Archive: 23 posts

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K, so i bought these cables online that would in theory allow me to do HQ recordings. Bascially, you plug one end into a laptops headphone jack, and the other into a converter a bought that is a usb and works as a mic once you plug the cables into it. So basically, the sound goes straight from the laptop to the ps3. But recordings sound terrible! they fade in and out, theyre scatchy, and just sound rough. this has to be the ps3 doing this right? why is this? thanks

2011-08-02 22:51:00 Author: mrhollywood12345 Posts: 89

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it's actually not your ps3 or your laptop, it's Littlebigplanet itself. I read posts about this before, I think people have said, that Mm reduce the audio capabilities in game to deter copyright infringement? :/ I'm prob not the best person to ask xD I'm sure some very clever person will come along and give an awesome answer

2011-08-02 23:25:00 Author: Hallm3 Posts: 252

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I'm told that if you put a cloth over the mic, you can lower some of the static and scratchy sounds. I have never actually tried this, however, so you'd need to try this out yourself.

2011-08-02 23:38:00 Author: Chdonga Posts: 388

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Well let's be honest here, the PS3 recorders are not really professional recorders...

2011-08-02 23:46:00 Author: fireblitz95 Posts: 2018

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pretty much what fireblitz said, PS3 isn't really made for recording sound, only talking through a mic online :/

2011-08-03 00:08:00 Author: zzmorg82 Posts: 948

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High quality recordings in levels would drastically increase load times, as the game doesn't have the audio files already stored in its directories and has to download recorded voices bit by bit. The HQ recordings of the story characters' voices are saved with the game and can be loaded locally. And they're only used in cutscene levels - the voices revert to the 10-second gibberish loops when playing a level to save CPU. So the recordings are made at a lower quality not only to deter copyright infringement, as Hallm said, but also to help keep your level's file size at a minimum. I wish we could have full quality voice recordings but I don't think it's gonna happen

2011-08-03 18:18:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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...they fade in and out... The fading is because LBP tries to automatically "level" the volume of the sound. Whenever it gets quieter, the recording volume goes up and vise-versa. I agree it's really freakin' annoying.

2011-08-03 21:27:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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The PS3 it's self is capable of high quality audio playback in both local and streaming situations ( link (http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html#PS3_Audio) ). So that rules out the PS3 as a system or the quality of the PSN network's audio stream capabilities. This leaves the possibility of the Little big planet servers performing a pretty heavy compression process in the encoding of audio data due to the pretty large file size of high quality audio files. read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_compression_(data)#Lossy_audio_compression) for information about lossy encoding algorithms, specifically: "Due to the nature of lossy algorithms, audio quality suffers when a file is decompressed and recompressed (digital generation loss). This makes lossy compression unsuitable for storing the intermediate results in professional audio engineering applications, such as sound editing and multitrack recording." I can't seem to find any information about the specific bit depth and sample rate that the LBP servers actually compress their audio data into, nor the subsequent format of the end result. But it 'sounds' like a very low resolution encoding process, wherein the original audio data is downs-caled in bit depth and sample rate to a degree degradation is very audible. Something fairly below the usually standard 24 bit, 44,100 sample rate audio encoding of WAV formats, it sounds anything as low as 16 bit with a sample rate below 44,100, which is the boundary below which the granularity of digital audio becomes audible in human hearing. To cut a long story short, there's nothing that can be done about it because larger audio files would kill the LBP servers.

2011-08-04 03:08:00 Author: Epicurean Dreamer Posts: 224

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Actually 16bit 44.1 khz is CD quality sound, that wouldn't be so bad. I'm guessing the sounds might be recorded at 8bit 22 khz, at least that is the quality heard. I don't think the high quality sounds taking too much space is a proper excuse to not have high quality sound (even if that might actually be MM's primary reason). We should be allowed to have 10 seconds of high quality audio instead of a minutes worth of bad quality audio, if we wanted.

2011-08-04 07:27:00 Author: hesido Posts: 166

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I was put off LBP's audio capabilities the instant I heard Stephen Fry's voice sample (to Mm's credit, not dressed up in any way) in the LBP1 tutorial video. He said something as narrator, and it was parroted back via a Magic Mouth that "recorded" it. And it sounded like the same poo quality we get with microphones of all types at home. Hehe. I agree it's more to do with Sony putting limitations on the tech to prevent copyright infringement than Mm actually wanting to crush quality for the sake of data streaming. Like importing photos, importing audio is verbotten, and the tools to capture video or audio are deliberately handicapped. Shame.

