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Every Serious Creator Should Get Playstation Plus
Archive: 68 posts
| So i was creating today, and it was just another normal day--until my PS3 crashes and Flashes the infamous "Yellow Light of Death". This is equivalent to the Xbox's "Red Ring of Death" and its basically impossible to turn on. Im not sure if my PS3 is under warranty, but even if it is, i wont send it in fear Sony will delete all of my data. After 7550 minutes of create, i face a very serious problem, i dont know how exactly i will transfer data, when i cant even turn the PS3 on. And i was just thinking, all this would have been solved if i had Playstation plus online saves. If you guys are doing big projects, make sure you have some way to back your data up with other means than the PS3, and do it often. | 2011-04-09 17:53:00 Author: Rpg Maker  Posts: 877 |
| huh? how does Playstation Plus help with backing up your data? i don't get it... | 2011-04-09 18:13:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz  Posts: 4261 |
You must try to recover your PS3 with the Gilksy method, then transfer the data between the PS3, that's the only way...and anyway, you could always backup your stuff online and locked.  | 2011-04-09 18:23:00 Author: OmegaSlayer  Posts: 5112 |
| huh? how does Playstation Plus help with backing up your data? i don't get it... PS Plus comes with an online backup. So you can back up your data online and get it back later with your PSN. | 2011-04-09 18:24:00 Author: Chump  Posts: 1712 |
| Allows you to backup saves externally. Obviously it's much cheaper to just load back-up saves on to a USB stick. | 2011-04-09 18:24:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193 |
| Allows you to backup saves externally. Obviously it's much cheaper to just load back-up saves on to a USB stick. Yeah, a decent size (1GB) memory stick costs around ?6, and that's a one-time purchace. | 2011-04-09 18:41:00 Author: kirbyman62  Posts: 1893 |
| Agreeing with those saying to just save stuff to USB sticks. There's no advantage either have except that a USB stick is evidently cheaper. | 2011-04-09 18:45:00 Author: Moonface  Posts: 310 |
| huh? how does Playstation Plus help with backing up your data? i don't get it... Yes, it utilizes cloud servers to allow your saves to be accessible online. The one advantage to doing this is you're not limited to carrying all that data around a physical device or storing them on your PS3's hard drive. | 2011-04-09 19:28:00 Author: schm0  Posts: 1239 |
| I know it's nice to think, but it's not like teh clowd can really do much yet. Thanks though, I think I'll go backup my stuff now. | 2011-04-09 19:39:00 Author: ThisDudeRufus Posts: 170 |
| Yes, it utilizes cloud servers to allow your saves to be accessible online. The one advantage to doing this is you're not limited to carrying all that data around a physical device or storing them on your PS3's hard drive. I play mostly offline. and i have a USB stick, lots of them. so it would not be all that useful to me. but it's nice to know about the plus thing. thanks guys. *mew | 2011-04-09 20:17:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261 |
It's lucky and fantastic that I just happened to buy the only PS3 sort that is immune to YLOD.  80 gb. | 2011-04-09 20:24:00 Author: AbdiHMA  Posts: 86 |
| I had an 80 GB..... https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=23121-Red-flashing-light-of-eventual-death...-and-now-YLOD Vortex had and 80 GB.....https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=49681-GAH!-YLOD-Much-sadness.-%28&highlight=ylod | 2011-04-09 20:29:00 Author: Morgana25  Posts: 5983 |
| I had an 80 GB..... https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=23121-Red-flashing-light-of-eventual-death...-and-now-YLOD Vortex had and 80 GB.....https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=49681-GAH!-YLOD-Much-sadness.-%28&highlight=ylod Interesting, so you were able to transfer data, even when its broken? I was thinking about just taking it to Best Buy because the Gilksy method seems kinda risky. As for USB's yes they are cheaper, though still, something can happen to it. If you got the money, you might want to consider having your data online--you never know when YLOD could hit. It caught me when i was creating, and i didnt even have a chance to save, when i just going to a few moments later. | 2011-04-09 21:02:00 Author: Rpg Maker Posts: 877 |
| well i heard this before. if you stick in the freezer for 30 mins you can get it to work again for at least one last time. not sure how well it works. but i've seen some other people talk about doing it. and no I'm not gonna buy PS plus. to much money for something i don't have a use for. and no nothing can happen to my USB sticks. as they never get lost, plus i keep the data also backed up on my PC, so it don't matter even if something happened to one. | 2011-04-09 21:20:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261 |
I have my old PS3's HD working as a backup, so meh.  | 2011-04-09 21:30:00 Author: gdn001  Posts: 5891 |
| I couldn't get my data to transfer before the old one died on me. Luckily I had enough time to backup to a flash drive. | 2011-04-09 21:34:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983 |
| No, any serious creator should back up teir data to an external drive, no really a need for PS+. | 2011-04-09 21:53:00 Author: Silverleon  Posts: 6707 |
| No, any serious creator should back up teir data to an external drive, no really a need for PS+. Yup. That's how I handle it. No need for other methods. | 2011-04-09 22:05:00 Author: smasher  Posts: 641 |
| It's unfortunate that backing up isn't a well known ability and "officially talked about" safe guard. This ought to be one of the first things the game goes over when you create your first custom made item... with big red flashing text on your screen screaming at you how important it is to back up to an external device of some sort. I've seen far too many people loose their hard work because of a cheaply made piece of technology. My only constant reminder to backup is that horrible CRACKING/SNAPPING sound my PS3 makes when I turn it on, while it's on, or a few minutes after I turn it off. As for PS+... no thanks. I have better things to waste my money on. | 2011-04-09 22:38:00 Author: Rustbukkit  Posts: 1737 |
| Last month I decided to go for it and buy PS+. I like it so far. I think it seems like a great program. As for the cloud, you only get 150 MB to store stuff on. Also, how do you back up ur files on to a USB flash drive (stick)?? Is it simple?  | 2011-04-10 06:09:00 Author: kabirdsall14  Posts: 180 |
| Yes, it's very simple. Just go to your profile in the XMB press triangle (or square) and select copy. | 2011-04-10 07:32:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193 |
| As for USB's yes they are cheaper, though still, something can happen to it. Once it's on a memory stick, you could put it anywhere. On your computer's hard drive, heck, if you really love Online Storage so much, put it on Google Docs (though I don't entirely know how that works, but I imagine you could). You don't need PS+. | 2011-04-10 16:12:00 Author: kirbyman62 Posts: 1893 |
| I just got my new 320GB slim model in from Sony, and I've been thinking about transferring my stuff. Would it be worth it to get PS Plus for a few months just to copy my saves and everything over? I hear transferring the traditional way can be really time consuming and a little frustrating. I've also just been wanting to check out PS Plus anyways for the pretty good deals on games. | 2011-04-10 16:45:00 Author: Sack-Jake  Posts: 1153 |
