Archive: 23 posts

---

I tend to be a little overly critical with my feedback at times. But I believe critical feedback is worth 100x more than praise. Some other people disagree. Some examples of my feedback: Star TraCer 2: Space Voyage (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=52186-Star-TraCer-2-Space-Voyage&p=807628&viewfull=1#post807628) Ivory Tower: The Cascading Spire (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=52127-Ivory-Tower-The-Cascading-Spire&p=807693&viewfull=1#post807693) That Crack In the Metal (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=52310-That-Crack-In-the-Metal&p=802821&viewfull=1#post802821) Skunk Bunny Adventures: Swifown Chronicles (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=51868-Skunk-Bunny-Adventures-Swifown-Chronicles-(long-single-player-english-german)&p=801512&viewfull=1#post801512) Master Of Momentum (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=52619-Master-Of-Momentum-(With-20-PSN-voucher-challenge)&p=802923&viewfull=1#post802923) A Run in Autumn (1P) (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=51289-A-Run-in-Autumn-(1P)&p=796188&viewfull=1#post796188) Wooly Bully (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=50657-Wooly-Bully&p=785750&viewfull=1#post785750) Tiki Trail (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=50860-Tiki-Trail&p=786737&viewfull=1#post786737) Omni-Lights (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=48792-Omni-Lights-A-Lights-Out-based-puzzle-with-menu&p=777007&viewfull=1#post777007) OK Space Accident (LBP 2) (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=46584-OK-Space-Accident-(LBP-2)&p=762108&viewfull=1#post762108) Too harsh? Too long? Should I only review F4F levels? Just wondering if it's worth my time overly critiquing levels or not.

2011-03-18 10:06:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

---

I don't know about the examples listed there because I'm on my phone and can't be bothered looking but I've always found it to be excellent, personally. It's insightful and useful. You don't pander to the creator but at the same time you are not rude or insensitive. You say what you liked about the level and raise question marks over the parts that you wasn't so keen on. As a creator that's exactly what we should be looking for in my opinion. (Although tbf, I'm just going off what I remember of your Shoot! Jump! Die? review...maybe that was a one off good one

2011-03-18 10:23:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

---

But I believe critical feedback is worth 100x more than praise. Some other people disagree. This is something i agree 100% with . I also end up sometimes writing lengthy feedback so nothing wrong with that.

2011-03-18 12:16:00 Author: Vergil Posts: 155

---

Since you listed Wooly Bully...I thought your feedback was lacking and not because you were being critical but because it lacked any specific examples. This is supposed to be great feedback?!? "Great visuals, but the gameplay definitely needs work. I was faced with some basic errors throughout (awkward layers, multiple kinds of unfair/cheap deaths, hazardous parts look safe, and safe looking parts are hazardous, unskippable magic mouths/cutscenes, etc), which cost you my smiley face and level heart." At a certain point being overly critical is just nit-picking. Awkward layers? Give me a break...the only way to avoid this completely is to have nothing interesting in the level...you can't possibly plan for every weird thing someone might do while playing your level. There's plenty of places in the story levels where I got hung up on stuff and even had to pop...did that ruin the experience...nope. I think the overall experience has to be factored in and not just minor technical issues. As for unskippable cut-scences...is that really such a problem for a platformer you expect people to only play once? If you can't sit though the cut-scenes I created even once...I don't really want you playing my level. I'm in the middle of Dragon Age 2 now...can you skip the cut-scenes...heck no. Would it be nice to support skipping cut-scenes...sure, is it the huge black mark you've made it out to be...nope. With the amount of "problems" you listed it just comes across as being a jerk...the level isn't plagued with issues as you seem to suggest, the play/complete ratio can attest to that. I pretty much shrugged this review off because it gave me no specific action item. You then seemed offended that I didn't beg you for specifics. So, from my standpoint...if you want to improved your feedback...list some specific issues and avoid making sweeping generalities...that's just annoying. Oh, yeah...and the comment about not giving the level a smiley...that just comes across as being a prick, totally unnecessary and not helpful...you can leave that out. HTH

2011-03-18 14:36:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

---

But I believe critical feedback is worth 100x more than praise. Some other people disagree. TBH, I'd say it depends on the creator - some actually want a critique, and others are really just after an ego massage, and if the latter, I won't usually bother. And if you think yours are critical, check out this (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=23583-ComphCruiser-Beta-Test-and-Level-Naming&p=409472&viewfull=1#post409472) and this (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=23583-ComphCruiser-Beta-Test-and-Level-Naming&p=409985&viewfull=1#post409985), which were the two parts of my feedback for one of Comph's levels - I don't think I said a single nice thing about the level.