2011-08-04 09:41:00 Author: Unknown User

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You cannot play back two mouths at the same time, can you? Wouldn't it be crazy if one would go to the length of recording two low quality samples, slightly out of phase of one another and combine them by playing both simultaneously? I am not even sure that would result in a higher quality sound, but hey, layman's science!

2011-08-04 12:37:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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There's no grand conspiracy here. Audio files take up considerable file space, so they're compressed and modified into a small, easily downloadable file size to reduce loading times for a level. This is to prevent an otherwise small level file from becoming a 60 MB monstrosity, which on a slow internet connection could take ages to download. Not to mention the space it would take up on the servers. Holguin86 nailed it, although I really don't think copyright infringement is an issue. An illegal recording is still illegal whether it's low-quality or not. You should design your levels and dialogue with this limitation in mind. It's not going to change any time soon.

2011-08-04 12:48:00 Author: schm0 Posts: 1239

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The fading is because LBP tries to automatically "level" the volume of the sound. Whenever it gets quieter, the recording volume goes up and vise-versa. I agree it's really freakin' annoying. I don't have the necessary hardware to record directly via a line in, but if you're sure it's DRC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression), then there's potentially a way to bypass it by tricking the system into thinking the volume is constant, but you'll need a reasonably decent sample editor. First of all, you want to normalize the sample you want to record in LBP2, so the peak amplitude is exactly -6 dB (50%). Some sample editors might not let you do this in one go, so normalize to 0 db (100%) then halve the amplitude. Then create a new sample of the same length as the one you want to record, which is a pure sine wave with maximum amplitude of -6 db (50%), at a frequency which is beyond the range of human hearing (or, more specifically, beyond the sample range of LBP's audio compression codec). Something between 22kHz and 44kHz should do the trick, but you may need to experiment to find a value which works. Then superimpose the two samples, so you end up with a composite sample which should now peak at 0 dB (100%). Finally, double the amplitude of the composite sample - this will clip the sample in places, but only the inaudible sine wave should be affected. I can't test this, but hopefully, the added sine wave will cause the sampler to believe the amplitude is constant, but be stripped out by the audio compression codec. Obviously there'll be some quality loss due to the codec, but it's marginal compared to the mess that DRC will make of it.

2011-08-04 13:09:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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im a little behind on this thread. anyways well its a shame i didnt know that, hopefully if theres ever a 3 this will be fixed. maybe you couldnt use copyrighted stuff, but things from other video games and such. it would help a lot for making better levels. Antikris unfortunately no you culdnt do that, nor would putting do faded out tracks make one good track. Aya042, i actually did try a bit of normalizing, but not at those measures, ill try that out thanks

2011-08-04 16:24:00 Author: mrhollywood12345 Posts: 89

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... if you're sure it's DRC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression)... Well I'm no expert but the theory was thrown around a bit during the beta (by you iirc) and it would explain the behavior I've seen when experimenting with recording. The game will record all of the low level noise in the room--distant clicks, bumps, a fan, etc.--but ~a second after I start talking, all of the background noise goes away until ~a second after I stop talking. You can kinda' minimize it by humming a bit before the recording starts (timing is tricky 'cuz you need to stop humming before it starts recording but not so early that it has time to adjust to the quiet before you start talking), talking fast enough that there are no pauses long enough for it to trigger, and ending the recording immediately after you finish talking. It's not a very user friendly solution but it's better than nothing. First of all, you want to normalize the sample you want to record in LBP2...Obviously there'll be some quality loss due to the codec, but it's marginal compared to the mess that DRC will make of it. That's an interesting theory. I don't have the equipment either, but I would be interested in hearing if anybody has any success with this technique. I have an old minijack to usb adapter but it's wired for a headset (mic+earpiece) rather than a normal mic--I might be able to crack it open and change the wires so that it accepts a mono input from my laptop's headphone jack, but I haven't tried yet (I tried plugging it in without modifying but it didn't work). Maybe I'll experiment with that soon--probably not for at least a couple of days though. I hope your solution works 'cuz I was planning on doing voice acting (if I do it at all) via recordings on my computer that I would then input into lbp (so I can edit the audio first), so a computer based solution would be fine by me.

