Archive: 19 posts

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For those who don't know, a "MetroidVania" is a non-linear action/adventure exemplified by the Metroid and Castlevania series' of games in which you explore a large map including a good deal of backtracking as you gain upgrades and abilities that allow you to gain access to previously inaccessible areas of the map. I'm working on a MetroidVania now so I've been doing a lot of thinking about what makes for a successful MetroidVania and how it can be accomplished in LBP. Some of my thoughts: - Backtracking, which would ordinarily be tedious, is made fun through presenting a variety of different enemies that the player must defeat as they travel, and very importantly, the enemies drop things that the player wants. In Metroid, ammo and life refills. In Castlevania, equipment and rare items. For a game made in LBP, the obvious drop to use would be score bubbles, or simply a score modifier. Although that would result in a scoreboard with the irony in which the players who spent the most time being confused and wandering aimlessly end up with the biggest score when they finally complete the level. But is that an issue worth worrying about? - Another thing that makes exploring and backtracking fun is the discovery of secrets waiting in every nook and cranny. Metroid in particular has a large bag of tricks for this: walls that need to be bombed, walls that need to be shot, invisible walls, fake lava leading to hidden rooms, unconventional uses of special weapons in certain places, etc. The most common way creators tend to hide prizes in LBP is by obscuring them with a piece of scenery. I'm sure I'll be doing a lot of that, but I like the idea of leaving prizes that are in plain sight but which can only be obtained after acquiring a given upgrade. - A MetroidVania uses recurring obstacles throughout the map. For instance, a gap in the ceiling you can only fly up to once you have an upgrade that transforms you into a bat, or a block with a marking that indicates that it can only be destroyed with a power bomb. These obstacles need to be easily recognizable so that when the player has the upgrade that they need, they will think, "Oh! Now I can go back to all the places where I saw that!" (I've also noticed that a good MetroidVania will often force the player to use a newly acquired upgrade in order to exit the area where the player found the upgrade, which helps the player get acquainted with their new ability) Probably the biggest potential problem for a MetroidVania made in LBP will be that non-trivial portion of your audience who ups and quits the minute they encounter an obstacle they can't get past. In Metroid or Castlevania, when you're stuck you can spend 5 minutes to look at a FAQ which tells you where to go next, but your LBP audience doesn't have that luxury. Worse, they've all played levels that really were impossible to complete due to bugs or oversights on the part of the creator, and unfortunately, that's the expectation a lot of them will have. What I'll probably end up doing is going out of my way to be obvious. Like leaving jarringly obvious hints such as, "Hmm, there's a pit here. If you had a grappling hook you could swing over it...." Those are some of my thoughts. I'm wondering what others think about the viability of MetroidVania's in LBP2 and strategies for making them work? I know it's gonna be a challenge. I mean, how many good MetroidVanias in the community have you seen?

2011-03-09 16:23:00 Author: zabel99 Posts: 179

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I'm working on one as a homage to metroid in particular. You are welcome to join my team if you like. You seem to have expertise with level design and ideas. I would gladly welcome that input. I am working on the logic for samus and her morphball. Coming along very nicely too! My psn is Shadow_Wolf_1987 if you're interested.