| I just got my new 320GB slim model in from Sony, and I've been thinking about transferring my stuff. Would it be worth it to get PS Plus for a few months just to copy my saves and everything over? I hear transferring the traditional way can be really time consuming and a little frustrating. I've also just been wanting to check out PS Plus anyways for the pretty good deals on games. It's not time-consuming at all, just make sure whatever device you have has room on it. If you're copying directly from the PS3 the system will create the necessary directories on the device for you. Keep files where they're put and you'll be fine. | 2011-04-10 17:33:00 Author: schm0 Posts: 1239 |
| I back up my files using my PSP, and I can transfer them to my PC so that works. | 2011-04-10 21:23:00 Author: Ghost  Posts: 114 |
| Thanks, that really helps! I will be backing my files onto my PC and onto an external hard drive/memory stick | 2011-04-11 00:02:00 Author: kabirdsall14 Posts: 180 |
| Yes, it utilizes cloud servers to allow your saves to be accessible online. The one advantage to doing this [PsPlus backup] is you're not limited to carrying all that data around a physical device or storing them on your PS3's hard drive. The other advantage is that save files stored on PsPlus will NOT be locked to the console they were created on. If you transfer your data from one ps3 to another via usb stick, the game treats it like it's copied data from another profile and you're blocked from getting trophies any more, but if you use the ps plus cloud backup, the game treats the save like it belongs on the new ps3. It's actually a pretty big advantage for anybody who cares about trophies or for other games whose save files won't work at all on other systems--I had to start over on Rock Band and a handful of other games when my first ps3 died and Sony gave me a refurb. Still, even with that advantage, I wouldn't pay for PsPlus. Personally, I consider it extortion to make the ONLY method for transferring locked save files a pay service. Save files should be tied to your psn id or just plain freely copyable so that we can transfer files from one system to another without breaking them. It's a dirty trick on Sony's part--one of many they've pulled in the past few years  | 2011-04-11 06:13:00 Author: Sehven  Posts: 2188 |
It's up to the individual game studios whether and how to lock game saves. I lost my 85% Assassin's Creed 2 game save because Ubisoft wouldn't let me back it up when my bluray died.  It's a bit sad that Sony offers a workaround in a payed service only, but then again, 150MB storage isn't free.Anyway, I totally disagree with the original poster's suggestion. People should be backing up with USB sticks anyway. If you want to get PS+, do it for the games you know you'll be getting. When I got it, I already knew I'd be getting some stuff I wanted, that I personally valued at about 35 euros, and I hoped to get my money's worth with a few more LBP packs (there weren't any, but I'm satisfied with Critter Crunch and Stacking). And also beware, if you're cheap like me you won't buy anything outside of PS+ for the duration of the subscription, out of fear that it will be free with PS+ later on. In July I'll finally be getting the Marvel pack | 2011-04-11 11:37:00 Author: Rogar  Posts: 2284 |
| Im afaid it wouldnt it would save your backup levels but not your whole profile. | 2011-04-11 11:59:00 Author: craigmond  Posts: 2426 |
| I use an external hard drive to backup my ps3 only took 1 hour to back everything up and I use a USB flash drive to save all my game files as for PS plus there's nothing much on there I need yet if something really good comes out for it I'll get it. | 2011-04-11 13:33:00 Author: zerotiger99  Posts: 101 |
| By throwing away the game data (the stuff games need on the harddisk to play, not the game saves), I managed to make a complete system backup to a 16GB USB stick, no external drive required. Ofcourse, that still didn't let me transfer my AC2 save to the fixed PS3 Sony sent me. | 2011-04-11 14:29:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284 |
| Still, even with that advantage, I wouldn't pay for PsPlus. Personally, I consider it extortion to make the ONLY method for transferring locked save files a pay service. Save files should be tied to your psn id or just plain freely copyable so that we can transfer files from one system to another without breaking them. It's a dirty trick on Sony's part--one of many they've pulled in the past few years Thy can't tie with PSN, console suppose to work offline without PSN, so it can't relay on PSN | 2011-04-11 14:38:00 Author: Shadowriver  Posts: 3991 |
| If you guys are doing big projects, make sure you have some way to back your data up with other means than the PS3, and do it often. This is the overall big picture of this thread. Having saves online is a great feature--especially if you are already considering PS+, but ultimately im am trying to warn you creators that YLOD is a growing problem for Playstation 3's--especially if you have a lot of the older models. The ps3 will overheat and you wont be able to turn on your system. I had my game off for 10 hours, and it still got me after just an hour of playtime. Its almost random. Creators should be aware of YLOD is just as powerful as the red ring of death. Save your games often people! Even back them up after every 2 or so hours of creating i would say. No one likes having to create things all over again, as i face the probability of having to start over from scratch. | 2011-04-11 15:54:00 Author: Rpg Maker Posts: 877 |
| Thy can't tie with PSN, console suppose to work offline without PSN, so it can't relay on PSN Sure, they can't rely on it, but they can use PSN if the user has it. The whole business of locking game saves for single player is ridiculous anyway, but at least by allowing saves to be used on a different PS3 with the same PSN, normal players aren't affected when their PS3 breaks. | 2011-04-11 16:14:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284 |
| It's a bit sad that Sony offers a workaround in a payed service only, but then again, 150MB storage isn't free. Sure, but why did Sony decide to only make a solution that relies on that storage space? 'Cuz it's a way to squeeze more money out of us. The fact that we can't transfer our own save data from one ps3 that we've paid for to another one that we've paid for is a flaw in their system. Sony chose to fix that flaw in a way that you have to pay extra for which is a dirty trick. By throwing away the game data (the stuff games need on the harddisk to play, not the game saves), I managed to make a complete system backup to a 16GB USB stick, no external drive required...that still didn't let me transfer my AC2 save to the fixed PS3 Sony sent me. I did the same thing when my bluray went out, and, like you, I had save files that didn't work on the refurb Sony sent me. By some happy glitch, my lbp1 profile managed to sneak in (Leerdammer came out while I was waiting for my refurb and when I ran it through the save data to game data utility, it somehow fixed it so it was considered my save instead of a copied one), but several other games didn't (I had to blast through unlocking all the songs in Rock Band 2 'cuz we were having a RB party a few days later). Thy can't tie with PSN, console suppose to work offline without PSN, so it can't relay on PSN Sure, they can't rely on it, but they can use PSN if the user has it. The whole business of locking game saves for single player is ridiculous anyway, but at least by