Archive: 42 posts

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It's been Mm picked so I'm sure a lot of people are aware of it, but I thought it deserved a thread. I'm not sure whether it should be in News and Media though, so mods please move it to Recommendations if I've made a bad move! Anyway, here it is. I can't see one thing wrong with it in comparison to the original. Discuss! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvw1wsFmPHI

2011-03-04 22:32:00 Author: Leather-Monkey Posts: 2266

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Maybe this should be in recommendations, but yup quite awesome.. I played that last night and was literally stunned.

2011-03-04 22:48:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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It does indeed "look" perfect and has a really nice start screen....but there's something really wrong with how it plays. It's incredibly easy and just feels wrong...I cleared 5 boards and then quit out of boredom. Still impressive nonetheless, and totatlly deserving of the MM pick, but I didn't buy LBP2 to play inferior remakes of 20+ year old games...where's the creativity? I'd happily play the original pac-man, it's still fun, I'll never play this level again. I'm slightly horrified when I think about how much code and processing power is being used to recreate stuff a modern toaster wouldn't have difficulty emulating.

2011-03-04 22:51:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

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I was pretty stunned by how well it played - I probably couldn't do any better using the LBP2 tools - but I agree with Fullofwin.... it doesn't play quite right, and I did notice many times I just passed right through ghosts without dying. HOWEVER, the difficulty does, in fact, kick up once you pass the first 6 or so boards. It should have probably kicked up difficulty a bit quicker to keep interest, but once the difficulty picked up I was having a jolly good time. I wish people would use the tools to kick it up a notch. It's easy enough to create logic that there's no excuse for not making an experience BETTER than the original, or different enough to warrant a LBP2 version.

2011-03-04 22:55:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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How does it compare to this (http://gameinternals.com/post/2072558330/understanding-pac-man-ghost-behavior)?

2011-03-04 23:04:00 Author: Gui_Rike Posts: 184

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How does it compare to this (http://gameinternals.com/post/2072558330/understanding-pac-man-ghost-behavior)? Wow, Pac-Man is freakin' hardcore. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfxzR5nRw0c

2011-03-05 05:13:00 Author: Unknown User

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Amazing creator skills...but where are this guy's ideas? This is a waste of talent imho. Why should I play this and not the original? I feared that this would have been the destiny of LBP2, and my worst nightmare are coming true. Really lack of innovative stuff, only copies of stuff...not everyone is a CCubbage or a L1ghtmare that understood the core of a game and deliver something fun of their own, but 1 to 1 copies are sad, well done, awesomely done, impressive, but sad. In more than a month I can count no more than 15 levels that I really loved.

2011-03-05 12:24:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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I don't think there's anything wrong in recreating old masterpieces. Obviously the game would be a nightmare if that's all it was. A healthy mix of both recreations and original content helps make the game become even more diverse and interesting in my opinion. I admit, investing this much time and effort into making something that's existed for decades is pretty loony. But loonies create some of the best stuff.

2011-03-05 12:37:00 Author: Leather-Monkey Posts: 2266

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Like with everything else you it's easier to start with something that is already there. I very much doubt that Mozart composed symphonies when he first started and neither does anyone who learns to play the guitar for example. Start with Bridge over troubled water and then eventually once you know a few tricks you start creating your own things. It's not a waste of talent to recreate something. It would be a waste of talent if all you do is recreating stuff. In fact than you could argue that that person is not talented at all, but rather just good at copying other people.

2011-03-05 12:39:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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I don't think there's anything wrong in recreating old masterpieces. Obviously the game would be a nightmare if that's all it was. A healthy mix of both recreations and original content helps make the game become even more diverse and interesting in my opinion. I admit, investing this much time and effort into making something that's existed for decades is pretty loony. But loonies create some of the best stuff. Like with everything else you it's easier to start with something that is already there. I very much doubt that Mozart composed symphonies when he first started and neither does anyone who learns to play the guitar for example. Start with Bridge over troubled water and then eventually once you know a few tricks you start creating your own things. It's not a waste of talent to recreate something. It would be a waste of talent if all you do is recreating stuff. In fact than you could argue that that person is not talented at all, but rather just good at copying other people. How many people has their experiments locked on their own moon? No one publishes every thing they do. You don't publish your perfect version of Bridge over troubled water on youtube. If the purpose is just learning how to build, you can just do it for yourself, in the moment when you publish it you just want to showcase it. And if you showcase something where you don't risk the judgement on your work, on your art, on your sweat, you basically only say: "Look how much I'm good!" And I think, again, that MM is doing a bad job promoting these copies with MM picks instead of original works, because people will feel incouraged to copy. I always hated copies in LBP1, all the Mario levels were just annoying when MrCowboyHat released the Oh!No series, I hate them more in LBP2.

