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#1

I can't learn logic.

Archive: 31 posts

I just can't. No matter what I do, I just can't think and process logic in my head.

I've been playing this game since about 3 months after LBP1 launched, and I haven't stopped. I'm good with the visual aspects of levels, but I'm a complete and utter failure when it comes to logic.

No matter how many video/level tutorials I watch/play through, no matter how many times I go through the official tutorials, it just doesn't stay.

I want to learn logic. I really, really do, but I just can't. 99% of the time, I have to haul someone in to my game and tell them what I want everything to do. My logic slaves. Well, I'd like to set the slaves free.

I just need some sort of really basic tutorial that explains each logic piece, what it can be used for.... I don't know.

Even when I do know what to do, the logic just gets all jumbled in my head. I look at a microchip with lots of logic in it, and it's like reading a foreign language. It doesn't make sense at all.

For the very small amount of logic that I have tried to make, I usually have to grab the objects with popit, and move them around and act out what's going to happen. While doing that, I have to talk it out to myself out loud.

"Ok, so if this box enters the proximity of this tag, this tag will emit triggering this sensor, which will turn on this switch..."

and after so long, it starts to get confusing to me and I can't do it anymore.

It completely stops me from making the things I want to make. All I can do is set up the layout of the level and the looks, and then I need to wait for some logic mastermind to log on to do all of my work for me. That, or I find a tutorial for what I want to make and just copy and paste the logic from the video or pictures.


Is there anything I can do, or am I screwed?

Logically confused,

-Meteor 		2011-08-20 18:19:00

Author:
littlebigmeteor
Posts: 396

If you want, you can invite me. I can do some really basic logic tutorials and stuff in a pod... You would never want me to describe something to you though... xD2011-08-20 18:26:00

Author:
Speedynutty68
Posts: 1614

Do it all bit by bit.
Don't try jumping into a complex robot that fires missiles at the player, then after every 2.6 missiles, turns into a flower that'll aid you across the level. Instead, trying making one things connect to another. Like a counter of 10 connecting to a piston of a door. Then verbally, out loud, explain it to yourself. Ok, so when I hit (Whatever) 10 times, the door will open. Ok, got that.

After all, that's all logic is. One thing, connected to another.		2011-08-20 18:27:00

Author:
Nurolight
Posts: 918

Then verbally, out loud, explain it to yourself. Ok, so when I hit (Whatever) 10 times, the door will open. Ok, got that.

xD I do that... It doesn't work very well with major logic systems... But I still do it. Somehow...		2011-08-20 18:35:00

Author:
Speedynutty68
Posts: 1614

I found that just by watching my friends in online create helped loads! If you're not sure what something does just ask them, I'm sure they'd explain.
Also, send me an invite! I'm pretty decent with logic but lack on visuals... together would could rule the craftworld mwuhahaha!!!
Sorry got a little carried away.		2011-08-20 18:52:00

Author:
Jedi_1993
Posts: 1518

If you cannot do it by head (not recommended anyway), write it out. You can do it in a bulleted list in the order it gets done or if you feel gutsy try a flowchart.

Them build it step by step and test each step for whether it does what you expected it to do. That is a good way to learn and prevents buried bugs. You can test for signals at each step by using sound effects set to global or lights.		2011-08-20 22:11:00

Author:
Antikris
Posts: 1340

I just learned by exploring the different pieces and testing with them. I learned just by trial and error, and I can now say I'm pretty good (according to my title)2011-08-20 22:55:00

Author:
lark98-2
Posts: 116

there is that whole thread about the process of creating logic step by step it's really good, and if you haven't read the wiki (http://wiki.lbpcentral.com/) check it out, it explains the logic elements individually, and during your travels if you find one that is kind of sparse, write all about it yourself by putting that one bit in a level and looking at all of it's settings to understand.