allowing saves to be used on a different PS3 with the same PSN, normal players aren't affected when their PS3 breaks. Exactly. Besides, they're already relying on psn to effect save transfers by making them only available on psn+. All they would have to do is add a save data fixer utility that updates the console ID in the save data. They could set it so that you have to be online for it to work and it would check that you were using the same psn ID before it would let you. Or, better yet, just don't freakin' lock save files? Why do devs have a problem with me sharing save files with people? Save files don't unlock dlc that you haven't paid for, so it can't be used for piracy. All a save file can do is unlock stuff on the disc that you've already paid for. Sometimes it's just not worth the amount of work you have to put in to unlock things in some games (games are supposed to be fun, not work, and I've already paid for all that stuff with my $60--why should I have to pay for it with time too?) and it's nice when somebody else uploads a save file so you can get the goodies without investing the time. | 2011-04-11 20:21:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188 |
| . i hear that if you want your LBP ETC to be able to tell your the real user after you put the data on a new PS3. you had to do something like deactivate your user on your old PS3 first or something. I'd have to look it up to say more about it in detail. *mew | 2011-04-11 20:35:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261 |
| Sure, but why did Sony decide to only make a solution that relies on that storage space? ... Or, better yet, just don't freakin' lock save files? Why do devs have a problem with me sharing save files with people? Yeah, that's exactly my original point. Sony provided a broken save lock system, but those developers are the ones that decided to use it. I can kind of understand if you have a multiplayer ranking like Fat Princess (though there are better solutions), but for a single player experience like AC2 it's silly. By some happy glitch, my lbp1 profile managed to sneak in (Leerdammer came out while I was waiting for my refurb and when I ran it through the save data to game data utility, it somehow fixed it so it was considered my save instead of a copied one) you had to do something like deactivate your user on your old PS3 first or something. I thought that one was to avoid running out of your 5 allowed installs for DLC? My bluray died when LBP already released the backup functions, I had no problem using my old profile on the new system. I did a system backup too, though, so I kind of still had the old user. | 2011-04-11 21:31:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284 |
| There should be a way to "pair" a specific saved game to a PSN account, that way, when you put it on another PS3 with the same account, it recognizes it as your own. | 2011-04-11 21:55:00 Author: gdn001 Posts: 5891 |
| Yeah it would be nice if they'd have set it up so that your psn ID could take your console ID's place in the save data. Obviously they'd have to set it so that it uses your console ID if you don't have a psn ID. I thought that one was to avoid running out of your 5 allowed installs for DLC? My bluray died when LBP already released the backup functions, I had no problem using my old profile on the new system. I did a system backup too, though, so I kind of still had the old user. Hm. Weird. I loaded my old save file into lbp and it gave the "this is a copied save" message, but then I updated to leerdammer and it was fixed. I figured it was an accidental glitch. In any case, the dlc thing is independent of save data so that shouldn't matter. I did a system backup at the time too (same as you, I deleted most of the game data, backed up my video files seperately and then deleted them, and was able to backup the whole system onto a 16g card). | 2011-04-12 02:47:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188 |
| I had an 80 GB..... https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=23121-Red-flashing-light-of-eventual-death...-and-now-YLOD Vortex had and 80 GB.....https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=49681-GAH!-YLOD-Much-sadness.-%28&highlight=ylod My ps3 was an 80gb... Smoothie will be missed... | 2011-04-12 03:00:00 Author: grayspence  Posts: 1990 |
| The fact that we can't transfer our own save data from one ps3 that we've paid for to another one that we've paid for is a flaw in their system. Umm. System transfer works just fine. Y'know, I'm wonding if, as long as both accounts are associated with the same PSN login info, whether you can cleanly transfer a profile anyway. When my fat PS3 YLOD'd, I bought a new slim, created a new local user account on that, associated it with the same PSN login as my old PS3, and restored an old LBP1 profile backup from the fat PS3 I happened to have on a USB stick, and IIRC it worked just fine, i.e. without the "you have copied this profile blah blah blah..." message. So I don't think this is specific to PS+, but just works because you would necessarily have to use the same PSN login info to retrieve your backups. | 2011-04-12 19:53:00 Author: Aya042  Posts: 2870 |
| Well after reading this and other posts about people loosing data I now back everything up to a 250gb external USB hard drive. Makes me sleep better so I haven't bothered with PSN+. As for PSN and being protable, Microsoft have the best structure for a portable ID (gamertag) I can go to any friends house and sign into to my account/load it to play with them and still earn achievements and my data is fine. Allows more then one master account on consoles (I have several). Plus the hard drives are standardised across all consoles (not sure about the new slim one).I'm in the UK but went on holiday in New Zealand and recovered my gamertag and played over there on a friends console on my profile. Excellent. oOOPS sorry off topic there for a moment. Anyway, I''ve nearly maxed my space on PS3 (old fat system, 5-6gb left) and I'm very weary about upgrading the hard drive as many game saves are protected. Copying them over makes the PS3 think it's not yours. Also I'm not sure if upgrading my hard drive will let LBP1 data transfer over to LBP2 then LBP3 at a much later date due to a new hard drive. But I'll leave that for another post when I'm ready. | 2011-04-13 15:08:00 Author: LittleBigDes  Posts: 920 |
| As for PSN and being protable, Microsoft have the best structure for a portable ID (gamertag) I can go to any friends house and sign into to my account/load it to play with them and still earn achievements and my data is fine. You can do this on the PS3, too. Not too familiar with XBOX though... what do you mean by the "data is fine?" Does XBOXLive already put save files on cloud servers? Allows more then one master account on consoles (I have several).Why you would need this is beyond me. Mutiple accounts, sure... but multiple master accounts? Plus the hard drives are standardised across all consoles (not sure about the new slim one).I'm in the UK but went on holiday in New Zealand and recovered my gamertag and played over there on a friends console on my profile. Excellent. oOOPS sorry off topic there for a moment.The PS3 is compatible with any external USB HD and (like the XBOX) will only allow specific types of internal hard drives to be swapped out. (Edit: Just researched upgrading a XBOX360 HD and it looks ten times harder than the PS3. Involves third party apps, complicated backup processes, etc.) /fanboy Anyway, I''ve nearly maxed my space on PS3 (old fat system, 5-6gb left) and I'm very weary about upgrading the hard drive as many game saves are protected. Copying them over makes the PS3 think it's not yours.Well, sounds like the cloud is for you then. If you're only looking to transfer them temporarily, then perhaps a month-long PS+ is all you need? Also I'm not sure if upgrading my hard drive will let LBP1 data transfer over to LBP2 then LBP3 at a much later date due to a new hard drive. But I'll leave that for another post when I'm ready.Your profile will stay the same whether you copy it to a USB drive, external HD, the PS+ cloud, or floppy disk (if you so desire.) As long as it's not already corrupted or otherwise damaged, transferring your profile should be harmless. | 2011-04-13 15:32:00 Author: schm0 Posts: 1239 |
