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[LBP2] Suggestions

More thermo for Crowned Creators

Archive: 57 posts

2011-03-08 19:20:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

2011-03-08 19:33:00

Author:
tetsujin

Posts: 187

But the thermo exists to keep levels within the technical limitations of the game engine....

Yes and no. I'd be willing to bet some of the Story Levels use up more thermo than we're given. I think the thermo is there to put a limit on how much you can cram into a level because there are thousands of them being uploaded every week. Not necessarily because the game can't handle anything bigger. So if you're giving this exclusively to select players, and maybe even giving them some kind of "loading priority"... Doesn't sound too out there.

Then again, I have no idea what goes into this stuff, so I could be totally wrong. I just think top Creators should be rewarded with something a Creator would want.

I guess with level links this whole point is kind of moot, but as it is now, a lot of the time it takes FOREVER for a linked level to load up. And half the time it just errors out. Kind of ruins the feel of playing through a "game" instead of a bunch of separate levels.

2011-03-08 19:47:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

Yes and no. I'd be willing to bet some of the Story Levels use up more thermo than we're given.

Mm level designers have the exact same thermo restrictions as the community, so the story mode levels are no exception

The thermo is there simply to keep the PS3 from exploding. If Mm could give us more thermo, they would. They have no reason not to

2011-03-08 20:00:00

Author:
jackofcourse

Posts: 1494

Also remember that the story levels use links too.

2011-03-08 20:03:00

Author:
gdn001

Posts: 5891

The thermo doesn't exist out of meanness to limit you, it's there to keep the game stable. The game isn't designed to intentionally be limited or slow in loading. If it were as easy as saying "Crowned creators have more thermo and their levels load faster" guarantee the best answer would be "Everyone has more thermo and their levels load faster." Don't you agree?

2011-03-08 20:20:00

Author:
Foofles

Posts: 2278

Mm level designers have the exact same thermo restrictions as the community, so the story mode levels are no exception

I stand corrected.

If it were as easy as saying "Crowned creators have more thermo and their levels load faster" guarantee the best answer would be "Everyone has more thermo and their levels load faster." Don't you agree?

But I'm suggesting that only certain select Creators would have this advantage. Wouldn't it work if you were only giving this priority to a small number of people?

Again, I'm basically talking out of my **** here. I have no idea what is and isn't possible. I just see that thermo fill up and my heart sinks.

2011-03-08 20:28:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

But I'm suggesting that only certain select Creators would have this advantage.

Forgetting how silly this specific request it...giving ANY special treatment to people with crowns is such a terrible idea I'm appalled anyone would even suggest it. (Yes, I do have one).

2011-03-08 20:54:00

Author:
fullofwin

Posts: 1214

Forgetting how silly this specific request it...giving ANY special treatment to people with crowns is such a terrible idea I'm appalled anyone would even suggest it. (Yes, I do have one).

By your logic we should do away with the Mm Picks section and delete that Hansel and Gretelbot level pack. If those examples aren't special treatment then I don't know what is.

This is about Mm rewarding it's best creators. This is a whole new genre of gaming, where the game is made by the players. So this is all new territory. What's so bad about top Creators getting special rewards? The only people who are gonna complain about it are the ones who'll most likely never put the time and effort into achieving the same thing.

The fact of the matter is that the best levels in LBP take a LONG time to make. People are spending months and months on their creations. (myself included)

Let me edit my original suggestion a bit and make it less specific. It would be cool if Mm rewarded their best Creators with something that a Creator would want. Could be the ability to upload high quality voice recordings to their levels, or something else. Just something more tailored to making their levels shine even more. A crown can't do this.

Also, you're easily appalled.

2011-03-08 21:09:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

By your logic we should do away with the Mm Picks section and delete that Hansel and Gretelbot level pack. If those examples aren't special treatment then I don't know what is.

This is about Mm rewarding it's best creators. This is a whole new genre of gaming, where the game is made by the players. So this is all new territory. What's so bad about top Creators getting special rewards? The only people who are gonna complain about it are the ones who'll most likely never put the time and effort into achieving the same thing.

The fact of the matter is that the best levels in LBP take a LONG time to make. People are spending months and months on their creations. (myself included)

Let me edit my original suggestion a bit and make it less specific. It would be cool if Mm rewarded their best Creators with something that a Creator would want. Could be the ability to upload high quality voice recordings to their levels, or something else. Just something more tailored to making their levels shine even more. A crown can't do this.

Also, you're easily appalled.

Incorrect, Crowned does NOT equal great creator, trust me, there are many with crowns that have yet to creat something, in-game's not the only way to win crowns, neiter is creating an awesome level the only way to get one.

The examples you gave on the other hand, ARE great levels, and stuff by awesome creators that stand out by themselves, and impress Mm, its a completly different matter to that of crowned players.

2011-03-08 21:41:00

Author:
Silverleon

Posts: 6707

Incorrect, Crowned does NOT equal great creator, trust me, there are many with crowns that have yet to creat something, in-game's not the only way to win crowns, neiter is creating an awesome level the only way to get one.

This is true. So then not crowned players, but Top Creators. However Mm wants to define that...

2011-03-08 22:02:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

However, I still think that more thermo space or other creating advantages aren't fair. Why must they have better tools than everybody else?
A pin, crown or other kind of reward is different, though...

2011-03-08 22:13:00

Author:
gdn001

Posts: 5891

I'm going to ask one question regarding giving the 'top creators' extra benefits...why?

Whether it be your example of higher voice quality, or extra materials or anything else. These aren't things that are limited and have to be handed sparingly, they could just as easily to given to everyone as given to specific people (easier actually). For a game that is centred around community spirit and everyone being able to do anything they want, I see it as somewhat counter-productive to give new features to only a specific group of people. It's not something that will actually benefit anyone. Giving those new features to someone who isn't a 'top creator' could enable them to make something that no one else would have thought of, which as a result would enrich the community. IMO, all it would do is promote elitism.

Now you could argue that there are already things in the game that are like this, such as Mm picks or Crowns. But these aren't things that are directly related to creating. They don't make you better at anything, they're just showpieces to recognise something cool that you've done.