PS. I can't read music. No matter how hard I try, can't get it. But I was a Sound Engineer for a while though!		2011-08-20 23:03:00

Author:
Mr_Fusion
Posts: 1799

Just take it step-by-step 2011-08-20 23:15:00

Author:
zzmorg82
Posts: 948

About 3 months ago, I was in your exact same position. Great details, terrible logic. Well, the only honest tip anybody can give you is experience. Just expose yourself to as much logic as possible. Work yourself through it, talk out loud, label your microchips. If you didn't realize, all the switches can actually be made into a sentence. Let's say you want 2 different sensors to activate a light. Since Switch 1 OR Switch 2 can activate it, place an OR gate, for example.

OR gate: When (input 1) OR (input 2) are activated, (output) is activated.

AND gate: When (input 1) AND (input 2) are activated, (output) is activated.

NOT gate: When (input) is NOT activated, (output) is activated.

XOR gate: When (input 1) is activated and (input 2) is not, (output) is activated. (Note: These are hardly used.)

Keep in mind that these can be combined. For example...

When (OR input 1) OR (OR input 2) are activated, (NOT output) is not activated.

This simply logic progression is represented as an OR gate wired into a NOT gate. The two OR gate inputs turn off the NOT output, for example, a light.

These are the basics of logic and should help accomplish any basic task, if you need some more help I'd gladly comply. Message me on PSN, iiNunsmash3r.		2011-08-20 23:22:00

Author:
nunsmasher
Posts: 247

Also, keep in mind logic isn't for everyone. Some people have their specialtises in other areas. For example, I can't make very good quality music to save my life. But, if you really want to learn this, just take it bit by bit. I couldn't use logic for SO long, what finally helped was buliding in LBP 1. You just learn to use things VERY creativly in that game.2011-08-20 23:31:00

Author:
Undarivik
Posts: 442

well whatever you're doing, must be working because all your levels except one, have over a thousand plays. One has over 7K. I suck at logic as well and found the best for me is to do kinda like Dymus said, Just bit by bit. A lot of my logic is unorthodox and way more complex than it needs to be, but it works. I spent an hour trying to figure out how to do something and ended up using the old LBP1 method of dark matter and dissolve material. looking at it, placing a microchip and recreating what it did on the microchip.
Trial and error, practice and practice. I had made something and had wires strung out everywhere and a massive microchip and later saw a tutorial for exactly what I was doing and was like, really? All I needed was a couple of tags and selectors. *facepalm*

Also, have you tried this: Creator's Toolkit lots of logic and tools v 7.3 (http://lbp.me/v/1jdvkm) This thing has helped me out tremendously.		2011-08-21 00:19:00

Author:
biorogue
Posts: 8424

I reckon you just need to simplify the logic a little to understand it.
For example, if you're finding that an explanation for how an AND gate works is too complicated:

AND gate: When (input 1) AND (input 2) are activated, (output) is activated.

Think of it like this:

Both of these must be on to turn this one on.

2011-08-21 00:28:00

Author:
standby250
Posts: 1113

Some people just have there strenghts and weakness. What i did to learn logic, is on every logic piece, i pressed square for details to learn about everything, and then just thought about it logiclly. That and tutorials helped me. =)2011-08-21 00:57:00

Author:
fighterwindplus
Posts: 403

Do it all bit by bit.
Don't try jumping into a complex robot that fires missiles at the player, then after every 2.6 missiles, turns into a flower that'll aid you across the level. Instead, trying making one things connect to another. Like a counter of 10 connecting to a piston of a door. Then verbally, out loud, explain it to yourself. Ok, so when I hit (Whatever) 10 times, the door will open. Ok, got that.

After all, that's all logic is. One thing, connected to another.

This.

Even the biggest logic superguru will be thrown if presented with a complex circuit in front of them. You need to mentally break a circuit down into small, understandable chunks.


For the very small amount of logic that I have tried to make, I usually have to grab the objects with popit, and move them around and act out what's going to happen. While doing that, I have to talk it out to myself out loud.

"Ok, so if this box enters the proximity of this tag, this tag will emit triggering this sensor, which will turn on this switch..."

and after so long, it starts to get confusing to me and I can't do it anymore.


That's exactly the right approach. Look at one small section of your circuit, say to yourself what it does, and move on to the next. I'd also add: if things are getting confusing, place notes explaining what each section does. Rereading words is much easier than re-identifying the function of a circuit section.


