Archive: 16 posts

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How would you go about implementing a clutch in a car using LBP2 electronics? You'd need to vary the strength of the signal that powers the wheels/movers for each gear depending how far you have the clutch depressed, but you would coast if you depressed it while moving. In 1st gear there would need to be a biting point and if you lift up too fast from that you stall the engine. These kind of things along with other properties that would need to be simulated make my head hurt. Where would you start?

2011-07-01 03:05:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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Yes because using timers is ****!!

2011-07-01 03:36:00 Author: Unknown User

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Yes because using timers is ****!! Can you explain how you'd use timers to achieve these effects?

2011-07-01 03:42:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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Doesn't seem too hard, but I might be overlooking some things because I have never actually driven a stick. I know a little about them, but my only experience comes from "Manual" transmission in video games. First thing I would do would be to set up separate movers for each gear. When you change gears it doesn't change movers, but instead stacks them(this may not be possible). If you flat out changed movers it would start at 0 again. Each mover would have a lowish acceleration setting to simulate getting up to the gear's max speed. The rumored speed sensor coming in the move pack would probably help you out as well.

2011-07-01 04:27:00 Author: anthman852 Posts: 66

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It's not the same effect, just speeding up. That's why it's **** lol

2011-07-01 13:17:00 Author: Unknown User

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..... Where would you start? Mmm.. practically thinking, personally i wouldn't start at all. lol Most people have problem (me beeing among them) to deal with manual gears. Introducing a clutch making it complex to control (if not frustrating) as you describe, i am afraid will put off even die hard fans of driving. I am not much experienced to say my opinion but just for the record if i was desperate to do it, i 'll probably start with the analog input (R1 or L1) to (what else?) a sequencer with the input set to (what else?) positional so i could have freedom of customization, possibly subtracting the analog signal from the engine speed... mmm.. but then should be only aspecific area of the clutch buttons range that should be this applied and... doh... forget it. lol

2011-07-01 15:12:00 Author: zupaton Posts: 167

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You'd need to vary the strength of the signal that powers the wheels/movers for each gear depending how far you have the clutch depressed, but you would coast if you depressed it while moving. Depends on the the form of the vehicle. If it's a typical side-view 'car' with wheels, then for the most part you'd just rely on the in-built physics engine, such that the the means of propulsion are disabled when the clutch is depressed, and the vehicle would continue to move with its own natural momentum. In 1st gear there would need to be a biting point and if you lift up too fast from that you stall the engine. Technically the 'biting point' exists for all gears - it's just the point where the clutch disc is neither fully engaged nor disengaged, so it can 'slip'. I'm not really a driver, but I suspect you could just as easily stall if you jumped straight from, say, the lowest gear to the highest gear, or from any forward gear straight into reverse. So, I guess it's just a case of comparing the vehicle's current velocity with the desired velocity, and if the difference is beyond a certain threshold, and the clutch is fully engaged, then you'd shut down the 'engine'.

2011-07-03 01:17:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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Mmm.. practically thinking, personally i wouldn't start at all. lol Most people have problem (me beeing among them) to deal with manual gears. Introducing a clutch making it complex to control (if not frustrating) as you describe, i am afraid will put off even die hard fans of driving. I am not much experienced to say my opinion but just for the record if i was desperate to do it, i 'll probably start with the analog input (R1 or L1) to (what else?) a sequencer with the input set to (what else?) positional so i could have freedom of customization, possibly subtracting the analog signal from the engine speed... mmm.. but then should be only aspecific area of the clutch buttons range that should be this applied and... doh... forget it. lol Since I've never driven an automatic can you explain how they behave? I'm guessing neutral is essentially the same as depressing the clutch in a car with manual transmission. Depends on the the form of the vehicle. If it's a typical side-view 'car' with wheels, then for the most part you'd just rely on the in-built physics engine, such that the the means of propulsion are disabled when the clutch is depressed, and the vehicle would continue to move with its own natural momentum. I'd likely want to use it for both a side-view and top-down vehicle. At the moment I'm just trying to figure out a basic setup that works for a side-view vehicle. Technically the 'biting point' exists for all gears - it's just the point where the clutch disc is neither fully engaged nor disengaged, so it can 'slip'. I'm not really a driver, but I suspect you could just as easily stall if you jumped straight from, say, the lowest gear to the highest gear, or from any forward gear straight into reverse. So, I guess it's just a case of comparing the vehicle's current velocity with the desired velocity, and if the difference is beyond a certain threshold, and the clutch is fully engaged, then you'd shut down the 'engine'. Good point, though I'm not going to test it in my car I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind your next point. I think I'm stuck at an earlier stage of getting the power to go through depending if the clutch is depressed or not at increments for each gear, and only being able to change gear easily if the clutch is depressed. It seems from experience that 1st gear, and I suppose reverse, are exceptions...? It seems less necessary that you balance the clutch correctly in higher gears once you're moving, you can just depress it fully and lift up smoothly and you're fine - do the same in 1st gear and if you lift up completely too fast you stall.

