Archive: 30 posts

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Many times I've seen people favor levels with better scenery then levels with gameplay. What is it up with that? I mean I'd much rather play a level with bad scenery but fun gameplay then a level with amazing scenery and bad gameplay. I find this often happens with levels that changes the gameplay using the controllinator. A lot of times the controls are poor yet people still love the levels because of how they look. I definitely appreciate effort in scenery but I put gameplay above scenery. There have been many times where I dislike a level because it had bad gameplay, yet get bashed for it because the level has good scenery. I think this is also because something about LBP1 and LBP2 softens people up. How you have to hold the players hands as they go along i.e plenty of signs. Do you guys get what is up with this? Tell me your thoughts on this. Gameplay > Scenery

2011-07-10 13:49:00 Author: DarrienEven Posts: 217

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I quite agree. What gets me are the creators who seem to think it's a good idea to use so many decorations that the framerate drops, or things start disappearing. Honestly, what possesses some people to be so dense? I like a pretty level as much as the next fellow, but don't be stupid enough to sacrifice the way the game runs just so things can look nice. Your level is a toy, not an ornament.

2011-07-10 14:01:00 Author: Ostler5000 Posts: 1017

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Yeah man, Scenery at the expense of lagg is just terrible. "Oh ya, it laggs BUT LOOK AT IT!!! IT'S AMAZING!!! MUST HEART, MUST POST REVIEW SAYING "MM PICK NOW", MUST LIKE, MUST HATE ALL HATERS, OMG SO AMAZING"... Okay well that is overblown. But still, people need to look past the surface of things.

2011-07-10 14:09:00 Author: DarrienEven Posts: 217

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It's matter of preference of creator opinion of thta is also matter of player, some people simply like that.

2011-07-10 15:32:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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My belief is that a level should ideally have a good blend of both. However as stated above its entierely up to the creator... If a level was designed as (for example) an art project showing off scenery would it require any gameplay at all? As long as the description stated that was the intent of the level I see no problems with that. The same goes for someone experimenting with a gameplay device. Overall it's just a matter of personal preference

2011-07-10 18:17:00 Author: ForgottenEnigma Posts: 1414

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TBH, the scenery in my levels has always been much better than the gameplay. I use LBP as a medium to convey my artistic visions, focusing more on the conjuring of mood and atmosphere than on providing players with an exciting and addictive gameplay experience. I try my best to make my gameplay fun and diverse, but it's certainly not my strong point

2011-07-10 18:33:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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I think it's less about making it look super pretty and more about making it look crisp. Take that one level where you use the right stick to move platforms around for example. It wasn't the most visually stunning level, but it got the job done and was well put together. Adding to that it had a cool game play concept which helped it get deserved recognition.

2011-07-10 18:49:00 Author: anthman852 Posts: 66

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Unfortunately I just plain suck at making fun and unique gameplay.. can't help but feel this thread is at least in part talking about me

2011-07-10 19:07:00 Author: Radishlord Posts: 706

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I just think it's because everyone can appreciate good asthetics, but apparently only 5% of the player base can manage to string 2 simple jumps together. It's really pathetic...I'm pretty sure my cat would be better at this game than most people and she doesn't have thumbs. What do you mean by bad gameplay exactly? To me BloodStone Part 1 has really bad gameplay...it's almost non-existent because it's just an intro level and I was just trying to make it pretty as a diversion and purely for my own amusement, Part 3 I thought had good gameplay and was fun to play. The reaction to these levels by the bulk of the community has been just the opposite and it saddens me. As a creator I enjoy working on the visuals the most, so that's what I focus on...and yes, I will sacrifice frame rate to make it look how I want, that's my perogative to play my game how I want. It doesn't help that when I do try to inject a little fun into the level I'm bombarded with, this sux, too hard, level is broken comments. I honestly don't know that I care enough to publish another level, As a player I have a lot of respect for creators that can balance good game play with good visuals, but basically the community is a lame bunch of unappreciative whiners. This includes the TC who is clearly trying to impose his preferences/opinions on what others should and should not create.

2011-07-10 19:13:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

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Levels with good gameplay alone will always have it tough. Good visuals are immediately visible, recognizable by anyone, and appreciated by everyone. On the other hand, good gameplay only becomes apparent after playing, is harder to quantify, and everyone has their own preferences (platform, puzzle, shooter). It's just like the games industry, too much focus on graphics.