2011-03-18 15:40:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

---

Aya, Those are both examples of what I'd consider great feedback. You've been very specific and presented the information in a simple list. This doesn't mean as the creator I'd feel obligated to address every issue cited, I'd decide how important each is vs. or how easy it is to fix, etc. I would be very happy getting such detailed feedback as this because your tone/verbiage wouldn't get my hackles up. When I publish a level I'm basically done/bored with it...so I'm really only looking to address major issues...if it was in a beta/preview stage that's a different story...but all feedback is always helpful for the next level...

2011-03-18 16:02:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

---

I think whether it is a beta stage or a full publish is a very good point here. Especially with Aya's level of feedback. If someone gave me that level of feedback when it's still in beta stage (let's face it, some of it is definitely nitpicky!) I'd be delighted. If someone nitpicked to that degree in an actual showcase thread when I considered the level to be fully finished, I'd probably see it as a bit much and unnecessary. I think at a certain point you have to appreciate what the creator was trying to achieve and think about whether that tiny little blemish really dampened the experience of the level. Your tone and relationship with the person your reviewing also has an impact. For example, Aya knew Comphy well when he gave that feedback, Comphy knew that it was all with good intentions and to help him improve the level. If you gave that feedback to someone you'd never spoke to before, it would be hard to know how to take it. Hence why the tone of what you write is also important!

2011-03-18 16:21:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

---

I think whether it is a beta stage or a full publish is a very good point here. Especially with Aya's level of feedback. True. I'd never give that level of feedback for a published level, cos I know the creator (most likely) isn't gonna bother fixing anything but the major issues, so why waste my time? Your tone and relationship with the person your reviewing also has an impact. For example, Aya knew Comphy well when he gave that feedback... TBH, that wasn't really the reason it was so nitpicky - the reason for that was that I asked him (over MSN) how picky he wanted me to be, he said "very, very picky", and I obliged. If he hadn't said that, the list would've been much shorter.

2011-03-18 16:34:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

---

TBH, that wasn't really the reason it was so nitpicky - the reason for that was that I asked him (over MSN) how picky he wanted me to be, he said "very, very picky", and I obliged. If he hadn't said that, the list would've been much shorter. Very true! The fact that you was talking to him on MSN lends itself to my point of knowing each other well in the first place though. Also, the fact that you had previously discussed being that picky before you posted it is somewhat related to what I said about knowing how the creator is going to respond/react to the feedback

2011-03-18 17:10:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

---

As long as the feedback is constructive, then it benefits both parties. The designer gets their level critiqued from a different perspective, and you get the experience from analyzing their work. You can always learn something from looking at different designs. Just make sure to just as critical of your own work (if not more). One of the problems with many of these community designers are that they either aren't critical of their own work, or they just don't know how to be critical.

2011-03-18 17:13:00 Author: DarkDedede Posts: 672

---

I think I have posted fifty posts or more in the last month...and most all are slightly lacking in seriousness. But I can say in all honesty that your feedback is perfect for me. So keep up the good work, if more people gave great feedback, I would not be placing my less than serious posts that may at times question other poster's genetic simularities to particularly dense rocks...ok I would still be posting that. So keep up the great work! EDIT: Perfect can always be better but just saying I have had some of the best feedback from you on my levels, and seeing as you are not getting the F4F back I would call it above and beyond the call of duty.