2011-03-05 12:50:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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I'm totally fine with remakes & @ what Syroc said: I agree. I wouldn't know 90% of what I know about logic & sackbots now if I hadn't tried to recreate Alucard. It was a huge challenge make a sackbot that controllable to that spec. I always add to it, and work on it every now and then like it's a car I'm restoring in the garage... or a model building hobby or whatever. I can apply everything I've learned and done on that bot to any bot I make. Now it's just a matter of deciding what any character I make for a project should be able to do. So yeah... I like remakes, and original stuff, and remakes that become something different. I like the "idea" of remaking Symphony of the Nights levels, but I'd rather do like... a new adventure starring my favorite character. @Omega... it does encourage lames to try and "cash in" and can mold people into thinking that's what they should be doing, but those kind of people are going to be making something terrible anyway, whether it's based on the latest MM pick, or based on nothing. I'd probably have picked this level too, but I'd also pick something original I might've found... like Alic's Knight level.

2011-03-05 13:06:00 Author: Unknown User

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I have to agree with the majority, this level is just a copy of an ancient arcade that wasn't that impressive to me even when I played it 20 years ago. With all of the new possibilities of creativity, its unfortunate that levels like this are the ones being seen on the main page...

2011-03-05 13:13:00 Author: Bender Posts: 75

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This is the same stuff people on here said about me, Jaeyden, gevurah & the rest of the team when we put out Contra. I can't even count how many game boards and video comments I read where people responding said we were a bunch of talentless hacks who can't make anything original, and that LBP was only good for bad remakes. I complain about levels not getting played and MM not recognizing quality more than anybody, but I never want anyone to have their recognition revoked... it's not like recognition and plays is a scarce, finite natural resource that we have to drill a hole in the ground to get with only so much to go around by nature... just by design.

2011-03-05 13:20:00 Author: Unknown User

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I agree with what most of you are saying. If I wanted to play something that was exactly like Pac-Man then I would go and play Pac-Man. Really the only reason people care about Pac-Man is because it's one of the classics, but I think it's one of the most boring and annoying games I've ever played. There's hundreds of things the creator could do to make something better or different than the original, and I'd much rather see that. Even if it's just an LBP twist or a theme change. Unfortunately I think there's too many people who would criticize a Pac-Man level if it wasn't the same as the original. Even though it may be 1000 times better, the community will mostly only ever be interested in something exactly the same.

2011-03-05 13:54:00 Author: Nuclearfish Posts: 927

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This is the same stuff people on here said about me, Jaeyden, gevurah & the rest of the team when we put out Contra. I can't even count how many game boards and video comments I read where people responding said we were a bunch of talentless hacks who can't make anything original, and that LBP was only good for bad remakes. I complain about levels not getting played and MM not recognizing quality more than anybody, but I never want anyone to have their recognition revoked... it's not like recognition and plays is a scarce, finite natural resource that we have to drill a hole in the ground to get with only so much to go around by nature... just by design. To be fair, I believe those Contra levels are just a bit more complex than pac man