| Not trying to start a war, but I'll point it out since you asked. What I mean by my data is fine: Is that I can play online and all my stats etc carry over if Im the UK or playing in another country or friends console. My friend and I cannot play on the same PS3 on my profile and him on his profile. They are both master accounts and tied to one per console. It's not a cloud based service as PSN+ is. But I'm glad to see this incorporated. I generally find PSN extremely slow with downloads, updates & other problems playing online. At times not working so I'm reluctant to see how this improves the quality online over having PSN+ so I haven't bothered with it. But the access to demos, 4 PSN games and cloud space is an added bonus. UPDATE: Although you don't actually own those 4 games you get, it's more like a rental, theoretically you're still paying for them by subscribing to PSN+. As soon as you stop you no longer have access to them. They have to make money so it's supported so this is understandable. Standardise hard drive: I'm not going on about external USB hard drives, of course those are fine, they're meant to be used on all sorts of devices. What I mean is the HD that is comes with. So when you swap out your original PS3 HD to a newer bigger one, countless people have been unable to upgrade as game saves are protected and not meant to be copied over. I don't have the newer Xbox slim, but mine has a transfer cable but I've not used it and simply used a USB pen to transfer saves over. It was very simple to do. EDIT: With my system you simply clip out the old hard drive and clip in the new one. This is different with the newer slim model, you have to actually open it up. As for LBP1 transfering over to LBP2: Media Molecule themselves noticed that loads of people were unable to transfer thier LBP1 profile to LBP2 since changing their hard drive and copying over all thier data is seen as a 'copy' and not the original save of that person. So people have had to wait for before playing or alas re-play all of LBP1 and ace evey llevel and collect all 100% items again. Hence the problem in the above paragraphs. For upgrading you may want to look at this, I'm not sure if I fall into this as I haven't checked my PS3 serial number: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/02/sonys-latest-ps3-firmware-gaffe-hd-upgrades-temporarily-impossible.ars?comments=1#comments-bar Also multiple accounts is a good thing: For example we only have one PS3 console, me and my husband are on it, we both have a profile. Mine is the master account and I'm free to buy and download things on PSN store. If he gets another PS3 he cannot as he has a sub-account. So will have to create a new one sacrificing everything he's done on my PS3. Sony customer support have said there is no way to upgrade a sub to a master and the only way is to wipe it clean and start again, create a new account but loose all your saves and trophies. This is very dissapointing. This problem has been going on for years, so it's best to have a look at this link: http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-Network/Sub-account-to-master-account/td-p/10290508 This is the same for other memebrs of my family that are on my PS3. BUT however, so far so good I have not had anything corrupt on me. But I did loose my levels in LBP1 due to an update. But I didn't loose my aces or game saves, just the stuff I did in create. Phew. also Im lucky enough to have all three consoles, Wii , Xbox and PS3 and love them all but not blind to the differences between them. I've been glued to my PS3 since LBP2 came out. I'm a bizy gamer, too may games not enough time. This has gone completely off topic now but worth a mention as I will eventually change my hard drive and may ask for help or even look into PSN+. | 2011-04-13 16:08:00 Author: LittleBigDes Posts: 920 |
| Also on one of the posts there are reports of the PS+ back-ups not working. My issues with it is it is the first option for back-ups every time, and like it was said earlier...they really don't have a "how to" for back-ups. | 2011-04-13 16:21:00 Author: celsus  Posts: 822 |
| Really? For something so important I thought they'd have something up about it. UPDATE: I've done a google search and not much turned up. May be something is on the official Sony site? I found this: http://uk.playstation.com/psn/support/ps3/detail/item352018/Store-game-data-using-Online-Storage/ http://uk.playstation.com/psn/support/ps3/detail/item354867/Online-Storage-for-Game-Saves-frequently-asked-questions/ Don't know how mucg that helps though. Also there's a few things about it on other forums such as the avforums. | 2011-04-13 16:33:00 Author: LittleBigDes Posts: 920 |
| Not trying to start a war, but I'll point it out since you asked. What I mean by my data is fine: Is that I can play online and all my stats etc carry over if Im the UK or playing in another country or friends console. My friend and I cannot play on the same PS3 on my profile and him on his profile. They are both master accounts and tied to one per console. It's not a cloud based service as PSN+ is. But I'm glad to see this incorporated. Ah, now I see what you are saying. I haven't tried playing on someone else's PS3, and didn't know that you couldn't log in under your own account if it was a master account on another PS3. (Edit: did a quick search and found that yes, you can have two or more master accounts on the same PS3. Link. (http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-3-General-Discussion/2-Master-accounts-on-one-PS3/m-p/8664600#M1524378)) Standardise hard drive:I'm not going on about external USB hard drives, of course those are fine, they're meant to be used on all sorts of devices. What I mean is the HD that is comes with. So when you swap out your original PS3 HD to a newer bigger one, countless people have been unable to upgrade as game saves are protected and not meant to be copied over. That's not true. The backup utility allows you to backup and restore saves very easily. There's a short list of about 40 titles that utilize copy protected game saves, but the vast majority of games (including LBP and LBP2) are not on that list (http://www.ps3news.com/PlayStation-3/locked-ps3-game-saves-compilation-list-is-now-available/). Even so, this is only if you buy a new PS3, not when you upgrade your HDD. I don't have the newer Xbox slim, but mine has a transfer cable but I've not used it and simply used a USB pen to transfer saves over. It was very simple to do. EDIT: With my system you simply clip out the old hard drive and clip in the new one. This is different with the newer slim model, you have to actually open it up. As for LBP1 transfering over to LBP2: Media Molecule themselves noticed that loads of people were unable to transfer thier LBP1 profile to LBP2 since changing their hard drive and copying over all thier data is