2011-03-09 20:43:00 Author: Shadow_Wolf_1987 Posts: 108

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I'm working on a Metroidvania-styled project as well, though it's more of an original project. Right now, I'm working on the sackbot that the player would be controlling throughout each level in the entire series, though I do have some ideas on how to make a Metroidvania-styled series of levels viable: Transitioning between areas: Normally, a project of this magnitude would be impossible to fit in just one LBP2 level, but I think that it's possible to do such a project by splitting it up into multiple interlinked levels. How would these levels be interlinked? Using level linkers could work. However, if these transition points are 2-way, then you may have to duplicate some of your levels in order for the illusion to be complete. This gets even more complicated if your character gradually gains new abilities, since you'd probably need multiple level links for any given area that you'd like to transition to: namely, one for each state that you'd expect your character to be at. Saving progress: Depending on how long your project is going to be, it might be a good idea to implement some sort of system that saves your progress in case you don't have the time to finish the entire series in a single LBP2-gaming session. Unfortunately, you can't actually save or load your previous session, so what can you do? The original Metroid managed to solve that problem by implementing a password system, but an alternative exists for LBP1&2: namely, by using stickers as a sort of passport towards where you were when you previously quit the game, or at least close to where you were. Note that if your popit is disabled while controlling your character, then you can't use stickers, though I think that there's a way to temporarily allow stickers to be placed. (If there is, then it can likewise allow designers to incorporate a system where players would need to collect a certain sticker in order to progress through an area.)

2011-03-09 21:32:00 Author: Shadow Wolf TJC Posts: 72

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While stickers would work for most cases. Stickers wont keep track of items that aren't found but don't have to be found to progress. Mainly secondary quests within the game. Such as metroid energy tanks and missile expansions.

2011-03-09 21:44:00 Author: Shadow_Wolf_1987 Posts: 108

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Transitioning between areas: Normally, a project of this magnitude would be impossible to fit in just one LBP2 level, but I think that it's possible to do such a project by splitting it up into multiple interlinked levels. How would these levels be interlinked? Using level linkers could work. However, if these transition points are 2-way, then you may have to duplicate some of your levels in order for the illusion to be complete. This gets even more complicated if your character gradually gains new abilities, since you'd probably need multiple level links for any given area that you'd like to transition to: namely, one for each state that you'd expect your character to be at. Can level links go two ways? Or maybe activate the entrance remotely? There were quite a few threads about saving progess through a game so you can put it down and come back. Among those ideas was previously stated switch triggers (stickers). There's also using score sensors in the sackbot's various chips where certain scores represent specific states in the game as well as a password system. So, it seems like there are draw backs to each method. While switch triggers and score sensors are easy for players to use, switch triggers will take up a lot of space in the player's goodie bag (not to mention the space required to stick them in the first place) and score sensors will only work for one play session resetting the player back to the beginning if they don't finish. But wait, there's more! Cyrogen gave me an idea, so talk to him more about this (maybe... not sure if it was intentional) While password systems are time consuming and require the player to write down the sequence, they're the most efficient with loads of potential to recall specific game data including but not limited to power ups, remaining health, and player position. There's also the option of giving the player a snapshot of the code at the press of a button for easy access. Why stop at a code sequence? To make things interesting, maybe you could set up a password PUZZLE! (whoa... did that sufficiantly blow your grey matter?) Perhaps a tumbler similar to the trespasser mini games in Ratchet and Clank or whatever else you can come up with. There's lots of potential in that to come up with something slightly more interesting than a code to put in every time you pass through a level link. Hope that was insightful enough to come up with something useful to suit your needs.

2011-03-09 22:11:00 Author: DigiOps Posts: 111

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All you shadow wolves are confusing me Shadow_Wolf_1987: Thanks for the offer but I'll pass on that for now. Prefer to work on my original project. It's not related to Metroid although I might have to sneak the word "Metroid" into it somewhere in order to get any plays XD Shadow Wolf TJC & DigiOps: Great points. Yeah, I'm wondering if I can pull off fitting it all into one level and hoping that I can. If not, ditching any plans for 2-way travel between the two levels may turn out to be a temptation too big to resist. I hadn't even thought about a save system. A password system sounds like the way to go, huh? I like the idea of making it visual, perhaps with icons in boxes instead of letters and numbers. That's definitely worth considering. Another idea occurred to me -- deliberate provisions for sequence-breaking. For instance, you let the player know at some point, "Hey, there's another way to get to that great upgrade it normally takes an hour of playtime before you can get. Just activate this hidden warp zone here in the beginning of the level." This is a very crude solution to the save problem, of course, and it has the same drawbacks that stickers do, but it's easy to implement and certain types of levels could find a way to work it into the context of the story, etc.