I understand where you're coming from in regards to rewarding the top creators, and it's always nice to give people recognition who deserve it, but I don't see this as a viable option. It would cause far more problems than it would solve

PS. I've just noticed your PSN there ccapel...nice to see you back in the community!

2011-03-08 22:20:00

Author:
jackofcourse

Posts: 1494

Why wouldn't it be good to give EVERYONE the same advantage? Is there some club I'm unaware of? There are LOADS of levels created by people that are great that just don't get noticed. So you're saying those people commenting in the "Help" and "Everything Else" forums complaining about their levels going unnoticed should get even more discouraged?

I thought LBP was an equal opportunity game...

2011-03-08 22:20:00

Author:
DigiOps

Posts: 111

Going to what Jack said, "Why?" would the need this special treatment?
I mean, really, they're already Top creators, why would they need advantages when they're already awesome creators?

2011-03-08 22:35:00

Author:
Silverleon

Posts: 6707

2011-03-08 22:45:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz

Posts: 4261

I think the Bottom Line here is that people need basically 2 things to make good levels:

1: Having Creativity, Audacity, and an adventurous atitude.

2: Lots of creation space.

I think it seems right to give more to those who put in more.

2011-03-08 23:17:00

Author:
Phazerz123

Posts: 440

No just no.
people don't need stuff to make them think they are better then other people.
and also you seem to have no understanding with the system, they can't give you more thermo.
why? because the PS3 is not good enough to run more, (the ps3 is not limitless) honestly in everyway is a bad idea.
elitism is the most annoying dumb thing to happen in games and this would only do just that~*mew

Ok, well instead of more thermo how about something small like a lifetime subscription to playstation plus, or a round trip, first class plane ticket to England once a year for the rest of your life? You know, just to encourage those top creators to keep creating.

Sarcasm aside, this post was more to suggest rewarding top Creators with something a creator would want. And to me that means something they can use in their level creation. I don't know what it should or shouldn't be, but I do know that promoting healthy competition and rewarding excellence is good both for Mm and the community.

How about a lifetime supply of diamond-encrusted sackboy plush dolls that cook you breakfast- ok I'm done.

PS. I've just noticed your PSN there ccapel...nice to see you back in the community!

Thank you sir! It's good to be back. I got burnt out of LBP1 early on and totally missed out on the 50 layer glitch. Needless to say I've been using and abusing it in my new levels.

Looking forward to your LBP2 masterpieces!

2011-03-08 23:18:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

Again, I'm basically talking out of my **** here.

well i agree with you on that.it would be totally unfair,not all brilliant creators have crowns and not all crowns are brilliant creators

2011-03-09 03:43:00

Author:
gigglecrab

Posts: 232

And, I still think some people here are missing what the thermo IS! It's not a limitation that they put ther to torment you. It's to make your levels PLAYABLE by other people. if it's too complex for people to load, then you might as well have not published it. The thermo is just to make sure your level can be played by others.

And, is a crown, a Pin and the satisfaction not enough? I mean, why would you need more? I think the crown and MMpicks are enough.

2011-03-09 04:16:00

Author:
jalr2d2

Posts: 256

Yeah, seems a bit elitist. Also, thermometer seems to be based off of the PS3's RAM. I'm not sure they can do much about it.

2011-03-09 04:23:00

Author:
Unknown User

Reeks of elitism... at the very least. I'm actually really surprised that anyone would suggest any creator should get special treatment. Perhaps next we should start giving special treatment to poor creators who simply aren't good because of lack of time put into their levels or lack of natural abilities? Maybe send them to special "How To Become A Better Creator" courses, seminars on "How To Stay Focused While Creating", or even some free art classes? Hey, while we're at it... why don't we give special attention to the folks who throw up fake costume/shark/ramp/bomb survival levels while we're at it? Perhaps... a limousine to cater them around town on weekends in the form of a short yellow school bus?

This idea just baffles the hell outta' me.

"promoting healthy competition and rewarding excellence is good both for Mm and the community" ... not necessarily true for everyone actually. I myself can't stand competition and never could. This is the kind of thinking that often leads to parents getting into fist fights on their kid's soccer fields with coaches. I went through an intensive Fine Arts Program in high school where half of our day was dedicated solely to our craft. The amount of competition among students and people changing their styles to suit certain teacher's tastes (thus resulting in "rewarding excellence" made me sick... and completely turned me off of the art field for many years. For the record... I was one of those students who was suddenly getting "special treatment" rewards from the faculty.... so it had nothing to do with jealousy or anything in case that's what you are thinking. Quite the opposite actually.

Those that want to enter competitions should do so of their own accord... not because it will give them more tools than the other guy or to become some sort of gaming "rock star".

A top creator's "special reward" is the satisfaction of knowing that they put the time and effort in to make their creation the best they possibly could given the tools they have (and that we ALL share). On top of that, they get an even bigger reward.... knowing that their level or creation brought a smile to someone's face on any given day and that their creation is sitting there for those people to go back and play any time they wish, or for new people to discover. The satisfaction that they have possibly raised the bar for the rest of us, and perhaps even inspired other enthusiastic creators to sit their butts down and put the time in like the rest of us to learn the tools, tips, and tricks of our trade to become a better creator themselves.

That about sum this thread up now?

2011-03-09 04:47:00

Author:
Rustbukkit

Posts: 1737

You know, if you think about it. Mm already does this. They reward creators already. Let's see....

You get trophies

You get a ribbon on the best levels

and there's one more thing they've done....... What was it again...... OH YEAH!

They give out jobs. Granted it's only been one guy (I think), but come on. If that isn't a great present, then I don't know what is.

2011-03-09 05:05:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal

Posts: 1799

LBP is supposed to give equal treatment for everyone in the community. It should be everyone creating what it's possible to create for everyone else, not just a select few creating super awesome stuff for all the others who couldn't create anything worthy of attention.
I mean, MM gives us the tools, the knowledge to make good stuff with them, the server space to share it with the world. And anyone should be fully capable of making their contribution to the community. It's up to us if we choose to put some effort and time in creator mode to make the good stuff or if we just choose to clog up the servers with lazy, empty levels.

