Archive: 21 posts

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My earlier thread got a ton of responses, and that is awesome. it looks like there are a few common themes of things many of us see as something that is not our strength. I figured I would make a thread covering each of those where people can post what helps them with their weak points, and, if you feel it is a strength for you, post some tips for others. I'm actually looking forward to the post on visual elements since that is my weakness. I think I am pretty decent with logic though, so let's start there. What would you guys suggest to help someone get more comfortable with logic, and improve their effectiveness with it? If you feel like this is your weakness, feel free to post general questions about technique as well. Just please no "How do I" type questions on specific cases. Something that helps me is to hand draw the logic first. If you know what the LBP components look like, then you already know most of the notation. Just grab some graph paper (or print some using a downloadable template), and sketch it out. It sounds ridiculous, but it really helps to visualize what you want the system to do before going into LBP. It's much faster to just draw a triangle with a circle on the tip and connect it with lines than it is to go into LBP2 and create the same, then connect it. I can sketch through five options much faster than I can put together one test case in game. This lets you quickly draw out ideas no matter where you are. even if it isn't right, you have a baseline to refer to when you start getting lost in what you are doing in create mode. Plus, it teaches you how to read and visualize logic without needing to be in game. I do it a lot.

2011-03-30 02:27:00 Author: tdarb Posts: 689

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Say it out as a sentence over in your head: "If A is less than B, and C is FALSE, the D becomes B minus A" or that sorta thing(That was an actual example).

2011-03-30 02:50:00 Author: iBubek Posts: 682

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For people who are not especially keen on programming, the logic in LBP can be deterring before it's given a chance. It's beautifully presented and easy to implement, but still hard to grok for a lot of players, despite the helpful tutorials. As with all learning curves, the most value one will get for time put in is when attempting a personal project idea that's bigger than one's scope of knowledge. That is to say, having an idea, and experimenting through iterations of logic until we find one that works. It's how people learn most technology. "I want my bagel toasted! What's the setting for that on the microwave?" or "I want my blog comments to have avatars... how do I implement that?" In the case of LBP, it could be "I want this lake to become electrified with a lightning strike" or "I want the level lighting to strobe red when a player has only 10% health left." There will be shortcuts and hacks attempted, failures, abandoned projects... but those ideas drive us to learn a few new tricks. Learning in this way is all fits and bursts, which can be a bad thing. I have seen some amazing, gifted programmers on LBP who are comfortable with the logic but along the way scared themselves out of attempting the art, resulting in very smart but not very visual levels. I've also seen levels that are very pretty, but there's nothing under the hood - they seem to want to do something, but the creator didn't risk mucking up the landscape with interactivity. This ties into your previous thread about each of our weaknesses. Self improvement, in general, means going outside one's comfort zone. We get better when we do something different. Easier said than done, since we don't always want to go outside our comfort zone when we sit down to play a video game.

2011-03-30 03:33:00 Author: Unknown User

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I usually find it useful to build a flow chart on paper before attempting any complicated logic. Also, breaking the logic down into smaller pieces. If you understand the basics of logic, and are looking to improve - the only advice I have is to practice and stay out of your comfort zone. Think of a more complex project, break it down into pieces, and try to build it. Struggling to do something that you're not comfortable with is a great way to stretch out and learn a new skill.

2011-03-30 03:46:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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wow arbiekko. Great reply! Replies like that are what keep me coming back here; that and the willingness of people to share ideas. Everyone has something to offer, and we all do things differently.

