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There is no such thing as "FreeWill"

Archive: 70 posts

An interesting philisophical proposition.

Consider this;

There is no such thing as freewill... all your actions are based on a predetermined set of conditions - going right back to the big bang - right up until this moment in time.
Any feeling of freewill, or of 'making a choice' is an illusion created by your conscious mind to justify your decision.
In actual fact what you are doing is making a "judgement call" based on the available options and tempered by the pre-existing set of conditions... which include your upbringing, genetic predisptosition and environmental factors.

You might think that you can do anything you want - make any choice you want - but you can't/won't... precicely because of this pre-existing set of conditions.

Freewill is an illusion created by your mind.
It's like imagining an Elephant - in your mind you can see the elephant, it's large, it's grey, it has a trunk... it is the essense of Elephant. But that Elephant does not actually exist, it is simply a construct of your mind.
Similarly, Freewill is simply a construct of the mind that we use to convince ourselves that our judgement call (based on the pre-existing set of conditions) is our own choice and therefore something we would want to do.

It takes a while to fully get your head around the far reaching consequences of this idea... but it actually makes sense, and explains fully all human behaviour (and human stupidity).

Don't believe me?
Then consider those circumstances where we are thought not to have "freewill" - such as 'temporary insanity' or inebriation through alcohol.
At what point during the slide toward insanity (or inebriation) do we let go of that concept of "freewill"?
The fact is we don't... we never had "freewill" - all that happens is your "Judgement Call" making software in your brain starts making 'bad judgement calls'.

It's actually a very interesting concept.

-Discuss 		2011-05-20 11:42:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

So making a choice of yes or no is a "Judgement Call"2011-05-20 12:16:00

Author:
Unknown User

So making a choice of yes or no is a "Judgement Call"

Exactly so.
You aren't going to say "Yes" to something you don't want to - without a predetermined set of conditions that would force you into saying "yes".

Illusionists like Derren Brown can put this to great effect - where he has two envelopes, one full of money the other empty - and can even tell the person "The money is in Envelope B" - but because he knows how to manipulate their judgement call - they will 'always' pick envelope A".

The person choosing may think they have the freewill to choose, and are exersizing it by making their choice - but their choice has been manipulated by pre-determined factors... which is why Derren never has to give the money away.		2011-05-20 12:53:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

The person choosing may think they have the freewill to choose, and are exersizing it by making their choice - but their choice has been manipulated by pre-determined factors... which is why Derren never has to give the money away.
So how would he react when a person takes both envelopes?
(That would be my choice, just to be random and to make a point)		2011-05-20 12:59:00

Author:
Gilgamesh
Posts: 2536

So how would he react when a person takes both envelopes?
(That would be my choice, just to be random and to make a point)

good one!


I made another choice and never went to the show. 		2011-05-20 13:01:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

Well, that's another point that illustrates how we really don't have any freewill at all - just the ability to judge between the available options.

What you are proposing, is that given the choice between A & B - that you would choose C.
But C was never an option.

That'd be like saying - rather than catch something with your right arm or your left arm - you 'choose' instead to grow a 3rd arm and catch it with that.
This further shows that our decisions are based on pre-existing conditions rather than any direct "freewill"


The "choice" not to go to the show or not is based on yet more pre-existing conditions - such as "Do you like Derren Brown?" - "Is he playing somewhere that you could reasonably attend?" - "Do you have a ticket?" etc.
These will all be predetermining factors in your apparently "freewill" decision.
But you don;t have the freewill to go to see Derren Brown where he is not playing and with no ticket. 		2011-05-20 13:13:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

lol

Sure it was an option.. I even had a ticket. ..or what if I was just late and never saw that part of the show? Then of course the possibility that I went, was a big fan and Derren picked the cute girl in the front row and not me.. I never even had the choice in the first place.

..and I never had to grow an arm for any of those. Magicians hate me.. they say "pick a card", I take their hat or something. 		2011-05-20 13:21:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

So you think you have been pre-determined to make a thread wondering if we actually all do pre-determined things?
Isn't that like, dividing by zero?		2011-05-20 13:33:00

Author:
KQuinn94Z
Posts: 1758

What you are proposing, is that given the choice between A & B - that you would choose C.
But C was never an option.
Only if you choose to accept those limits. There are always more choices that people disregard in favor of following the rules or some such. That doesn't keep those choices from existing.



That'd be like saying - rather than catch something with your right arm or your left arm - you 'choose' instead to grow a 3rd arm and catch it with that.
Or you have the option not to catch it at all. Or the option to catch it with your teeth. Now here's the real mind bender: you actually CAN choose to grow a third arm and catch it with that. (But it doesn't mean you'll succeed).		2011-05-20 13:33:00

Author:
Gilgamesh
Posts: 2536

lol

Sure it was an option.. I even had a ticket. ..or what if I was just late and never saw that part of the show? Then of course the possibility that I went, was a big fan and Derren picked the cute girl in the front row and not me.. I never even had the choice in the first place.

..and I never had to grow an arm for any of those. Magicians hate me.. they say "pick a card", I take their hat or something.

So, for all the "freewill" in the world - you would not be able to choose "option C - Both Envelopes" - as Derren would have picked someone else entirely (and would most likely never choose someone like yourself - who would deliberately ruin the trick - but in ruining the trick you would earn the hatred of the rest of the audience for not "playing by the rules" - so I doubt that you would even choose "option C" even if you did have the choice).