2011-03-09 11:57:00

Author:
SnipySev

Posts: 2452

Pretty simple, really. Give the top LBP Creators more thermometer space. That's a big incentive to get crowned and can make for some pretty amazing levels in the future. Just a thought.

If it was simple as just giving more thermometer space, don't you think they would have given it to everyone?

Either way, my sentiments have already been echoed by everyone else. This is elitist nonsense, and most of us realize that owning a crown does not make you a "top creator", merely a lucky one.

2011-03-09 13:08:00

Author:
Thegide

Posts: 1465

More thermo for everyone!!!!

Kidding of course. Ditto to the above.

2011-03-09 13:28:00

Author:
comphermc

Posts: 5338

The thermo space is already too excessive, because it doesn't factor in player costumes. If a level's thermo is only 3/4 full, players can get kicked due to their costumes causing overheating. Increasing the thermo limit would be a terrible thing. It would actually work against creators.

2011-03-09 13:35:00

Author:
Wayward

Posts: 120

More thermo for everyone!!!!

LBP1 + thermo cheat = win!

TBH, neither LBP1 nor LBP2's thermo calculation algorithms were particularly effective. In both games, it's easy enough to prove that it's possible to create a level which the game engine can't really handle, using only a tiny fraction of the thermo. Similarly, in LBP1, it was also proven that you could create a level which works just fine, but goes way over the thermo limit.

So, they could just ditch the thermo (or at least make it optional), and let the creator worry about whether the level actually works or not. Still, I doubt they'll do that, so ignore everything I just said.

2011-03-09 17:43:00

Author:
Aya042

Posts: 2870

More thermo for everyone!!!!.

Bloody commies

2011-03-09 17:44:00

Author:
rtm223

Posts: 6497

... not necessarily true for everyone actually. I myself can't stand competition and never could. This is the kind of thinking that often leads to parents getting into fist fights on their kid's soccer fields with coaches. I went through an intensive Fine Arts Program in high school where half of our day was dedicated solely to our craft. The amount of competition among students and people changing their styles to suit certain teacher's tastes (thus resulting in "rewarding excellence" made me sick... and completely turned me off of the art field for many years. For the record... I was one of those students who was suddenly getting "special treatment" rewards from the faculty.... so it had nothing to do with jealousy or anything in case that's what you are thinking. Quite the opposite actually.

So because some people take competition too seriously, there should be no competition? You realize that's what you just suggested, right?

That about sum this thread up now?

Talk about elitism.

Apparently some of you guys just read the first post of a thread and then jump to the end to respond. The subject of this thread has changed a bit. You know, because this is a discussion... Anyways, I edited the original post so people can see more what I'm suggesting here.

well i agree with you on that.it would be totally unfair,not all brilliant creators have crowns and not all crowns are brilliant creators

Wow, way to add absolutely nothing to the discussion and insult the OP at the same time. Troll on, friend.

2011-03-09 19:51:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

So because some people take competition too seriously, there should be no competition? You realize that's what you just suggested, right?

Talk about elitism.

Apparently some of you guys just read the first post of a thread and then jump to the end to respond. The subject of this thread has changed a bit. You know, because this is a discussion... Anyways, I edited the original post so people can see more what I'm suggesting here.

Well, I have read every post, and what I see is that you're still suggesting giving a limited people an unfair advantage. Case closed. Crowns and picks give recognition - and that right there is the incentive to keep creating.

Wow, way to add absolutely nothing to the discussion and insult the OP at the same time. Troll on, friend.

How exactly was his post insulting?

2011-03-09 20:10:00

Author:
Thegide

Posts: 1465

2011-03-09 20:24:00

Author:
Unknown User

At least half the people who have crowns aren't "top creators" - they just did something cool or won a contest. At least 90% of the best creators out there don't have crowns. The thermometer we're given is based on the limitations of the game engine and the PS3. They're givin' us all they got, Captain!

With levels links now, and sheeee, the way thermo works with emitter storage, and the ease of use in destroyers, any creator worth his salt who can't manage their thermometer is just doing it wrong.

/sigh.... READ AT LEAST SOME OF THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING PLEASE.

Seriously man, you're just repeating what 5 other people have said... ugh.

Well, I have read every post, and what I see is that you're still suggesting giving a limited people an unfair advantage. Case closed. Crowns and picks give recognition - and that right there is the incentive to keep creating.

What is all this "unfair advantage" nonsense?

What's unfair about rewarding someone who puts more time and effort into their levels than someone else? Or someone who's just plain better at it than someone else? How is this unfair? It's like giving the losing team a trophy. Everyone wins! And no one learns anything. I mean some people have had their levels air on national television in Sony commercials for crying out loud! By your logic that's as unfair as it can get.

Crowns and picks might be incentive enough for now, but this is a new genre of gaming that will continue to evolve. It's just the nature of the genre.

Again, I'm not suggesting Mm creates a bunch of new weapons/logic/game mechanics and then only gives them to the top creators. I'm simply suggesting that if you're going to give a top Creator a reward, that Creator would most likely want something that he can use in his/her levels. Seeing as how they're so good at Creating. It's not rocket surgery.

The specifics of that reward are up to Mm to decide.

How exactly was his post insulting?

He quoted me saying, "I'm basically talking out of my **** here..." and then posted that reply. Real helpful.

2011-03-09 20:27:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

/sigh.... READ AT LEAST SOME OF THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING PLEASE.

Yes, yes...it's no longer specifically about the thermo or crowns...doesn't matter!

That's what YOU don't seem to understand. If YOU actually read what everyone is saying and got past your fixation on their mention of crowns or thermo you'd see that everyyone pretty much universally agrees that no one should be given any special perks.

What amuses me (yes, I'm also easily amused) is that you must think you'd qualify for these perks but in reality with the volume of levels and creators out there the odds are against it and getting this perks would mostly come down to luck. Choosing the "best" creators is totally subjective...who's to say who put more time or effort into something, how you measure this?

You should have let this thread die gracefully after Jack's post...please consider doing so now. It's not like this thread serves any real purpose, MM will do whatever they want.