2011-07-03 15:39:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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I'd likely want to use it for both a side-view and top-down vehicle. At the moment I'm just trying to figure out a basic setup that works for a side-view vehicle. I put together a reasonable simulation of a side-view vehicle with an analog accelerator and brake (R2/L2), and a digital clutch and toggleable handbrake (R1/L1), using rotators on the wheels. Problem is, there's only two buttons (R2/L2) which can produce an analog output - other than that you're stuck with having to use the analog sticks. How did you envisage mapping the controls to the various functions? I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind your next point. AIUI, an engine is designed to shut itself down (rather than destroy itself) if it's having to do much more work than it's capable of, which, in theory, occurs at any point where there's a massive rotational velocity differential between the driving member and the driven member. I think I'm stuck at an earlier stage of getting the power to go through depending if the clutch is depressed or not... Well, in the example I made using a basic rotator, it's a simple as not feeding a signal into the rotator when the clutch is depressed, so the object continues to move under its own momentum, but gradualy slows due to friction. Bear in mind that a constant engine speed produces a constant torque, not (necessarily) a constant vehicle velocity. The maximum velocity is determined by the amount of friction on the system. In practise that means that if you're intending to control the velocity of the vehicle directly (e.g. with an Advanced Mover/Rotator), then you'd have to do the math for the Newtonian mechanics yourself. If you stick with the basic Mover/Rotator, you can exploit the fact that LBP's physics engine already does it all for you - hence why I used the basic Mover in Spacewar, rather than the Advanced Mover. ...at increments for each gear... Which would be as simple as feeding in different values to the rotator. ...and only being able to change gear easily if the clutch is depressed. That's a bit more complicated - I mean, how would you make gear shifting difficult given the limitations of the controller? It seems less necessary that you balance the clutch correctly in higher gears once you're moving, you can just depress it fully and lift up smoothly and you're fine - do the same in 1st gear and if you lift up completely too fast you stall. TBH, I've never really tried something like shifting straight from 1st to 5th, so I've no idea what it'd do.

2011-07-03 17:15:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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I put together a reasonable simulation of a side-view vehicle with an analog accelerator and brake (R2/L2), and a digital clutch and toggleable handbrake (R1/L1), using rotators on the wheels. Problem is, there's only two buttons (R2/L2) which can produce an analog output - other than that you're stuck with having to use the analog sticks. How did you envisage mapping the controls to the various functions? I was thinking R2=accelerator R1=brake and L2=clutch, with the gear shift being done with the left analog stick. Not 100% decided on the handbrake but the lower directional button seems the natural place for it in relation to the other controls. A digital brake sucks but having it on the left side of the controller feels off to me. AIUI, an engine is designed to shut itself down (rather than destroy itself) if it's having to do much more work than it's capable of, which, in theory, occurs at any point where there's a massive rotational velocity differential between the driving member and the driven member. So you have two analog values, one for velocity and one for the velocity the current gear should reach and if they are different by a set margin and the clutch isn't depressed kill the engine? Well, in the example I made using a basic rotator, it's a simple as not feeding a signal into the rotator when the clutch is depressed, so the object continues to move under its own momentum, but gradualy slows due to friction. Bear in mind that a constant engine speed produces a constant torque, not (necessarily) a constant vehicle velocity. The maximum velocity is determined by the amount of friction on the system. In practise that means that if you're intending to control the velocity of the vehicle directly (e.g. with an Advanced Mover/Rotator), then you'd have to do the math for the Newtonian mechanics yourself. If you stick with the basic Mover/Rotator, you can exploit the fact that LBP's physics engine already does it all for you - hence why I used the basic Mover in Spacewar, rather than the Advanced Mover. I see. I'm guessing for a top-down car friction could be modelled via the dampening setting on a gravity tweaker, combined with the deceleration settings on a mover which could count as engine braking. Modelling friction separately means you could change it depending on speed or road surface with tags or something. Wonder if that would work in practise though, not sure if gravity dampening and deceleration settings stack. That's a bit more complicated - I mean, how would you make gear shifting difficult given the limitations of the controller? In gameplay terms maybe adding a delay for the next gear and a horrible crunching noise