This just further proves that there is no such thing as freewill... you can only work with what you've got, and make a judgement call based on predetermined conditions (such as a phychological need to ruin a magicians trick)		2011-05-20 13:41:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

So what happens in events where you close your eyes, spin around and point?2011-05-20 13:42:00

Author:
KQuinn94Z
Posts: 1758

So, for all the "freewill" in the world - you would not be able to choose "option C - Both Envelopes" -

So you now agree that Option C exists!!! I happen to believe all options exist as well... like someone who stayed at the bar and never saw the show trying to pick some girl he found there. Another stuck on his cell phone in the lobby trying to explain how to bypass an error since he was oncall. Another stuck in the bathroom because the lunch his company brought in didn't agree with him. Yet another that was excited to see the show, but was killed in an auto accident on the way there. Or yet some other person there, was picked by Derren and due to being dyslexic picked the opposite that was suggested to them.

I can keep going if you like.. 		2011-05-20 13:54:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

So what happens in events where you close your eyes, spin around and point?

That's random chance isn't it...

Or is it?
Actually it isn't "that" random.
Where you stop and where you point, is again - decided by predetermined conditions... such as the starting point of you spinning... how long you can spin for without feeling dizzy - how long you can hold up your arm before it gets tired... all of these factors will affect the "end point" of where you are pointing.

But even so - how is randomly spinning and pointing an exersize in "freewill" - it's an exersize in randomness... as random as rolling a dice.
Do you have any "freewill" in determining what your dice roll will be?		2011-05-20 13:55:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

Yes, For I am Darren Brown, and the dice has no freewill...

What pre-determined event has caused me to write "dgfjfdgiuovsciueiu" rather than "rdjgthudfhgkj"? The speed of my hands? The time taken at button bashing? How about just because I felt like doing it?

Its impossible to prove or dissprove...


sehruoniy... yeah...		2011-05-20 14:06:00

Author:
KQuinn94Z
Posts: 1758

So you now agree that Option C exists!!! I happen to believe all options exist as well... like someone who stayed at the bar and never saw the show trying to pick some girl he found there. Another stuck on his cell phone in the lobby trying to explain how to bypass an error since he was oncall. Another stuck in the bathroom because the lunch his company brought in didn't agree with him. Yet another that was excited to see the show, but was killed in an auto accident on the way there. Or yet some other person there, was picked by Derren and due to being dyslexic picked the opposite that was suggested to them.

I can keep going if you like..
None of those options have "freewill" as a requirement though

Sure there are more "options";
Such as option D - pick none of the envelopes and instead punch Derren Brown in his smug face. But that would be a judgement call.

But just because you act out a "choice" doesn't mean that you arrived at that decision because of "Freewill" - the pre-existing determining factors will have more of a role in your final "decision" than the illusion of freewill.

Such as the need to procreate - over-riding your judgement that you should go to the Derren Brown show in favour of staying at the bar to talk to a nice girl. etc.


There is further evidence that we don't have freewill... all you have to do is look at those circumstances where we quite obviously don't have freewill.. such as involuntary movements.
All it takes is a loud noise or sudden movement - and the millions of years of evolution that culminated in our conscious mind with it's illusion of freewill go out the window - and you will scream, jump in the air, loose control of your bowels and then maybe curl up into the fetal position and weep uncontrolably.
None of that would have been your "first choice" reaction to a loud noise/sudden movement - but as I said, there is actually no such thing as "freewill".		2011-05-20 14:12:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

Do you have any "freewill" in determining what your dice roll will be?

Consider this: you had the "freewill" to post this thread. You have the "freewill" to post on this website. And there are no pre-determined factors or conditions that actually dictated you to do either/or. You chose to make this thread not because of the obstacles or settings presented before you; you had an idea, and just posted. And really, choosing whether to do or not do something is just a natural, reoccurring situation. And really, that's the beauty of it. You have choices, and you're given the liberty and freedom of choosing which one.

And if there's no choice to choose, or the choices presented aren't suitable to you, then you have the freedom to not make one or make your own.		2011-05-20 14:16:00

Author:
Outlaw-Jack
Posts: 5757

The last loud noise out my window, I jumped up and looked out the window while saying "Cool!" ...but then I'm not normal.

I dunno.. When I go to McDonalds I usually get the #1, but every so often I want a #2. I sometimes want both, but there is no way I can eat all that. Then again, at times I get a quarter pounder with cheese and skip the fries. Am I not selecting my food choice based upon what I want at that time? I might pick one since I had the other the day before, but why if I haven't been there for awhile simply choose what I want because I have freewill to choose anything I want from that menu?

...and most times I don't even want McDonalds at all as I don't really like it often.		2011-05-20 14:28:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

Consider this: you had the "freewill" to post this thread. You have the "freewill" to post on this website. And there are no pre-determined factors or conditions that actually dictated you to do either/or. You chose to make this thread not because of the obstacles or settings presented before you; you had an idea, and just posted. And really, choosing whether to do or not do something is just a natural, reoccurring situation. And really, that's the beauty of it. You have choices, and you're given the liberty and freedom of choosing which one.

And if there's no choice to choose, or the choices presented aren't suitable to you, then you have the freedom to not make one or make your own.

Actually - you are quite wrong.
The decision for me to post specifically on this website - specifically about this topic - is based on a myriad of pre-existing conditions which I played no part in.
Such as the discovery of electricity - leading to the eventual invention of computers, leading to the ineternet - leading eventually to LBPcentral.com.
Then there is the pre-existing factors of me being a creative type person - which I have a seeming genetic predisposition - making LBP one of my favourite games.
Then there is my argumentative nature - to do with my upbringing ;
Then there is the desire not to do work and instead post on forums: a judgement call that posting on forums will be more fun than doing work.

So a combination of environmental, genetic, and pre-existing factors such as upbringing - all determine that I will be posting this very post - and a similar set of circumstances dictate that you would post what you posted, in defense of freewill.

But at no point does "Freewill" need to enter into it.
Freewill has yet to be proven to exist.

Also consider - is it only humans that have freewill? - How do chimpanzees decide which banana to eat? - how do dogs choose what foodstuffs to eat? how do ameobas decide what direction to swim in?