2011-03-09 20:47:00

Author:
fullofwin

Posts: 1214

Yes, yes...it's no longer specifically about the thermo or crowns...doesn't matter!

That's what YOU don't seem to understand. If YOU actually read what everyone is saying and got past your fixation on their mention of crowns or thermo you'd see that everyyone pretty much universally agrees that no one should be given any special perks.

I think what's frustrating me about this discussion is all this talk about "fair and unfair". The second that Mm allowed us to rate and comment on other people's creations, "fair" went right out the window. This is a competition, whether you choose to look at it that way or not. It's just like YouTube. People are competing for plays and hearts. Comments and Reviews. Everyone's dying to get into the Mm Picks section. People come online and promote their levels for crying out loud. It's insane! And awesome, by the way. It's one of the things that I love about this game.

Yes, some people do this strictly for fun. And those people won't care what happens either way. But for a lot of us, the competitive aspect is a big part of what makes it fun.

I agree about special perks. It's a touchy subject, and one that Mm would have to think long and hard about. But there's nothing that says Mm couldn't come out with some announcement that would make us all go, "Huh. I never thought of that." That's all I'm saying.

2011-03-09 21:05:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

MM should give the best creators a lifetime supply of Gatorade and a cheerleader.

2011-03-09 21:22:00

Author:
Unknown User

Yes, some people do this strictly for fun. And those people won't care what happens either way. But for a lot of us, the competitive aspect is a big part of what makes it fun.

I'm one of those people that creates just for the fun of it. My level promotion stops at creating a thread in the LBPC level showcase. I would certainly care if there were create tools being offered to others and not me...that sort of thing just irks me...if I start feeling like a second class citizen I'll go play something else. Look how upset people got for not being selected for the beta.

I think there are plenty of perks/opportunities for a selected few creators now. What about being asked to create a level for the GoTY edition, the swesome Hansel and Grettlebot project, or even the LittleBigPrius contest? Really stand out and maybe a creator has a shot at being chosen for something like that in the future...if you need more incentive than this I question your motivation for creating at all.

2011-03-09 21:29:00

Author:
fullofwin

Posts: 1214

I posted something similar to this in another thread, but it's relevant here as well. The tagline for this game is "Play, Create, Share". I know most people haven't had sharing defined to them since kindergarten, but the definition hasn't changed. You don't share something for personal gain; sharing is something you do for someone else. There is a certain degree of gratification that comes with sharing something with someone else, and that is the reward for sharing.

If MM wanted creators to be rewarded, they could've created an environment like Harmonix did with Rock Band Network and allow you to "Play, Create, Sell". But that's not what they were going for. It's about providing an endless stream of content generated by the user, for the user.

2011-03-09 21:52:00

Author:
nextlevel88

Posts: 149

Bloody commies

Wouldn't all LBP be communist then? I mean, anyone can play everyone's stuff

2011-03-09 23:25:00

Author:
SnipySev

Posts: 2452

!!DISCLAIMER!! THE FOLLOWING IS A STRING OF RESPONSES, SO YOU MAY WANT TO EITHER SKIP AHEAD OR MAKE A POT OF COFFEE TO ENJOY WHILE READING ALONG

To the OP, you might think this is an attack of sorts and take this personally. It's not, so please don't. I'm merely responding to each and every one of your statements you've made to try and strengthen your point - to in turn, strengthen my own and hope that you understand why we so adamantly disagree with this idea ever being implemented into the game. If you're the type that might get easily offended or bent out of shape, please just skip this reply completely.

Pretty simple, really. Give the top LBP Creators more thermometer space. That's a big incentive to get crowned and can make for some pretty amazing levels in the future. Just a thought.

EDIT:

My suggestion in this thread has changed a bit. Mostly because it seems to be unanimous that nobody likes the more thermo idea.

So for those of you who just read the first post of a thread and then skip to the end because you can't wait to flip out and get all indignant, here's a quote from Page 2 of this thread:

Well considering this...
in?dig?nant adj in-ˈdig-nənt
Definition of INDIGNANT: feeling or showing anger because of something.unjust or unworthy.

... I'd say you partially hit the nail on the head. I say partially because I certainly didn't skip to the end before responding, and though pretty much everyone disagree's with this idea... I've seen no clear signs of anger directed toward you. I've definitely seen confusion, and feedback that indicates a negative emotional response to your suggestion... but certainly not anger. I suppose this could be conceived though, as being slightly indignant... given that we all think your suggestion is one that promotes an unjust award system. I also paid close attention to the fact that after offering up new suggestions in post#18, you used the term "Sarcasm aside"... which led me to believe that you weren't really listening to or taking seriously the main point being made by everyone here, that any special treatment" being given is a bad idea. Perhaps I misunderstood something in there? Sorry, but "changing your suggestion a bit" after the fact, and only because the majority of people disagree with you doesn't change the fact that we still think the notion of giving anyone special treatment is unjust or unworthy (hence our "perceived" indigation). For the record, I've not seen anyone in here "flip out" as you put it, so far. Maybe I'm reading this all wrong though. :/

This is elitist nonsense, and most of us realize that owning a crown does not make you a "top creator", merely a lucky one. ... or a really good baker of tasty Sackboy shaped cake

/sigh.... READ AT LEAST SOME OF THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING PLEASE.

Seriously man, you're just repeating what 5 other people have said... ugh.
Which is his right to do... voice his opinion. This is a discussion forum and we all have a right to have our say. If people were chiming in in agreeance or support of your side of the arguement right now... you wouldn't be saying the same about their statements.

What is all this "unfair advantage" nonsense?

What's unfair about rewarding someone who puts more time and effort into their levels than someone else? Nothing... unless that reward comes in the form of exclusive access to something that will give them an "unfair advantage" as compared to the rest of the community. There's your unfair advantage nonsense right there. I'm really not sure how you can't see those words sitting right there in front of you? Unfair advantage.