2011-03-30 07:33:00 Author: tdarb Posts: 689

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"If A is less than B, and C is FALSE, the D becomes B minus A" or that sorta thing(That was an actual example). This right here? This... this is why I hate logic. All that comes out of my head is... why won't this @*%^&# switch turn on? Then, one of my logic buddies shows up to say hello, informs me it's not a switch, it's an advanced joystick rotator, and that I shouldn't be playing with adult things as I could get hurt. Or, "Ohai Rustbu... woah! What the hell are you doing? You have like... 5 extra wires and two extra logic gates on this you don't need, and it's never going to float if you don't add an antigravity tweaker on both the holo AND the microchip." ... or something to that effect. Plus... I'm horrible at math, and just found out recently that logic can be thought of in this A + B - the square root of B - C is D... but C hasn't been calculated yet because my toast is now burning in the microwave. It's frustrating for us "Logitards" (yes, it's mine... but you can use it) because many of us are different in the way we think from logic savvy people. It's rare that you get a creator who is both visual, as well as logic-gate minded (I don't say logical, because being logical has absolutely nothing to do with actual logic... and it's insulting when people tell us to "Just think logically about it!") What would really help many of us is to have tutorials on different logic gates, showing 4 or 5 different applications of the same setups. Where the Mm tutorials fail, is that they don't really show anything other than basic stuff. This turns a light on, and off. If you set it to dimmer, it dims it... on then off. We need to see how a timer in conjuction with an OR gate hooked into it's own reset runnng to two AND gates in something called paralell, will make this thing go up once slowly, fall down, then rise again more quickly, THEN make my hot cappuccino for me. Heck... half the options in tweak menu's aren't even covered. I'll give you an example of a typical scenario that both baffles and irritates me. I recently posted about getting help on how to make something turn on, stay on for a period of time, then slowly fade off. I had about 5 or 6 responses in the thread (including one from tdarb) ... all different. I had two friends show up in my level to help, and neither one of those solututions seemed to work for me. Finally, one of the friends in that thread came along with a completely different idea than the one he originally suggested in the thread... spent about 7 minutes setting it up while I watched... and boom... done! What really frustrates me is that there were seemingly 5 or 6 different ways of creating logic to do what I wanted. That to me... is ridiculous... and there's nothing logical about it at all. I mean, there aren't 5 or 6 different ways to make toast. There's 3. A toaster, a campfire, or a lighter if your electricity gets shut off because your woman ran off with another man and cleaned out your bank account. As far as I know... there's just no other way to make a decent slice of toast. The bonus part was that after I had it, I was able to play with it and see what it does and how it works... this little system of his. I was able to hook it up to different things and see how it affected those things. I'm now using it to great effect in the same level but in a different area and for a completely different application. What sucks is that I know full well that the same friend who helped make it for me might very well come into my level tomorrow and see that I'm now using it for something completely different and say "Hey Rust... you know that there's an easier more thermo-friendly and simpler set up you can use to do that instead of that thing I made for you yesterday for that other problem you had... right?" And my answer would likely to be to run as fast as possible head first into the wall... but making sure I found a good sturdy stud to connect with first. Another thing that frustrates many of us Logitards is when we see threads on logic or even ask questions stating clearly that we know nothing about this stuff, and we get these responses from some of you logic folks in the same language you use talking to your logic/programming buddies at work. I just asked you to explain something to me like I'm an 8 year old, and you ansered me with techno-babble... where's the logic in that? No offense, but I think some of the people do it because they enjoy coming off sounding smart... I honestly do. I could go on and on using technical terms about questions asked of me where music, editing, animation, art, etc. are concerned... but I realize the person asking the question is asking because they don't know. So how in the heck am I doing them a favour using industry terms to further confuse them? I don't mean to sound ungrateful for the attempted help, but sometimes we just don't feel like our cries for help are being heard or answered the right way. I simply can't go through a logic blog that's chok full of tecno-babble terms and take anything away from it. My mind doesn't work that way... I need to either see something working first hand, or have it broken down so basically that a horse could read it and pound out the answer with his left hoof. I'm no idiot, anyone here on the forums that knows me can attest to that (unless, I'm that guy that no one wants to tell is actually kind of slow)... but this stuff is really difficult to learn for creative folks like myself who use the other side of our brains the majority of the time. Now... if there were only a logic gate that would shut my brain down on a timer so my posts didn't carry on so long... that would be epic.

2011-03-30 16:52:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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O.O Whoah, that was a lot. Quite an enjoyable read though To be honest, I don't do anytihng, I just build it and test it in create to see what's wrong, then fix it, then repeat until it works.

2011-03-30 17:08:00 Author: kirbyman62 Posts: 1893

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Say it out as a sentence over in your head: "If A is less than B, and C is FALSE, the D becomes B minus A" or that sorta thing(That was an actual example). Stop... talking... like... a Alien! (O_O) here's how i get better by asking a logic king like Clay questions, and watching people like him create... plus also i try to think it out like a Tom and Jerry cartoon. but that mostly worked good for old logic, now i lay out the logic things like in the forum of a comic, and i try my best to think how things may work in the most simple way i can. more or less it's not something i can put in to words very well, i've learned slowly over time a lot of tricks etc, and I just go off of everything i know by feeling it out. *mew