seen as a 'copy' and not the original save of that person. So people have had to wait for before playing or alas re-play all of LBP1 and ace evey llevel and collect all 100% items again. Hence the problem in the above paragraphs.I wasn't aware of this problem... according to everything I've read, the backup utility works fine as long as you are copying them back to the same PS3. I couldn't find anything on the getsatisfaction page for this, either. For upgrading you may want to look at this, I'm not sure if I fall into this as I haven't checked my PS3 serial number: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/02/sonys-latest-ps3-firmware-gaffe-hd-upgrades-temporarily-impossible.ars?comments=1#comments-barOn the same page for that link: Update: It looks as if Sony silently pushed out a new version of the 3.56 firmware that requires you to manually update the system. There are no notes on what this new version does, and the version number remains the same, but the problem may have been fixed. We're also on firmware 3.60 now. Also multiple accounts is a good thing: For example we only have one PS3 console, me and my husband are on it, we both have a profile. Mine is the master account and I'n free to buy and download things on PSN store. If he gets another PS3 he cannot as he has a sub-account. So will have to create a new one sacrificing everything he's done on my PS3. Sony customer support have said there is no way to upgrade a sub to a master and the only way is to wipe it clean and start again, create a new account but loose all your saves and trophies. This is very dissapointing. This problem has been going on for years, so it's best to have a look at this link: http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-Network/Sub-account-to-master-account/td-p/10290508 This is the same for other memebrs of my family that are on my PS3.But that stems from a misunderstanding of what a master account and a sub account are. A master account can be used on another PS3, and you can have multiple master accounts on the same PS3 with no problems from what I've read. (See link above) I assume your husband is an adult, so why wouldn't you create a master account? A sub-account is typically used for minors whose parents don't want them to go crazy on their credit cards. I guess tha'ts all moot at this point in time, I suppose. :/ Trophies and saves aren't the end of the world, though.  | 2011-04-13 17:13:00 Author: schm0 Posts: 1239 |
| Well its definitely a flaw in the Sony system though. Thanks for the games list, great help that. But that link about the master account doesn't look legit especially when you game share. Shame that. For many that have upgraded, shame they've had to loose some too. Trophies and games are important especially as they go hand in hand, we shouldn't be penalised for the time put into playing them. But don't get me wrong I'm looking forward to several other games coming out (Last Guardian, Twisted Metal, Ico/Colossus HD remake etc). EDIT: Dam, Heavy Rain and Fat Princess are on that list | 2011-04-13 17:30:00 Author: LittleBigDes Posts: 920 |
| schm0 A master account can be used on another PS3, and you can have multiple master accounts on the same PS3 with no problems from what I've read. (See link above) I assume your husband is an adult, so why wouldn't you create a master account? When we set up the PS3 there was definitely no option for setting up another master account. A message popped up saying something along the lines of there is already a master account, you cannot create another new one as you are not the master account holder. May be this has been updated now, if so it's a few years too late. BUT this has messed up a lot of people from the early days that got a PS3. Also on that link other people have had the same problem. Strange. May be I got all wrong and he has a master account after all, just don't know how to check if it is? So it's more likely that he must be on an adult sub account. What's more important are my questions: 1. Does PSN+ get around the list of protected game saves when upgrading/changing the hard drive? Such as Heavy Rain and Fat Princess. 2. Will I be able to play these games at their current state and still earn any trophies and outcomes from the game? shm0 That's not true. The backup utility allows you to backup and restore saves very easily. There's a short list of about 40 titles that utilize copy protected game saves, but the vast majority of games (including LBP and LBP2) are not on that list. Even so, this is only if you buy a new PS3, not when you upgrade your HDD. This puzzles me as I've seen around forums that loads of people have problems when either upgrading their hard drive or buying a new PS3? UPDATE 3. Is there a way round without using PSN+ that I can transfer everything to a new hard drive, even the protected games that I have from the list? I may consider it if I can keep my game saves and trophies that are protected so I can continue playing them, just to change my hard drive. But I must admit it seems you can't transfer all of your own save data from one ps3 that we've paid for to another one or a new hard drive in the same PS3, that you've paid for what seems a flaw in their system. It would be great if someone could clarify this before I go and change my hard drive and loose Heavy Rain & Fat Princess. (now running off and do some research about this). May be someone with PSN+ or someone that has changed the hard drive could chip in? I hope I'm not repeating anything from previous threads/posts, but these are my concerns.  | 2011-04-13 21:21:00 Author: LittleBigDes Posts: 920 |
| Umm. System transfer works just fine. Not if your bluray goes out and you have to ship the system to Sony before they send you a refurb. You have to back it up and then import the backup on the new system. Saves that are locked via the ps3's system ID will import but they either won't load in the game (Rock Band) or, in lbp's case, they'll give you the copied save message. System transfer is only good if you have both systems there and working (at least working well enough to give you access to the transfer util) at the same time and can hook them up to each other. I was actually miffed about a few things when my ps3 died. First, it's very common for ps3's to die within a few years--the fact that there's more than just three or four people on a site like this with stories about their ps3s breaking is testament to that. Yet, when I mentioned to the Sony rep that it seemed kind of common, he immediately spit out this scripted response about how there are blah blah million ps3's out there and the failure rate is blah blah. That number sounded great at the time until you considered that it was just after the slim came out and the price dropped to the point where the ps3 had really taken off and sold millions more--more than two thirds of their sales had been in the last six months so of course few of those systems had failed yet. For the statistic to be meaningful, they would need to attach a timeframe: of the systems sold in the first six months of the ps3's launch, such and such percent have failed or something like that; it doesn't mean anything if you count the ones that sold last week or the ones that are still on store shelves. Another thing that really bugged me was how that same rep assured me that if it was at all possible, my system would be repaired and shipped back to me, yet they shipped a refurb to me the same day that my old one arrived at their office or whatever (the fedex or ups-can't remember which-records let me see when it arrived and when they shipped