2011-07-10 20:23:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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If someone got you a cake for your birthday, and it has no frosting, no icing, and it looks burned and ugly, you are not gonna want to eat that. Even if its the best cake in the world you will never know because it looks like its been mauled out of a hobo's trashcan somewhere and you refuse to eat it; Visuals work the same way. Visuals are the players first interpretation of the game, and personally i think every stage should at least make an effort to include great scenery. It brings more immersion to the gameplay. I dont think one is greater than the other, but i do think both are equally important as the absence of one will be immediately recognizable in a level and would make the overall experience less satisfying. Sure, some of the purist out there would say the only thing that matters in games is gameplay, and while i typically praise gameplay more than visuals, good gameplay is no excuse to go lazy on the artwork. If you have enough time to make that really awesome combat, or platforming etc, then you have time to make it look good. Gameplay=Scenery

2011-07-10 21:08:00 Author: Rpg Maker Posts: 877

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The thing about scenery is that, well If it's nice and has just amazing detail it's great in the beggining. But after a while it starts getting boring without a decent gameplay. If it's a platformer, shooter, etc, you wanna include both with a nice style of both. But you don't want to have too much of a lack visuals. Say your making a combat level with terrible visuals. Then that makes me hate a level if you put no effort into it. So after all this ranting... Gameplay=Scenery

2011-07-10 21:23:00 Author: fighterwindplus Posts: 403

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Scenery -> Grab your interest Gameplay -> Keep you interested

2011-07-10 21:31:00 Author: gdn001 Posts: 5891

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. gameplay is the idea , the scenery is it brought to life. what im saying is you need the gameplay to cater for the scenery, but you need the scenery to cater for the gameplay. scenery is you making the gameplay look nice. i for one hate hate hate hate HATE it when there is a great game with bad graphics.. it makes me... shiver almost. gah i cant find the right words. basicly, when an idea for a game starts, your actually thinking about the gameplay. " i know, a game where u...." etc when you come to making the game, the scenery is so ESSENTIAL. it is what players judge the game on, you dont look at a blank game box and think " oooh wonderful!" the common phrase is " looks good" and again " LOOKS good ". mann i still cant quite get my point out. it will come to me.

2011-07-10 21:33:00 Author: nerzdadestroyer Posts: 1527

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I think there has to be a balance between both aspects to make a good level, and of course the sound,concept and context (where it is appliable) can't be neglected too. A level could have the best aesthetics in all Craftworld, but the moment it shows a fault that irreparably ruins the flow of gameplay my excitement starts to fade. Massive graphics-induced lag preventing the player from properly bypassing some traps, for example. The same in a level that could rival the playability of MM's but with no decoration and objects to give it life. Weak gameplay breaks one's sense of immersion, and a lifeless, plain level doesn't give us a sense of immersion to begin with. And that doesn't concern only visuals. Sound effects (not music) are something most people don't remember to use. And others think "good aesthetics" means filling the level with all kinds of materials, objects and decorations without any common context, to the point of the player not being able to locate his sackboy running in the screen. Simple but effective and coherent designs beat unnecessarily overcomplicated ones in every way.

2011-07-11 00:19:00 Author: SnipySev Posts: 2452

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Well, most people who create, Make it pretty to go to the extra mile to make thier level better.

2011-07-11 03:23:00 Author: lark98-2 Posts: 116

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After reading some of your guy's statements, I guess I can agree that scenery and gameplay does need a balance. But there are a ton of levels that have WAY too much focus on the scenery at the expense of lagg, poor controls, etc. It seems the general public prefers things to look nice then to play nice which really makes me angry. They base the overall quality of a level/series based on first impressions. But yeah Scenery = gameplay.

2011-07-11 03:25:00 Author: DarrienEven Posts: 217

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Personally, I give almost 0 importance to scenery. If I'm just walking past some vista, meh. I've seen it done hundreds of times before. I'd much rather experience some new gameplay regardless of visuals, but that's just me.......... I find advanced logic just as visually impressive as anything else .