We are simply making a series of "Judgement Calls" based on all of the pre-existing factors that have led us up to this point.		2011-05-20 14:50:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

Breaking this down a little, decisions that we make are essentially based around various factors, environment, memories, emotions, etc. We evaluate those and then come to a decision. This is how we exert our free will.

Such factors, and the formulation of the decisions themselves are, fundamentally, electronic signals in your brain. Which are themselves controlled by the fundamental physical laws of the universe. Which effectively comes down to maths. In fact all of our best understanding of the nature of the human condition suggest that if it were possible to accurately model and simulate the physical makeup of a particular human brain, put it into a accurate starting state that matches a real person, then input the correct stimulus into that system that represents particular environmental factors, then that simulation should, beyond reasonable doubt, make the same decision as the person would make.


In that case, if all our best understanding leads to the logical conclusion that it is theoretically (though not practically) possible for a machine to calculate with 100% accuracy, the decisions that you make with your free will, then free will is indeed an illusion. You don't have control, merely the illusion of control.


The argument against becomes a simple case of blind belief: I believe I have free will, I believe that science doesn't fully understand the nature of human behaviour and so I can just blindly believe in this thing that theoretically can't exist - it makes me happier to believe in it that to accept the alternative 		2011-05-20 15:00:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

^^^

yeah... what he said!

(thank you for putting it in much better terms than I have managed to) 		2011-05-20 15:08:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

We are simply making a series of "Judgement Calls" based on all of the pre-existing factors that have led us up to this point.

I would agree that for many decisions we are making a series of Judgement Calls. I choose not to get wet and thus step around the puddle based upon my experience of either being wet, muddy or both. A small child might go for it because they don't care if they are all wet and muddy.

However, there are some decisions that those judgement calls all seemingly level out. Like when I can't figure out what to have for dinner. I have exercised all my options and dislike them all equally. A judgement call would seem to call me back to square one or a small subset of favorite foods, but at times I want nothing, but I am very hungry.

Now I can rely on my girlfriend and choose to go along with her decision, but often times she is just as clueless about where to go so we really do have to sort it out and make a conscious choice. Is that not freewill? ..and like my example above at McDonalds, what do I get when I get there?

Like just last week.. same scenario. We both were hungry and neither of us had any ideas. We are still in the middle of moving so we are eating out quite a bit. She brought up such and such place where I love the burgers, but I didn't feel like one since I had a burger the past 2 nights. Everything on the menu looked great, but I did finally make a decision and it wasn't one I normally would ever choose. If I choose to accept a suggestion by a server or my girlfriend if helping me to decide?

I'd personally like to think I can have anything on the menu and I can. Sometimes I pick random stuff just to try it.. You can argue that pre existing factors of already trying everything else leads me to that next choice, but if there are 10 things I have not tried and each look great? I certainly think that levels the pre existing factors quite a bit. ..however I do have the choice of just picking something else I have had before and like. The choice is simply not made yet.

Sorta like Schr?dinger's cat. One can argue that the cat is both alive and dead as we don't yet know the outcome, but once the experiment is set in motion, Real Truth is inside the box and already happened. We can't undead the cat if it died, we simply learn the outcome once we peek in the box.		2011-05-20 15:20:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

The McD Scenario

Several factors - outwith your control, will already determine that you will be eating at McDonalds.
Such as A) How Hungry Are You? - B) What have you got in your fridge? C) How close is McD's? D) Do I have enough money for a McD? E) The influence all that advertising has had.

then there's the menu - multiple choice scenarios like this is where it does get difficult to explain the difference between a "Judgement Call" and a true "Freewill Choice" ;
Essentially a judgement call and a freewill choice are nearly indistinguishable. But there will be innumerable Pro's/Con's judgements happening in an almost instantaneous manner... the difficulty in explaining it is in the complex nature of the system we are trying to explain... essentially a chaotic system.
We are talking about all of those electrical impulses running through the neurological make up of your mind leading you to an eventual decision.
But freewill is simply what it feels like to occupy a human mind - your decision will be based more on what your body wants (FOOD!!! ANY FOOD!!! JUST GIMME SOME FOOD!!!) - than on what your consious mind wants (I'M SICK OF MCDONALDS!).

The illusion of freewill is brought about by the evolutionary trait of being able to analyse our own thought process - but doesn;t mean that the thought process is the product of freewill - actually it's the other way around... the illusion of freewill is a consequence of the thought process.		2011-05-20 15:40:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

I see your point, but I choose not to agree. 2011-05-20 15:45:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

Free Will does exist. i can go to your home and stab any of you, i can stab my self, i can rob a bank, i can build an atom bomb with the right materials, i can jump, i can talk and i could even fly if i want to, i just need an airplane. thats free will. but if you choose to use your free will in a negative way you may just go to jail, simple as that.2011-05-20 15:45:00

Author:
Charlemagne
Posts: 513

Ever seen the movie "yes man"? Proof we can decide against our instincts.

Also:
http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/data/roadbike/500/obvious_troll5r0.jpg


The issue of existentialism vs sentience has been argued in far more professional means. To put it simply, if human behavior was so predictable the world would have been taken over by now with no home of humanity ever freeing itself, because those in charge could predict every move made by other humans and thwart them. As it stands, this doesnt happen, because human nature is extremely unpredictable due to free will. Humans arent robots that operate off a predetermined set of instincts. We can reason and make complex decision, solve problems in different ways from one another, communicate ideas, and so on, and if need be, completely defy our instincts to do something we normally wouldn't do. [/thread]		2011-05-20 15:59:00

Author:
the Ion Pulsar
Posts: 172

human nature is extremely unpredictable due to free will.

Or due to the excessive complexity of the human brain, that we do not have the means to simulate. Doesn't mean we have free will...		2011-05-20 16:17:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Or due to the excessive complexity of the human brain, that we do not have the means to simulate. Doesn't mean we have free will...

