Archive: 12 posts

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Hey guys, it's poorjack here with a new problem. I am working on a new project (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=59982-the-Legend-of-Artemis-Ballad-of-the-Time-Thief) And I am having a difficult time transfering all the data I need. I am TRYING to use score bubble based data transfer, but I have a lot of stats i need transferred, and the score bubbles only go in increments of so many... So I was wondering if anyone out there knows a way... Or could imagine a way that I could transfer huge amounts of data from one level to another... I have a few of the pieces of data listed in the Ideas and Projects topic in the link above, but that isn't even all I want to include. It isn't a problem with programming the features, It is with transferring the inventory and percentages between levels. Say I have 10 axes, $25, and 17 smoke bombs (or whatever) and I CAN hold 10 axes, $99, and 30 smoke bombs... That is 139 data point checks alone. And that is just the finite inventory. I also have 3 permanent upgrades, and 3 optional sidequest upgrades, 7 side missions, each with 3 stages that can be passed or failed... That is 139 checks for the inventory, 6 for upgrades, and 21 for side missions bringing our grand total to 166 checks to make each time a player exits and enters a level. How can I make that many checks with score bubble amounts? I mean, Mm told us we can make whole games... LET ME MAKE A WHOLE GAME!!!

2011-07-23 00:17:00 Author: poorjack Posts: 1806

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I'm not an expert on score bubble data transfer (that would be Rtm), but one tip that I've heard is that you can increment the score by smaller amounts than 10 points by using analog signals. I've never tried it, but it was something to the effect of sending a 10% signal to a 10 pt point giver and it'll give you 1 point. That'll get you an extra digit for 9 more possibilities than you would normally be able to read. Are any of the upgrades dependent on any of the others? If, for example, you need to have permanent upgrade one before you can get permanent upgrade 2, you'll only need a single digit to express them. If you need permanent upgrade 3 before you can get side quest upgrade 3, then a single digit for side quest upgrade 3 would let you know that all upgrades were present. If the upgrades are non-linear, it gets a bit trickier, but with 3 possible upgrades, you can encode them into 7 possibilities: 1=upgrade 1, 2=upgrade 2, 3=upgrade 3, 4=upgrade 1 and 2, 5=upgrade 1 and 3, 6=upgrade 2 and 3, 7=upgrade 1, 2, and 3. That's a single digit to represent 3 variables, which isn't too bad. You may consider limiting the number of axes available to 9 just so you can get it down to a single digit. You may want to try some rounding off. So 21 smoke bombs would get rounded off to 25, which could be represented by a 5 (multiply the smoke bomb digit in the score by 5 to get the actual number of bombs. Beyond that, you'll just need to decide what you can live without. Is it really necessary to record each individual stage of a sidequest's pass/failure? Each of your sidequests would require a digit, meaning 7 digits total just for pass/fail of sidequests. I can't remember how many digits are available in the score sensor, but I'm pretty sure you can't afford 7 digits for side quests.

2011-07-23 01:56:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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Just replied in your thread, Sehven's solution should work afaik, and would be a good model to use for anyone using data transfer.

2011-07-23 02:13:00 Author: SSTAGG1 Posts: 1136

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Well the idea is that I want the transference between 3 overworlds to be up to the player to activate, and them to be able to use the upgrades from each world in each other world. So if a player gets some axes in world one, they can take them to world two or three and use them, and if they get a new pair of boots in world three, to take them and use them anywhere. But the ammo inventory is what's really screwing me. The axes/arrows/etc. I mean, in a GOOD non lbp game, you would be able to take your arrows with you... But how do I keep track of all that ****... You know?

2011-07-23 03:29:00 Author: poorjack Posts: 1806

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I hate to not be of much help, but this is the reason I have not yet ventured into anything RPG yet. Level data transfer is extremely limited at the moment (let alone creating saved states). It might be better to look into emitting parts of your level when needed and go to extreme lengths to optimize what you already have. It is not a fun thing to do; I know, because I am there myself right now. EDIT: or... and this would be a hack, you could mix an event into the story line that robs the player of all/most of his inventory right before the level transition. Like, a ship wreck and stranding on a remote island, or the enemy taking the player captive. In the new level you would then have to find stuff a second time.

2011-07-23 08:44:00 Author: Antikris Posts: 1340

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I I CAN hold 10 axes, $99, and 30 smoke bombs... That is 139 data point checks alone. And that is just the finite inventory. I also have 3 permanent upgrades, and 3 optional sidequest upgrades, 7 side missions, each with 3 stages that can be passed or failed... That is 139 checks for the inventory, 6 for upgrades, and 21 for side missions bringing our grand total to 166 checks to make each time a player exits and enters a level. How can I make that many checks with score bubble amounts? I mean, Mm told us we can make whole games... LET ME MAKE A WHOLE GAME!!! There is actually no way to assess how much data you need here because you haven't given enough info. For example, are the 3 upgrades stacking, or are they independent (can you get upgrade 2 before you get upgrade 1). Same thing with the stages of the side quests, do I have to pass stage 1 before I can attempt stage 2? Do I have the ability to carry 10 axes, or are there 10 axes and I can carry one of them? In the later case it's the difference beteen 10 states or 1024, so it makes a big difference. the main thing you need to do is rework your game to reduce the number of independent variables. Only then will you be able to squeeze the amount of data you need out of a score based system.