Is there anything I can do, or am I screwed?

Don't worry! You're definitely not screwed. Learn the function of the components you're using - like Mr_Fusion said, the wiki (http://wiki.lbpcentral.com/Gadgets) is a good place to start. And keep that reference handy so you can check it whenever you need to. Don't get overwhelmed - work slowly and in small sections, and make sure you thoroughly understand (and label) each section. You'll get it. 		2011-08-21 03:04:00

Author:
Dr C
Posts: 122

Get ready for Mathematics! I'll explain what the basic logic gates REALLY do

The OR gate: The or gate take 2-100 inputs and activates whichever has the highest percentage. So if you have an or gate with 0, 0, 13 and 46 it takes 46. If you have 0 and 100 it takes 100, so its ''OR'', because if ANY of the inputs are above 1%, the gate is over 1%.

The AND gate: The and gate take 2-100 inputs and activates whichever has the lowest percentage. So if you have an and gate with 46, 13, 0 and 0 it takes 0 because that is the lowest. If you have 50 and 100 it takes 50, so its ''AND'' because if ANY of the inputs are under 99%, the gate is under 99%.

The XOR gate: The xor gate isnt very mathematical, it take 2-100 inputes and takes the highest input ONLY if there is only 1 input over 1%. So if you have an xor gate with 85 and 100 it takes 0, but if you have 0 and 85 it takes 85, so its ''XOR'' because X is one numeral so it means it can only take X or Y, not X and Y.

The NOT gate: The not gate takes 1 input and subtracts it from a hundred%, so if you have 47 it takes 53 because 100% - 47% is 53%. If you have a hundred it takes 0, so its ''NOT'' because if the input is over 1%, the gate is under 99%.		2011-08-24 23:20:00

Author:
NcLc2010
Posts: 72

Are there any more? Hmm.... Well Happy Gadding everyone! Feel free to add me because I love meeting new peeps and I love LBP2!2011-08-24 23:21:00

Author:
NcLc2010
Posts: 72

Wow... What you just said made me un-understand logic for a second... o.O And I'm pretty good at it... Lol... Maybe stick to something a little more simple for noobies? (Noobies. Not noobs. I didn't mean it like noobs.)2011-08-25 00:13:00

Author:
Speedynutty68
Posts: 1614

I think you're a little better at logic than you realize. Look back at what you wrote. You broke down your thoughts into parts. You described what the problem is, listed what you have tried, posted some ideas of what you think will help, and then described what happens with your usual methods. If that isn't logic, I don't know what is.

I don't think many of us can just jump in and create something very complex without some planning. It's just a matter of identifying clearly what you want to do, what steps you need to take, and then breaking each step down into tasks. Have you ever built a model? It's very similar. You put together the small parts that then fit together to form the big parts, and pretty soon all those tiny bits have come together into something else altogether. It's the same with logic.

You just need to writ down a plan of attack first, and take loads of notes. anything you think of, write it down. Start out by writing a paragraph in plain english describing what you want to make, how it should look, what it should do, and how it should do it. You'll never get the how part exactly right the first time, but it givs you a reference to start seeing the parts that will come together to make it happen.

You may say:
I want to make a large blue metalic robot with glowing eyes that rolls around on two wheel shooting missiles from its arms.

Now you know you will need some wheels, a metallic body, some lights for eyes, an arm that can act as a lever and move up and down, missiles, and a launcher of some sort.

Break it down further: The wheels should be rubber and attached to a metal platform that holds the logic to make it move. Should the wheels all move together or independently? Should they be big wheels or small wheels?

These seem like simple decisions, but if you are anything like me, these are the things you get overwhelmed by. I think I am pretty good with logic, but I also write out a lot of it before starting. It gets easier as you go, and you have to write less and less, but at first that initial planning is the key to keeping you on track.

Don't forget LBP has some excellent tutorials on the various components if you need a refresher on some of them. Aks questions here, and read how other people are solving their problems. I'm sure you'll get it.

