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#1

autonomous vehicles

Archive: 23 posts

I've been looking at some of the DARPA challenge events, and thought "wouldn't that be fun to do in LBP2?"

I want to gauge interest here before proceeding:

The Concept
Basically there would be a copyable level published that anyone can get. This would be an obstacle course of sorts designed to test vehicles. It can include everything, but ideally it would have water elements, hill climbs, and obstacles designed to test a vehicle to its fullest.

In that level there is a box that your vehicle must fit in once finished.

The Rules (subject to suggestions)

vehicles must be below a certain size (weight?)- in the level there will be a bounding box to determine whether the vehicle fits size requirements. This could also be suspended on a scale if we choose to implement a weight restriction as well.
No movers directly attached to the vehicle-Let's be honest, anyone can attach a mover and just blast across a level. where would the fun be in that? using a launchable winch or grappling hook that uses movers is permitted as long as the mover is not directly attached to the vehicle, or used on a tether or similar device where the mover directly affects the movement of the vehicle.
No rotators-The vehicles need to be susceptible to inertia and imbalance. gyroscopes and rotators make it far too easy to unrealistically accelerate and balance. The exception here would be for aiming of any devices or navigational elements. As long as the rotator does not change the orientation of the vehicle, directly or indirectly, it is allowed.
No driver- That should be obvious i suppose....all vehicles must run the course on their own.


The Contest
Obviously there is no prize being offered at this point. This is just for fun.

The basic level will be published at an agreed upon date, and all contestants will have one week to build a vehicle that can complete the course and that meets all criteria. The vehicle verification process is still up in the air. Initially I would say send them all to a certain account, but i dunno if people would want to do that. Maybe we could have the levels containing the entrant's vehicles published and locked until day of the event?

24 hours before the contest there will be a second level published, nd you have one day to tweak your vehicle to make sure it runs that as well.

The vehicles will be raced in twos in bracketed heats in a single or double elimination format (depending on how many entrants).

what would be needed
Obviously the level would have to be built. This would need to be a group project that is open to all participants, or designed by non participants to keep it fair. We would also need someone to video the heats to post (or stream if possible).



well, what do you guys think? all of this is up for discussion, and nothing is set in stone. I think it could be a very fun contest.		2011-03-27 02:31:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

I think that to keep in the style of LBP, there should be some creativity aspect to the contest as well. Split the score into several aspects, and highest scorer wins.

Perhaps a score based on performance in the level based on separate sections, so if a vehicle dominated the water section, but took forever in the hill climb, they would be awarded well for the water, but poor for the hill.

The creativity score would be determined by a group of judges who (hopefully) have no bias.

The level could contain the logic to calculate the scores of the vehicles. Creativity scores should probably be scored before the race (so as to stop someone from insisting on giving enough points to 'just' beat the opponent). Combine the two and determine the winner.

One question: How many vehicles can we submit? I've got 2 ideas I want to try out.		2011-03-27 03:21:00

Author:
SSTAGG1
Posts: 1136

perhaps it could be a dual contest where the vehicles are used to complete the level and "win" based on timed events. Then there is a separate contest where we publish a showcase level and let people vote in the comments. I would prefer to keep the main part of it strictly performance based. it eliminates any bias, or any perception of it. everything is open to discussion though.

A well rounded level with good obstacles should take care of averaging out strengths and weaknesses. plus we would all have access to the level for at least a week to build our vehicles for it. Having a few different levels, or even sections, for specific events could be very fun though. Nice Idea. Maybe we could place race gates between each section on the same level and highest score at the end of the level wins that heat?

for simplicity, i would say one vehicle per entrant.

My goal here is both selfish and in the spirit of the community. I want to make the best vehicle I can to run the course, but I also want to be able to see what everyone else can come up with so I can learn from them. It would be a really good learning experience for everyone involved since we would all have access to everyone else's vehicles, and be able to see different solutions to the same problems.		2011-03-27 03:47:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

So just to be clear, the vehicle must fit within the size limitation before and after the race......but not during? I've got a far fetched idea, though I'd rather keep it hidden until race day.

And how much logic can each vehicle use? My second idea needs allot of logic to operate (well, in my mind it does). To make it fully autonomous, it may get quite ridiculous.

Also, no emitters right?		2011-03-27 04:56:00

Author:
SSTAGG1
Posts: 1136

good point. emitters are questionable. if you want to use one to fire a grappling hook, then it will probably be OK. If you want to make a tiny flintstones car that then emits a larger one to carry it, then probably not.

I've not thought this out completely so it will take some input from everyone interested. i am imagining that the vehicle should fit in the box in its neutral starting state. If you can bend and fold it into optimus prime, then good for you. all components must initially fit in the box. you can't emit and create new parts afterward.

as far as logic goes, make it as complex as you like. I do think that the complexity of the level will dictate the amount of thermo available to each vehicle though. If the level takes up 30% of the thermo then i can absolutely see limiting each player to 30%. that is a huge amount of logic and material, so I don't see it being an issue.

Of course, this is all open or discussion if there is enough interest to proceed.		2011-03-27 07:07:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

Say i made vehicle that hovered, i could fly over everything with no problem.2011-03-27 16:25:00

Author:
jgsstl
Posts: 95

How is the course going to be laid out? Is Unless physical impact sensors are put on the car itself, there's no way for the vehicle to 'see' where it needs to go at all. Will there be a tag at the finish line?