2011-03-30 17:15:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261

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To get better at logic, its all like math all you have to do is Understand what there for and how they behave in different ways, just like Math, numbers can either be multiply or divide etc etc. The thing is there no such thing as being good at logic, (Atleats I believe so) because to be good at logic you have to be there, in the moment to think (I want this to work this way and do this) In simple words, logic is like math, you just learn to understand it, Dealing with logic is like reading a math problem, and you say.. (Ohhh ok im gonna do this and this to solve it) I dont really believe in being good at logic, cause anyone can. It has endless possibilities you just have to be there in the moment to think about it and brainstorm all over the place and before you know, this question you ask," how to get better with logic" will....basicly just fade away, I used to ask myself the same thing. Until I started thinking this way^^^^ Then I just nor call myself good at logic nor bad, I just do it when I have to and make it work.

2011-03-30 18:07:00 Author: Bloo_boy Posts: 1019

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Well like anything: Practice makes perfect. Im still pretty new to creating in LBP, i only published one level in LBP, so when i got LBP2 i didnt know anything about logic. Two months later, i can create pretty much anything i want to. My advice is just get a vision of what you want, and proceed in making it. You can watch all the logic videos and tutorials you want to, but it wont make any difference until you try it yourself. Create while the videos are playing and do exactly what they are doing in the video as its playing. Then the logic eventually becomes second nature. Thats all there is too it, but dont expect to learn everything over night

2011-03-30 18:44:00 Author: Rpg Maker Posts: 877

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The introduction of the native off-the-shelf boolean logic system addressed a lot of issues I had with LBP1. Instead of having to work around the system in order to help me create what I want there is now a set of tools that are aiding me. Nevertheless, I keep seeing posts like this. Creators that may have had an easy time creating artistic levels more focused on platforming in LBP1 that fall short with all these new and weird gadgets with alien names like AND, NAND, XOR and whatnot. And if that wasn't enough, you're expected to connect these thingies with a spaghetti mess of wires going here and there and back and forth. I think it's not for everyone. And I did predict that it would change the community in one way or the other. Not split it, but change it. Now, for the solution. I'm a great supporter of practice and thereby practical solutions to practical problems. You can read as many tutorials you want with page up and page down about Full adders, signal manipulation, 7 bit registers, nitpicking on signal output from tag sensors and so and so and so on, but for most creators it's enough figuring out how to make a couple of sliding doors stay open. Or how to dispense the right amount of cakes at a certain point based on a certain amount of criterias. So first, you need a practical "problem" that you need to address and then try to solve this by it's own. Maybe in an empty logic workshop level. Use basic materials that and make sort of a blueprint of what you're trying to acheive. Begin simple using the big to small approach. Have the circuitboards open and see how the signals are flowing through the logic. One of the biggest advantages with the new solution is that even though you trigger a logic routine, you don't risk having to build it again like in LBP1. You just have to dare to try. I find comphemc's tutorials very helpful and I think they can be used by creators at all levels: http://www.youtube.com/user/LBPlanetorials

2011-03-30 19:05:00 Author: Discosmurf Posts: 210

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@Rustbukkit... great read. you never fail to entertain me. @OP Start simple, and slowly build your way up. My first major foray with logic in LBP1, beyond turning lights and bolts on and off with switches, was to try to build a boss sequence, and looking back, it was like building a house of cards. The foundations were shaky but it held together as I build it up piece by piece. It was ambitious and certainly out of my realm of comfort, but because of that I stood to learn a lot. The only way to get better is to attempt something you don't know how to do and ask a lot of questions. The tutorials around here are a great starting point, but sometimes you also need a friend to show you the ropes. Big revelations can happen when you realize that some system can be applied in a way you never thought possible. Things like realizing the positional setting on the sequencer can be linked to a timer or counter to set it at a certain point and using that to trigger different circuits, or learning that the direction combiner is a subtraction unit that can give you the difference between two analog values. Oh, and having "analog vs. digital" explained to you from the ground up... Once you really understand the fundamentals of what the toolset can do, you will start to think of different applications to accomplish non-trivial tasks, but trying to run before you learn to walk will probably land you flat on your face and leave you feeling like a "logitard".