2011-03-10 00:28:00 Author: zabel99 Posts: 179

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To DigiOps and zabel99: Sadly, as far as I'm aware, level links are NOT 2-way. If you want to create the illusion of a 2-way level transition area, then chances are that not only would you need a level link on each of the 2 levels' respective entrance, but you may also need to duplicate your level multiple times; you'll need 1 copy of your level for each 2-way level-transitioning area that it'll have. Of course, this could mean that your project could in fact span over 20 levels. With that in mind, you may want to consider keeping your 2-way level-transitioning areas to a minimum, especially if you're limited in publishing space. As for how level links work, I'm aware that you can activate level links automatically. This is best demonstrated in the 1st level on the Factory of a Better Tomorrow, where the player must drop down a chimney shaped like a finger, and the next thing that you know, you've passed into another level. Also, I doubt that sackbots will ever enter a level link, though they don't really need to.

2011-03-10 01:58:00 Author: Shadow Wolf TJC Posts: 72

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To DigiOps and zabel99: Sadly, as far as I'm aware, level links are NOT 2-way. If you want to create the illusion of a 2-way level transition area, then chances are that not only would you need a level link on each of the 2 levels' respective entrance, but you may also need to duplicate your level multiple times; you'll need 1 copy of your level for each 2-way level-transitioning area that it'll have. Madness! Here's how you deal with that: You've got some system for recording the player's (approximate) game state and preserving it across level links, right? (Either stick it in their score or stickers or whatever...) When the player's going to cross from one region of the map to another (via level link), store their destination point in the target level using that system. Then, when they arrive at the other end, teleport them to where they need to be.

2011-03-10 04:28:00 Author: tetsujin Posts: 187

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Madness! Here's how you deal with that: You've got some system for recording the player's (approximate) game state and preserving it across level links, right? (Either stick it in their score or stickers or whatever...) When the player's going to cross from one region of the map to another (via level link), store their destination point in the target level using that system. Then, when they arrive at the other end, teleport them to where they need to be. Good point. I had overlooked the possibility of using score sensors and score givers as a way to temporarily save information across levels that are linked together. (I'd like to add that you can not only use a score giver to add points to a player, but to also take some away.) With that in mind, I guess that there's no need to duplicate your levels and make slight modifications in order to give players the impression of a 2-way level transition area, meaning that it's possible to create true Metroidvania games that are long, yet don't take up too many level slots. Thank you for reminding me. As for using stickers to transfer information between levels, that, to me, is a tedious process, and might've been considered a necessary evil back in the LBP1 days. Still, I think that they are useful for effectively saving your progress, even outside of the game (where even score is lost).

2011-03-11 01:46:00 Author: Shadow Wolf TJC Posts: 72

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You would give out the sticker at specified checkpoints, I guess? Or would there be some controllinator button dedicated to calling up and depositing a sticker nearby when the player is ready to quit playing for now? Or even returning them to the title screen or a starting area where a sticker prize will be waiting? When it comes to passwords, dedicating a controllinator button to bring up a password screen makes sense, I think. Is there way to pause all the action in a game for the sake of status screens, map screens, or passwords screens?

2011-03-11 17:08:00 Author: zabel99 Posts: 179

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I probably would give out certain stickers at certain checkpoints, so that players could take a break after travelling a long distance, or before or after a boss battle (especially a long, drawn out boss battle, not unlike the "major boss battles" from the Metroid Prime series like Flaahgra, Thardus, Omega Pirate, Amorbis, Chykka, Quadraxis, Mogenar, Helios, and Ridley). That way, if and when players decide to return to the game, they wouldn't have to deal with the hassle of doing all that stuff over again. By the way, is anyone here thinking about adding some kind of cameo appearance into their Metroidvania projects (that is, if you're not already planning on creating a game that's directly based off of one of the commercial Metroidvania games, like Super Metroid or Castlevania: Symphony of the Night)? Although my project is more of an original project, I'm personally considering paying a bit of homage towards the Metroid and Castlevania series, and maybe Cave Story as well, with a few cameos from said serieses, including a character based off one of the characters from the Castlevania series.