2011-03-18 17:58:00 Author: celsus Posts: 822

---

I tend to be a little overly critical with my feedback at times. But I believe critical feedback is worth 100x more than praise. Some other people disagree. I think that's true, but to not even acknowledge the things that the creator did right is equally useless. I'd also like to preface this novel I wrote by saying that it seems to me that you review with the best of intentions, so don't take any of this the wrong way. I, for one, will be looking forward to your review when I finally get my level published. The amount of impact that a negative aspect of a level has on me is indirectly proportional to the amount of ambition that went into it. In other words, the more ambitious the level, the less likely I am to pick it apart. If the level strives to do things that are above and beyond other things I've seen, and the core mechanics work, I can forgive a lot of problems. Let's be reasonable about what we're dealing with here: These aren't teams of people that each specialize in something different coming together for a massive project (clans and Hansel and Gretelbot excluded); it's usually one person with limited spare time that had an idea and ran with it, often alienating a huge amount of their social life in the process. Some people are better at some things than other things, and they may very well have done the best they could with the aspects that they aren't great at. In that regard, dwelling on all those things isn't going to change anything. Mentioning them certainly doesn't hurt and can only make the level better, but as I said before, pointing out things that the creator did right helps in the exact same way. So, like I said, a more groundbreaking effort gets a more lenient view from me. Is it fair to all the simple but fun platformers out there? Maybe not, but as someone who's spent a lot of time in the creator, I can't help but appreciate the things that are outside the box in terms of development. I know a lot about the tools we have, and to create something unique inside the limitations we have is interesting to me (I know the limitations are essentially gone now, but getting the most out of the tools is still an achievement, er, trophy ). There's also a lot to be said about the context in which things are written. Putting together a laundry-list of bullet-points of every negative aspect of a level does make it read like an overwhelmingly negative review, even if -at the end- you write "Other than that, this level is awesome!". I mean, when you read a review of a bad game at a review site, the tone of the review is almost always the same: A list of everything that made the game suck so bad that the author couldn't even be bothered writing about the good stuff. You, as the reader, shouldn't care about the good stuff. You don't want to play this game, and here's why, etc. My advice is (only since you asked), instead of clumping all the negatives together in one list, take the section of the level in which you found the negative and point out what was right and wrong with it. Did you not like certain mechanics, or was it the entire idea of that section that you didn't care for? (This could lead to lengthy reviews, but you certainly don't seem to take issue with that! ) Furthermore, do you have any suggestions to make it better? In reading your reviews, I've noticed that you seem to write them for the author. I would almost say that they tend to read like bug reports in some cases. That's not a bad thing, but keep in mind that your reviews aren't only being read by the author. If you PM'ed your list to the author, that's different, but if you drop a huge list of faults in their level showcase thread, you're certainly going to influence other readers. They'll likely focus on the problems you've listed while playing, or they may not even try the level at all. So keep that in mind as well. Anyway, I'm long-winded, so I'll sum up. Critical feedback is a must to correct imperfections throughout a level, but positive feedback should also be included to ensure that more of the "good stuff" comes through. Some people, especially during testing, may like to see a clear, concise list of problems, but more often than not, they want your opinion in your review, not just a list of things that do and don't work. Then again, my review of your review could be completely wrong!

2011-03-18 19:09:00 Author: nextlevel88 Posts: 149

---

I don't see it like that, not disagreeing with your post nextlevel88, but in the feedback he has done I look for the negatives because I am looking for a debugging, I need to know what to fix. I do like the positives on the reviews, but I need the negatives to fix things. It is true that game testers are asked what they like so they can see if certain things are strengths so they can see if areas are working, or if they should focus on certain aspects more so (kind of like how Warhawk dropped its storyline because they vs play was a gem, but the storyline was not). I just have never read his feedback and left thinking it was a bad level because of the review...and I figure that others reading his feedback would know it is feedback and not a "Reveiw" in the reveiwers section...where they actually score levels. Also I would like to add that the fact Midinight works hard at finishing the levels is a big thing, and he does list positives in his feedback.

2011-03-18 20:33:00 Author: celsus Posts: 822

---

I can't argue that point either. There is a difference between a review and feedback. I guess a lot of it lies with the expectations of the designer; did they ask what's broken, or did they ask whether you'd classify it as good or bad, and why? Also, like I said in the very beginning, I'd appreciate the feedback (hell, I'd appreciate the play!), but I assumed that the reason this thread exists in the first place is because people accused him of being too harsh. Perhaps those people are looking for less of a bug report and more of a review of content. In that case, midnight, it's not your job to cater to what they're looking for. Just know that what you provide may not be it, but it'll certainly be appreciated by many. Like I said, I'm hoping you find time for mine if I ever get it done. I'm expecting good things from you. (It's a HEIST game...)