Oh, I almost forgot...another thing that helps immensely is to start projects in a large crater. Then use each of the smaller craters for making parts and smaller elements. You could use one to experiment and test different ways to make a life bar without having to actually implement it into your level, for example. Maybe you just started playing with movers and you want to try something; make a new level and go at it.		2011-08-25 01:33:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

Get ready for Mathematics! I'll explain what the basic logic gates REALLY do

That's only half the story (and the more difficult half at that)...

There are two types of signals, analogue and digital. Ignoring negative values for now for simplicity, a digital signal can be one of two possible values, off and on (or 0 and 1 if you prefer). An analogue signal can be any conceivable value between 0.0 and 1.0 (or 0% and 100%).

Now, LBP logic is a weird hybrid of digital and analogue signals, with both signals simultaneously flowing through the same wires and gates.

You've described the functions of gates on analogue signals, but it's digital signals that are used most of the time, and they're easier for beginners to understand. They also have the advantage of being visually represented by the wires and gates lighting up when active (analogue signals are not shown visually by LBP at all, which is why people have built logic probes and stuff).

Like Speedynutty68 found, analogue logic is just harder to visualise and figure out. 'AND gate turns on when input 1 AND input 2 are on' is more logical (ahem) than 'AND gate activates whichever input has the lowest percentage'.

My advice would be to not touch on analogue logic until you're really comfortable with digital.		2011-08-25 08:02:00

Author:
Dr C
Posts: 122

http://super-trainer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/yes-you-can.gif

And if you want, I could help you!		2011-08-25 08:37:00

Author:
comishguy67
Posts: 849

The XOR gate: The xor gate isnt very mathematical, it take 2-100 inputes and takes the highest input ONLY if there is only 1 input over 1%. So if you have an xor gate with 85 and 100 it takes 0, but if you have 0 and 85 it takes 85, so its ''XOR'' because X is one numeral so it means it can only take X or Y, not X and Y.


Sorry to be a little nit-picky here but the 'x' in XOR is an abbreviation for 'eXclusive'. An XOR gate represents the inequality function in logic networks. In normal 2 input gates (most hardware logic gates) the output of an XOR gate will only by ON if one of the inputs are ON and the other is off, i.e. the inputs are unequal. With a higher number of inputs on the gate the same rule applies. You need an inequality between the number of inputs that are ON or OFF for the output to be ON.

A good way to remember this is "one or the other but not both".

Anyway, I think it would be reassuring for you to understand that everyone has to concentrate a lot when making logic networks. It is something that requires a large amount of slow and careful thinking, mentally running through the theoretical process taking place in the network and putting critical thought into exactly what needs to be added in-order to perform the function you intend it to. Don't ever think that some people can just sneeze out a highly complicated piece of equipment. The mental investment and required attention of a network scales with the complexity of the piece, and this rule is objective to all creators no matter how 'logic savvy' they appear to be relativistically.

the most important tool in your arsenal towards developing your logic skills is self belief and a thorough understanding that your perception of logic is going to effect your ability to understand and 'master' the nature of logic. If you think (all be it through experience) that logic is extremely complicated and 'beyond your abilities', then it will be, because your perception of it colours your reality and your mind makes it real.

So step back, clear your mind, shed this developed opinion, and begin at the beginning. I'm not saying this is going to magically make you understand it all of a sudden. What I am doing is pointing out the mental blocks that are hindering your ability to learn that can be removed simply by a change in perspective.

Explore each logic component to learn about what they are for without trying to add them into any kind of network. You need to commit a basic understanding of each individual component to memory. This is the most important thing about logic. Understanding each component in a completely isolated manner, disregarding the 'context' (or function) of the logic network it may theoretically be a part of at some point.

Until you understand the purpose of the components you should not be trying to apply a context to them because this is where you can get lost.

Ok so.

In computing (i.e. in this case little big planet logic network building) we work in 'bits'. Bits are easy to work with because they can only ever exist in 2 discrete states. HIGH or LOW. a 'bit' can either be there or not there. The common terms for there are: 1, HIGH or ON. The Common terms for not there are: 0 [zero], LOW or OFF.