2011-03-16 10:23:00 Author: Shadow Wolf TJC Posts: 72

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Probably the biggest potential problem for a MetroidVania made in LBP will be that non-trivial portion of your audience who ups and quits the minute they encounter an obstacle they can't get past. In Metroid or Castlevania, when you're stuck you can spend 5 minutes to look at a FAQ which tells you where to go next, but your LBP audience doesn't have that luxury. Worse, they've all played levels that really were impossible to complete due to bugs or oversights on the part of the creator, and unfortunately, that's the expectation a lot of them will have. What I'll probably end up doing is going out of my way to be obvious. Like leaving jarringly obvious hints such as, "Hmm, there's a pit here. If you had a grappling hook you could swing over it...." Wow, you really know your audience, man. 'this broke, iz dum " I like you from the posts you've made lately. MetroidVania is my dream design, but I'm not going to attempt the thing until all our collective knowledge has hammered out alot of time wasting bad designs into a solid one. I'll be building set pieces in the meantime. Everything from save states, inventory, to backtracking, to leveling up and ability progression is a massive hurdle for it. I honestly believe that there will never be a way to fully recreate one of the greatest games of all time, other than an aesthetic impression with a few 'good enough' features. That's why ultimately, I don't think a 'remake' is the route to take, so much as an inspired-by original adventure that's better suited to it. Something like 4 weapons to track would be enjoyable to play, but an inventory of a few hundred items, some unique, some you can amass 99 of, and sell or stockpile etc is a wild goose chase and devoting thermometer and performance to a beast of a system to handle that level of 32 bit, 2D design will only detract from everything else's quality. I don't feel that a gimmicky "close enough" interface in any 'genre' we have now is fun, honestly, because if I was playing it in any other game, I wouldn't enjoy it. imo this will honestly work better as simple level progression with all abilities ready at the start (almost like keeping your Alucard gear glitch), with a few bonus link opportunities to create that feel. A traditional NES style Castlevania map would do it justice thematically, and Dracula X's multi-pathing would be enjoyable - if you hunt down the secret areas, you can get permanent access to Level 4B "The Underground Waterways" or whatever, for enthusiastic fans that really enjoy playing your game. By the time a person's finished the final level, they'll probably understand their skillset enough to notice the bat or mist only areas they missed in level 1 if they choose to replay. My Alucard bot is waiting for his use, though, and to be tweaked for the occasion.