2011-03-18 22:44:00 Author: nextlevel88 Posts: 149

---

I don't know about the examples listed there because I'm on my phone and can't be bothered looking but I've always found it to be excellent, personally. It's insightful and useful. You don't pander to the creator but at the same time you are not rude or insensitive. You say what you liked about the level and raise question marks over the parts that you wasn't so keen on. As a creator that's exactly what we should be looking for in my opinion. (Although tbf, I'm just going off what I remember of your Shoot! Jump! Die? review...maybe that was a one off good one *checks* It seems it contained some fairly typical feedback of mine. I bet the slight change in gameplay style to your norm helped win me over. Since you listed Wooly Bully...I thought your feedback was lacking and not because you were being critical but because it lacked any specific examples. This is supposed to be great feedback?!? "Great visuals, but the gameplay definitely needs work. I was faced with some basic errors throughout (awkward layers, multiple kinds of unfair/cheap deaths, hazardous parts look safe, and safe looking parts are hazardous, unskippable magic mouths/cutscenes, etc), which cost you my smiley face and level heart." I never said it was great feedback, just feedback. When I play a level, and those kind of mistakes (or "minor errors") compound over the course of the level, (especially coming from an above average creator like yourself) it makes the overall experience worse imo. I can understand that my feedback can sound like a bad review and may put off other players from playing the level, but all they have to do is scroll up/down the page a little, and see the glowing reviews from 99% of the others. I am a tougher critic with experienced/favourite creators than anyone else. They produce great levels, yes, but imo, they can be better. At a certain point being overly critical is just nit-picking. Awkward layers? Give me a break...the only way to avoid this completely is to have nothing interesting in the level...you can't possibly plan for every weird thing someone might do while playing your level. There's plenty of places in the story levels where I got hung up on stuff and even had to pop...did that ruin the experience...nope. I think the overall experience has to be factored in and not just minor technical issues. You can sure try. I know I do. Some jumps don't look natural, and I do my best to fix them. Yes, I agree that you can get hung up or stuck on story levels, but it only happens once or twice throughout the entire level. This is the standard I believe we as creators should aim for and surpass. As for unskippable cut-scences...is that really such a problem for a platformer you expect people to only play once? If you can't sit though the cut-scenes I created even once...I don't really want you playing my level. I'm in the middle of Dragon Age 2 now...can you skip the cut-scenes...heck no. Would it be nice to support skipping cut-scenes...sure, is it the huge black mark you've made it out to be...nope. You only expect people to play your level once? If level = enjoyable + replayability = my level heart. I can sit through any cutscene once. It's just when I -have- to rewatch it is when it ticks me off. I do believe unskippable cutscenes are a black mark on the video game industry. And just when said industry is finally making some progress, LBP2 is released, and there are cutscenes for Africa. The least the creator can do is make them skippable. I also feel it is partly MM's fault for not including a skip option on sequencers, like they do on magic mouths. With the amount of "problems" you listed it just comes across as being a jerk...the level isn't plagued with issues as you seem to suggest, the play/complete ratio can attest to that. I pretty much shrugged this review off because it gave me no specific action item. You then seemed offended that I didn't beg you for specifics. Oh, not at all, these problems are all minor. Only major bugs would effect the completion ratio. So, from my standpoint...if you want to improved your feedback...list some specific issues and avoid making sweeping generalities...that's just annoying. Oh, yeah...and the comment about not giving the level a smiley...that just comes across as being a prick, totally unnecessary and not helpful...you can leave that out. HTH Perhaps I was just having an off day when I played your level. If you look at my other reviews they list specifics. Or maybe it's because I feel compounded minor errors create a major one (which leads to frustration in my brain), which you feel is not a problem. Which is fine by me. I thought the smiley thing was worth leaving in, as I would want to know why someone didn't think it was worth rating up. Please note I didn't rate it down at all either. Or maybe I was being a bit of a jerk that day. You made that chipmunk level correct? I know that has replayability, surely the effort in hiding those acorns is not for the player who only plays it once. Why is replayability not a priority for you? I know many people who heart just for it. TBH, I'd say it depends on the creator - some actually want a critique, and others are really just after an ego massage, and if the latter, I won't usually bother. And if you think yours are critical, check out this (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=23583-ComphCruiser-Beta-Test-and-Level-Naming&p=409472&viewfull=1#post409472) and this (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=23583-ComphCruiser-Beta-Test-and-Level-Naming&p=409985&viewfull=1#post409985), which were the two parts of my feedback for one of Comph's levels - I don't think I said a single nice thing about the level. That is helpful feedback imo. I don't really see the need to list the good points, and the creator definitely won't cut them without reason. Aya, Those are both examples of what I'd consider great feedback. You've been very specific and presented the information in a simple list. This doesn't mean as the creator I'd feel obligated to address