So that purple flower.. totally the logical thing to do then? 		2011-05-20 16:23:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

Free Will does exist. i can go to your home and stab any of you, i can stab my self, i can rob a bank, i can build an atom bomb with the right materials, i can jump, i can talk and i could even fly if i want to, i just need an airplane. thats free will. but if you choose to use your free will in a negative way you may just go to jail, simple as that.

The only way for you to prove that you do indeed have freewill to that extent would be to make good on your words.
You wouldn't be able to just sit down and build an atom bomb - even if you did have all the right materials - because you lack the knowledge on exactly how to build a nuclear reactor. All the freewill in the world won't make up for the fact that you don't know how to do something.
Similarly - the physical laws of the universe prevent you from simply taking flight - or from jumping above a certain height.

As for randomly stabbing people or yourself, your "Judgement Making Software" in your brain would (hopefully) prevent you from doing that. Same with robbing a bank. The consequences of those actions (should) prohibit you from doing it - unless your judgement is somehow skewed (such as desperately needing cash - or hating someone to the point of blind aggression - to stab a stranger randomly would indicate psychosis)
You are still responsible for the judgement calls that you make - but that doesn't mean that you came to the decision through "freewill" - even if it felt like you did within your own mind.

For instance... every day I get up and go to work - despite my "freewill" choice being to stay in bed and play LBP. My judgement making software stops me from making that decision, because I know the outcome would be - I'll get fired - slip behind on the rent - lose my house. So instead I get up and go to work... something I hate doing. If it were 'really' down to freewill - we would all be able to do whatever we wanted to do - rather than what we "have" to do.		2011-05-20 16:43:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

Once I reach a computer, I'll proceed to band my head against this proverbial brick wall of philosophical pseudopsychology, but until then I am just REALLY glad that I can finally post this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mEzgc_ne60
((note: song is of little relevance to argument, it's for the novelty of it ))		2011-05-20 17:03:00

Author:
Astrosimi
Posts: 2046

I should point out that making a choice, and succeeding (or failing) to follow through with that choice, are two different issues.
For convenience, most people will voluntarily limit their choices to what is categorized as possible, beneficial, or socially-acceptable.

By definition, a choice is never made in total vacuum. Some factor must be considered when making a choice, otherwise the "decision" is nothing more than random chance. These factors include such things as upbringing, mood, time of day, experience, knowledge, neural activity, etc.

I don't believe in the concept of freewill in the sense that, if I were to go back to an exact point in time, I know that I would always make the same decision, based on the fact that none of the factors that led to my decision would have changed. However this ultimately doesn't change much, since that exact set of factors will only ever exist at one point in time. A similar set of factors may come along, with a similar choice to make, but the choice may be different or exactly the same; we have no way of knowing.

Ironically, I'm a strong proponent of the idea that our will can be applied to overcome most of the mental, emotional and physical limitations we impose on ourselves (not to be confused with limitations that are purely outside of our control).

Anyway, hope this all makes some sense to anybody else but me. Just my 2 cents. 		2011-05-20 17:57:00

Author:
Gilgamesh
Posts: 2536

The concept of free will is largely predicated on the notion that consciousness is somehow not subject to the laws of physics.2011-05-20 18:58:00

Author:
roux-
Posts: 379

I don't understand how this is even a question. Isn't it obvious freewill doesn't exist?2011-05-20 19:09:00

Author:
Ayneh
Posts: 2454

Well I can't find a clear definition by anyone here what free will is but here's my deductions:

If something can be controlled by factors it can be explained in terms of the factors.
Free will cannot be explained therefore it is not controlled by factors

-Problems are reliant on factors

You need to be 'low on energy' to be hungry, therefore energy is a factor of whether you are hungry

-Choices are all possible solutions to a problem
-Choices available are limited by factors

So you cannot choose to eat when you have nothing to eat even though eating is a solution.

-A solution alters factors to eliminate problems
-The factors a solution can alter are limited by factors
-Therefore the problems a solution can fix are limited by the factors of the problem

So while eating may be able to solve the problem of hunger it can't fix a blown fuse, eating does not alter factors that would remove the problem of a blown fuse.

-An action of free will is not limited by factors
( This is what seems to be the general idea, if this isn't your definition then my argument is invalid)

So therefore we could always choose to do an action that was initiated by free will as it is always available so we could eat a burger without having a burger.

Additionally if this is true then if eating were an act of free will then it would be able to fix a blown fuse since it would not be limited by factors that would control the factors that it alters; so it could alter all factors or none.

To be honest I can't tell when I step into gibberish territory because free will is just so abstract to be I cannot comprehend how it works. If you have a clear definition of what free will is then let me know.		2011-05-20 19:41:00

Author:
Shermzor
Posts: 1330

I'll agree that when it comes to freewill the waters are really muddled. I shall concede that all your points are valid. Honestly, at this point, there is no real way of telling whether we are 'set on rails', so to speak, because it is impossible to recreate someone's attitudes and life from scratch and see if, at some point, one of their choices deviates.

However, I do not think it is proper to assume that EVERY situation is dependent of external factors. This is compounded when we insert Chaos theory into the equation, which states that some events can be defined as random due to the entropic nature of the universe.

There is really neither, if you think about it. The thought process can be defined simultaneously as freewill and not as freewill. However, to imply that there is no freewill is to imply we really don't exist at all, since thought would be a mere biological process akin to digestion or breathing, and therefore what constitutes our sentience is not really there and therefore we are not sentient - this is untrue.