You always begin with a source. The source is where the 'bit' originates from. The best example of a source i can use for this explanation is the toggle. When a toggle is on its output (or 'state&apos is HIGH when a toggle is off its output is LOW. Simple. so from now on when i mention an active source (not to be confused with a 'high state', which can come from the output of any logic gate with the correct input conditions) imagine that its coming from a toggle set to ON.

Gates on the other hand are used to "refine the determination of system status or to set or clear specific bits." What this means is they read a number of states from earlier on in the signal chain, determine a state based on the RULE of that component, propagate a state based on those factors and send that state down the signal chain to the next process, or to the end result.

Remembering that a state can only ever be high or low, which can also be written as 1 or 0, we can break down how the gates work (or in other words learn the RULES for each gate) using what is known as 'truth tables'.

Two of the most commonly used gates are the AND gate and the OR gate

An AND gate, as the name implies, needs inputs 1 AND 2 to be HIGH in-order for its output to be HIGH. With a higher number of inputs, the same rule applies. In other words the AND gate could also be called the ALL gate, we just use the name AND because of basic boolean naming conventions, i.e. input 1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4 e.t.c.

The truth table for a 2 input AND gate is as follows:
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/3826/andtruth.jpg

The OR gate, as the name implies, needs inputs 1 OR 2 to be HIGH in-order for the output to be HIGH. Again the same rule applies for a higher number of inputs. If any of them are HIGH the output is HIGH. You could also call the OR gate the ANY gate.

The truth table for a 2 input OR gate is as follows:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7945/ortruth.jpg

There are two operations that have the same logic as above, but with an inverted output. These are known as NAND and NOR, also known as NOT AND and NOT OR respectively. The rules of these gate are as though there is a NOT gate 'built in' to the logic gate directly after the input registry, flip turning the output state from what it would have been if it weren't inverted. So In logic building, if you find yourself adding a NOT gate directly after an AND or an OR gate, don't. Instead, go into the gates options and set it to inverted. This will turn the AND/OR gate into a NAND/NOR gate.

The NAND Gate says if and only if all inputs are HIGH, the output will be LOW. Otherwise, the output will be HIGH.
As follows:
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/8615/nandtruth.jpg

The NOR gate says if any input is HIGH, the output will be LOW. Otherwise the output will be HIGH.
As follows:
http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/3351/nortruth.jpg
(notice the little bubble on the gate diagram's output, the image on the gates in LBP change in the same way to show they have switched to their 'Inverted' state, acting as NAND/NOR instead.)

I have already explained the XOR gate, that it represents the 'inequality function'. That is, it needs an 'unequal' number of inputs in a specific state for its output to be HIGH, otherwise its output will be LOW.
as follows:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8848/xortruth.jpg

One last logic operation needs to be explained before we move onto some practical examples, and that is the NOT gate. The NOT gate only has 1 input and it only has one basic discrete function. It flips LOW to HIGH or HIGH to LOW, inverting the 'state' of the signal. Remember that this component effectively changes an AND to a NAND, an OR to a NOR and an XOR to a NXOR if connected to their outputs.
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3382/nottruth.jpg

Ok. Now we hit your plateau. "so I know all of this, but how do I put it all together?! It's just a collection of discrete rules". EXACTLY! In other words. Here we have our scripting language and can move smoothly into the all important context.

Every 'function' of anything you make can be broken down into a collection of discrete states. "I press a button/grab a switch/enter a sensors range) and it executes a function". That function either triggers an end result or goes into a larger system to be compared with or used amongst other 'states', by being passed through logic gates to trigger other types of end results.

These 'end results' in and of themselves can be in turn used as one or more of the conditions necessary to trigger other elements of the logic network. This right here is one of the most powerful principles you could take time to fully come to terms with.

How to build complex logic is to break down the concept into a collection of smaller discrete functions (or steps, ingredients, as it were.) based on initial inputs (these inputs can either be from a source, or from the output of a different 'ingredient&apos, then treat that entire 'function/step' as though it were a logic gate its self. Because ultimately that entire function will only ever output a HIGH or LOW state depending on wether all of the right conditions within system for that specific 'step' are met.