I'm gonna be following this one, possibly even participating, but I'd need to know what inputs the vehicle will be receiving from the level in general so I know what options for programming are available... I may suck at physical level design, but i'm no slouch at SL programming 		2011-03-27 17:41:00

Author:
Vandalite
Posts: 20

Another thing I've notices is that the original design of the gyroscope was as a system to detect rotation. Is it fair to have a follower holographic with a gyro on it so that the vehicle can tell what its own rotation is? The gyro would not actually affect the vehicle, just the support 'ai' box following along with it...2011-03-27 17:45:00

Author:
Vandalite
Posts: 20

jgsstl, if you can somehow make a vehicle hover without using any movers, then you are really good

vandalite

glad to see more interest!

I really don't know how the course will be laid out. I would like to try to stay away from placing tags on the course itself, but that is a possibility. The idea is to have the vehicle be able to sense and adapt to the environment on its own in some way. I was thinking to use race gates for the start and ending, but i dunno. I suppose that is something everyone will have to decide on. The level will need to be designed and agreed upon by the participants, so that one person doesn't just stack it with really tough things their vehicle handles well. It's hard to say what it will look like.

There are some legitimate uses for rotators and gyroscopes, like possibly using them to turn wheels or or other parts attached to the vehicle. They could even be used to detect the orientation of the vehicle, so long as they do not physically alter it. To keep things simple, everything used will probably have to be directly attached to the vehicle in some way, even if it is just bolted on with lbp1 style bolts.		2011-03-27 19:16:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

This reminds me a lot of the contraption challenges. You might want to contact Nuclearfish and ask for some advice if you're going to run a contest like this - he might have some good tips.2011-03-28 16:41:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

Sounds cool. If you're serious about testing autonomous vehicles, you shouldn't publish the second level a day before to allow tweaking, though. People could just program a sequencer with the new course, in stead of having the vehicle truly figure out the course on its own.2011-03-28 16:58:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Challenge Accepted 2011-03-28 17:38:00

Author:
Flamento
Posts: 352

@Thegide awesome. will do, thanks!

@Rogar-good point. Since one vehicle has to complete both levels, I doubt it will be an issue. If a vehicle is obviously scripted, then I think we should all discuss whether or not it should qualify since it's not really reacting to the environment.


I'm gonna make a group in the next few days to help set this up. I'll add all the people that have shown interest here so it can remain as transparent as possible since I really want to run the course too. Just because you accept, doesn't mean you have to help plan. I'm just adding everyone so everyone has the same opportunities when it starts.		2011-03-30 04:42:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

Question: do these have to be top down or what? also, do followers count as movers?2011-03-30 18:21:00

Author:
LOLinator v1.02
Posts: 101

anything in the movers category counts as movers...even rockets. Followers may be an exception as long as they follow tags that are attached to the vehicle in some way.

The levels will be side view. Top down could be fun too though.		2011-03-31 07:20:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

I would find this cool and maybe you should get some creators (nudge, nudge) to make some examples for these people who are going to copy this level
I already have an Idea for a vehicle where when it hits water it could hover

Tanks and bazookas
Freedomf63		2011-03-31 15:22:00

Author:
Unknown User

This seems like fun I would enter if this actually takes off. Is this taking off?2011-03-31 22:30:00

Author:
LeastCreative
Posts: 49

I think the rockets should be exempt from the 'no movers' category. They're a pain to properly control, but they don't break enertia (it's quite easy to go out of control with them if you're not careful), and they're locked to local-axis movement -- you can't use a rocket to send an object an arbitrary direction without the use of a gyroscope which *is* disallowed unless you have balanced the vehicle *very* carefully... and with unknown terrain, i wouldn't use rockets for that kind of thrust anyway since it's too easy to go out of control.

I could see them being used as emergency brakes or traction control (to add 'weight' to the wheels of a vehicle climbing a tough hill for example). These would also be one of the only legal means to provide rotational momentum (righting a vehicle that flipped itself over for example).		2011-04-03 05:57:00

Author:
Vandalite
Posts: 20

You could always use some sort of lever to flip the vehicle, but the emergency breaking is a cool idea.

Any dates yet, cause I haven't started, and don't want to be left out.

Also, could we put a tag on each terrain type (water, mountain/jagged, flat, wall, etc). I'm going to use impact and tag sensors to act as the guidance system, but this would only work if it had something to detect.		2011-04-03 08:49:00

Author:
SSTAGG1
Posts: 1136

Ok, I created the group and invited you all. We can use this to discuss planning and how to get things set up fairly. Even if you just want to participate in it, please join so you can stay up to date.

@Freedomf63- having creators build sample levels may be a good idea. really though, we can all create our own test levels, so it shouldn't be a huge issue. We just need to decide on dimensions first.

@vandalite- Good point! It is much easier in LBP2 to create a balancing system for the rockets. TBH, I'd kinda like to see that.

@SSTAGG1 - No firm dates yet. I've just set up the group and invited everyone in the thread so we can work on it. I would really like to steer clear of the tags because it takes away from the idea that the vehicles are driving blind, but everything is up for discussion I suppose.		2011-04-03 11:53:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

would i be alowed join?
nd can ask first:
would large expansin and contraction be allowed? r		2011-04-03 14:26:00

Author:
TheLittleSoAndSo
Posts: 181

everyone is allowed to join.

Your vehicle must fit into the starting box in its starting configuration. Whatever it unfolds into is up to you.

You may not create a vehicle that suddenly emits a much larger one that then replaces the original. What you start with is mostly what you have to work with. An exception of this would be i you wanted to use an emitter to work as a grappling hook launcher.

BTW...the group link is http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/group.php?groupid=890 for anyone that has not joined.		2011-04-03 15:33:00

Author:
tdarb
Posts: 689

joined (:
and thanks for reply 		2011-04-04 07:50:00

Author:
TheLittleSoAndSo
Posts: 181


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