2011-07-11 04:08:00 Author: SSTAGG1 Posts: 1136

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Pretty scenery won't win me over. Gameplay is king (http://mrbossdesign.blogspot.com/2008/10/platformer-primer.html). I just can't get over poor gameplay design. Whenever I come across things such as poor controls/lag it takes me out of the level. We can finally build our own levels, and yet we make the same mistakes are the developers (unskippable cutscenes/etc) ?! RAGE!! Get the basics right first people. Good gameplay = replayability = more love. All of the best (or at least my favourites) creators have good gameplay with the addition of decent visuals. Visuals are x100 easier to create than enjoyable gameplay. Creating gameplay is tough, no doubt about it. It annoys me when creators use the old "sorry the level is so short, I spent all the thermo on the background lol" excuse. At times it is just a cop out. However I have learned not everyone is a gameplay nazi like me (and it is really tough to create a level that appeals to both crowds), and that's totally cool. But their levels would be more enjoyable to everyone if they passed "gameplay 101" first. GAMEPLAY FOR LIFE!

2011-07-11 07:42:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

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It depends. I dislike the sparkly fancy-pants scenery but I really do admire advanced character builds with moving parts. Scenery is also important for the level's character. Would a level where you walk on clouds look like a grid-iron shooter? You see games like Portal do well, they don't have the best graphics but the gameplay is so amazing that n one cares. That's what creators should aspire to. I quite agree. What gets me are the creators who seem to think it's a good idea to use so many decorations that the framerate drops, or things start disappearing. Honestly, what possesses some people to be so dense? I like a pretty level as much as the next fellow, but don't be stupid enough to sacrifice the way the game runs just so things can look nice. Your level is a toy, not an ornament. ^This. gameplay is the idea , the scenery is it brought to life. what im saying is you need the gameplay to cater for the scenery, but you need the scenery to cater for the gameplay. scenery is you making the gameplay look nice. i for one hate hate hate hate HATE it when there is a great game with bad graphics.. it makes me... shiver almost. gah i cant find the right words. basicly, when an idea for a game starts, your actually thinking about the gameplay. " i know, a game where u...." etc when you come to making the game, the scenery is so ESSENTIAL. it is what players judge the game on, you dont look at a blank game box and think " oooh wonderful!" the common phrase is " looks good" and again " LOOKS good ". mann i still cant quite get my point out. it will come to me. Agreed. The level's character and personality depends on the scenery, but scenery shouldn't be the backbone of the level. Personally, I give almost 0 importance to scenery. If I'm just walking past some vista, meh. I've seen it done hundreds of times before. I'd much rather experience some new gameplay regardless of visuals, but that's just me.......... I find advanced logic just as visually impressive as anything else . That's it. Prolonged walking sequences aren't cool.

2011-07-11 12:43:00 Author: Tecnoguy1 Posts: 206

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Well generally the ideal is a balance of both, but creators aren't level-making automatons, people have strengths and weaknesses. Plus, there is no right and true way to make a great level. I love playing balls to the wall gameplay, but there are levels that don't excel at that yet come off as a more memorable experience.

2011-07-11 13:06:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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There may be gameplay purists, but admit it, if a level promised revolutionary gameplay, then you entered it and the scenery is poorly designed right at the start, you will at least ask yourself if it really is going to be that revolutionary.

2011-07-11 13:36:00 Author: gdn001 Posts: 5891

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Every reasonable person should agree a balance between gameplay and visuals is best...I've yet to play a level with truly fantastic gameplay and shoddy visuals. As midnight says, the visuals are the easy part, designing fun challenges is the hard part...and someone able to create a super fun level will have enough skill to make it at least presentable. The thing I wish people would keep in mind is that these aren't professionally designed levels, it's people sitting on their couches just creating for fun. I know I could create a better level if I drew things out first, planned obstacles/challenges ahead of time, got play testers, etc. But I already have a job, I create to have fun and relax...and it's more fun to wing it and see what I end up with after creating a cherry tree, ostrich, and a dracolich (NOTE: This is actually how my last 3 levels came about!) People also act like they think the creator is blissfully unaware that just walking to right isn't fun...or that they don't know their level is short, etc. Guess what, they do...they play levels too! It's a game folks, it's unfair to judge a levels so harshly, because creating them probably wasn't a serious business for the creator, get off your high horses...if you want professionally design stuff your going to have to pay for it!

2011-07-11 14:24:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

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I really like well designed scenery, and if it's pretty enough I'm even willing to overlook gameplay that I normally wouldn't consider up to snuff. Having said that, I hate when the scenery interferes with gameplay. Making the ground uneven can make it look more realistic but you have to be careful that there aren't any of those weird little bumps that mess you up right where you need to do a running jump. Lots of decoration and foliage can be nice and can really complete the setting but oftentimes it just serves to confuse me and make it harder to see what I'm doing. If you can pull off pretty scenery without letting it get in the player's way then definitely do it. But scenery can only go so far to compensate for boring gameplay, so try to make that a priority too.