Or someone who's just plain better at it than someone else? How is this unfair? It just is. I have natural artistic talent that makes me a better creator than a large portion of the community (visually and musically speaking... my gameplay elements and logic knowledge are weak man... weeeeeeaaaaaak). When I say that, I'm comparing myself to the community on a grand scale, taking into consideration the percentages of visually or musically talented people in the world, the game's average game player's age, etc. etc. Talent is a gift, and it's a very rare gift when you consdider the small number of people in the world who have enough of it to make a living off of, creating things for others who don't have that same talent to enjoy. Our reward as creative people is getting paid to work at something that we love. It's not bragging, it's fact and I know this because of my body of work in the creative world and my line of work. So if I make an awesome wicked level that everyone loves and Mm suddenly decided to give me some extra perk that others who lack the raw natural talent I was fortunate enough to be born with... how is that fair to them at all? Being a single guy, I spend a lot of time on my creations and work hard to make them great, but I also have the luxury of time on my hands that some people don't. Perhaps I should get an exclusive reward for not having a wife and kids and being able to dedicate as much time to creating as those who do? See where I'm going with this?

It's like giving the losing team a trophy. Great idea actually.... perhaps the losing team should get a trophy... for trying as hard as they could and giving it their all, despite the odds.
Everyone wins! LOVE this idea! Now you're getting it!

And no one learns anything. Oh.... wait... no you're not.

How do you learn from not being as good as someone else, or being in a slump, or being made to feel like a loser because you weren't on your game that day, or that the knowledge that timing and luck not being on your side still makes you somehow less of a person in other people's eyes? We learn by experience, patience, a craving for knowledge, and dedication of our time to becoming the best we can be. I prefer to leave reward based learning to infants and dogs... and only because it yields quicker satisfactory behavioural results in the short term which lead to long term results. However, I wouldn't reward a baby for being cute or a dog for having a tail... which seems to be akin to what you have been suggesting all along.

I mean some people have had their levels air on national television in Sony commercials for crying out loud! By your logic that's as unfair as it can get. Actually no... our logic is completely sound and has nothing to do with this ridiculous and illogical analogy you are trying to make to connect ... oh heck... I don't even know what you are trying to connect here to be honest? Those people's levels were picked because they had imagery in them that the people involved in making the commercial decided were enticing, varied, colourful, fun looking, cool looking, exciting, represented the game well, or whatever other reasons they thought they had enough of to help with game sales. Period. They were also chosen because those people actually published levels in the beta, and were lucky enough to have them selected to be used in the commercial. As far as I know, their tools, materials, and other game related content is still the same as yours and mine... and we all prefer it that way.

Crowns and picks might be incentive enough for now, but this is a new genre of gaming that will continue to evolve. It's just the nature of the genre. No... this is still LBP. A wonderful game by wonderful creators FOR wonderful creators to Play, Create, and Share... on equal ground. Since this is a "new genre" of gaming, then what makes you such an expert on the subject to say that it's evolution is just the nature of the genre? Do you haz time machine? Sure this will evolve, but if the community has anything to say about it (and we do), then it will evolve in positive ways... not negative, elitist, or discrimanatory ones like you are suggesting.

Again, I'm not suggesting Mm creates a bunch of new weapons/logic/game mechanics and then only gives them to the top creators. I'm simply suggesting that if you're going to give a top Creator a reward, that Creator would most likely want something that he can use in his/her levels. Seeing as how they're so good at Creating. It's not rocket surgery. You are still however, suggesting that the kids with blue eyes are somehow better than the kids with brown eyes. Look up Jane Elliot's "A Class Divided" to understand just how discriminatory it is to reward somone born with what is to be considered a "better quality" than others really is, which is what you have suggested here all along and goes completely against the idea behind the LBP franchise.

The specifics of that reward are up to Mm to decide. Which they won't, because that's not what this game is about. If they did, you would see a large chunk of the community disappear pretty quickly... and they know this.

I think what's frustrating me about this discussion is all this talk about "fair and unfair". The second that Mm allowed us to rate and comment on other people's creations, "fair" went right out the window. How so? It's completely fair. I'll concede that it was a stupid move on their part... or at least, the way it's currently set up is. However, it's totally fair that you can leave positive or negative feedback, comments, or smileys. It would be unfair if you could only leave feedback that is one or the other... but since you can leave either, that equates to fair.
This is a competition, whether you choose to look at it that way or not. No it's not... there's only a teeny tiny fraction of people like you in the community who feel this way. If fact, most of the top creators don't view this as a competition from what I've seen of their posts over the past few years. If this were a competition, the top creators wouldn't be coming to this forum to give advice, share tips/tricks/and secrets, and post responses to the many questions being asked in the help section. They seem like a pretty helpful and friendly bunch compared to the protective pad wearing lot you seem to be suggesting they are.
It's just like YouTube. No it's not... Youtube is a site used to share video's (which has been overrun by immature 13 year old brats who post mostly stupid clips of themselves acting like idiots that they will someday regret doing)
People are competing for plays and hearts. Look around this forum a bit more, and I'm sure you'll see how wrong this statement really is.. I'm just getting tired of typing now.
Comments and Reviews. Comments and Reviews are healthy and welcome by all creators... it's what makes us better at our craft.
Everyone's dying to get into the Mm Picks section. I'm really getting tired of these blanket statements of yours now. How about taking some polls or something before you start throwing this imaginary number "everyone" into the mix? Many of us could care less about Mm Picks, myself included.

People come online and promote their levels for crying out loud. It's insane! And awesome, by the way. It's one of the things that I love about this game. Not sure how that's insane... it's just smart advertising and a great way to SHARE your creations with the rest of the community. I'll agree though, that it's awesome.

Yes, some people do this strictly for fun. And those people won't care what happens either way. Wrong again. I do this strictly for fun, and I certainly care. Heck, ask anyone in here if they do this strictly for fun... then ask them if they care - I'm sure you'll get a different view from the skewed perspective you currently have on the general population here.

But for a lot of us, the competitive aspect is a big part of what makes it fun. You might be right, but in my experience... you are in the minority of the community as this is not what draws people to LBP.