2011-08-04 21:22:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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Aha! I have a audio in to USB convertor that I got for 50 cents. And, yes the quality is really bad. I might need to try aya's method...

2011-08-04 21:32:00 Author: StaticLinuxpro Posts: 482

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Haven't tried it myself but one of my friends suggested if you're recording music or whatever to turn up the volume really loud so it doesn't do that patchy thing.

2011-08-05 01:23:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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....This is to prevent an otherwise small level file from becoming a 60 MB monstrosity, which on a slow internet connection could take ages to download. Not to mention the space it would take up on the servers. I'd like to remind you that 5mins of CD quality Stereo recordings can be had at about 4MB. We don't need stereo recordings. You can allocate 1MB maximum for recordings, and even that would give as 100seconds of high quality 98kbps sound. A 98kbps *stereo* mp3 sounds orders of magnitude better than what we have in LBP. Make that mono, and the quality would be higher. Make that limit 512KB's. You can still cram a lot in 50 seconds. ...An illegal recording is still illegal whether it's low-quality or not... It may be illegal on paper, but I don't see any recording studio that would go after full recordings on LBP. We should agree the low quality saves a lot of headaches. However, if re-production is not an issue that lead to this ultra low quality sound captures, than there's absolutely no reason to not give high quality sounds a cap, that would enable people to use high quality captured sounds. Therefore, I believe level sizes were not the main focus at all, although it does allow smaller file sizes. The issue is basically saving MM from constantly moderating recorded commercial music levels. You should design your levels and dialogue with this limitation in mind. It's not going to change any time soon. This I agree.

2011-08-05 09:12:00 Author: hesido Posts: 166

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I'd like to remind you that 5mins of CD quality Stereo recordings can be had at about 4MB. We don't need stereo recordings. You can allocate 1MB maximum for recordings, and even that would give as 100seconds of high quality 98kbps sound. A 98kbps *stereo* mp3 sounds orders of magnitude better than what we have in LBP. Make that mono, and the quality would be higher. Make that limit 512KB's. You can still cram a lot in 50 seconds. For the LBP engine to record the audio files and include them in the level, it must do so on the fly. This means it most likely uses one of several low-compression formats (i.e. .WAV, etc.) that takes the audio and dumps it into a playable file in a quick and efficient manner. Encoding the audio in a more compressed format (i.e. .MP3) would take processing time and power, no matter what the length or quality. This is why the audio is low quality: the game needs to be able to take in a recorded sound and store it quickly, efficiently and in as small a filesize as possible. Also, you speak of filesize caps as if we could view and edit the files contained within the levels themselves. The only thing we have to go by is the thermo, which is just a visual representation of a vaguely-described and complex internal game mechanic. What you describe is entirely possible, but brings with it a whole slew of design choices that could make the recording process more time consuming. It may be illegal on paper, but I don't see any recording studio that would go after full recordings on LBP. We should agree the low quality saves a lot of headaches. However, if re-production is not an issue that lead to this ultra low quality sound captures, than there's absolutely no reason to not give high quality sounds a cap, that would enable people to use high quality captured sounds. Therefore, I believe level sizes were not the main focus at all, although it does allow smaller file sizes. The issue is basically saving MM from constantly moderating recorded commercial music levels.Again, the issue here is the manner of compression and design choices. Do you use a file format that is quick and dirty? Or do you opt for the method that takes 15-30 seconds to encode a minute of audio? I think all of us would like high quality audio in our levels. But I can also see why MM chose to go the quick and dirty route: it allows the player to record audio effeciently and immediately hear the results in-game. It also allows MM to skirt around the issue of copyrighted material altogether. Most importantly, it saves us all from being inundated with Justin Beiber/Lady Gaga recording levels.

2011-08-05 13:30:00 Author: schm0 Posts: 1239

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Most importantly, it saves us all from being inundated with Justin Beiber/Lady Gaga recording levels. Lol, yeah. The recordings could have a separate thermo, akin to music sequencers. The SPU's are surprisingly good at encoding stuff, I'm not sure but those games with youtube functionality, do they encode stuff after the capture, or were they real-time? (not sure). Anyway, if realtime is not possible, at worst, an awkward 15-30 seconds pause during encoding after the capture wouldn't ruin my day. I agree about the practicality of the current system and adding these stuff wouldn't exactly be a walk in the park. But it is not bad to dream, right? :=)