2011-03-16 12:11:00 Author: Unknown User

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Wow, you really know your audience, man. 'this broke, iz dum " I like you from the posts you've made lately. MetroidVania is my dream design, but I'm not going to attempt the thing until all our collective knowledge has hammered out alot of time wasting bad designs into a solid one. I'll be building set pieces in the meantime. Everything from save states, inventory, to backtracking, to leveling up and ability progression is a massive hurdle for it. I honestly believe that there will never be a way to fully recreate one of the greatest games of all time, other than an aesthetic impression with a few 'good enough' features. That's why ultimately, I don't think a 'remake' is the route to take, so much as an inspired-by original adventure that's better suited to it. Something like 4 weapons to track would be enjoyable to play, but an inventory of a few hundred items, some unique, some you can amass 99 of, and sell or stockpile etc is a wild goose chase and devoting thermometer and performance to a beast of a system to handle that level of 32 bit, 2D design will only detract from everything else's quality. I don't feel that a gimmicky "close enough" interface in any 'genre' we have now is fun, honestly, because if I was playing it in any other game, I wouldn't enjoy it. imo this will honestly work better as simple level progression with all abilities ready at the start (almost like keeping your Alucard gear glitch), with a few bonus link opportunities to create that feel. A traditional NES style Castlevania map would do it justice thematically, and Dracula X's multi-pathing would be enjoyable - if you hunt down the secret areas, you can get permanent access to Level 4B "The Underground Waterways" or whatever, for enthusiastic fans that really enjoy playing your game. By the time a person's finished the final level, they'll probably understand their skillset enough to notice the bat or mist only areas they missed in level 1 if they choose to replay. My Alucard bot is waiting for his use, though, and to be tweaked for the occasion. I know what you mean. Using stickers to permanently record your last location (in not only Metroidvanias, but also RPGs) can take up quite a bit of a person's sticker/photo space, but trying to also record which energy tanks or missile expansions you've collected, or what level you are, or what items you're carrying?! I seriously doubt that we can create enough unique stickers to fill up all of the possible combinations without taking up ALOT of time. (Can the sticker/photo limit even fit all of those stickers?!) For passwords (which I'll just say that I'm personally not a fan of implementing), you obviously need to allocate space to ensure that anyone new to your game won't easily stumble into a later portion of the game. However, while recording one's location alone shouldn't require a long password (maybe just 4-digits long), recording one's level or inventory as well would require ever longer passwords, and again, this could be very time-consuming to implement. Because of this, I don't think that I'll be incorporating level-ups (like in Castlevania games), collectible expansions (like the health/ammo expansions found in Metroid, Castlevania, or Cave Story), or inventory items like potions or magic scrolls (like in Castlevania games or pretty much any RPG out there), and limiting save stickers to when the player's heading in the right direction, all so that the project wouldn't be too complicated for LBP2, or me, to handle. Although my project's going to take a fairly linear path in terms of progression (like in Metroid Fusion or Cave Story), I'd still like to implement at least 1 situation in which the player would need to collect a certain number of "keys" in order to progress (much like how, throughout the Metroid Prime series, the player would need to collect a certain number of keys in order to reach the final boss, or even the area's main boss in the case of Metroid Prime 2 or Hunters), though these "keys" would probably be stickers in my project's case, since stickers can be collected in any order. I'm also considering giving away some objects and such as prize bubbles in place of those health/ammo expansions or equipment that are traditionally found in real Metroidvania games. I'm just trying to make a nice, fairly long, epic project within a decent amount of time, and trying to cram in too much would make this project take too long for me to develop. For the record, I've already tried to develop an incredibly long project before in LBP1 (over 80 levels!) yet only 4 levels (including my Flaming Car Bomb Survival Challenge) were released for demo purposes, and each of those levels took me days to create. No way do I ever want to work on such an incredibly long project again (at least not by myself).

2011-03-16 14:15:00 Author: Shadow Wolf TJC Posts: 72

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I'm for an original adventure myself, notwithstanding it won't get played as much as remakes do. You have a whole lot more creative freedom as well as freedom in how you handle the issues we've been discussing here. Cameos? Hmm, a basic enemy type from Metroid might find itself the recipient of the sincerest form of flattery :-D I don't think my project will be that ambitious. Still hoping I can fit it all into one level. Today I more or less finished the weapons system. There's 3 types of weapons, 2 of which can be upgraded. The special abilities are mostly in place as well; there'll be 3 or 4 of 'em. One of them is a custom grappling hook which is pretty ugly, but I did my best with it. It's a shame sackbots can't use MM's grappling hook. Working on the enemies now. Maybe in a week I'll be able to start actually making the level, haha. This is fun! Whoever else makes a MetroidVania, I look forward to playing yours.

2011-03-17 01:34:00 Author: zabel99 Posts: 179

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I've done some brainstorming on how we can implement a system where your collected expansions (health and ammo) can be saved, and while I do think that incorporating them into the passcode system is one way of saving them, saving them as stickers could be another way.