But what about the abstract thoughts that are devoid of factors? This very discussion is one said train of thought. This post-conventional thought, outside of the physical realm, wouldn't even have originated at any time if we are to assume that only environmental and social factors lead to thought (which is the dominant psychological theory). The act of developing a theory of freewill, and subsequently a theory that we really don't control ourselves at all, would involve cognition, and therefore, we must have some freewill, even if our actions are predominantly influenced by our external factors. Also, what about original thought? Fiction, or art? These are too complex to be completely influenced by external factors.		2011-05-20 22:23:00

Author:
Astrosimi
Posts: 2046

If you wanted to be an idiot and get arrested you could, if you wanted to insult all your friends you could, if you wanted to run up to a person you've hated almost as long as you've lived and hug them you could, if you wanted to become a builder instead of going to university you could. Do you see where I'm going with this? Free will does exist, look around, it's called impulse. Maybe a "logical route" is set for you but if you wanted, you could make your life better or worse. Just saying. 2011-05-20 22:37:00

Author:
abyssalassassin
Posts: 717

If you wanted to be an idiot and get arrested you could, if you wanted to insult all your friends you could, if you wanted to run up to a person you've hated almost as long as you've lived and hug them you could, if you wanted to become a builder instead of going to university you could...

So why haven't you?

And yes Astrosimi I cannot say everything is dependant of external factors; I am of the belief that we may live in a non-deterministic universe but that I will have no concious part in changing its course.		2011-05-20 23:00:00

Author:
Shermzor
Posts: 1330

Not sure if it was clear that my argument was for the general thread and not necessarily targeting your own In any case, at this point the argument is moot, no matter which side is right, heheh.2011-05-20 23:03:00

Author:
Astrosimi
Posts: 2046

Not sure if it was clear that my argument was for the general thread and not necessarily targeting your own In any case, at this point the argument is moot, no matter which side is right, heheh.

I wasn't sure if it was clear I was agreeing with you 		2011-05-20 23:05:00

Author:
Shermzor
Posts: 1330

No, it was, I just thought you were responding to me because you'd thought I'd was responding to you and so you felt it necessary to clarify that your argument was in agreement with my own.

Awkward moments like the above is why my Post-per-day count is so low 		2011-05-20 23:46:00

Author:
Astrosimi
Posts: 2046

Everything in the universe can be measured by countless equations. Someone's actions included. But when we take a living being into account, the equations that define his destiny depend on who he is and what he does. So, he has some sort of control over his destiny, or over the equations.

Also, if someone has zero free will, he might as well not be a living being. Such as a rock and a computer program, who are subordinated to the equations that come from other beings.

Either that or we are all controlled by an omnipotent free will called "universe".

God I'm bored.		2011-05-21 00:06:00

Author:
gdn001
Posts: 5891

Well here's a simple way of understanding it:

If everything you do has a reason, you do not have free will.

If you are capable of doing things that transcend reason, you are a GOD! 		2011-05-21 00:10:00

Author:
comishguy67
Posts: 849

True, but that's because I'm me, every personality has a different amount of free will in them. Me being quite logical and quite shy, means that personally my free will is limited, someone more gregarious and/or dumb has more free will due to the fact they may act stupidly/without reason/to see the reaction on some one's face etc etc. It's not the fact that there isn't free will in the world but more-so the fact that it is your choice to apply it to situations and if you don't want to, you don't have to.2011-05-21 00:20:00

Author:
abyssalassassin
Posts: 717

my lack of free will is not letting me participate in this discussion2011-05-21 01:02:00

Author:
darcyh
Posts: 191

...wut

I seriously can't grasp this concept. The more you talk about how we don't have free will, the more it sounds like we have free will. xD		2011-05-21 01:14:00

Author:
Frinklebumper
Posts: 941

Yeah, the more you look at it, the more paradoxical it becomes. This is one of those conundrums that you can't really find an answer to.2011-05-21 01:16:00

Author:
Astrosimi
Posts: 2046

I've thought a lot about this and I've come to my own conclusion that it's really like the Placebo effect. Basically, if you truly believe it to be true, it is, while if you don't believe it, it's not true. Some people can see it as us being controlled like we control Sims in the video game and someone else is controlling us. Life is a gift, and just because you're alive doesn't mean you're living. Whether or not you're under control, always remember that you're thinking about your decision first, and only get to live once (depending on your beliefs). If you go to heaven, sweet. If you go to hell, that sucks. Right now you have the opportunity to make your life what you want, so do that. I see it as you can either go out and live your life to the fullest knowing that you are making your own decisions, or live your life in fear thinking that you're under control.2011-05-21 01:24:00

Author:
WoodburyRaider
Posts: 1651

and someone else is controlling us

There are more options here than just 'free will' and 'being controlled.'

Consciousness isn't special. It is a function of neurons firing. It does not take place in some magical alternate dimension; it is subject to the same physical laws as dropping a rock or the heart of a star.

By that token, given a sufficiently omniscient observer (what some people would call God, I suppose), it is very easy to see that 'free will' is an illusion created by the appearance of enormous choice in any given situation. We think we are choosing to have a ham sandwich instead of turkey, kiss that girl instead of that boy, turn left instead of right. In reality, the universe is (again, from the standpoint of a sufficiently omniscient observer) much more like a pool table; hit this ball at that angle with this velocity and it will go there. Chaos theory, while fascinating, is largely only a matter of filling the gaps of our imperfect knowledge with 'because.'		2011-05-21 01:37:00

Author:
roux-
Posts: 379

I agree 100% with the fact that there is no free will.
Also, one of my favourite songs Freewill by Rush.
I just want to point out a few things.

A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive

Its saying that everyone does everything for a reson, and the "strings" are all the factors, that make the desiding for us, and none of it can be controled.

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate.