the refurb), which means that they almost certainly did NOT attempt to repair my system before shipping me a refurb, despite that rep's assurances. Another thing that bothers me is that there's absolutely no way for us as consumers to know exactly what went wrong. Did the system overheat 'cuz I played it for too long at a time? Was there a buildup of dust that I should have done something about? Did the new firmware which came out the day before corrupt my ps3's bluray driver? Was it a design flaw in the ps3 itself that simply takes time to manifest? When you have to shell out $160 (more than half of the price to buy a new one) for a "repair" you should be able to get a little more information about it. How can I avoid my new ps3 suffering the same fate? Why is the fan in my new one so much louder (seriously, it sounds like a hair dryer)? Was there a problem with the fan in the old one or is something wrong with the new one? I really really don't like how even after you buy a ps3, you never really own it. Another thing that bugs me is that they lock game saves at all. I wouldn't have cared whether I got my old system repaired or a refurb if it wasn't for the fact that I would lose most of my game saves with a refurb. When my fat PS3 YLOD'd, I bought a new slim, created a new local user account on that, associated it with the same PSN login as my old PS3, and restored an old LBP1 profile backup from the fat PS3 I happened to have on a USB stick, and IIRC it worked just fine, i.e. without the "you have copied this profile blah blah blah..." message. Interesting. That's a good tip and I hope others can apply it and get the same results. In my case, I got the "you have copied..." message, but then I applied the leerdammer patch, it converted it from save data to game data, and the message went away. I had assumed it was because of that transfer, but maybe it was because of my psn id matching. At any rate, Sony's solutions where you either have to transfer it from one working system to another or you have to pay for an online cloud service are inadequate. It's akin to a protection racket imo-we created the problem, but to be protected by it, you have to pay us every month. | 2011-04-14 02:03:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188 |
| Thank the lord I have that old limited edition 40GB MGS4 PS3. I have never even heard of the Death Ring Light Gilksy thingy. I'm sure losing your data like that must be like a flesh eating virus except it feeds on your time and money. I don't see how PS Plus would help aside from having that little warranty thing. | 2011-04-14 02:17:00 Author: PurpleChaos  Posts: 155 |
| Hi sehven, I have to say I fully agree with everything you've said and you talk a lot of sense. After all these years that the PS3 has been around I would expect a better service and some sort of neutrality about something that you have invested time and money into. This is appauling. But I'll definitely take into concideration the Leerdemeer path and creating a local profile when I decide to change my hard drive. Just with all these problems I'm left wondering if it will then effect future LBP3 games saves and other games. Sony should really fully impliment a system that ties in games saves and data to your PSN ID rather then your console/hard drive ID then we wouldn't have this sort of problem, wether you're playing offline or online. I'm assuming this is hard to integrate with the PS3 & PSN and left with developers and could open up other problems. They should adopt a similar approach as Microsoft have done, where all my data is tied to my Gamertag ID. Although in the early days the only game save I had a problem with was an early game called, Viva Pinata as I had moved it around 3 different consoles. Everything just seems to work a lot better. I've had my early 'FAT' PS3 for quite a few years now so at some point I may get the YLOD and I'm close to changing my hard drive due to lack of space. But I will definitely do more research before doing this. I certainly don't want to loose any of my game saves. I must admit I have love a love hate relationship with my PS3 when everything else is so much easier on my other consoles. But I won't go into those details as I don't want to start a war and I appreciate gaming on all of them. With all these problems and looking at PSN+ is seems like a complete joke when looking at the finer details. But I'm open minded and will bare these all in mind before changing my hard drive (I am now in a habit of backing up to an external hard drive every now and again). Part of me is thinking to ignore the new hard drive and just a buy a new system with a bigger hard drive and do a system transfer. But I don't see why I should have to pay out again for another PS3 or PSN+ when a new hard drive will do. | 2011-04-14 10:25:00 Author: LittleBigDes Posts: 920 |
| Not if your bluray goes out and you have to ship the system to Sony before they send you a refurb. You have to back it up and then import the backup on the new system. Saves that are locked via the ps3's system ID will import but they either won't load in the game (Rock Band) or, in lbp's case, they'll give you the copied save message. Yeah. The backup/restore option won't work with copy-protected saves, although fortunately I don't have any of those, and I try to avoid that problem by deliberately not purchasing any games which use copy-protected saves, as it makes a complete mockery of the concept of a "system backup". I'd like to believe that if everyone boycotted the copy-protection system by never purchasing any games which use them, they'd soon become a thing of the past, but I doubt that'd ever happen - most are probably unaware of the problem at the time of purchase, and even for those who are aware, many are prepared to accept that limitation as a pre-requisite for the 'privilege' of being allowed to play the game. So for the bluray fail case (prior to the PS+ backup option), I guess it depends how much you value your data. If you value it to the extent that you'd be prepared to purchase a new PS3 just to use the system transfer option like a backup/restore in order to retain the copy-protected saves, then that's an option, albeit a rather expensive one. I know nothing of Rockband, but I don't believe LBP's profile backups are copy-protected in the traditional sense, and the backup/restore option will work just fine for transferring onto a new PS3 without the "copied profile" message. Still, not even the system transfer will correctly transfer an LBP1 profile in Game Data (not sure about LBP2), so if you don't make regular backups to Save Data, not even that will help you. Another thing that really bugged me was how that same rep assured me that if it was at all possible, my system would be repaired and shipped back to me... I received no such 'assurances' when my PS3 failed - they were very clear that they would make no attempt to repair it, and even if they'd've said they "might" fix it, I wouldn't have considered that to be an 'assurance' either. Another thing that bothers me is that there's absolutely no way for us as consumers to know exactly what went wrong. Odd are, if they make no attempt to repair the system for you, they probably don't even bother to diagnose the fault. Considering the complexity the the system, it's probably cheaper for them to just chuck it in the bin than to pay someone to work out what went wrong. At any rate, Sony's solutions where you either have to transfer it from one working system to another or you have to pay for an online cloud service are inadequate. It's akin to a protection racket imo-we