2011-03-19 05:51:00 Author: Shadow Wolf TJC Posts: 72

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Hey, guys. 3 months later I finally finished my project. And it looks to be a failure. Whether the failure is in design or a failure to reach the target audience, I'm not sure. That's the question I want to ask.... I ended up splitting the level into two parts and not allowing travel back to the first part, but awarding a key to part two at the end of part one. It's not the same as a password system, but at least it allows players to take a break and do part two at a later time if they wish. So far only a handful of people have tried the level and I don't think anybody yet has made it to the end of part one. I was told that the level looks "samey" and that you feel lost traversing the same terrain and not knowing where to go. Now I've been wondering about this, because for me, being lost--or at least not always having a single clear objective--is exactly part of the charm of a Metroidvania. Think of the original Metroid. It looked samey all day long. You could be completely lost much of the time and you didn't care. You were loving it. But what occurred to me is that eventually nearly everyone who plays a Metroidvania gets stuck to the point where they DO want to know where to go next. So they ask a friend, or read a gamefaq, or look on youtube. And there is no such means of doing so when it comes to LBP2. You can't look up an LBP2 level on gamefaqs. If you get stuck, you just quit. (and leave a bad rating if the frustration made you spiteful) Even so, I did try to leave clues in the level about where to go in the form of camera shots and speech bubbles. I didn't want to erect a big sign saying "GO HERE NEXT" because for me, not always having a clear next objective is central to what makes a MetroidVania fun. Am I alone in thinking so? It could be, of course, that I failed in some other aspect of design. Maybe the enemies weren't interesting enough, or maybe they should have been dropping something other than points, or maybe there weren't enough secrets to search for while wandering, or maybe something else I can't think of. I doubt I'll ever attempt a project like this again (or any project to be honest), but I ask this question out of curiosity, and because it might benefit others who are making MetroidVanias.

2011-06-19 18:08:00 Author: zabel99 Posts: 179

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@zabel99: I haven't checked out your level yet (though I have it queued up for later), but perhaps some sort of map system could've been of help here? Pretty much every Metroidvania game since Super Metroid has had a map system of some sort so that players would not get lost. Incorporating something that would allow the player to look around the map could work, though unexplored areas could be hidden behind bright holograms that would dissolve when the player got close to them. (Note to self: incorporate such a feature into my project.) Also, Outland, a Metroidvania game that recently came out for Xbox Live Arcade and the PlayStation Network, incorporated this system where this "guiding light" (which looked like a bunch of butterflies to me) would show the player where to go next. Edit: I just checked out your levels, and they didn't seem all that bad to me. I didn't have much of a problem finding my way through either level at all, though I did die more times than I could count. (At least the player seemed to have infinite lives. ) It also seemed as if anyone could just farm for more score as the various enemies respawn. I'm thinking about working on some core Metroidvania kits (such as a password-based saving and loading system, a 2-way level transitioning system, map system, etc.) later on so that others could more easily create some more faithful Metroidvania games on LBP2.

2011-06-20 05:46:00 Author: Shadow Wolf TJC Posts: 72

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Thank you, Shadow Wolf. I'm happy to hear you were able to find your way to the end. Which parts did you die on the most? Gee, a map system never even occurred to me. Even though that is standard for all MetroidVanias. That would have been great, although I doubt the thermo would have allowed me to add it. That's another problem that drove me up the wall making this project -- constantly fighting the thermometer. If you do end up making a core MetroidVania kit, which would be cool, I would suggest doing everything you can to make it as efficient as possible. It seems like for projects like these you spend half your thermo just on the basic logic of what the player character can do.

2011-06-20 17:48:00 Author: zabel99 Posts: 179

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I recently published a password system that others can use to reload their progress in a long non-linear game (such as an RPG or Metroidvania game). The level is copyable. It can be found here (http://lbp.me/v/1vnsxb).

2011-06-21 17:45:00 Author: Shadow Wolf TJC Posts: 72

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