every issue cited, I'd decide how important each is vs. or how easy it is to fix, etc. I would be very happy getting such detailed feedback as this because your tone/verbiage wouldn't get my hackles up. When I publish a level I'm basically done/bored with it...so I'm really only looking to address major issues...if it was in a beta/preview stage that's a different story...but all feedback is always helpful for the next level... Surely the major issues would have been found in beta testing? Then all that's left is the minor, and if you don't want to streamline those, why bother with the F4F tag? (now not just talking to fullofwin here) "thanks i'll keep it in mind for my next level" etc. That sometimes ticks me off a little in F4F levels. Why would you label the level F4F if you are not going to bother to address any issues? I think whether it is a beta stage or a full publish is a very good point here. Especially with Aya's level of feedback. If someone gave me that level of feedback when it's still in beta stage (let's face it, some of it is definitely nitpicky!) I'd be delighted. If someone nitpicked to that degree in an actual showcase thread when I considered the level to be fully finished, I'd probably see it as a bit much and unnecessary. I think at a certain point you have to appreciate what the creator was trying to achieve and think about whether that tiny little blemish really dampened the experience of the level. Your tone and relationship with the person your reviewing also has an impact. For example, Aya knew Comphy well when he gave that feedback, Comphy knew that it was all with good intentions and to help him improve the level. If you gave that feedback to someone you'd never spoke to before, it would be hard to know how to take it. Hence why the tone of what you write is also important! Yeah, two good points there, however it's hard to find that line in the sand in each one. When does a minor problem become major? How personally is this new/unknown creator (in relationship the the feedback giver) going to perceive the tone? Must I add to the end of "jokes" for clarity? True. I'd never give that level of feedback for a published level, cos I know the creator (most likely) isn't gonna bother fixing anything but the major issues, so why waste my time? TBH, that wasn't really the reason it was so nitpicky - the reason for that was that I asked him (over MSN) how picky he wanted me to be, he said "very, very picky", and I obliged. If he hadn't said that, the list would've been much shorter. I think that depends on the creator. I have met people around here who are at opposite ends of the spectrum, and it's impossible to guess where that new creator sits. Personally I want players to rip apart my level no matter which stage it is at, as I want it to be the best it can be. As long as the feedback is constructive, then it benefits both parties. The designer gets their level critiqued from a different perspective, and you get the experience from analyzing their work. You can always learn something from looking at different designs. Just make sure to just as critical of your own work (if not more). One of the problems with many of these community designers are that they either aren't critical of their own work, or they just don't know how to be critical. Yeah, I enjoy critiquing levels, as I also benefit from learning about their design choices, definitely win win imo. I know I am tough on my own levels (or at least my current one) and by it's nature it will take longer to test, which I will spend the extra time testing. I think if I released a level with my style of minor errors I would be shot. At least I hope so. There's some motivation in there for me. I think I have posted fifty posts or more in the last month...and most all are slightly lacking in seriousness. But I can say in all honesty that your feedback is perfect for me. So keep up the good work, if more people gave great feedback, I would not be placing my less than serious posts that may at times question other poster's genetic simularities to particularly dense rocks...ok I would still be posting that. So keep up the great work! EDIT: Perfect can always be better but just saying I have had some of the best feedback from you on my levels, and seeing as you are not getting the F4F back I would call it above and beyond the call of duty. Thanks man. Most of the time I don't post in F4F for the returns, but in an attempt to help the creator, as I know getting plays/feedback can be tough. Plus it helps me learn what works in level design. I think that's true, but to not even acknowledge the things that the creator did right is equally useless. I'd also like to preface this novel I wrote by saying that it seems to me that you review with the best of intentions, so don't take any of this the wrong way. I, for one, will be looking forward to your review when I finally get my level published. Thanks for the great post, glad you want some feedback even though you may disagree on some points. B) The amount of impact that a negative aspect of a level has on me is indirectly proportional to the amount of ambition that went into it. In other words, the more ambitious the level, the less likely I am to pick it apart. If the level strives to do things that are above and beyond other things I've seen, and the core mechanics work, I can forgive a lot of problems. Let's be reasonable about what we're dealing with here: These aren't teams of people that each specialize in something different coming together for a massive project (clans and Hansel and Gretelbot excluded); it's usually one person with limited spare time that had an idea and ran with it, often alienating a huge amount of their social life in the process. So, like I said, a more groundbreaking effort gets a more lenient view from me. Is it fair to all the simple but fun platformers out there? Maybe not, but as someone who's spent a lot of time in the creator, I can't help but appreciate the things that are outside the box in terms of development. I know a lot about the tools we have, and to