created the problem, but to be protected by it, you have to pay us every month. Ultimately we can only blame ourselves for choosing to buy into a closed-architecture system with an insanely paranoid copy-protection system, and by doing so we've not only chosen to accept the limitations of that system, but also to financially reward Sony for screwing us over. If you have copy-protected saves you want to back up, then, realistically, the PS+ backup option will probably work out cheaper than buying a second PS3 just to use for backing up copy-protected savegames, and if the alternative is that PS+ never existed, we wouldn't have that choice. So I don't see how the PS+ option can be a bad thing, unless you're suggesting that the copy-protected save system was only brought into place for the purposes of selling you the PS+ option somewhere down the line. I guess I'm also a little miffed about the PS3 backup issues, and as there were no such limitations with the PS2, then when the PS2 became obsolete, I figured, since the PS3 would play all my old PS2 games, that choosing that over, say, an Xbox360 was a no-brainer. Since being forced onto a slim, I no longer have that option, and when we reach the point of the PS3's obsolescense, I'll put a lot more thought into whether I choose to purchase a PS4 if it has the same limitations for backups than the PS3 currently does. | 2011-04-14 12:24:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870 |
| Very true and very well put Aya042. I'm hoping all this and more will be corrected by the time the PS4 comes around. I do value my game saves, so even though I don't like this false economy with PSN+ it may be a good thing in the long run and work out cheaper like you said. | 2011-04-14 12:40:00 Author: LittleBigDes Posts: 920 |
| I'd like to believe that if everyone boycotted the copy-protection system by never purchasing any games which use them, they'd soon become a thing of the past, but I doubt that'd ever happen - most are probably unaware of the problem at the time of purchase, and even for those who are aware, many are prepared to accept that limitation as a pre-requisite for the 'privilege' of being allowed to play the game. For what it's worth, I decided to skip on AC: Brotherhood after I lost access to my 85% AC2 save (I haven't been able to determine whether AC:B saves are actually locked or not). Like you suggest, I didn't know about save game locking until it bit me in the *pick a body part*. I still think it's not so much Sony who's to blame, but the developers who decide they need to lock saves to the system. Games like LBP prove that locking to PSN is possible and preferable. | 2011-04-14 12:47:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284 |
| May it's a bit of both. Developers finding it hard to accomodate/integrate with the system and part lack of support to do so from Sony, unless you're a 'first party' developer or owned by Sony like Media Molecule are? I'm not sure as I'm not a developer. As Im sure there are other devs that aren't owned by Sony and have managed to lock games saves to PSN ID rather then console. So who knows. | 2011-04-14 12:59:00 Author: LittleBigDes Posts: 920 |
| I received no such 'assurances' when my PS3 failed - they were very clear that they would make no attempt to repair it, and even if they'd've said they "might" fix it, I wouldn't have considered that to be an 'assurance' either. Odds are, if they make no attempt to repair the system for you, they probably don't even bother to diagnose the fault. Considering the complexity the the system, it's probably cheaper for them to just chuck it in the bin than to pay someone to work out what went wrong. Yeah, I figure the rep was just blowing sunshine up my butt to get me off the phone. Still, it's not like I had any other options: all I could have done would be to crack the ps3 open myself and do the heat gun fix, which might or might not have worked. If I'd tried it and failed, I would have been stuck buying a new ps3 without b/c at full retail rather than paying the $160 for 60g refurb with b/c. I'd like to believe that if everyone boycotted the copy-protection system by never purchasing any games which use them, they'd soon become a thing of the past, but I doubt that'd ever happen - most are probably unaware of the problem at the time of purchase, and even for those who are aware, many are prepared to accept that limitation as a pre-requisite for the 'privilege' of being allowed to play the game. Ultimately we can only blame ourselves for choosing to buy into a closed-architecture system with an insanely paranoid copy-protection system, and by doing so we've not only chosen to accept the limitations of that system, but also to financially reward Sony for screwing us over. ....when we reach the point of the PS3's obsolescense, I'll put a lot more thought into whether I choose to purchase a PS4 if it has the same limitations for backups than the PS3 currently does.Indeed. I certainly will never buy another Sony product ever again, though it has little to do with the save game issue (aside from my annoyance about how they handled replacing my system). It's more about the general contempt that Sony has for their consumers, pulling stunts like eliminating b/c from later consoles, eliminating linux from all consoles both new and existing despite it being an advertised feature, and releasing a f/w update to prevent third party unlicensed controllers/accessories which people had already paid for (sure Sony was under no obligation to support them, but deliberately disabling them and turning them into costly paperweights was a **** dirty trick). The ps3 will almost certainly be my last console purchase, and I'm not planning on buying many more games for it. It sucks 'cuz I still love Mm despite their being part of Sony, but I really really hate Sony. | 2011-04-15 06:00:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188 |
If you are so bothered about losing it just get a fire proof safe...  | 2011-04-15 16:50:00 Author: Kern  Posts: 5078 |
| Reading all these and more I can see why hackers hack when Sony do these things that you've mentioned and more. I hate it and wish they'd do something else with their lives but I see both ends of the story even though I don't like it. This is one of the reasons I only really reserve my PS3 to play the odd exclusive game and play everything else on my Xbox 360 as the experience is far better and more sociable, including online as it's fully supported. Whereas I find online with my PS3/PSN always has problems. Then they bring out PSN+ and give these incentives such as 4 games, which you pay for but never actually own once you stop paying (more like a rental as I've said before). The saying 'you get what you pay for goes out the window' with that 4 games incentive. But that saying I find is true when you look at PSN as an online network as a whole and the service you get. Originally Posted by Aya042 I'd like to believe that if everyone boycotted the copy-protection system by never purchasing any games which use them, they'd soon become a thing of the past, but I doubt that'd ever happen - most are probably unaware of the problem at the time of purchase, and even for those who are aware, many are prepared to accept that limitation as a pre-requisite for the 'privilege' of being allowed to play the game. Everyone will never boycott anything from Sony. As a brand they have a huge dominance in the gaming market since the PS1. It's a shame millions of people don't realise until something goes wrong. I said before I have a love hate relationship with my PS3... But with good exclusives like LBP2 I've been on a lot more then usual and I'm still looking forward to a few more exclusives coming out later this year. | 2011-04-15 17:01:00 Author: LittleBigDes Posts: 920 |