Just more lines to say how we are controled by these factors

You have opened my eyes, this is a very good example of your "thery"		2011-05-21 02:23:00

Author:
Unknown User

From my observations of the world around me, I believe that somehow, determinism and free will are both able to exist in this universe at the same time. Apparently this makes me a "compatibilist". Though I don't feel I can give a satisfactory answer as to how. I think Hume has an interesting point when he says it comes down to definitions. If, by free will, you mean that human beings can act without a cause, then the answer is no as far as I can tell. If; however, the question is can human beings act without compulsion, then the answer is yes.2011-05-21 03:17:00

Author:
Patronus21
Posts: 266

What about Love? Isn't that the very definition of free-will?2011-05-21 03:21:00

Author:
wolverine_2008
Posts: 304

What about Love? Isn't that the very definition of free-will?
Not if it's already determined who you are going to fall in love with, though I'm simply playing devil's advocate here.		2011-05-21 03:26:00

Author:
Patronus21
Posts: 266

What about Love? Isn't that the very definition of free-will?

Yet I thought you couldn't "choose" who to fall in love with... it just happens?
If I knew love was a freewill choice then I wouldn't have fallen for a girl I could never have


As cold as it seems, "love" is just an evolutionary trait to keep a mating pair together to nurture their offspring.
I'm just an old fashioned romantic



It's been a fascinating debate so far - well done all involved 		2011-05-21 07:37:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

So did Jesse actually make his own decision to take the whale back to the sea, or did fate make him do it?

I'm confused now.		2011-05-21 09:07:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Yet I thought you couldn't "choose" who to fall in love with... it just happens?
If I knew love was a freewill choice then I wouldn't have fallen for a girl I could never have

I tried a few times to love a girl that wasn't interested in me. I'm going with it was their freewill that thought otherwise. 		2011-05-21 16:33:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

Illusionists like Derren Brown can put this to great effect - where he has two envelopes, one full of money the other empty - and can even tell the person "The money is in Envelope B" - but because he knows how to manipulate their judgement call - they will 'always' pick envelope A".

what if someoen chooses envelope B		2011-05-21 18:48:00

Author:
Unknown User

Freewill is an illusion created by your mind.
It's like imagining an Elephant - in your mind you can see the elephant, it's large, it's grey, it has a trunk... it is the essense of Elephant. But that Elephant does not actually exist, it is simply a construct of your mind.
Similarly, Freewill is simply a construct of the mind that we use to convince ourselves that our judgement call (based on the pre-existing set of conditions) is our own choice and therefore something we would want to do.

Is it bad that my elephant didn't have a trunk until you mentioned it?

As for the discussion, it is an interesting concept. If it was true, who makes the choice? Is the future right until the end of time predetermined? I always saw time as what we make of it. There is no future, only 'now', which would mean time-travel to the future impossible because the furthest we could go is right now. This goes completly against that. Interesting.		2011-05-21 21:09:00

Author:
kirbyman62
Posts: 1893

Actually - you are quite wrong.
The decision for me to post specifically on this website - specifically about this topic - is based on a myriad of pre-existing conditions which I played no part in.
Such as the discovery of electricity - leading to the eventual invention of computers, leading to the ineternet - leading eventually to LBPcentral.com.
Then there is the pre-existing factors of me being a creative type person - which I have a seeming genetic predisposition - making LBP one of my favourite games.
Then there is my argumentative nature - to do with my upbringing ;
Then there is the desire not to do work and instead post on forums: a judgement call that posting on forums will be more fun than doing work.

So a combination of environmental, genetic, and pre-existing factors such as upbringing - all determine that I will be posting this very post - and a similar set of circumstances dictate that you would post what you posted, in defense of freewill.

But at no point does "Freewill" need to enter into it.
Freewill has yet to be proven to exist.

Also consider - is it only humans that have freewill? - How do chimpanzees decide which banana to eat? - how do dogs choose what foodstuffs to eat? how do ameobas decide what direction to swim in?


We are simply making a series of "Judgement Calls" based on all of the pre-existing factors that have led us up to this point.

Then how can you correct an ominous pseudoscience by renaming it? Clearly, it doesn't exist, so neither would your theory. So your thinking of "Judgement Calls" is a ludicrous as freewill itself; it's the same concept, but under a different name. It's called determinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism), which both that and freewill fall into the argument of incompatibilism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incompatibilism), which promptly denies either one of the two (or both). So, when you look at it, one side of this argument is as irrelevant as the other. So, if free will does not exist, then neither would Judgement Calls (or determinism for that matter).

True, there are always factors and variables when trying to comprehend various aspects. But how they're interpreted is an entirely different story. The mindset of each individual life form that'd encounter the situation presented before them will vary immensely between each mind. The independent variable (the thought process) is so anonymous that it's near impossible to crunch into a science. No two individuals are alike, human or otherwise.

And in the end, there's no point in arguing this if there's no possibility of indefinitely proving one or the other. Whether it be a choice pre-determined by various factors or decided upon independently, a choice is a choice; either way, it's made. And if they don't want to believe, they just don't want to believe. There's no actual freedoms or factors involved. It just happens.

So how can you openly say I'm wrong when you're in the same situation? And, if these points I've brought up mean anything, then that means both of us are wrong (or one of us are right, depending on the individual).		2011-05-22 03:30:00

Author:
Outlaw-Jack
Posts: 5757

When I said you were flat wrong, I was meaning that of course the present is absolutely dependant on the past. The pre-existig conditions are the most important factor in determining the future state of something.

& I don't mean that there is no freewill, so therefore our lives are predetermined. I don't believe in 'fate'.
But the future is predictable to a certain extent - if you know enough about the present. Take the 3 to 5 day weather forecast for example. Weather is a chaotic system, so can only be predicted (right now) with a certain degree of accuracy - but as we understand more about the system, the better we are at predicting it.