You can then use that output as one of the conditions for an entirely different aspect of the overall design and hence the definition of 'network' gains fruition.

EDIT: As for these 'practical examples'. I'll have to get round to writing them up lol. I've gotten pretty burnt out writing this whole thing out. I am though going to be pulling some of my logic apart from the recently published level and taking lots of pictures to explain the interaction between the different relatively simple components within a larger network, while explaining the thought processes behind the design decision which should hopefully help you begin to think in the right kind of direction towards designing your own stuff.

Here's a pic of what you can end up with by starting with a simple idea, making a few of them and linking them together.
http://ie.lbp.me/img/ft/34ec9d78d5c552323206de0ad6a7c0d3ce2e9791.jpg

Good luck!		2011-08-25 13:46:00

Author:
Epicurean Dreamer
Posts: 224

i've had LBP2 since it's release and i'm only just starting to get results. i've actually made a reasonably good breakout game. it doesn't matter if it takes you a year to learn simple logic, don't panic, just keep on trying, it WILL come eventually. the word 'can't' in your thread heading is the thing that's holding you back.

watch these:

Create Mode. Part 1: New Materials, Global Controls And Movers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdef41xzJZM)
Create Mode. Part 2: Rotators And New Sensors (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrXqprVD-8c)
Create Mode. Part 3: Basic And Advanced Logic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FO8DY37SCk)
Create Mode. Part 4: World & Object Tweakers & Powerups (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUW7aO9upA8)
Create Mode. Part 5: Sackbots, Controlinators and Music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YZQStZzG0g)
Create Mode. Part 6: Miscellaneous (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi26CojES3E)

if you watch these, it'll scare you, but keep on watching. i've watched them dozens of times and i'm only just starting to understand a little of what is going on:

LBP2-Torials 01: Sequencers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOtdqYL05DQ&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 02: Signal Addition And Subtraction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TCbjIm5kSo&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 03: Probability With Randomizers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVYY0z4HSq8&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 04: Sackbots, Followers And Checkpoints (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4zq0QOXzbw&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 05: Health Bars And Addition Applications (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXJzQrsGxpc&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 06: Menus With Pulses And Time-Independent Movie Cameras (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZWWb6N0Sco&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 07: Player Counters And Wireless Signals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoksqBRw4z8&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 08: Infinite Scrolling And Wireless Signals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEplXDGqtAM&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 09: Level Linking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v17JnhpDMuY&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 10: Level Linking And Data Transfer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLF_GsQmPdU&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 11: Ordered Inputs And Lockboxes (Part 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCryeXkKpDQ&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 11: Ordered Inputs And Lockboxes (Part 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr63uFrRNS8&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 12: Working With Extra Layers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij--bJxovSk&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 13: Sackbot Acting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBYx49PaykM&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 14: Sackbot Automation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFVazXuQ1bc&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 15: Sackbot AI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTsD29o-I&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 16: Movie Cameras and Cutscenes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4UaPCFkfTM&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 17: Secret Counters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ld3DNKNrV8&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 18: Sackbot Acrobatics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cwRwgjgMO8&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 19: Theck and Thack Sublayers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7cNqFRgCDw&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 20: Feedback Loops (part 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4GaCQ1eRVE&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 20: Feedback Loops (part 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0sbxogAcDo&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 21: Speed Sensors (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5ua83Lvj-E&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 22: Slow Motion Effects (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcY9n3_nlJc&hd=1)
LBP2-Torials 23: Using the Merge Glitch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7Uc9Cs9QEs&hd=1)		2011-08-25 14:08:00

Author:
GribbleGrunger
Posts: 3910

...Even when I do know what to do, the logic just gets all jumbled in my head. I look at a microchip with lots of logic in it, and it's like reading a foreign language. It doesn't make sense at all.

For the very small amount of logic that I have tried to make, I usually have to grab the objects with popit, and move them around and act out what's going to happen. While doing that, I have to talk it out to myself out loud.

