Archive: 19 posts

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I'm currently making a level (top-down shooter, rts, rpg-esque) with an incredibly absurd amount of logic, but my visuals are so basic that I'm worried they would severely subtract from the playing experience (I'm not kidding, their pretty much just hologram edited with the corner tool to make some cool shapes, better yet, the 4 factions in the game are simply different colours...). I've added some special effects that I hope cover up the lack of artistic design, and the game is very innovative, so I'm hoping it isn't too much of an issue. Judging by the reception of some of the arcade top-down shooters, this is not an issue, but I am curious though about how the community feels about visuals, if a level is spectacular in every way except visuals, would you still enjoy it as much as a less impressive but more visually appealing level? Also, if anyone wants to check it out and see for yourself, I should be done the full demo soon (I'd probably be done in 2 days, but access to my PS3 is severely limited right now. I may get a little carried away and just finish the entire thing without a demo, but I want some feedback before I finish, so it should be up eventually. It'd be great to finally know if my choice of logic over art was worth it.

2011-06-04 17:37:00 Author: SSTAGG1 Posts: 1136

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If the gameplay is fantastic, great! However what you have described sounds like some kind of retro shooter (I may be completely wrong). Take a look at some old 8-bit games for inspiration! You may also notice that they had very limited visuals, but still got people playing them over and over! I'm sure that you could replicate this kind of success! Good luck and happy creating!

2011-06-04 17:47:00 Author: Plasmavore Posts: 1913

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i've had limited success using neither.

2011-06-04 17:50:00 Author: Deftmute Posts: 730

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Visuals are always a plus. Take the time, or get the help to add it to your level. Never settle for "good enough" in your level.

2011-06-04 17:57:00 Author: CYMBOL Posts: 1230

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IMHO visuals are every bit as important as gameplay/logic. Your level's aesthetic, is one of the key factors. Don't get me wrong, I think you can still have a great level without the best visuals, but if you have some killer visuals, the level will be all that much better. Your level's first impression on people is the visuals, so if you have some kick but visuals, people might be more enamored with the level right off the get go.

2011-06-05 01:57:00 Author: smasher Posts: 641

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I have to agree with smasher. Visuals are every bit as important. That would include decorations, stickers, lighting*, graphics/corner editing skills are very very important. Keep in mind that fog, darkness color balance and global lighting can also add into that equation depending on the type of level and level atmosphere. However, I would also add sounds to that as well as music! All of these are just as important as the gameplay/logic to make it a total experience for the players.

2011-06-05 02:46:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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Detail and logic are key features of a level. Without one, the level is incomplete. For example, take the link in my sig to play a level that will take you to 4 different level links to unfinished levels. They are all detail/design and see no logic, not much gameplay. Remember, logic is anything found in the tools bag...

2011-06-05 03:16:00 Author: BonBonBoi Posts: 246

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Wow, thanks for the responses. Just to be clear, I'm definitely NOT worried about the gameplay/logic. I just watched my AI play another game by itself, completely different results every time (and then did it 8 more times, it's just so mesmerizing). I could even add a mode where the player can move around the entire map quickly and watch the wars unfold (good idea?, I dunno, easy to do though). The issue I have with visuals is that I'm using ONLY hologram (no, really, it's my only material). It's a necessary sacrifice I had to make to get the gameplay I wanted. Making holo look nice is, to me, impossible. It looks 'good' to me, and matches the style I made everything with, but there are very few things I can think of to make the game look nicer. Lighting, sound, music, only things that would help IMO (and what a coincidence, I have none of them...). I suppose it does really depend on the level and the person playing. Myself, I'll get absorbed in games that have no animations, just different screens showing different information. I put concept and innovations so far above art and sounds that I rarely remember its a major component in games. I'm adding more special effects though, and some of them look quite nice. Shielding effects when getting shot, bursts of energy when shots impact, healing effects, explosion debris, and a whole new component of 'leveling' with skill points to unlock skills. Hopefully players will appreciate the game for what it is, rather than focus on what it lacks.

2011-06-05 03:56:00 Author: SSTAGG1 Posts: 1136

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In LBP world visuals are most wowing effect, i say look on lockstich, his level don't have much of gameplay, just platfroming and switches, but visuals is are that attracting. Ofcorse if oyu do fun gameplay it will be wow too, but it's much harder then to do then visuals if oyu got skill for visuals

2011-06-05 04:34:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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I think that in any hobby game-making community (which LBP2 is) visuals become more important simply because we all want to see something we haven't seen a kajillion times before. This goes on in the RPG Maker community, too. The use of RTP, those basic fantasy sprites that come with the program, fails to impress one's fellow members in the community because everybody and their dog is using those same old sprites. (However, if you show your RTP-laden game to someone outside the RPG Maker community, it may look just great to them, so target audience factors in) In other words, it's about setting your project apart from what everyone else is doing. Because the first time you played LBP and swung on a triangular yellow sponge, it was pretty neat, but it's not any more. If you're making a retro arcade type of thing, you're already setting yourself apart from what the average joe is making, so you've got an advantage.

2011-06-05 08:57:00 Author: zabel99 Posts: 179

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I have concluded that it's not really Visuals or Gameplay, nor is it Visuals and Play, it's Visuals and/or Gameplay. As long as it's strong in one area and not revolting/handles like a fat big in the water it's just whatever you want to focus on. So I say stick with whatever visuals you want. Appealing to a bunch of players doesn't matter unless that's your goal going into the level making process. So again, it really depends on what you want. Gaming in general is so tied into preference and taste that you can not separate them, so don't try. What do I know though. I'm no expert, just a teenager making observations.