I agree about special perks. It's a touchy subject, and one that Mm would have to think long and hard about. But there's nothing that says Mm couldn't come out with some announcement that would make us all go, "Huh. I never thought of that." That's all I'm saying. True... it's very touchy here. I'll bet my first unborn child that Mm won't be thinking long or hard about this one at all... it's a no brainer.

So because some people take competition too seriously, there should be no competition? You realize that's what you just suggested, right? Do you realize that I'm not the only one laughing at this right now? That isn't at all what I suggested. You are simply reading what you want into my statement/example. I'm all for people who want to be competetive to do so if it makes them happy. I merely stated that I personally hate competition, as I feel it tends to breed hostility in many people and situations. I also stated that competition is not in keeping with the LBP ideology and that it doesn't have any place here. There are plenty of LBP related contests all the time... and I don't have an issue with that. I would have an issue if the contests winners received exclusive access to materials, thermo, tools, costumes, skins, or anything other kind of content that might give them an unfair advantage over the rest of creators in this community. I prefer to keep my competition to competition based games like Killzone. If you really want to compete with me, then send me an invite and I'd be happy to go online and school you in the difference between a camper and a sniper. (kidding... of course

)

Talk about elitism. .. inDEED!

Apparently some of you guys just read the first post of a thread and then jump to the end to respond. The subject of this thread has changed a bit. You know, because this is a discussion... Anyways, I edited the original post so people can see more what I'm suggesting here. ... and it doesn't seem to have help to make your case any stronger at all.

MM should give the best creators a lifetime supply of Gatorade and a cheerleader.Oh man!! I'd quit my job, never go to another social event in my life, and spend all my time creating if this was an incentive to become a "top creator"..... I LOVE GATORADE!!

2011-03-10 01:07:00

Author:
Rustbukkit

Posts: 1737

Oh I'm not offended. I love this kind of debate.

I'm sad to say I wrote a huge response and it didn't post. Probably because I was rendering something at the same time. (I'm at work)

But I'll try to sum it up. Forgive me if I sound rude, but I'm reeeeeally annoyed that it didn't post. I spent some time on it. Ah well.

Look, it's clear that you and I are on opposite sides of the fence here. If someone were to get a reward for creating a better level than me, the last thing I'd do is get upset. What a silly response. It's like a little kid throwing a tantrum because someone else is better than them at something. No, things like that only make me try harder. And thank goodness for that. Even if that reward were content that I didn't have access to. It's no different than gearing up in an MMO. It allows you access to content that others haven't earned yet. Whether it be because of lack of skill, time, etc. Doesn't matter.

However, I don't think giving new gizmos or gameplay elements to certain people is the right way to go either. Of course that will alienate some people. That's why the thermo space was my original suggestion. You're not getting exclusive materials. Just more create space. Because usually people who spend ridiculous amounts of time on their levels are always filling the thermo to the brim. So why not just give them more room to create. But whatever, I'm sure there's a slew of technical problems that would go with this on top of the "fairness" issue.

You probably don't see it, but you were throwing out the same blanket statements about what the community does/doesn't want in your response to me, just on the opposite side of the issue. This was expected, as it's the only way to have that discussion. Assume what the community wants, and make suggestions. How else would you go about it?

Also, man you start out responding to my points, but then slowly wander off into hyperbolic examples that don't at all resemble my original thoughts. It's like you're shoving handfuls of words into my mouth.

Look, I don't know what LBP3 has in store, or if there will even be a LBP3. They can keep adding to the current mold for a while, I'm sure. But eventually the novelty of LBP will wear off if it doesn't continue to evolve. People will get bored and move on. Personally, I'd like to see it move in a direction where the line between community creators and Mm staff begins to blur. This isn't just a community who plays a game made by a developer. It's a community that CREATES CONTENT for that developer. I started another thread that I think is more what this thread was intended to be. I just didn't realize it at the time. Here's the link if you want to have a gander:

https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=52424-The-next-step-for-Mm-and-the-LBP-community

You sound like an opinionated guy. Anyone who will pick my posts apart line-by-line is okay in my book. I'm the same way. I love forums for that reason.

In closing, I hate you. /sarcasm

2011-03-10 02:50:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

Yeah, you're okay in my books too... even though you're clearly drunk. (kidding

) I guess sometimes people need to give extreme examples to get their points across, even if those examples have nothing to do with the actual discussion (ie. dogs/babies/eye color). It's just something we do naturally, to equate something so profoundly screwed up to the conversation at hand in order to illustrate to the other person how the issue makes us feel.

Anyways, I'm sure anyone here will tell you that I'm generally a nice guy who is usually up for a good debate. The only time I'll get annoyed and start pulling out "the big guns" is when people pipe in on discussions with childish or repetative statements, start making things personal, or make statements that are bred of ignorance. I'm at that age where I just won't tolerate uneducated rants from 15 year olds who have no respect for people because this is the internet and they feel that it somehow gives them carte blanche to act up or be disrespectful, or people who say things that are so mind numbingly stupid that I have to start googling where they live to see if there was a recent water contamination or nuclear power plant leak. So far.... you don't strike me as any of these, so I'm pretty sure we're up for some good debates in the future at some point. Truthfully, I almost never pay attention to names on here... so if we "get into it" again... it still won't be personal and I won't likely be making any references to past discussions.

Opinionated... hmmm... I suppose being strong headed about my opinions might make me so... never really thought about it that way. Aww heck... Iv'e been called much worse by ex-girlfriends than opinionated... so I'll take that. I'd love to hate you too, but frankly... we just aren't that close yet.

Truthfully, there's very few people in the world that I hate (other than politicians... those people are mostly just pure evil). Where forums are concerned, I can only think of one or two people that even rank close to the top of the "Hate Meter"... and they sometimes pop up to take a swing with their giant hammer and ring that big bell at the top of it.

I look forward to more discussions and hearing more of your ideas, whether I'm on the other side of the fence... or on your side throwing rocks at the people on the other side of it with you.

Cheers!

2011-03-10 06:08:00

Author:
Rustbukkit

Posts: 1737

Wouldn't all LBP be communist then? I mean, anyone can play everyone's stuff

The Factory of a Better Tomorrow levels are pushing a communist agenda, and I like it.