"Ok, so if this box enters the proximity of this tag, this tag will emit triggering this sensor, which will turn on this switch..."

and after so long, it starts to get confusing to me and I can't do it anymore.

You are not alone. I recently published my music player, and the majority of time was spent on talking through the logic (yes, out loud), testing, and going back. The key here is to try to create things in increasing complexity.

Take a facet of LBP2 logic, say, sackbot animation and AI. Make something simple. Test, re-test, and analyze. As soon as you think you understand it, add in a layer of complexity, say a certain behavior around a specific tag. Repeat until you're satisfied you can build whatever it is you want to build. Then move on to the next type of logic.

I started my music player with a simple selector, made sure the inputs all lined up, etc. Then I hooked it up to a controllinator. Then I added alternative inputs. Then I added functionality to each of the buttons, one by one. Then I added the music and tweaked the logic. Finally, I added the visuals of the title scrolling across the screen. What resulted was a moderately complex bit of logic that required a lot of figuring out on my own. But, in the end, it works and functions exactly the way I want to. And the best thing is, I taught myself how to do it.

There's a point in which you'll just end up getting it. It's maddeningly frustrating until you reach that point. The key is not to give up.

Hope that helps!		2011-08-25 14:15:00

Author:
schm0
Posts: 1239

That was a great post by Epicurean Dreamer! That really should be placed in its own sticky for everyone to see.



EDIT: As for these 'practical examples'. I'll have to get round to writing them up lol. I've gotten pretty burnt out writing this whole thing out. I am though going to be pulling some of my logic apart from the recently published level and taking lots of pictures to explain the interaction between the different relatively simple components within a larger network, while explaining the thought processes behind the design decision which should hopefully help you begin to think in the right kind of direction towards designing your own stuff.


Here's the funny thing about this part. Epicurean Dreamer is obviously a bright guy and knows a great deal about LBP2. It could be said that he is one of the more knowledgeable on this board. Here's the funny part.

While he is doing this dismantling he will come across at least one thing and think "What the heck was I doing here? I don't need all this.". He will also likely find at least one thing he could have done better, and probably would have been more efficiently done in a different way entirely. We all do it, so don't think anyone makes the perfect large scale logical system on the first try. It doesn't happen.

So, even if you feel like you've done something goofy and it makes no sense, don't be shy about asking questions. In my level I just made, when I was optimizing it I realized that half the components on one of the chip weren't needed at all. We all do silly things.

There's also no right way to do things. Once you get the output you want there's only better ways. Even the term "better" is up for debate because it can depend heavily on your design style. Some people will tell you that having minimal components and being completely optimized for thermo is best even if things are a bit confusing, while others will tell you that having a little extra thermo is ok if it makes things easier to see and understand. Neither is right or wrong, but both often have very strong feelings about the subject.		2011-08-25 17:27:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

There's also no right way to do things. Once you get the output you want there's only better ways. Even the term "better" is up for debate because it can depend heavily on your design style. Some people will tell you that having minimal components and being completely optimized for thermo is best even if things are a bit confusing, while others will tell you that having a little extra thermo is ok if it makes things easier to see and understand. Neither is right or wrong, but both often have very strong feelings about the subject.

And sometimes you get everything working and then crash land on the planet of NOR where the aliens steal all your NAND gates forcing you to rebuild your technology using BJT inverters! Sorry, this was something a college professor once said in a lecture during one of those rare moments where I was still conscious.

If you are still in school and have a chance to take a programming course it will really help you understand logic. The difficulty in LBP isn't the logic, it's the wacky black-box components like movers where you pretty much have to figure stuff out on your own by trial error.		2011-08-25 18:55:00

Author:
fullofwin
Posts: 1214

While he is doing this dismantling he will come across at least one thing and think "What the heck was I doing here? I don't need all this.". He will also likely find at least one thing he could have done better, and probably would have been more efficiently done in a different way entirely. We all do it, so don't think anyone makes the perfect large scale logical system on the first try. It doesn't happen.

So, even if you feel like you've done something goofy and it makes no sense, don't be shy about asking questions. In my level I just made, when I was optimizing it I realized that half the components on one of the chip weren't needed at all. We all do silly things.

