't matter. It'd be like contestants on a game show all having the same amount of points, give them all 1000 points to start off with and they may as still be on 0. I suppose I'd be interested to hear an alternative to money - for example, how would people get things they wanted? Well, what if everyone had $0? Since if we all have an even amount what should it matter? We'd then have to go back to my response to Rock, there wouldn't be any place for greed. Take plain old air for example, no one bothers to hoard air, to have more air then another person because it's pointless. Air is is free an readily available, so what's the point? Now think about this, our Earth has enough resources for everyone, and if there's no money then it's essentially free. An abundance of resources and they're free, kinda like air So the alternative is to essentially have no alternative, there's more than enough in our world for everyone and it's all free. The trick would be to make people want this, since people would still have to work. But really, like you said, money is a middle man, instead of working for money to buy things you would just work and get the things you want. However, like it or not, money is power. And if you've got power why would you want to give it up? Obviously it's more complicated than that, but I've tried to sum it up as much as possible.

2011-09-08 04:12:00 Author: SR20DETDOG Posts: 2431

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Whoever invented money was a complete idiot. They did not comprehend the power of round, metal discs with engravings and rectangular pieces of paper with faces on them. And, before you even mention it: global communism will never happen. As long as there's greed and corruption, there will always be the few who rule the rest (just like every governmental system in today's society, oh-hoh-hoh!). ... but no matter what way we look at it, there'll always be a royalty system that'll form in place of money. As bad as money is, it's much better now than it was back then. Sure, we got greedy Capitalist pigs and selfish Communist swines (and everything else in between), but back then, the world had to deal with monarchs that thought of themselves as gods and warlords that enslaved entire nations of people. We have SOME people like that today (*cough*KimJongIl*cough*), but it's not nearly as bad as back then. And, as history has shown, those with too much money (who don't share) are eventually killed in a violent, agonizing death. As long as there's independent thought, human nature will balance things out. And... as long as there's something we want or need on this planet, there'll always be a value on it.

2011-09-08 04:40:00 Author: Outlaw-Jack Posts: 5757

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Monarchs were never the problem with the monetary system. The problem has always been the bankers

2011-09-08 05:01:00 Author: Macnme Posts: 1970

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Didn't the monarchs kill off the bankers if they didn't see eye-to-eye?

2011-09-08 05:02:00 Author: Outlaw-Jack Posts: 5757

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What could we use intead? Return to trading goods? How would that work out in this age? "Sure, I can give your farm insurance. How will you pay me?" "How about 40kg of corn?" "Corn? I'm already packed with that! All you farmers pay me in sacks of grain! Can't you give me a cow or two sheep or six chickens?" "Nope. Demand for that has been high, mister" "Oh, ok. What about cheese? Do you have 11 wheels of cheese?" "Bummer, I've only got 9 I can give ya" "You know what, I'll go with that. I'm running low on cheese, so I can't really say no to 9 wheels." "We have a deal, friend. Sorry I can't spare any more of it, business has been hard..." "Don't worry. My wife loves cheese, hopefully it'll make me forget what happened last week. I shouldn't have accepted that payment in 1500kg of manure." "1.5 tons of manure? Now for that I can trade you a cow, sir!" "Wow, this is excellent news! Now to phone my landlord and convince him to let me bring a cow into the apartment..."

2011-09-08 05:12:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452

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What could we use intead? Return to trading goods? How would that work out in this age? That's my whole point, we wouldn't use anything. Everything and anything would be available to everyone. It's sounds stupid, but the video Macnme posted shows just how much more ridiculous our current system is. Like I said earlier, there's already enough, food, water, energy etc for everyone. So why on earth do some people have more than enough and some people have almost none? It just doesn't make sense. We've put a value on almost everything, which means you can have something unless you pay for it. However a monetary system doesn't function unless someone gets the short end of the stick.

2011-09-08 05:17:00 Author: SR20DETDOG Posts: 2431

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The current system is far more fair! If everything was free, what motive would we have to work? I mean really, if lazy Joe does nothing all day yet can have everything he wants, what is the point. Why farm, build, invent, study! If everything is free, then nothing will be made or maintained. This may be all fine and dandy for some lazy sack who wants to sit in a cave all day, but what about someone who is willing to work to improve the quality of his life? Now HE gets "the short end of the stick" now he can't do anything. He is forced to live like scum because hard work is no longer rewarded. Progress cannot be made without incentive and without it, we can only regress.