2011-03-30 19:13:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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I mean, there aren't 5 or 6 different ways to make toast. There's 3. A toaster, a campfire, or a lighter if your electricity gets shut off because your woman ran off with another man and cleaned out your bank account. As far as I know... there's just no other way to make a decent slice of toast. Under the grill. You have to flip it at just the right time and if your grill isn't very even you might have to spin it a couple of times, but you can make a pretty darn good slice of toast under the grill. One good tip is to place it really high up so it cooks quick - you'll have to be careful, as you've got maybe 10s margin between perfect and burned, but by risking all in this way you can create a slice of toast that is crispy on the outside yet moist and fluffy in the middle, in a way that no toaster I've ever experienced is capable of achieving. It might not be your cup of tea, but it's worth trying Practice. It's the only way. Reading stuff will give you ideas, but you won't actually learn much from reading stuff on the forums, not unless it's stuff that's unstretching (I can't think of a real word for this concept). Largely this is because the more you practice, the more you screw up. Screwing up and then fixing things is a better reinforcement mechanism than learning something and getting it right. That's not to say that you should aim to screw up, but you certainly shouldn't feel disheartened when you do. You think the people who are at the top of the logic game never screw up? Of course they do, they just screwwed up more times in the past so have got a little further. And as other people have suggested, stepping outside of your comfort zone and generally aiming for something comparatively big (relative to your experience) is one of the best ways to screw up, though you need to guage how far out of your comfort zone is the optimum. To much screwing up and not being able to fix things when you do screw up is counterproductive - like trying to outrun a hungry rocket cheetah, trying to outrun an scorned woman is probably a better bet - you've got a more achievable goal there and if you fail it's not such a big deal. Obviously we all have different levels of aptitudes for such things, just as some people will struggle to improve their visual skills (what do you mean there is more than 2 ways to make a tree that looks good? WTF man?), others will struggle to improve logic skills. But practice will improve things for anyone.

2011-03-30 19:33:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Under the grill. You have to flip it at just the right time and if your grill isn't very even you might have to spin it a couple of times, but you can make a pretty darn good slice of toast under the grill. One good tip is to place it really high up so it cooks quick - you'll have to be careful, as you've got maybe 10s margin between perfect and burned, but by risking all in this way you can create a slice of toast that is crispy on the outside yet moist and fluffy in the middle, in a way that no toaster I've ever experienced is capable of achieving. It might not be your cup of tea, but it's worth trying Quick... call the cops! The perp has returned to the scene of the crime!! GET HIIIM!! (I jest) See, now if I had remembered you could toast bread under the grill... I would'a just said, "Throw it in the oven and make sure the rack is somewhere near the roof. No... the roof of the oven... not the kitchen roof you fool!" PS. You forgot to mention that I should turn on the inside oven light so I can better monitor my bread in such a way that I reduce the risks of leaving it in too long, thus resulting in having to throw out burnt and ruined food, necessitating that I begin the entire process over again from scratch. Or... is that part of the learning curve? (what do you mean there is more than 2 ways to make a tree that looks good? WTF man?). There's actually 4, but I don't want to turn this into a wizzing contest. lolz. Seriously though, touche... and good point. I guess I look at the visual creative aspects vs. the logic creative aspects as so vastly different. The majority of people seem to agree that with the right amount of teaching and the proper methods, anyone can learn and become good with logic. With art, it's not quite that cut & dried. We've all had these conversations before, I know... but natural artistic talent just isn't something you can teach to someone who doesn't already have somewhat of a gift for it... whether it's visual, musical, acting, dance, any of the so called "creative arts". When I was in my early 20's, I had moved back home for a while. My step mother and my half brother had been taking piano lessons I guess, for a while at this point. Then, one day I came home and there was a baby Grande piano sitting in our living room. Being a drummer, I thought... this can't be too tough, went over and started playing it. I didn't realize she had snuck in behind me and was listening. I finished goofing around and heard a little sigh from behind me. She was somewhat amazed I guess, that someone with no lessons at all could just sit down, pull notes out of his butt, and play something so easily when she was struggling with her lessons. She played well enough, but had no emotion. I might have been a little more sloppy trying to find notes, but she said she thought I had more feeling when I played then when she did. I kind of felt bad to tell you the truth. I wish everyone could have these different strong points, but I suppose that's what makes us all unique. Ultimately, it's what brings us together as a community. Being different, and having our strong points. It doesn't often make for a good level, but it does make for the best LBP related forum around in my opinion. All I can really do to help people as a visual artist, is give my honest advice and positive feedback and criticism. When time permits, I can make something small here or there for a friend... or give something away I've already made that they might find useful... but I can't build a level for anyone. To me, the notion of trading visual advice for logic advice seems somewhat unfair and with the scales tipped slightly in favour of the visual person. It usually doesn't take one of you logic people very long to come in, troubleshoot our problem, I go put some coffee on and by the time I return you've gone back to your level and left behind for me a logic chip that will make my machine go "Bzzt-bzzt, shudder, whump, blip, ker-bonk!" When in fact, all I really needed was a chip to make my machine go "Bing!" In that same time frame, all the visual artist can do is begin to flesh out the basic shape of something that is going to take me another 45 minutes to a half hour to make, so that it goes perfectly well with the rest of your level. Most visual people won't want to spend that much time on something that will help another person's level. Not because we are mean or selfish, but because we know that there's a good chance our two styles won't mix, or worse yet, that you'll turn around and say "Yeah, it's okay but could you add this instead? Meh, I might not even use it... but thanks, it's really cool." (I've heard of this happening, and it must be pretty frustrating if you can't find a use for it yourself). I'd love to know logic... and I'd love to teach how to be a better visualist. I've tried, but it's tough to put into words what goes through my head as I'm creating. I'm actually usually thinking about food... or Tricia Helfer. Sometimes both. Dang... someone really needs to build be that "Anti-Rambler Timing Chip Thing-A-Ma-Jiggy" already!