2011-07-03 18:27:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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I was thinking R2=accelerator R1=brake and L2=clutch, with the gear shift being done with the left analog stick. ...and what about steering for a top-down version? Seems like a rather complex control system, TBH. A digital brake sucks... Totally. Going straight to locked wheels is pretty unrealistic. ...but having it on the left side of the controller feels off to me. I just happened to pick R2=accelerate and L2=brake, cos that's the convention for most of the recent PS3 driving games. Correctly operating a clutch, and dealing with a stalled engine, is probably the least interesting part of a driving simulation, which is presumably why none of the driving games I've played include that. Mostly they tend to roll-up the clutch and accelerator onto a single button (usually R2) such that the clutch is deemed to be fully depressed when R2 is not being pressed, as there's generally no need to rev the engine when the clutch is fully depressed. However, this may just be the way that the accelerator of a car with automatic transmission operates. So as a compromise between realism and convenience, you could use a similar convention, but modify it such that if you punch R2 too quickly, taking into account the current speed/gear, the engine might stall. That would leave L2 free for an analog braking system. So you have two analog values, one for velocity and one for the velocity the current gear should reach and if they are different by a set margin and the clutch isn't depressed kill the engine? Something like that ought to work, but I'm not sure that's exactly correct. I'm guessing for a top-down car friction could be modelled via the dampening setting on a gravity tweaker, combined with the deceleration settings on a mover which could count as engine braking. Modelling friction separately means you could change it depending on speed or road surface with tags or something. Wonder if that would work in practise though, not sure if gravity dampening and deceleration settings stack. I'd probably do it with three basic movers on strength scale - one pointing forward, and two backwards. The forward mover would model the acceleration from the engine, one of the backward movers would model the brake, and the other would model drag, such that its input value is relative to the square of the current velocity. Basic movers stack nicely, but advanced movers tend to cancel each other out in some cases. TBH, the most difficult part of top-down is producing a realistic steering model.

2011-07-03 19:49:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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Since I've never driven an automatic can you explain how they behave? I'm guessing neutral is essentially the same as depressing the clutch in a car with manual transmission. Hi. Sorry for the misunderstanding, actually i meant implementing it to a game and how difficult will be to deal with it, not how it feels in real life. Also never myself drove car with automatic transmision (if my memory serves me well), just have some experience from semi-auto small bikes. Anyway, in short what i could think about the project (since you seem pretty serious about it heh) regarding the keymapping i would go for either R2 or L2 (contrary to what i posted in my previews post lol) for the clutch, L1-L2 or R1-R2 or L1 R1 for shifting, X for throttle, [] for brake, O for handbrake and triangle for reverse (pretty standard if you ask me). Now regarding the power of the engine and the implementation of clutch in my opinion the engine shouldn't stall completely if you don't achive the timing right but depending on the combination of the gear the rpm and the clutch (not so much the position but rather the timing i think) together, should remove speed from the engine at the 1-3 gears (less at 1st more at 2nd and even more at 3rd) and at higher gears 4-5 should make it stop accelerating and even slowly loose power. Of course each gear should rev the engine at different speeds (timings). I think the analog aspect of the clutch and how you gradually push it, only helps most in 1st gear when the engine needs to give the initial push to the cars weight from the zero speed. After that only the timing is more crucial to achieve some high performance maybe. For sure dont ask me about putting it in LBP cause my brain already hurts just thinking the afformentioned stuff. lol As i said, i think is much of a hassle to implement it in a game making it rather difficult but neverthless an interesting challenge, though simply having manual gears and timing the shifting right sounds enough for gameplay. Sorry if what i write is not much understandable (not native english) but hope it gives some clue to what i mean.