2011-09-08 06:18:00 Author: Littlebigdude805 Posts: 1924

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So you think it's fair that we are taxed when we are paid - taxed when we save - and taxed when we spend? a word comes to mind - cluster*something* - luckily for decency's sake, the full word escapes me The alternate isn't "everything is free" - we would very quickly run out of the most sought after resources. The alternate, is we all work for the good of each other (rather than for the good of bankers); In the current system, it's the bankers who syphon off the profits of everyones labours (through interest payments on loans - for money which they never had) - without having to do any of the work themselves. Imagine an experimental housing estate - where every house grows a certain crop in a window box - house 1 grows potatoes, house 2 keeps chickens - house 3 grows chicken feed etc; and all houses share their crops. All houses on the estate would be well fed and self sustained - and no-one would be taxed for anything. This is a governments worst nightmare

2011-09-08 06:27:00 Author: Macnme Posts: 1970

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The current system is far more fair! If everything was free, what motive would we have to work? I mean really, if lazy Joe does nothing all day yet can have everything he wants, what is the point. Why farm, build, invent, study! If everything is free, then nothing will be made or maintained. This may be all fine and dandy for some lazy sack who wants to sit in a cave all day, but what about someone who is willing to work to improve the quality of his life? Now HE gets "the short end of the stick" now he can't do anything. He is forced to live like scum because hard work is no longer rewarded. Progress cannot be made without incentive and without it, we can only regress. Another good point, one that always comes up when I talk to anyone about this. Well, I don't know about you, but If I was given all the time in the world with everything at my disposal I sure as hell wouldn't be wasting it by lying in bed watching TV, I think I'd go insane if I did. People would work because they want to, not because they have to. If everything is in abundance won’t people get lazy and start avoiding working and thinking? If everything was in abundance, people would go from merely ‘surviving’ to actually ‘living’. When we don’t have to worry about where our next meal comes from, we start thinking beyond material things. We start exploring science and art and culture and space, and all the boundless frontiers out there that are still undiscovered. If this is hard to believe, visit YouTube and check out the millions of independent videos about new technology, new studies, new theories, new engineering, new philosophies etc. that people have created and uploaded for absolutely no monetary profit. They have done this to spread the joy of learning. For the love of sharing ideas. And most important – because man is designed to “create beauty”, not “earn waste paper”.

2011-09-08 06:55:00 Author: SR20DETDOG Posts: 2431

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I think it goes without saying that everything is going to go digital. There will be no such thing as physical money in the future. The only evidence of actually owning any money will be numbers on a screen. And once everything becomes digital, the name of currency will become different. We will pay for things with ease, causing us to spend more. Which means we will take out more loans hence granting banks the power to create more money. Inflation will continue more rapid than ever before. The concept of money won't change however.

2011-09-08 09:02:00 Author: Alismuffin Posts: 1328

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Sorry guys, but a system where the junkie living in a hut down the road never wanting to work and spending the few money he has on drugs gets access to the same stuff than a guy working his arrse off in a dead end job to give his family a better life? I don't think that's very fair either. There'll always be parasites, slackers and freeloaders no matter what system we have.

2011-09-08 13:36:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452

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I'm not sure if it is past its use by date or not - I mean, each coin is basically just a bit of whatever's valuable at the time - that's the way I see it anyway. It seems odd how some have too much, and others not enough - I suppose I'd be interested to hear an alternative to money - for example, how would people get things they wanted? I suppose money is very much a middle man for bartering - back in the old days I may offer to clean your house for a chicken or something. Nowadays, I'd clean your house for money, which I'd then use to buy a chicken. So, whats the alternative? The current system is far more fair! If everything was free, what motive would we have to work? I mean really, if lazy Joe does nothing all day yet can have everything he wants, what is the point. Why farm, build, invent, study! If everything is free, then nothing will be made or maintained. This may be all fine and dandy for some lazy sack who wants to sit in a cave all day, but what about someone who is willing to work to improve the quality of his life? Now HE gets "the short end of the stick" now he can't do anything. He is forced to live like scum because hard work is no longer rewarded. Progress cannot be made without incentive and without it, we can only regress. Yeah you guys need to watch more Star Trek where there isn't any money or need for it.