2011-07-23 12:53:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I am going for a free roam free form game, so yes you can get all the upgrades out of order, and yes you can carry any number in between 10 axes but you must do the side quests individual parts in order. because each side quest evolves as a story within itself... I think I may have the system nailed down, but I am going to have to do some tinkering.

2011-07-23 18:34:00 Author: poorjack Posts: 1806

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I am having the same problem and was contemplating using a lock box type of thing. Basicly if you pick up a magic potion say then you will recieve a sticker of that potion and when you go to the next level you will be able in a title screen or something place the sticker on a switch lick a carry bag icon and you will be given that item through emitters or something meaning that whenever you go back and forth from level to level you can keep doing this. I havent tested it properly yet and the only problem would be that if you used the potion you would be able to unlock it in any level because you have the sticker which wouldn't work that great. The other problem would be that there could be a lot of stickers to mess around with. To solve problem 1 i was wondering about adding different stickers for the same item but for different levels so that when you finished level 2 with that item you would be awarded the level two sticker that can be used in level 3. Still an idea though and a WIP. Does anyone think it might work.

2011-07-23 18:53:00 Author: Lordwarblade Posts: 761

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I think I may have the system nailed down, but I am going to have to do some tinkering. Really? That's pretty impressive. I was tinkering with a score sensor based encoding system last night and I concluded that it would be possible to get up to 6 variables with a range from 0-9 and an additional variable with a range of 0-4 (the score can only go up to 4 million, right?) in the millions column, but it would be a pita to implement since the score sensor only goes up to 100k. Basically, you'd have to set logic so that if it detects 100% signal strength from the score sensor, it'll trigger 10 score givers to subtract 10,000 points each, increment a counter (to keep track of the number in the 100,000s column), recheck the signal strength and repeat until the score is less than 100,000. Then you'd have to have a similar process for each of the other columns, except that you'd at least be able to read the first digit without repeatedly subtracting. For example, with a score of 999,999, the score sensor reads 100% signal strength, so it subtracts 100,000 points and increments a counter, leaving the player with 899,999 points. This process repeats 9 times until the score is 99,999 at which point the score sensor reads less than 100% and moves on to the next step. The next step will be another score sensor that reads 100,000 points but is hooked to a positional sequencer with batteries placed every 10th of the way through it. It reads 90%+ full, so it outputs a 9 for its value, then triggers 9 score givers to remove 10k each, bringing the score down to 9,999. Another score sensor set to 10,000 repeats the same process just performed by the other one and so on until you read the single digit column and output its value. Since each check/subtract function is going to take at least two clock cycles, you're looking 30+ seconds to perform the decode at the beginning of the level (depending on how efficient you are with clock cycles in your logic) if you use all available digits. This only gives you 6 really usable digits and an extra with only 5 states. You would need 7 digits just for success/fail analysis of your sidequests, 2 for your upgrades, 2 each for your axes/smoke bombs and 2 for your money. Thats 15 digits; almost triple what you have available, so I'd love to know how you've got the system nailed. I'd like to add at this point that this is the first time I've seriously considered a score based data transfer system (aside from reading a bit that Rtm wrote in the beta) so it's possible that there's been some significant discoveries in this area that I'm unaware of that might make things significantly different from what I've predicted.

2011-07-23 21:08:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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well I got it "nailed" by reworking the core gameplay. In the legend of Zelda 1 for NES, the money was also used as arrows in a real time spending of assets type action where 1 rupee=1 arrow. So if you fired an arrow, it decreased your money bag by 1. I was thinking that maybe I could use a system like this, except instead of money, have a universal thrown weapon pick up so that you can use it as ammo for any long range thrown item, like daggers, bombs, hatchets, etc. And assign that value to the 1-10 score slot. then for the optional upgrades, have each of the 3 assigned to a 100x2x2x2 mathematical algorithm and have the non optional upgrades be the actual trigger to go to a new level. that way I can have 4 levels each of which can have an optional side quest or 2 and blah blah blah... It all works, but I wish there was a better way. Like a data transfer tool. *Hurumph...

2011-07-23 23:49:00 Author: poorjack Posts: 1806

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Well it sounds serviceable. I just hate it when I have to compromise on what I want to do because of the limitations that are imposed, but sometimes those limitations and compromises can lead to some really good ideas. Anyway, good luck

2011-07-24 08:32:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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To solve problem 1 i was wondering about adding different stickers for the same item but for different levels so that when you finished level 2 with that item you would be awarded the level two sticker that can be used in level 3. Still an idea though and a WIP. Does anyone think it might work. I did see a level that had something like this... A potion sticker with a 1, 2 or 3 on it. An enemy dropped it and you then stuck it to a HUD for different heal amounts. Nice idea but with a huge flaw. They were re-usable. Using a front screen would get around this, but another idea is turn them into regen speeds. To be honest, this is an idea I just had while typing so not really thought out, but you could pick them up in any order, because they are unique, they only work on one switch in the HUD, but the more you have the faster energy comes back.

2011-07-26 08:37:00 Author: Mr_Fusion Posts: 1799

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