2011-06-06 01:25:00 Author: RagTagPwner Posts: 344

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How your level looks (and plays) is a sign that that the creater spent time on a level to make it the best level he or she can make. I only like a level that was not rushed. To me, that is ALL that matters. You dont need as much detail as Steve big guns FPS to be a good creater. If you do your best, you will be rewarded. The bad thing is that it varys between creaters. You will get plays and good feedback from the communty. LBPC members are all realy good about giving helpful feedback and reviews.

2011-06-06 01:58:00 Author: Unknown User

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My main goal is to make a fun game, that's all that matters to me. Making innovative game concepts is, to me, more fun than designing visuals which just don't seem to offer that element of playability to a game. My second goal is to make a level that people will enjoy playing, which is why my concern for visuals exists (I should probably think out my goals before-hand, lol. Make sure they don't contradict). I am starting to like the simplistic designs I used though. Very easy to know what's going on, and allows me MUCH more flexibility when creating the game (and also MUCH easier to adjust things, change direction...which I've done too many times already...) It does bother me though something as easy on the thermo as a custom song is still beyond me. I've added several sound effects to both the weapons and units, and am testing out some lighting effects that gives players a field of vision. World is dark except for the area around the player. It's quite cool watching the minimap as enemies pass close by, but just outside your view, sometimes trying to shoot at you depending on the range of their weapons. I'm hoping to get my level up soon so I can get some feedback on it (should have a beta version out within a few days, made a significant amount of progress today). I've tried adding several game concepts I've almost never seen done before, like a title screen mini-game, achievements, a map of the game world, saving progress, mixed genres (RTS/twin stick shooter/RPG), and MMO structure (players can join/leave at will, gameplay is unaltered). These are what I am relying on to overcome the lack of visuals (and only possible 'because' of the lack of visuals). I suppose that raises another point, where should visuals stop and gameplay begin (or vice-versa). Beautiful levels are great, but I find it hard to appreciate when there is absolutely nothing to do. On the flip side, I've seen few good games following my strategy. A sign of things to come? I hope not. BTW, great feedback, this is turning out to be a great discussion. I suppose my concrete opinion on this is just do whatever you like, if others appreciate it, great. There's just too much stress in creating for others (which is why my next project will probably remain a secret until I need it tested).

2011-06-06 04:40:00 Author: SSTAGG1 Posts: 1136

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I think some people exaggerate the importance of great visuals and put too much focus on them often to the detriment of the level. Sometimes there are levels packed with so much detail it slows the framerate, causes screen tearing, and at times even looks too cluttered for my tastes. I'm not even sure what I should be looking at. That said, visuals are important to an extent because that's the first thing people see. Decent visuals will immediately inform the player there was some effort put into the level. I think you could do just fine just using holo and maybe a few stickers, lights, and emitter effects. It doesn't take a million different pieces of deco, stickers, materials, shapes, etc to make a nice looking level. It can come through a sense of style and good presentation. Sometimes less is more. If your game is great and requires you make a sacrifice in visuals then people who appreciate great gameplay will appreciate that you were willing to make that sacrifice.

2011-06-06 06:49:00 Author: Reef1978 Posts: 527

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Visuals are important. However i think what's more important is level polish. It doesn't matter if a level looks good or not, but if there a lot of jagged edges, bugs & glitches, and just a total disinterest for the level by its creator... That ruins everything for me.

2011-06-06 19:03:00 Author: Flame Dragon Posts: 312

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My main goal is to make a fun game, that's all that matters to me. Making innovative game concepts is, to me, more fun than designing visuals which just don't seem to offer that element of playability to a game. My second goal is to make a level that people will enjoy playing, which is why my concern for visuals exists (I should probably think out my goals before-hand, lol. Make sure they don't contradict). If you're goal is to make a fun game, do it! From what you've said, it sounds absoloutely fantastic already! If you're concerned that you aren't the best at visuals, just publish it how it is now, maybe with a couple of tweaks though to the visual style. If the gameplay is superb, original, and most importantly, fun, you will rack up tons of plays. As for your second goal, if visuals really concern you that much, team up with another creator who is better at visuals, and get them to do the visuals for you, with you, of course, thanking them in the level description for their hard work! This, I feel, is the best option for creators who feel their logic/visuals aren't the best, but want their levels to be visually/logically sound. You never know, maybe your partner in crime could teach you a thing or to? And you could teach them in return about logic! Good luck, I hope your level is a huge success!

2011-06-06 20:05:00 Author: Plasmavore Posts: 1913

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Yeh, good visuals aren't about having a decoration hanging off every available corner, it's more about style.

2011-06-06 20:30:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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For anyone interested, I made a vid just to show the A.I./shooting in my level, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2iEOrbQxLc). It's not much, but shows some of the sounds/visuals I was planning on using. That's pretty much the direction I was going for visuals. Missing are the damage effects since the unit being attacked is just a model with no logic. Opinions on sounds? I tried to make each weapon type unique. EDIT: Also, would music add to that scene, or simply get in the way of the battle? I'd have to use some Mm music, which is still good, but less impressive than player creations. I'll likely just limit it to a single track, something to add sound when there are no shots (which is fairly rare though).

2011-06-06 22:13:00 Author: SSTAGG1 Posts: 1136

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I'd like to say they're not because I'm awful at them, but I do think that good visuals help a lot. Having said that, if the gameplay is dull, I'll quit, no matter what the visuals are like.

2011-06-07 16:32:00 Author: kirbyman62 Posts: 1893

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