2011-03-10 12:17:00

Author:
Unknown User

What's unfair about rewarding someone who puts more time and effort into their levels than someone else? Or someone who's just plain better at it than someone else? How is this unfair? It's like giving the losing team a trophy. Everyone wins!

Sports is actually a great analogy to show the flaw in your thinking. What you are forgetting is that the trophy or medal that the winners gets doesn't actually help them in the next competition. Everyone starts out on a level playing field. Giving top creators advantages is like giving the winners of baseball competition a better bat than the rest in the next game. Sounds unfair to me.

I'm not saying unfairness doesn't exist already, but that's not the point. I hate how not being able to ace certain story levels restricts the creative tools one has at his disposal. I certainly wouldn't wish the same fate on people good at playing but bad at creating.

I have nothing against rewarding people for their efforts, but to keep things fair those rewards should be restricted to out-of-game benefits. Well, maybe there is one exception. Maybe additional publishing space could work. People spamming crap levels would still be limited to 20, but excellent creators could publish more levels without being forced to delete older ones (and thus being forced to deny the world seeing those gems again).

Truthfully, I almost never pay attention to names on here... so if we "get into it" again... it still won't be personal and I won't likely be making any references to past discussions.

Funny, I'm always totally biased: your avatar = lengthy post warning. But seriously, making me read all that... I hate skipping posts; you could have at least picked it apart paragraph by paragraph in stead of line by line.

2011-03-10 17:02:00

Author:
Rogar

Posts: 2284

Funny, I'm always totally biased: your avatar = lengthy post warning. But seriously, making me read all that... I hate skipping posts; you could have at least picked it apart paragraph by paragraph in stead of line by line.

Yeah, I do post lengthy ones from time to time... but certainly not always. I do it for several reasons actually. First and foremost, I do it because I appreciate the English language and was brought up in a schooling system during a time when it wasn't failing our kids like it is today. I also do it because it weeds out the lazy people (for which I have no time), the ignorant people (who'm I can't stand), and the stupid people (who I just can't stand watching stumble over their own words in an attempt at defending themselves much of the time).

In this case it worked to my advantage and just the way I wanted it to. I now know that ccapel is an intelligent and seemingly educated person with who'm I'm willing to engage in conversations or friendly arguements, simply by reading his response to me. He didn't come back at me with some short worded insult because he doesn't have the brains or cahoona's to argue his own points. He came back at me with equally compelling words in an attempt to show that he's on par with me, "get's me", and appreciates my willingness to engage in good healthy discussions... no matter how much our opinions differ. For that, I have total respect for him now.

I think if you're going to say something... then say it all. By my replying all at once and giving reasons or examples to back up my feelings or opinions, it saves the other person from wondering why I feel a certain way, have a certain opinion, or even do the things I do... much like I'm doing right now.

I can't stand going through a 30 page thread only to see the conversations going back and forth with short replies like "Yup!" - "lol!!" - "Anyone think differently?" - "Yeah, I do." - "Why?" - Because I just don't agree with you" - "Why don't you?" - "I dunno... I just don't I guess" - "You guess? What does that mean?" - "I dunno... you figure it out and then tell me" - "Huh?" - "Nevermind man. I gotta go cook some chicken now... so brb." - "What does chicken have to do with it?" - "Nothing you *** I'm just hungry"- "Oh... well no need to get nasty about it" - "Whatever man. I'm going to eat chicken now" - "I thought you said you had to cook chicken?" - "........"

As for why I picked those bits apart and responded sentence by sentence, it's really simple. I was addressing each thought separately so that nothing got misconstrued and the reader could see exactly what statement I was responding to when... in an attempt to lower the likelyhood that they come back with any questions about what I meant about what. Often I'll just reply to an entire parapragh one at a time... it's situational.

There really isn't any difference other than how it's laid out visually... I would have said all the same things, so I don't really see how doing it differently would be a time saver for anyone.

PS... are you suggesting I change my Avatar?

2011-03-10 21:03:00

Author:
Rustbukkit

Posts: 1737

I guess sometimes people need to give extreme examples to get their points across, even if those examples have nothing to do with the actual discussion (ie. dogs/babies/eye color). It's just something we do naturally, to equate something so profoundly screwed up to the conversation at hand in order to illustrate to the other person how the issue makes us feel.

I'm the same way. I think it's a result of just being reeeeally passionate about whatever I'm discussing.

Opinionated... hmmm... I suppose being strong headed about my opinions might make me so... never really thought about it that way. Aww heck... Iv'e been called much worse by ex-girlfriends than opinionated... so I'll take that. I'd love to hate you too, but frankly... we just aren't that close yet.

"Opinionated" has a negative connotation to it, but I meant it as a compliment. I love having strong opinions about the things I enjoy. Makes for some good discussion.

I look forward to more discussions and hearing more of your ideas, whether I'm on the other side of the fence... or on your side throwing rocks at the people on the other side of it with you.

Cheers!

Likewise.

2011-03-10 21:10:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

Side note: I tried to play some of your levels last night but they're all locked. Your comment about being artistic, but not great with logic/obstacles jumped out at me, as I'm the same way. Always been an artist, and this game can look so dang gorgeous in the right hands. I'm all about the aesthetic.

Anyway, if you have any playable levels let me know. I'd love to try them out.

I WISH I had more playable levels! With logic being such a difficult thing for me and not being great at coming up with interesting and fun gameplay aspects, most of my levels get started and then sit in limbo for a while until I can find a direction to go in or figure out something that will work for me. Most of the levels on my Earth are from LBP, and were put on hold because I moved to Vancouver for 4 months and then because I knew LBP2 was coming out so I stopped some of them to concentrate on pre-builds for LBP2.

I guess I'm one of those guys who has too many ideas visually, and am easily sidetracked by new ones I get (which are pretty much daily, so I leave many of those behind too). I'm hoping to have a level up within the next month or so. I'm also a bit of a perfectionist, and if I'm not happy with it then it just isn't ready to share with the rest of the world. A few of my friends will look at my ships or whatever and think it's done, when I know there are still things I need to add or change.