2011-07-11 19:45:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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Personally, i don't think scenery needs to be ultra detailed, per se, but it should definitely look like a bit of effort has gone into it. It doesn't have to be a lot of effort (unless that's what floats your boat). You can get a lot of mileage out of simple things like the dirt smear sticker (to dull down bright colours). One thing that really gets me, though, is sloppiness. Thin layer backgrounds that aren't flush to the object, f'rex. Those little gaps that you can see sometimes when the camera follows your player. i don't know why, but they drive me right up the freaking wall. Or objects, like score bubbles,placed directly into the floor. Or things moving around that clearly oughtn't be (hrmmm...is that, technically a scenery issue, i wonder?). i know (from a bajillion test plays of my level) that it's not easy to catch everything. It seems like these little things breed in the time between plays. But people ought to at least make it look like they tried. You know...i'm sure this will reveal me as a darned fool, but, i never once thought about detail's effect on frame rate and lag...like the concept never even entered my mind. The fact that i did most of my testing off my own moon might hide those kind of issues seems so obvious now...Heck, now i'm really worried that my level's lagging on people (it is fairly detail heavy, is all).

2011-07-11 23:43:00 Author: waffleking23 Posts: 535

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People who are going for pure expression are less focused on gameplay. In LBP you can publish anything you want, it doesnt have to be a AAA level to be good. You can publish something with no gameplay, create an experience for people(doesnt have to be a film either) or just convey a message, and it be as good or better than a level. But when it is a level, you shouldnt let visuals cause lag. It would be better to stylize than go for over-the-top if its going to negatively effect the experience as a whole. Expression > gameplay.

2011-07-12 16:03:00 Author: Bremnen Posts: 1800

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People who are going for pure expression are less focused on gameplay. In LBP you can publish anything you want, it doesnt have to be a AAA level to be good. You can publish something with no gameplay, create an experience for people(doesnt have to be a film either) or just convey a message, and it be as good or better than a level. But when it is a level, you shouldnt let visuals cause lag. It would be better to stylize than go for over-the-top if its going to negatively effect the experience as a whole. Expression > gameplay. On the contrary.. I'm definitely trying to send a moral message with my game that has gameplay like no other... A vast majority of players only care about scenery and dont give a crap about any new or innovative gameplay.. I mean visuals are definitely important to set the atmosphere of a level but if the gameplay is generic than it just feels like your playing the same level with a different theme.. I hate that.. To me what makes a great game is visuals, gameplay and content.. If it takes a few plays to see everything that's always cool. I feel like I have to dumb my tastes down to appeal to the mainstream group of players.. I always though that everyone wanted new unique games that feel apart from LBP because they are so unique.. Nope. Everyone still wants to play the same old stuff thats pretty.. I mean why doesn't my game sound appealing? Why does everyone pretty much refuse to play it? It irritates me that i spent 5 months trying to make the most unique and innovative level that no one is interested in, when I could have spent a week or 2 on a basic platformer with an absurd amount of decorations that everyone would love XD For most lbp players yes, Visuals > Gameplay ... sadly enough.

2011-07-12 18:59:00 Author: Dortr Posts: 548

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... A vast majority of players only care about scenery and dont give a crap about any new or innovative gameplay.. I don't know if that's true. When you think about it, the professionals have been working on new and innovative gameplay ever since pong. It's not easy to come up with something that nobody else has thought of in 30 years. I'm mostly a vehicle builder and let me tell you, while it's easy to make a vehicle that looks awesome, it is NOT easy to make a vehicle that plays awesome. A car in a sidescrolling game is basically a gas and brake pedal. How do you innovate that? I did it with vehicles that can go left and right, jump, and have aimable weapons and that you race through an obstacle course (in my beta level), but tweaking the vehicles to be fun to drive took a lot of work. So yeah, I'm sure that there are many creators who value scenery more than gameplay, but I wouldn't say the "vast majority." More likely, they're good at visuals but don't really know how to make new and innovative gameplay.

2011-07-14 17:41:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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[/QUOTE] Gameplay > Scenery[/QUOTE] I agree with you on this one.

2011-07-14 21:22:00 Author: zzmorg82 Posts: 948

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It's a balance I like the most. Mm got the balance right... well most of the time. Gameplay first, then visuals. I won't heart though unless it has good quality of both.

2011-07-14 21:49:00 Author: KQuinn94Z Posts: 1758

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