2011-09-08 15:31:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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When we're born, none of this economical bull crap matters. When we first learn of it, most, if not all of us are confused and consider it useless and without any good point. We learn to accept it as it is, and yet we still complain about it. When we die, none of it is going to matter. This is why I spend so much time in the woods, away from all of the unnecessities of human society. And humanity is not fueled by greed. Pleasure is. Ugggh, rantarantarant. :l

2011-09-08 17:25:00 Author: Sackwise Posts: 305

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Currency should always be an option, trade has been an option since the beggining of humanity. I like technology as much as the next guy, but im not trusting some stupid machine with my hard earned cash, power outage, and your screwed, end of story.

2011-09-09 00:04:00 Author: Charlemagne Posts: 513

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Sorry guys, but a system where the junkie living in a hut down the road never wanting to work and spending the few money he has on drugs gets access to the same stuff than a guy working his arrse off in a dead end job to give his family a better life? I don't think that's very fair either. There'll always be parasites, slackers and freeloaders no matter what system we have. Yeah. And right now, it's the bankers who are the parasites and freeloaders. Paying themselves millions in bonuses from our futute earnings.

2011-09-09 02:18:00 Author: Macnme Posts: 1970

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Well since money is based on blind faith between the two people making the transaction, and since we don't have blind faith in each other......well yeah no I don't think so.

2011-09-10 00:53:00 Author: Amigps Posts: 564

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I wouldn't say it's outdated...just not perfect. I think we(the world) needs to start a Universal Credit system. Save trees, copper, and silver and give us wrist watches/contact lenses/Barcodes with all our monies on it! (I have a feeling this idea is from a movie/video game...) But the issues with money from the start is how we determine the value of something. Teacher's really should get paid as much as doctor's these days. Same with construction workers and engineer's. Those people contribute so much to society. Where would be without them? Maybe if we had some kind of Universal Formula that could determine the values of a job or product....rather than just have it all be based on opinions. But I would say as technology advances, the monetary we have setup now may be totally different. But I doubt it will "die out" anytime soon.

2011-09-10 01:45:00 Author: comishguy67 Posts: 849

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Yeah. And right now, it's the bankers who are the parasites and freeloaders. Paying themselves millions in bonuses from our futute earnings. You can just not put your money in the bank. Put it in a safe and bury it in your backyard

2011-09-10 02:22:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452

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People need money. In reality, money has no value besides what we assign it, and if we remove that entirely, it would just be human instinct to assign values to other items instead. Take the native Americans for example - the Sioux especially - even they had currency in the form of horses - the more horses you owned, the richer you were. Things like this decided the leader of a tribe and various other things like that. And now it's much the same, except with paper and metal. Money will always stay with people, it's reassuring, it's part of the way a human operates, but I'm sure that the form money takes will undoubtedly change. It's already happening with debit and credit cards for example.

2011-09-11 00:17:00 Author: Skeggers Posts: 583

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Imagine an experimental housing estate - where every house grows a certain crop in a window box - house 1 grows potatoes, house 2 keeps chickens - house 3 grows chicken feed etc; and all houses share their crops. All houses on the estate would be well fed and self sustained - and no-one would be taxed for anything. This is a governments worst nightmare That is many peoples nightmares. Being forced to house chickens, or farm potatoes, and then give them away to my neighbors in return for chicken and potatoes >_> If only there were some people who would take that up as a full time profession, make these things in large quantities, then sell them to people. Maybe a small percentage of that money could then go some sort of organized group of people who's job it is to make sure the peace is kept and certain services are maintained (roads, postal services, fire fighters, police force, schools, military).

2011-09-11 01:35:00 Author: Littlebigdude805 Posts: 1924

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I think Japan is starting to implement a system where you can pay for goods with just your finger print. You would use your unique finger print as a code that is linked to your bank account almost like how a credit card works. That would be pretty cool if it went mainstream. Imagine going into a store, ringing up a few items, scanning your thumb and being out the door.

2011-09-11 02:30:00 Author: Enlong3 Posts: 357

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That is many peoples nightmares. Being forced to house chickens, or farm potatoes, and then give them away to my neighbors in return for chicken and potatoes >_> If only there were some people who would take that up as a full time profession, make these things in large quantities, then sell them to people. Maybe a small percentage of that money could then go some sort of organized group of people who's job it is to make sure the peace is kept and certain services are maintained (roads, postal services, fire fighters, police force, schools, military). It's a simplified model - but your system does nothing to address inflation, devaluation, national debt, limited resource, or big business conglomeration. Have you actually seen what national debt levels are at right now? Every country is servicing a MASSIVE debt - basically enslaved to the banking system. There's a simple, easy, one step solution to all of our current financial worries. Erase all debt and have Interest Free Loans issued by the government. Do you know why that's never going to happen? - Because the bankers won't allow it. Right now, loans are issued (at a national level) not on an ability to pay, but a willingness to lend. Why should our own governments have to "rent" it's own currency from the banks? So, as a society, we should ask ourselves - who should run things? The politicians that we vote for - or the bankers that we did not vote for? Moving money into purely digital form will just hand the bankers even more power and control.