What it means to have no freewill and live your life based on a series of judgement calls is that we are a constantly collapsing wave function (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function_collapse). Like schrodinger's cat, you cannot know the state of the cat until opening the box... you cannot know the state of the future until we have got there. You can "imagine" a future, but how that future plays out may completely go against your "freewill" choice - so the choice will be adapted (showing that it is not freewill, but a series of judgement calls - ie; my "choice" didn't work out, so I will make this new 'choice' based on what has happened).
And as the state, position and momentum, of everything in the universe is dependant on it's state just prior to the measurement - then it follows that we are moving through time, at each moment making a series of judgement calls (move left or move right, jump out the way of that bus, eat now because I'm hungry, eat later because I'm busy etc) - rather than deciding how to act out of freewill.

It's helpfull to think of things in evolutionary terms.
An ameoba decides which way to move/what to ingest based on the outside stimulus - tiny chemical changes in the surrounding environment dictating which way it will move. Not *that* long ago in evolutionary history, we were also ameobas.
As we evolved, we evolved more complex sensors to detect what is surrouding us. like eyes, ears and noses etc. With these, we could detect other changes in our environment to a greater extent (it smells like there might be food over there) - and we would use this information to inform our movement/course of action.
Fast forward a few million years... to the proto-chimpazee that eventually evolved into a human. This chimp spent alot of time in the water (why we lost our fur) - and ate alot of sea-food (why we have a bigger brain). This idea that we are the chimp that tried to walk back into the ocean is also supported by the fact that new born human infants have a natural instict to swim, where-as our closest evolutionary cousins do not. This chimp-like animal developed some new ablities thanks to it's increased brain size... the abilty to plan "in it's head". The evolution of the nest also helped with this - as previously we would have to test all of our plans in the 'real world' - where the consequenses of a wrong decision would be death - now, in a safe comfortable nest we had the abilty to 'test out' differet behaviors (animals with "play" behaviours are more intelligent than other animals). What we developed was the "Nest in our heads" - the ability to test out different behaviors and outcomes as a mental construct rather than a physical reality.
The "freewill" software we developed was very handy for predicting the future events of certain actions - so that we could plan our actions (make pre-judgements) before actually acting them out. We could imagine what would happen if we walked up to the alpha-male of the group and stole his banana (the alpha-male will probably beat me to death) and adjust our actions accordingly. Rather than steal the alpha-males banana, you'd "choose" to go and eat something else.
Now would you say that that proto-human chimp was exersizing "freewill" in deciding that if he wants to survive, then stealing the alpha-males banana isn't a good idea? Or was it a sound judgement call, based on the surrounding environment/pre-existing conditions?


Also, your judgements can be impaired by environmental factors - such as a lack of oxygen or ingestion of chemicals, making you behave in "strange ways" - surely a mind that has freewill wouldn't be so dependant on such base chemical requirements?		2011-05-22 07:56:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

That's random chance isn't it...

Or is it?
Actually it isn't "that" random.
Where you stop and where you point, is again - decided by predetermined conditions... such as the starting point of you spinning... how long you can spin for without feeling dizzy - how long you can hold up your arm before it gets tired... all of these factors will affect the "end point" of where you are pointing.

But even so - how is randomly spinning and pointing an exersize in "freewill" - it's an exersize in randomness... as random as rolling a dice.
Do you have any "freewill" in determining what your dice roll will be?

Over-all I am quite convinced about your theory, but if you did have a ticket and someone asked you if you did, you could lie and say, "No i don't actually" for no peticular reason. Wouldn't that be free will?		2011-05-22 17:42:00

Author:
Denim360
Posts: 482

I'm going to try and mix up an argument which hasn't been answered yet and probably never will, odds on that this goes badly... how would freewill be affected if you had a time machine? Because if everything is already set for you and you could suddenly change them how would it work? Would the universe implode or somethin'? 2011-05-22 21:37:00

Author:
abyssalassassin
Posts: 717

No, abyssal. Time has already happened. If I were to get in a time machine today and go back to yesterday and tell you that I had a time machine, that already happened yesterday.2011-05-22 21:45:00

Author:
roux-
Posts: 379

Well, that's the thing about freewill... it's a postulation about another possible reality.
ie: What if I turned left instead of right!

But the fact is, in the event, you will only occupy one of those realities. You "either" turned left, or you turned right.
It is not possible for you to occupy a time-line where a different choice was made... such things are imaginary.
Again, this is to do with our evolutionary software hardwired into our brains that allowed us to postulate on possible futures - the "Nest in our Heads" software - we are capable of imagining a possible future and then making a judgement call over which course of action will most likely lead to the desired outcome. And the software works backwards - we can look back on decisions we made that led to undesired outcomes and postulate what alternate decisions we could've made to improve the outcome in our favour. This "imaginary" sensory information then informs what judgements we make in the future.

Still no need to have freewill involved at any point... we are just acting on our insticts... we just have highly evolved instincts. And being a highly evolved ape - that makes sense.

That's where we get this notion of "freewill" - we imagine that we 'could've' made a different choice and therefore had a different outcome... when of course we 'couldn't' have made a different choice - precicely because we didn't make that alternate choice. The idea that we 'could' make a different choice is to do with our prediction software in our minds.		2011-05-23 09:16:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

The issue is moot, because whether the interpretation of our general knowledge and view of the world is either a biological function akin to breathing or digestion, or whether it's an excersize of free-form brain functions is up to the person's personal philosophy or worldview. You can see it as either or.

I think to assume that we are devoid of freewill due to our existence within a linear timeline situation (Unrelated: While our perspective of time is linear, quantum theories on the effects on time travel are as of yet all inconclusive, so do not assume linearity) is a bit of a nonsense statement (sorry, couldn't find better word to describe it, I mean no offense). Not that it's necessarily wrong, but freewill implies having had the chance of choosing an alternate, not necessarily that it did happen.