2011-07-03 22:39:00 Author: zupaton Posts: 167

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...and what about steering for a top-down version? Seems like a rather complex control system, TBH. For steering since the wheel is right of the gear shifter which is the left analog stick the right analog stick seems natural. Yeah, I know, but for the controls I'm trying to think how you would most accurately represent the layout of a right-hand drive car on the controller. Another way would be to use the six-axis, I haven't really messed with that yet tho'. Totally. Going straight to locked wheels is pretty unrealistic. Perhaps as a really dodgy workaround a up/down timer could be used :/ I just happened to pick R2=accelerate and L2=brake, cos that's the convention for most of the recent PS3 driving games. Correctly operating a clutch, and dealing with a stalled engine, is probably the least interesting part of a driving simulation, which is presumably why none of the driving games I've played include that. lol yes. It might not be fun but the idea of it is way too interesting not to try! I should say I'm more interested in it as a problem than as something for a level that other people would use. So as a compromise between realism and convenience, you could use a similar convention, but modify it such that if you punch R2 too quickly, taking into account the current speed/gear, the engine might stall. That would leave L2 free for an analog braking system. I'd probably do it with three basic movers on strength scale - one pointing forward, and two backwards. The forward mover would model the acceleration from the engine, one of the backward movers would model the brake, and the other would model drag, such that its input value is relative to the square of the current velocity. Basic movers stack nicely, but advanced movers tend to cancel each other out in some cases. TBH, the most difficult part of top-down is producing a realistic steering model. That's an interesting idea combining the clutch and accelerator. At the outset I thought about having the clutch being made from physical in-game components like a piston and set of tags (not that electronics aren't physical but you know what I mean), maybe physically making the front tires turn using wobble bolts and mounting a mover on them or something would help simplify things. I've made a top-down car where each tire has variable 'grip' and setting one side to have higher grip makes the car turn. It's more akin to how a tank would handle but maybe with some tweaking it might work. regarding the keymapping i would go for either R2 or L2 (contrary to what i posted in my previews post lol) for the clutch, L1-L2 or R1-R2 or L1 R1 for shifting, X for throttle, [] for brake, O for handbrake and triangle for reverse (pretty standard if you ask me). Now regarding the power of the engine and the implementation of clutch in my opinion the engine shouldn't stall completely if you don't achive the timing right but depending on the combination of the gear the rpm and the clutch (not so much the position but rather the timing i think) together, should remove speed from the engine at the 1-3 gears (less at 1st more at 2nd and even more at 3rd) and at higher gears 4-5 should make it stop accelerating and even slowly loose power. Of course each gear should rev the engine at different speeds (timings). Yeah, that control scheme seems pretty widespread in PlayStation driving games. Triangle for reverse seems kinda redundant if you can just shift gears, though. I think it was like that in Gran Turismo. Is your idea that each gear has an associated timer with it, and if the player fails to shift during it they are punished with slower acceleration? It would be x10 more easier to implement for sure!

2011-07-06 10:48:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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First off, im sorry if this post is really old. I cant figure out the date as i found it through the search engine. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind your next point. I think I'm stuck at an earlier stage of getting the power to go through depending if the clutch is depressed or not at increments for each gear, and only being able to change gear easily if the clutch is depressed. It seems from experience that 1st gear, and I suppose reverse, are exceptions...? It seems less necessary that you balance the clutch correctly in higher gears once you're moving, you can just depress it fully and lift up smoothly and you're fine - do the same in 1st gear and if you lift up completely too fast you stall. the reason you have to depress the clutch slowly when going from a stop to moving, is because you are trying to get the engine speed to match the transmission (and wheel) speed without the engine RPM stalling. however, while the vehicle is in motion, the only real reason you need to use the clutch to shift, is to avoid damage to internal transmission parts which engage and disengage each individual gear. now, back to my first point, if you try to start from a stop to say third gear, the engine struggles much more since in a higher gear, there is less torque and more speed. that is pretty much the whole point of having gears on a car, because an engine can only operate efficiently at certain RPM ranges, so to maximize that range at a wider range of speeds, we add a transmission. Also never myself drove car with automatic transmision (if my memory serves me well), just have some experience from semi-auto small bikes. these operate pretty much the same as a torque converter on a car, and is essentially a clutch that can automatically engage and disengage when the engine RPM goes beyond a certain point. thats why the engine does not stall when it is idling even if it is gear, because the RPMs are not sufficient to engage the engine to the transmission.

2011-09-26 05:12:00 Author: horwitzer Posts: 255

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If you hold the move vertically by your side and move forward and backward to change gears, I will love you forever.

2011-09-26 15:24:00 Author: nunsmasher Posts: 247

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so, i made an automatic version transmission and am currently working on turning it standard. so the drviing games i had played used either r1 or r2 for acceleration, but i'm not entirely sure that it truely matters. basically this is how I did it. I had a rotator on a wheel set to speed scale and then used tags and sensors to tell it how fast to go. it recieves 6 different signals (5 forward and one reverse) in order to simulate accelration or deccelration I made a speed scale timer feedback loop. I'd increase the time it took to reach max speed in each gear. now in automatic this doesn't matter, but I also created a sweet spot. a perfect gear shift timeing. if you held in too high off rpms for too long it'd go boom and if you changed too early you'd experience a longer accel time. but I also made it so that you couldn't just change from 1 to 5 in a flash. (if this happens in real life unless you have the rpms high enough you will stall. it's like this in every gear. oh, fyi in first gear it doesn't matter how fast you take your foot off the clutch as long as you do the correct thing with the gas. how do you think racer get off the line soo fast). so you could make it so that if the driver decided he wanted to take off like a bat out of hell, he'd have to be pretty **** exact in his timing. oh and each car is different so I made it so that you could change the top speed of the vehicle, the acceleration speed and even the sweet spot of each gear. so you can change them up and have differen vehicles like that.

2011-09-27 17:38:00 Author: Unknown User

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