create something unique inside the limitations we have is interesting to me (I know the limitations are essentially gone now, but getting the most out of the tools is still an achievement, er, trophy ). I guess I differ to you in that. I feel if someone is attempting something that is different, they need to test it more thoroughly than usual. But yes, some projects can be limited by the LBP engine. I will still raise my points, but will understand if they are not possible to implement. Some people are better at some things than other things, and they may very well have done the best they could with the aspects that they aren't great at. In that regard, dwelling on all those things isn't going to change anything. Mentioning them certainly doesn't hurt and can only make the level better, but as I said before, pointing out things that the creator did right helps in the exact same way. Hmm. If it's a new/young creator I tend to go for that complement sandwich. (Mmm..sandwich..*drool*) Positive notes are important for them, that's a good point. I'm sure it will encourage them to keep creating.. I shall keep that in mind. There's also a lot to be said about the context in which things are written. Putting together a laundry-list of bullet-points of every negative aspect of a level does make it read like an overwhelmingly negative review, even if -at the end- you write "Other than that, this level is awesome!". I mean, when you read a review of a bad game at a review site, the tone of the review is almost always the same: A list of everything that made the game suck so bad that the author couldn't even be bothered writing about the good stuff. You, as the reader, shouldn't care about the good stuff. You don't want to play this game, and here's why, etc. My advice is (only since you asked), instead of clumping all the negatives together in one list, take the section of the level in which you found the negative and point out what was right and wrong with it. Did you not like certain mechanics, or was it the entire idea of that section that you didn't care for? (This could lead to lengthy reviews, but you certainly don't seem to take issue with that! ) Furthermore, do you have any suggestions to make it better? I have been adding add more solutions to my feedback (as it came up in my feedback of my sig level (I would be interested in what you think of that btw)) and it seems to help. Perhaps (some of) the problem is people are taking my feedback/bug list as a review. Maybe I should put the list in a spoiler tag or something.. But it is F4F, not R4R. If I want to write a review, I do so in game. In reading your reviews, I've noticed that you seem to write them for the author. I would almost say that they tend to read like bug reports in some cases. That's not a bad thing, but keep in mind that your reviews aren't only being read by the author. If you PM'ed your list to the author, that's different, but if you drop a huge list of faults in their level showcase thread, you're certainly going to influence other readers. They'll likely focus on the problems you've listed while playing, or they may not even try the level at all. So keep that in mind as well. I can see where you're coming from, but don't agree 100%. I always wait till a few reviews (which like always are mostly positive) pile up on the thread in an attempt to avoid this problem. I also white out my text sometimes if problems (or should I say nitpicks?) have been fixed and my post is on the first page/top of a new page to help them out a little. I don't feel even a big bug list of mine affects the average player, when 99% of the other reviews are overwhelmingly positive. PMs just get messy imo, not sure how to address the other players reading my posts without spoiler tags, which are troublesome to quote if I remember correctly. But other players may learn with the creator if they can see my issues.. *files away in brain to think about later* Anyway, I'm long-winded, so I'll sum up. Critical feedback is a must to correct imperfections throughout a level, but positive feedback should also be included to ensure that more of the "good stuff" comes through. Some people, especially during testing, may like to see a clear, concise list of problems, but more often than not, they want your opinion in your review, not just a list of things that do and don't work. Then again, my review of your review could be completely wrong! You mean your review of my feedback. (note smilies indicating a joke) In my summation, imo other players post enough of the happy/nice reviews (sometimes to a fault) on my behalf. Creators don't grow as much (or as fast) with purely positive feedback, which is why I feel my bug lists are important enough to post. However you guys/gals have definitely raised some issues for me to think about. Thanks again for your detailed critiques of my critiques! The more the merrier. --- EDIT: I can't argue that point either. There is a difference between a review and feedback. I guess a lot of it lies with the expectations of the designer; did they ask what's broken, or did they ask whether you'd classify it as good or bad, and why? Also, like I said in the very beginning, I'd appreciate the feedback (hell, I'd appreciate the play!), but I assumed that the reason this thread exists in the first place is because people accused him of being too harsh. Perhaps those people are looking for less of a bug report and more of a review of content. In that case, midnight, it's not your job to cater to what they're looking for. Just know that what you provide may not be it, but it'll certainly be appreciated by many. Like I said, I'm hoping you find time for mine if I ever get it done. I'm expecting good things from you. (It's a HEIST game...) You read my mind, haha. That second paragraph is a very valid point, cheers for that. Ha. A heist level eh? Don't expect me to go easy on you then. The more I like something, the harsher I am. I'll keep a lookout, but there is always the possibility it will get missed in the sea of levels, so feel free to note/pm me when it's out.