There's also no right way to do things. Once you get the output you want there's only better ways. Even the term "better" is up for debate because it can depend heavily on your design style. Some people will tell you that having minimal components and being completely optimized for thermo is best even if things are a bit confusing, while others will tell you that having a little extra thermo is ok if it makes things easier to see and understand. Neither is right or wrong, but both often have very strong feelings about the subject.

that's a brilliant point i totally forgot to mention! Logic is very liquid, in so much that any one thing can be done in any number of ways. Just look at the striking difference between these magnitude comparators:


http://tams-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/applets/hades/webdemos/20-arithmetic/45-compare/7485-comparator.gif
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Jt8jI5P6sEU/TJkI5DDYMLI/AAAAAAAAEKU/UEk4vqjbfWA/s1600/Magnitude+Comparator.bmp

It can be a very daunting thing to approach the concept of there being no fixed way to create a function. But within this lies the true seed of possibility as once you take time to really learn the language of logic most of the fun is in finding the most elegant way of doing something.

You're totally right in me looking back through old stuff and going "what the hell was I doing here?!" or sometimes spending a few hours just trying to figure out exactly how the system works in the first place!

crafting with logic is a very involved process and you only truly know the innards of a piece when you're stuck deep right in the middle of it dancing the 2-step tango with the digital beast she is, sparks flying, hair on end fizzing, mad cackles whipping up between clanks and beeps...

... oh the sweet serendipity <3		2011-08-25 19:30:00

Author:
Epicurean Dreamer
Posts: 224

Man my heart goes out to you; I was at a loss with logic when I started. But then I found a set of tutorials on youtube, called lbp2-torials; I watched every one of them and now I can safely say I understand the games' logic pretty soundly. My advice, get on youtube, look for lbp2-torials by comphermc and soak it all up. Even if the tutorial in question doesn't seem relevant to your needs, watch it anyway and I guarantee you'll learn something new! Do it! NOW!

But, that's what worked for me. There are brighter people on here than me, so maybe listen to them instead!		2011-10-28 23:17:00

Author:
RainbowtipsFort
Posts: 144

This entire thread has reassured me that I'm largely not alone in my moments of stupidity. I have the horrible habit of going: "Ok, I want THIS to happen here..wire...wire..gategategate...wire...selector. ..gate..gate...sensor...tag...emitter...wait...wha t the crap did I just make?" Then I realize what I should have done all along, which is sit back and think slowly about the problem, isolating it into different pieces. Put them together individually, and then assemble the pieces to form...whatever I might be creating. Also, I tend to do a LOT of logic creating that will never come to life in an actual level; simply for practice. My moon is full (almost entirely) of half-finished ideas and workshops in progress.

As far as looking at large pieces of logic and "instantly" knowing what action they perform...well, I can't speak for others, but it starts out looking like a foreign language to me as well; even after I've built something and broken it down several times, I sometimes have to read back through the logic to understand it. Just keep with it, and like Thoreau said: "Simplify, simplify". There's almost ALWAYS a simpler way to do something. 		2011-10-29 09:49:00

Author:
EvilWuun
Posts: 152

i found the little problems or irritations a great place to sharpen your teeth. i've always hated the fact that when you pull a block of sponge along to climb onto something it often tips over if you don't land on it properly. it irritated me so much that i solved the issue today! put a microchip on the block of sponge to keep things tidy. then on your microchip put a grab switch. put a not gate, a material tweaker and a timer on there too. attach the grab switch to the not gate, the not gate to the timer (set to 1.5) and the timer to the material tweaker (change the settings to sticky) now run another wire from the grab switch to the reset on the timer. DONE. no more tipping sponge. little logic tests like this are how you should start

edit: the reason for the timer is that if you don't have it the sponge can end up on it's edge because the stickiness kicks in immediately when you let go 		2011-10-30 09:32:00

Author:
GribbleGrunger
Posts: 3910

I think you have to.... WOW! You've got many hearts!2011-10-31 20:02:00

Author:
Yassinius
Posts: 68


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