It's also taken me a few years of mucking around with the way LBP building works to figure out my own shortcuts and building process with the tools. I'm finally comfortable with creating within the system, so once I figure out logic I think I'll be able to start cranking out levels at a comfortable rate.

I suspected you might be artistically inclined when you mentioned your post got screwed up, and that it was possibly due to rendering something at the time. Rendering is a term rarely used, and mostly in the art/film/animation/CG industry... so I thought you might work in one of those fields like myself.

2011-03-10 21:31:00

Author:
Rustbukkit

Posts: 1737

I'm also a bit of a perfectionist, and if I'm not happy with it then it just isn't ready to share with the rest of the world.

Same here. In LBP1 I'd spend a good month or so on each level I posted. For LBP2 I'm working on a series, so I want to upload the first three installments at the same time for story purposes. So yeah, that's still a good 3 to 4 months away.

I suspected you might be artistically inclined when you mentioned your post got screwed up, and that it was possibly due to rendering something at the time. Rendering is a term rarely used, and mostly in the art/film/animation/CG industry... so I thought you might work in one of those fields like myself.

That's cool. Yeah I'm an animator. What do you do, if you don't mind me asking? Feel free to PM me if this subject is a bit weird for the public forums.

2011-03-10 21:44:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

The Factory of a Better Tomorrow levels are pushing a communist agenda, and I like it.

And then, there is the Robot Lenin face sticker, the sticker with the sackboy workers that reads "New Life", the red metal material is all over the place in the factory... I'm sure there are more possibly socialist clues hidden in the Factory Of A Better Tomorrow chapter but I can't recall.

2011-03-11 02:34:00

Author:
SnipySev

Posts: 2452

I think some extra incentive to a crown rather than just prestige and a new costume piece is a good idea, I've never really been too motivated to try and win a crown because it's just not all that great.

2011-03-11 02:39:00

Author:
Jayhawk_er

Posts: 403

Same here. In LBP1 I'd spend a good month or so on each level I posted. For LBP2 I'm working on a series, so I want to upload the first three installments at the same time for story purposes. So yeah, that's still a good 3 to 4 months away.

Ditto... I'm also working on a series that is many months away from finishing... and for the same reasons.

That's cool. Yeah I'm an animator. What do you do, if you don't mind me asking? Feel free to PM me if this subject is a bit weird for the public forums.

Not too public at all... I state it in my profile actually. I've been in the animation industry for the past 10 years or so, and for a few years before that when I was younger and everything was still done by hand (as an opaquer). I don't animate (though I suppose I could... I just can't stand that kind of tedious work). I've mostly done QC and Editing, but I've also done Sound Effects Design/Editing, as well as being in charge of editing and organizing one series' music library. I've also done some work in live action film and television as Art Director, Set Dresser, Props, and Special Effects Makeup Artist. Mostly in independant film, but I've done work on some television shows and recently spent a few days on the latest Cuba Gooding Jr. film helping with set prep/striking, and set dressing as well.

So... been in the business long? Any shows I'd know your work from?

2011-03-11 03:02:00

Author:
Rustbukkit

Posts: 1737

[QUOTE][why would they need advantages when they're already awesome creators? /QUOTE]
Exactly. I know I'm not a great creator yet, although I am working on it, but honestly, the whole point of LBP(2) is to do with what little you have! If you've seen some of the amazing levels that people have made, they've made those levels WITH limitations, which makes it a worthwhile expierience. Now, if there was increased thermo for people, especially jsut a set group of people, they could do these levels even more easily, which would make them make even better levels that would overshadow everyone else, thereby creating a wall, where no one else could become better creators now that the same people have these advantages. If you really can't bypass the thermometer problems, then that's your problem. But maybe you should try and cut down on stuff or something, because everyone else seems to be doing fine with the amount of tools and space they are given already.

2011-03-11 03:11:00

Author:
BloodShot9001

Posts: 116

MM should give anyone who gets MM picks something that if you spent the time you could make on your own. For example some logic or a object.

2011-03-11 03:48:00

Author:
dogcity999

Posts: 86

That seems kind of pointless don't you think?

Once a certain someone finds out what that thing is, they're going to make it and maybe distribute it. Thus making the thing not seem so great.

2011-03-11 03:59:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal

Posts: 1799

Many people have probably already said all these things I'm about to say (I stopped reading around page 3...) but top creators are being rewarded. It's the crown. Everyone who has a crown is respected in the game. Now I do like rewarding them even more, but even if it was possible to expand the thermo, it would be kinda unfair (yes, that word again). And actually it wouldn't feel like giving top creators more possibilities, it would feel like restricting non-crowned people.

Aww, this reply sucks so much.

2011-03-13 16:48:00

Author:
Edeslash

Posts: 135

2011-03-13 21:15:00

Author:
Shadow Wolf TJC

Posts: 72

I may be in favor of granting extra publishing spaces for accomplished creators to be able to publish even more of those fantastic levels (much like in ModNation Racers), but I am totally against granting ANYONE more thermometer space for whatever reason unless EVERYONE was given more thermometer space to work with.

I don't see more thermo being that much of an advantage over another player. It's just giving the creator more space. That doesn't mean he/she will be able to make something others won't. But rather, they can make bigger levels. But again, I guess level links kind of make this a moot point.

But extra publishing spaces seems to make the most sense. I don't see too many people flipping out over that. Except for maybe those creators who crap out a level every other day.

Not too public at all... I state it in my profile actually. I've been in the animation industry for the past 10 years or so, and for a few years before that when I was younger and everything was still done by hand (as an opaquer). I don't animate (though I suppose I could... I just can't stand that kind of tedious work)....

So... been in the business long? Any shows I'd know your work from?

That's cool. Sounds like you wear a lot of hats. I bet that keeps it interesting. I've been animating for about 7 years now. Here's my IMDB page:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2416125/

I've recently been getting more into writing/directing. Just wrapped up my first short film last December. Just in time too. It was ridiculously stressful and it kind of burnt me out, so lately I've been putting all my creative efforts into my new levels. It's been fun.

2011-03-14 19:04:00

Author:
ccapel

Posts: 100

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