2011-03-18 22:44:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

---

To be honest, being one of the honoured few who've received your feedback I have to say that I was glad for it. It was, as you put it, constructive and harsh, which is usually a bad thing since people tend to do it in a "I'm better than you" kind of way, but you don't so I liked it.

2011-03-18 22:58:00 Author: JonnysToyRobot Posts: 324

---

midnight, I looked through some of your other reviews and I think you were having an off day when you left feedback on mine, most of the others seemed more complete/helpful. One thing is certainly true, you are equally critical of your own work. As for me being able to fix major problems in a beta publishing...who's going to beta test my levels? I do the best I can with them and then unlease them on the masses. I don't have a circle of PSN friends to bounce ideas off of and get input from while it's still early enough to steer the levels development. Why did I use F4F this time. I don't know...I thought it would be nice that someone who played my level could specifically request that I play a level theirs...I didn't do it to ask anyone to play mine and I didn't think a F4F level posted to the showcase was any different in any other regard...I've gotten feedback when it wasn't F4F? In the case of Wooly Bully, i did have specific concerns with the boss battle which I mentioned in the initial posting...and if you look I did fix numerous issues that people cited so it's not that I didn't want any feedback. As for replayability, I didn't really hide any secrets in this one...and I don't think the point bubbles encourage going for a high score. It was a level I expected most people to play only once and hopefully get a little chuckle from...the fact some have played it all the way through 6 times in a row boggles the mind. At the state the level is in with the thermo and my own goofy way I hooked things up whilte trying to learn how to make a cutscence by trial and error, I wasn't about to tear the sequencers apart to try to make them skippable. I'll certainly try to accomdate this in my next level...I don't see anything wrong with saying so. If it's not a work-in -progress there's a limit to how much I'm willing to change...I'm always afraid of breaking something. "Yes, I agree that you can get hung up or stuck on story levels, but it only happens once or twice throughout the entire level. This is the standard I believe we as creators should aim for and surpass." If you got hung up on my scenery more than a couple times you have to tell me where...I just don't see how it's possible...most of the level is platforms 3 layers thick?!?

2011-03-18 23:39:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

---

^ That guy's name. That's what I think of your Feedback. :kz: ^

2011-03-19 00:56:00 Author: IronSkullKid99 Posts: 515

---

midnight, I looked through some of your other reviews and I think you were having an off day when you left feedback on mine, most of the others seemed more complete/helpful. One thing is certainly true, you are equally critical of your own work. As for me being able to fix major problems in a beta publishing...who's going to beta test my levels? I do the best I can with them and then unlease them on the masses. I don't have a circle of PSN friends to bounce ideas off of and get input from while it's still early enough to steer the levels development. Why did I use F4F this time. I don't know...I thought it would be nice that someone who played my level could specifically request that I play a level theirs...I didn't do it to ask anyone to play mine and I didn't think a F4F level posted to the showcase was any different in any other regard...I've gotten feedback when it wasn't F4F? In the case of Wooly Bully, i did have specific concerns with the boss battle which I mentioned in the initial posting...and if you look I did fix numerous issues that people cited so it's not that I didn't want any feedback. As for replayability, I didn't really hide any secrets in this one...and I don't think the point bubbles encourage going for a high score. It was a level I expected most people to play only once and hopefully get a little chuckle from...the fact some have played it all the way through 6 times in a row boggles the mind. At the state the level is in with the thermo and my own goofy way I hooked things up whilte trying to learn how to make a cutscence by trial and error, I wasn't about to tear the sequencers apart to try to make them skippable. I'll certainly try to accomdate this in my next level...I don't see anything wrong with saying so. If it's not a work-in -progress there's a limit to how much I'm willing to change...I'm always afraid of breaking something. "Yes, I agree that you can get hung up or stuck on story levels, but it only happens once or twice throughout the entire level. This is the standard I believe we as creators should aim for and surpass." If you got hung up on my scenery more than a couple times you have to tell me where...I just don't see how it's possible...most of the level is platforms 3 layers thick?!? *Regular Show nod* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nySkau-deI) I highly recommend getting some friends to play through your level before release. I and many others find it really helpful. I always try to leave some thermo for potential fixes also. It is your level, and you don't have to add their ideas, but it's just handy to have a buddy to invite over (perhaps after you finish a section) to judge the difficulty or whatever. Then you won't have to worry about major bugs, as they will most likely be picked up before "official" release. Some of the issues that you fixed (snowballs/snowball layers/tree layer switching) were some that came up during my playthrough. You may not have more than 1 or 2 layer switching annoyances, but other minor details added up and marred by experience, even a little. I know points/bubbles encourage replayability. I have a little healthy rivalry going with shropshire_lass, especially in those well made levels with treasure hunts in them. And bubble combos are a bunch of fun. Why not aim for more replayability? You will get more plays, hearts, feedback, respect, etc. It's a win for you and the players. Hmm. Yes, I can understand about the potential for stuff to break while "fixing" certain areas/mechanics. And first time messing with certain elements are sure to be a little rough around the edges. You should see my emitted wobbly platforms in my deja q, ha ha, certainly not optimised, but like you I didn't want to break it for only a little extra thermo in return. Perhaps sequenced cutscenes are tough to skip logic wise. I haven't experimented with them yet but I read it's possible. Perhaps the majority of the fault lies with MM and not the creator.. Anyways, I have re-queued your level, so you can expect a breakdown from me sometime. Feel free to add me on PSN if you ever need a beta tester.