I literally just received this in an email. It's got a lot of weight behind it, but even should you decide to ignore it, it's still pretty interesting.
Dr. Kaku Says the Uncertainty Principle Disproves Determinism (Ergo, Proves Freewill) (http://bigthink.com/ideas/37871?utm_source=Dr.+Kaku%27s+Universe+Newsletter+ Subscribers&utm_campaign=f081322d22-Dr_Kaku_Newsletter_May_23_2011&utm_medium=email)		2011-05-23 23:05:00

Author:
Astrosimi
Posts: 2046

Still playing devil's advocate here, but how does that prove free will? It disproves predeterminism, but it's absolutely a case of clutching at straws to say that random chance and uncertainty constitutes free will.. Whether your actions are predetermined or controlled in realtime by a universal dice-rolling game, you still don't have free will in either of those cases.2011-05-23 23:31:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I think we have free will. Take this as an example, people who kill themselves. That goes against every single survival instinct. So why do it? If we are controlled by our instincts and our available choices at the moment. Why not seek help and try to make a better life for yourself? Or how could they make the choice of killing themselves if it goes against your instincts??? HMMMM?!?!?!?!? You would have to CONSCIOUSLY override them and CHOOSE to do it. Another example. Some people have the best lives, everything is perfect for them, but some of them go bad. Shouldn't all that happiness during their childhood make them a happy person?? Why would they CHOOSE to do that?HMMMMMM!!! Some people simply choose to do it. I do admit however that almost all of our choices are influenced by past experiences. Oh and btw I'm right and you're wrong...yeah 2011-05-24 00:51:00

Author:
Amigps
Posts: 564

I think we have free will. Take this as an example, people who kill themselves. That goes against every single survival instinct. So why do it? If we are controlled by our instincts and our available choices at the moment. Why not seek help and try to make a better life for yourself? Or how could they make the choice of killing themselves if it goes against your instincts??? HMMMM?!?!?!?!? You would have to CONSCIOUSLY override them and CHOOSE to do it. Another example. Some people have the best lives, everything is perfect for them, but some of them go bad. Shouldn't all that happiness during their childhood make them a happy person?? Why would they CHOOSE to do that?HMMMMMM!!! Some people simply choose to do it. I do admit however that almost all of our choices are influenced by past experiences. Oh and btw I'm right and you're wrong...yeah

Like I was saying, personality vaguely affect freewill, f.e after they were born, likely choices would be calculated for them, if they were optimistic and always happy they wouldn't even think of suicide, but whereas if they're more shy and less optimistic that choice would be already decided for them. So instincts like that can be overrided but the average person wouldn't do it.		2011-05-24 01:33:00

Author:
abyssalassassin
Posts: 717

I think we have free will. Take this as an example, people who kill themselves. That goes against every single survival instinct. So why do it? If we are controlled by our instincts and our available choices at the moment. Why not seek help and try to make a better life for yourself? Or how could they make the choice of killing themselves if it goes against your instincts???

People can get pretty **** depressed, serious depression disables the person such that they cannot get self help because they just shut down. Humans are not perfect and can be broken to behave in ways that are not suitable for survival.		2011-05-24 15:33:00

Author:
Shermzor
Posts: 1330

What I find interesting with most people is that they believe "they" make choices at all.

Your mind creates everything you perceive and everything you think about...including your personality.

If you "like" something, it's because you mind has a chemical chain reaction in your brain that creates endorphins. The same for if you're sad or in pain or love. It's all chemicals.

The only things that make us different from each other really is our genes, experiences, and sexual preferences(and that is not limited to just whatever gender you are attracted too. A lot of what you do is sexually motivated according to Freud.)

The "you" that you say you are is simply a result of information collected from your brain.

The universe just isn't the magical place everyone wants it to be. Anything in it can measured and calculated.

Why can't human beings, just be an extremely complicated math equation?

Why do we have to have free will and souls and spirits and anything else supernatural?

:		2011-05-28 23:36:00

Author:
comishguy67
Posts: 849

Freewill isn't a necessarily supernatural concept. Just throwing that out there.

An equation to predict human behavior would, for one, need to have all the factors that run the universe, and add in how humans will react to this (which is impossible since said reactions depends on previous factors, and if you're on the freewill side, aren't predictable at all). This, at the moment, is impossible.

This is why I brought up the Uncertainty Principle video a few posts up. I agree it may not prove Freewill, but it does mean that the motions of the universe are not necessarily predetermined.		2011-05-29 04:38:00

Author:
Astrosimi
Posts: 2046

Freewill isn't a necessarily supernatural concept. Just throwing that out there.

Maybe not but I was speaking very generally. People always tend to claim things they don't understand as "supernatural". I believe "True" free will would have to be for someone who has more advanced tools for comprehension and operation within the universe than logic, reason, and instinct. Therefore, I felt "super"natural was an adequate term.


An equation to predict human behavior would, for one, need to have all the factors that run the universe, and add in how humans will react to this (which is impossible since said reactions depends on previous factors, and if you're on the freewill side, aren't predictable at all). This, at the moment, is impossible.

This is why I brought up the Uncertainty Principle video a few posts up. I agree it may not prove Freewill, but it does mean that the motions of the universe are not necessarily predetermined.

I'm not sure what predetermination of the UNIVERSE has to do with FREE WILL.

And I'm sure that we assume electrons are unpredictable because we don't yet fully understand the motions of it. But doesn't mean it's impossible for us to learn.

We don't even have the tools to actually LOOK at an electron. I'm sure we will understand it better in the future.

But, it's almost the same thing as claiming things are supernatural just because WE can't explain it. You're right about us not understanding all the factors of the universe and thus unable to come to any undeniable conclusions.

But as far as free will goes in humans, I don't think it exist. And yes, maybe it's impossible to understand human actions now, but in time I'm sure we can figure it out.		2011-05-29 06:41:00

Author:
comishguy67
Posts: 849


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