2011-03-30 20:56:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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Did I ever mention I was considering publishing a tutorial? Not about logic itself, per se, but about techniques you can use to transfer your creative ideas into logical steps? I probably did, but I've forgotten. I should really get on that. For now, try this: Familiarise yourself with the workings of logic pieces on their own. Connect wires to different inputs/outputs, change their behaviour, add bits, take bits away. But only work on one component at a time - understanding comes easier in small amounts, you can then put the pieces of the puzzle together. Draw out a schematic, flow diagram, whatever, of what you want to happen. For example, "If the generator is off, magic mouth A ('Find the generator first&apos speaks when I grab the control panel, else magic mouth B ('powerup successful&apos speaks". List all your inputs (generator, control panel) and your outputs (magic mouths A and B) Work out the conditions for each event (Magic mouth A triggers when the generator is off AND when the control panel is grabbed; magic mouth B triggers when the generator is on AND the control panel is grabbed). Now, see if you can solve the problem using the logic tools. (I won't try because I've rambled enough already. A post sort of in that vein, but with ultra-clear illustrations to show the systematic thinking steps that best promote the transition from that wondrous concept in your head to the working level. </unhelpful ramble>

2011-03-30 21:09:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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OMG! I didnt read any of that! Just like logic, you all made it complacted! So im just gonna say I looked at others logic that was given away and kinda self taught myself...

2011-04-03 02:36:00 Author: BonBonBoi Posts: 246

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Now we need a Logic Pack 2 to explain all the logic to others. The closest so far is this. (http://lbp.me/v/ye4qhs)

2011-04-03 02:49:00 Author: iBubek Posts: 682

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Now we need a Logic Pack 2 to explain all the logic to others. The closest so far is this. (http://lbp.me/v/ye4qhs) Just checked it out... thanks for the heads up on it. Looks like it might be just the kind of thing I'm looking for, depending on how much description goes into each separate component. I mean, it's all well and good to have pre-made chips from the community... but that does nothing to teach us unless we start pulling things apart and looking at them ourselves (which I'm all about these days). It's nice to know there's a chip to do ___, but if I don't know why that chip works the way it does then I'm still no further ahead than I was before. Sure I can get the job done, but I'm still limited to what I can do and somewhat at the mercy of the community who has a grasp on these things better than I. Can't wait to start ripping that thing apart though... thanks!

2011-04-03 06:22:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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I learned by taking the approach of "what happens if I take this wire, stick it in the input of this tool whatever it's called, and then change this menu option which I don't really know what it does but it must do something cool". If it does what I want it to do after fiddling with it, then I don't really care how or why. It works with women, so why shouldn't it work with logic?

2011-04-04 14:18:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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(what do you mean there is more than 2 ways to make a tree that looks good? WTF man?) I laughed, so hard.

2011-04-04 14:27:00 Author: Bremnen Posts: 1800

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When I try to figure out logic, I just try everything out If it works, great. If not, then I just try some other connection. It's been good way of figuring out how to get things working.

2011-04-04 17:12:00 Author: jeperty Posts: 486

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