2011-03-19 02:50:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

---

I guess I differ to you in that. I feel if someone is attempting something that is different, they need to test it more thoroughly than usual. That I agree with. I mentioned that if it's different and the core mechanics work, I'm more lenient. I wasn't really clear on the rest though. What I meant was, if something is logically advanced but mediocre in visuals, I'll overlook one for the other. If there's some creative use of physics or AI but the story is a snoozer, I'll focus on what worked if it was impressive enough. I'm not saying you can forgive an ambitious project that doesn't work just because it's ambitious. I didn't explain that very well. But it is F4F, not R4R. If I want to write a review, I do so in game. As I said in my second post, there is a difference between 'feedback' and 'review'; a difference I didn't really recognize in my first post. You certainly don't make any claims that your feedback represents the absolute opinions of whether or not a level is good or bad. And really, I think that's the true strength of your feedback. You really do tend to be objective; either things work for you when you played it or they didn't. That is certainly useful information to anyone trying to fix things. Ha. A heist level eh? Don't expect me to go easy on you then. The more I like something, the harsher I am. I'll keep a lookout, but there is always the possibility it will get missed in the sea of levels, so feel free to note/pm me when it's out. Well, it's about done, so it'll be out soon, but I won't nag you about it. If it gets enough interest to get some plays, there's a reason for that; if it doesn't, there's a reason for that too. We'll see how it goes. Anyway, thanks for the discussion. As a former student of language arts (can't tell that by my overly-wordy responses, huh?), it was a fun dialog.

2011-03-19 04:40:00 Author: nextlevel88 Posts: 149

---

Lol, I just realized I may have posted on teh post you got flak for..or atleast one of them. The best part is I said something like I agree with the above poster and then added even more things. I was helping him find bugs and didn't even realize it was your post above mine. I think the level creator was more than happy with your info, but one of the level's fans thought you were being overly critical. Just had to post that in because I just ran across it while replying to his last posting.

2011-03-19 07:20:00 Author: celsus Posts: 822

---

Should I only review F4F levels? In my opinion, unless there is a significant bug to report, one should curb the tendency to say anything negative about a finished level unless the author is explicitly asking for feedback. Also, in my opinion, in-game reviews don't count for a whole lot. I don't think I've ever made a decision on whether to play or not play a level based on user-submitted reviews.

2011-03-19 18:59:00 Author: zabel99 Posts: 179

---

Well I've been following your feedback for a number of months now and I honestly believe it's some of the best in the Level Showcase. As you point out a lot of feedback given is only praise (I'm guilty of this myself) or else is a poor one liner followed by a request for feedback in return. The showcase needs someone like you to redress the balance. You've obviously given a lot of thought to what makes a good level and your points are usually insightful and constructively meant. I've also noticed that you always try and say something constructive with a novice creator. Most creators seem to be grateful for the advice and address the things you've pointed out which I think you should take as evidence of its value. I know that if I were a creator I would want you (though with some trepidation on my part) to give your brand of feedback on any level of mine. You certainly have some "pet peeves" (layer switching, cameras breaking combos, unskippable cut scenes) but most of them are pretty justified. Also, everyone has an occasional off day and I think one or two of your posts in the last couple of weeks came across as a little harsher than perhaps you intended. The ones I'm thinking of were very brief and so perhaps sounded more dismissive and abrupt than the longer lists where you point out the positives as well as the negatives or where you offer suggestions for improvement. It's good that you started this thread as I think it demonstrates how conscientiously you take what do and it's been an interesting discussion. However, in all seriousness, your feedback is excellent 99% of the time and is given freely and generously, mostly without any request for feedback in return. Yours is a distinctive voice in the Showcase and would be missed if you stopped doing what you do!

2011-03-22 03:58:00 Author: shropshirelass Posts: 1455

Posts: 1077139    Threads: 69970    Members: 9661    Archive-Date: 2019-01-19

Aus dem Archiv wurden alle persönlichen Daten wie Name, Anschrift, Email etc. - aber auch sämtliche Inhalte wie z.B. persönliche Nachrichten - entfernt.
Die Nutzung dieser Webseite erfolgt ohne Speicherung personenbezogener Daten. Es werden keinerlei Cookies, Logs, 3rd-Party-Plugins etc. verwendet.