2011-08-05 13:44:00 Author: hesido Posts: 166

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For the LBP engine to record the audio files and include them in the level, it must do so on the fly. This means it most likely uses one of several low-compression formats (i.e. .WAV, etc.) that takes the audio and dumps it into a playable file in a quick and efficient manner. Encoding the audio in a more compressed format (i.e. .MP3) would take processing time and power, no matter what the length or quality. I think you underestimate the processing power of the PS3. I can't think of a single audio compression codec which is so CPU-intensive that the PS3 couldn't encode it in real time. I mean, if you've ever used the PS3's video chat feature, you'll notice it's capable of compressing full motion video in real time, and that's several orders of magnitude more complex than any audio compression codec. I agree that copyright is a non-issue here - a low quality recording of copyright material is just as infringing as a high quality one. The main limiting factor will almost certainly be network bandwidth, bearing in mind that any recording has to be downloaded as part of a level, and, perhaps more importantly, broadcast to everyone else you're with, should you be using online create. I'd guess they use exactly the same sampler/codec which is used for the real-time voice chat functionality in LBP.

2011-08-05 15:58:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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To be honest, isn't copyright infringement only applicable if the redistribution of copyrighted material involves monetary gain? Which means recording a song and putting it in a level, purely for people to listen to while playing the level, technically isn't doing anything illegal. Which doesn't make sense in respect to 'down scaling' the quality of all uploaded audio as an attempt to push any potential 'copyright infringing material' beyond the point of recognition. It's a little on the side of quazi-logic no? I believe it has a lot more to do with hardware limitations at MM studios. I mean some of the levels out there already are complete rips of well known trade marked games, Super smash bro's, Zelda, Mario, Sonic, Metroid, Final Fantasy... Not to mention the Family guy level using actual pictures of the characters animated on holo AND RECORDED SAMPLES of the actual voices from the t.v. program, not forgetting the HUGE McDonalds logo half way through the level. If copyright infringement had anything to do with it, all of this stuff would already have been removed promptly with a number of scary letters hitting the front doors of MM. There's no infringement going on here, there's no monetary gain to be had from a free online game.

2011-08-05 16:45:00 Author: Epicurean Dreamer Posts: 224

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Yes, but there's a couple points that need to be made. First, there is a difference between someone recreating a vintage video game and copying a music recording. One is literally transcribing the work from one media to the next, while the other takes liberties in that it needs to be created from scratch and it is not a direct copy. Second, a copyright infringement can be made on any of the IPs currently in LBP simply by filing papers in a court. The fact is, they've chosen not to bother. Also, from the Terms of Service (U.S.): It’s great that users on our Sites can upload or share content with each other, but we do not authorize you to upload or share on our Sites certain items and content. Do not create, transfer, share, send, submit, post or upload any User Generated Content that: 1. Is protected by copyright, trademark, patent or trade secret or subject to third-party proprietary rights, including rights of privacy and publicity - unless you are or have permission from the rightful owner;That about covers it. Now, will you be prosecuted for publishing copyrighted material on LBP? Most likely not. But by accepting the contract when you play online, you've agreed to abide by this verbiage. Realistically, these rules are simply in here to cover Sony's *** in the event of a lawsuit and to be able to take down the content if/when they see fit. Technically, any copyrighted material can land you in court, but the companies that own these IPs most likely have bigger fish to fry. Regardless, copyright infringment is only a secondary issue. The primary reasons why the audio in the game is low-quality is ease of use and filesize/compression. I mean, if you've ever used the PS3's video chat feature, you'll notice it's capable of compressing full motion video in real time, and that's several orders of magnitude more complex than any audio compression codec. Yes, I agree, but you are referring to a feature that is only available when the XMB is the only thing running. In create mode, with all the hundreds and thousands of components of the LBP engine running in tandem, the total processing power is (somewhat significantly) diminshed. An audio recording feature would do well to record first (into memory) and transcribe to disk second. And then there is the end-result to think of, as well: the audio should be loaded to memory to be played back during your level. And system memory is one of the PS3's main limitations ...And now I've delved into the meta-realm of engine design and system architecture, an area of expertise where I only have passing knowledge. What capabilities that PS3 has to process high quality audio are moot: the fact is, MM has chosen to place limits on the audio for reasons wholly unknown to us. In the end, we can only speculate, as I have done here.

2011-08-05 18:24:00 Author: schm0 Posts: 1239

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