2011-09-11 08:56:00 Author: Macnme Posts: 1970

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ogQ0uge06o

2011-09-11 09:20:00 Author: Bremnen Posts: 1800

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This has been rather painful to read. Let's start with what money is. Money--by which most of you seem to be referring to currency, which is not the same thing--has no intrinsic value in and of itself. It is 'worth' only what we agree it is worth. Since worth is largely defined by scarcity--more on that later--the less of X there is, the more X is worth to people who want it. Which is how we end up with inflation; more money is always being created, thus devaluing what is left. But what money truly is, really, is a stored unit of time. You've heard the phrase "time is money," yes? That phrase is quite true, only backwards. Money is time. And as soon as you start thinking of it that way, it makes more sense. If I wanted a loaf of bread I could (because I have invested the time) get flour, water, yeast, eggs, butter, and bake myself a loaf. And I do, from time to time. But instead, I take a unit of time (a few dollars) and I give them to someone else, in order to save myself the time required to grow wheat, raise chickens, build a fire (and an oven), etc etc etc. The person who I give that money to can then spread that money around to the people who do all of those things, saving them the time required to raise and grow everything. That's all that money is: a way to measure time. Unfortunately, bankers then came into the picture. Bankers are a logical extension of the entire monetary system; accretions of capital allow for investment in larger projects (such as, I don't know, sailing some boats around the world and accidentally bumping into another continent). However, the predatory nature of bankers (to say nothing of the meta-industries that have sprung up mushroomlike from the monetary system) is not an inevitability; I'll point you at the Islamic banking system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking) for an excellent counterexample. Under Shari'a, one may not earn interest (broadly speaking, it's obviously more complex). And thus you end up with a much more humane system. Moving on, someone mentioned Star Trek. This has been handled at great length by a great many people, but essentially Star Trek is what's known as a post-scarcity society. The general thinking is, if we can get to a point where energy is cheap (everything else flows from cheap energy; our looming lack of it is going to have profound effects on quality of life in the developed world), and everyone has what they need, then we will no longer have any need for money. That's a great theory, but it ultimately relies on a basic wilful disregard for human nature. Someone else--several someones--have blathered on about "well why should the shiftless layabout get the same as what I get?" My polite answer is "If it's not taking anything from you, shut up." My impolite answer is not printable in this forum. The funny thing, of course, is that such an experiment has actually been tried. And was wildly successful. Google "Mincome experiment" for more information, but the tl;dr version goes like this: everyone in a given town was guaranteed a minimum income, pegged in some fashion to ensure a decent quality of life. Common sense (ain't so common) would indicate you'd get a lot of layabouts doing nothing, right? Wrong! People worked less actual hours, but they worked harder. And, intriguingly, hospital visits dropped. People were less stressed, less prone to injury, less of a burden on the healthcare system. So for everyone whining about lazy people getting as much as everyone else, I leave you with a quote from one of my favourite authors: "It is generally considered preferable for opinions to be preceded by knowledge."

2011-09-13 04:10:00 Author: roux- Posts: 379

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Well put roux-. I agree that Usury should again be made a sin, or in modern terms, a crime. Accruing money, simply from the fact of owning money, is logically bankrupt. The inevitable consequence of this will be - The Rich Get Richer - The Poor get Poorer. Until the end of time. A quick check of the current financial system reveals this to be true - in most societies, the richest 10% will own more than 50% of the wealth (though it's alot MORE in some countries), while the bottom 50% will own less than 10% of the wealth (alot LESS in some countries) The truth is, there are enough resources currently for EVERYONE in the world to live a comfortable existance, with no-one wanting for food or clothing or education or healthcare - but we do not distribute things evenly. We favour the rich at the expense of the poor. And remember that money is fictional - it is a lie that we all choose to believe. For instance, it costs more than 1 penny to actually make 1 penny. So - How much is a penny worth? The answer is - what ever we choose to believe it's worth.

2011-09-13 13:19:00 Author: Macnme Posts: 1970

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