| O_o paying so much money.. while you can get a usb stick with enough memory for half the prize of one month subscription. just back up more often | 2011-04-15 17:50:00 Author: Luos_83  Posts: 2136 |
| Its funny, i clearly started this thread out of frustration and i guess the biggest noob mistake i made was not backing up the data. The good news is everyone seems aware of YLOD, it can get any Ps3--even if you have a slim. I'd recommend USB's as well, paying a monthly subscription is only really valuable if you want the other features in PS + as well. I dont even have cash like that lol I think the title is more to draw attention if anything... I also agree that Sony can rip people off. The thing is, you cant put hard drives into another ps3 and get the data out because of the copy protections built in. I think online saves should be a free feature--i mean we do get online free as it is, but it doesn't mean charging 20 bucks for that feature monthly is justifiable either. | 2011-04-16 01:12:00 Author: Rpg Maker Posts: 877 |
| Yeah, I figure the rep was just blowing sunshine up my butt to get me off the phone. Still, it's not like I had any other options: all I could have done would be to crack the ps3 open myself and do the heat gun fix, which might or might not have worked. If I'd tried it and failed, I would have been stuck buying a new ps3 without b/c at full retail rather than paying the $160 for 60g refurb with b/c. When my PS3 went and I found that they wouldn't repair my console and would instead replace it with a refurb, I replaced the power supply myself. I hate that policy and totally agree it should be done away with. Indeed. I certainly will never buy another Sony product ever again, though it has little to do with the save game issue (aside from my annoyance about how they handled replacing my system). It's more about the general contempt that Sony has for their consumers, pulling stunts like eliminating b/c from later consoles, eliminating linux from all consoles both new and existing despite it being an advertised feature, and releasing a f/w update to prevent third party unlicensed controllers/accessories which people had already paid for (sure Sony was under no obligation to support them, but deliberately disabling them and turning them into costly paperweights was a **** dirty trick). The ps3 will almost certainly be my last console purchase, and I'm not planning on buying many more games for it. It sucks 'cuz I still love Mm despite their being part of Sony, but I really really hate Sony. Only PS2 compatibility was removed, and that was a cost saving device. People weren't buying the console at the price, so Sony cut that to lower it. As for the Linux thing, I understand the frustration of people bought the PS3 for the sole purpose of running Linux on it, but doesn't Sony have a responsibility to its other customers to protect the integrity of the brand? It was cool that the PS3 ran Linux, and if I liked it enough, I could've disconnected from the Playstation Network and enjoyed Linux all I wanted. But, I'd prefer to play games on my machine. The problem with Linux was the security loophole it provided as an access gate for piracy. If they refused to close that breach, piracy would've become more rampant than it is on the PSP. When piracy becomes that common, then intrusive DRM policies get put into place. Eventually those are cracked, and then publishers simply decide to stop releasing games for the platform because they get no return on their investment (see the recent decline in PC gaming). I know this is a touchy subject, and I can see both sides of it, but I really think that Sony has a responsibility to its larger customer base to ensure that games will continue to be developed for the system by keeping it secure. | 2011-04-16 04:52:00 Author: nextlevel88 Posts: 149 |
| I hate that policy and totally agree it should be done away with. I don't necessarily have a problem with their policy that if you open the ps3 you lose the option to have them repair it. I was just bothered that there was no option to get my ps3 repaired instead of getting a refurb. It wouldn't have been an issue if it weren't for locked game saves which is kinda' what this whole thread is about. The problem with Linux was the security loophole it provided as an access gate for piracy....I really think that Sony has a responsibility to its larger customer base to ensure that games will continue to be developed for the system by keeping it secure. Piracy is bad and I would certainly never say that a company should not take action against it, but let's face it: the reality is nowhere near as bad as Sony or the other companies would have you believe (just because X,000 people download a game doesn't mean the company lost X,000 sales-many wouldn't have bought the game even if there were no option for piracy), I would think the problem with pc gaming might have something to do with the fact that a decent gaming pc can cost upwards of $1000 while the ps3 was considered outrageously expensive at $600, and the psp is suffering because almost no AAA titles were ever made for it more than it's suffering from piracy (yeah, it had lots of decent ones and even a nice amount of good games, but only a handful of killer aps, many of which are just scaled down inferior versions of home console games). The ds is easy to pirate too, but it's still the most successful of all the current game consoles. Make no mistake, Sony removed Linux for their own interests, not ours. Normally I wouldn't complain about a company protecting itself (companies by their very nature exist to make money), but when that protection costs the customers something that they've already paid for, that's crossing the line. I used to love Sony, but the sheer audacity and disregard for their customers exhibited by that stunt was enough to turn me off from them. I'm still flabbergasted by it and I can't believe that they got away with it (there was a class action lawsuit but I haven't heard anything about it in months and most people seem to think it just sort of fizzled out). That general jerkishness along with the precedent it sets (if they can pull that kind of stunt with no repercussions, what else will they or other companies do?) really bothers me. So yeah, I still play my ps3 (mostly just for lbp) but I won't be buying a ps4 or a psp2/ngp/whatever they're calling it. | 2011-04-17 10:09:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188 |
| I have a backwards-compatible original PS3. LOSEDONOTWANT. | 2011-04-17 18:16:00 Author: Cronos Dage  Posts: 396 |
| huh? how does Playstation Plus help with backing up your data? i don't get it... cloud saving enables you to save your game saves online. | 2011-04-17 19:21:00 Author: GribbleGrunger  Posts: 3910 |
| cloud saving enables you to save your game saves online. LOLz, like two other people already replied to me ages ago when i said that~ | 2011-04-17 19:35:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261 |
| huh? how does Playstation Plus help with backing up your data? i don't get it... Hes right ^ How does it help? | 2011-04-17 19:56:00 Author: donta133  Posts: 182 |
| Hes right ^ How does it help? reading all the pages of this topic helps. Go back in the topic and see the replies i got. | 2011-04-17 20:01:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261 |
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