2011-03-05 13:54:00 Author: Bender Posts: 75

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Unfortunately I think there's too many people who would criticize a Pac-Man level if it wasn't the same as the original. Even though it may be 1000 times better, the community will mostly only ever be interested in something exactly the same. I'm a bit torn on this..... when I built Vectroids in the beta, it was.... asteroids. I thought it was pretty cool. But, when rebuilding it for the release I started to think "it's pretty easy to build an asteroids game in LBP2 (well, at least FAR easier than coding it). Maybe I should build it WAY better than asteroids, change the physics, and throw the kitchen sink at them." So far, it's seemed to work. I've seen the same people playing it hundreds of times. I would STRONGLY suggest anyone who can emulate a classic arcade game.... make it faster, more exciting.... update the graphics and the special effects. And if a mechanic can't be duplicated exactly in LBP2, replace it with something that WILL work in LBP2 so it doesn't seem LESS than the original game. If people see some of these games kicking tushy on the original games, it would really inspire them to spend the bit of extra time. Where the Contra levels were concerned, what I liked about them is they took the basic MAP of the classic games, but each level took on the personality of the separate creators. Each level had a COMPLETELY different feeling than the original game it was copying. I've played through the entire Contra series 3-4 times. The first one has a classic look, but then you get to Ninja's, Jaeyden's, Gevurah22's.... all of those have a basic look of the original, but are really their own creations. I'm going to stand up for PacMan as an MM pick, however.... I think just seeing this being done will inspire people. I agree that there are some fantastic levels out there that have not been MM picked, but it seems MM is trying to inspire people to push the tools to create non-platforming games and showcase what LBP2 is capable of... showing this kind of creation is definately the way to do it.

2011-03-05 14:16:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I'm a bit torn on this..... when I built Vectroids in the beta, it was.... asteroids. I thought it was pretty cool. But, when rebuilding it for the release I started to think "it's pretty easy to build an asteroids game in LBP2 (well, at least FAR easier than coding it). Maybe I should build it WAY better than asteroids, change the physics, and throw the kitchen sink at them." So far, it's seemed to work. I've seen the same people playing it hundreds of times. Maybe criticize wasn't the right word to use. But I think it would be interesting if you were to publish two levels at the same time - Vectroids and an exact Asteroids remake. Even though I'm sure Vectroids would be better, I'd expect Asteroids to get a LOT more plays. Even if you named them both Asteroids.

2011-03-05 14:21:00 Author: Nuclearfish Posts: 927

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To be fair, I believe those Contra levels are just a bit more complex than pac man I dunno... I hate the old Contra levels now, because they're so dated and I'd love to remake them (for the 3rd time). It'd take me a week or so to make a perfect bot & power ups, but probably only a day or two to make one of the levels, because remapping the layout is easy, and bosses, vehicles, objects and enemies are in my skillset. It's actually pretty annoying trying to get any controllable, smooth grid movement and follower logic to work with anything that's got more than 4 walls, even if he doesn't have the scatter & enemy following, or difficulty settings down. I think this guy deserves props for making it work with a pretty impeccable presentation. I could probably make this now that I talked it over with other creators and saw he was using a skinny follower radius to point a Pac-Man that never stops moving to select tag-walls he can't breach only at key junctions... but I probably wouldn't have thought of it on my own without going nuts for a week or two. I'm sure this guy pulled his hair out a few times to build this, since just grid movers by themselves were all breakable or convoluted til shiwayari posted his copyable grid mover, and that's an object demo that's really only known on LBPC. Though it probably would have been more impressive for him to make a grid moving dungeon crawler with all kinds of original scenery and enemies, any original content he might have made wouldn't be impressive at all without the control and navigation logic he perfected here for the recreation: gameplay progression. I'm more impressed by the work that went into this than I am by many of the all-original, ambiguous ideas I've seen with questionable gameplay and very unpolished interfaces & execution. i'm wondering who picks these really? Haven't they seen all of the awesome levels that have been made in lbp2? They don't see anything unless it gets to the front of cool levels, or if someone they know tells them to play it. There's hundreds of things the creator could do to make something better or different than the original, and I'd much rather see that. Even if it's just an LBP twist or a theme change. I'm sure a Sack-Man would seem more original, and tons of little things could have been altered, but have you ever played any of the hundreds of games Namco's made where they try to revitalize, update or change what Pac-Man is? They were all terrible, while the original Pac-Man is still unblemished in it's simplicity and authenticity when re-released or used as a bonus game for a Namco release. If a professional developer like Namco can't make an original version of Pac-Man or Pac-Man with a twist, or improve on the original without ruining it, how can some random guy on LBP be expected to do it? If he's going to do something that's not Pac-Man, why do Pac-Man at all? I do think Vectroids is better, though. Better execution, an improvement, and more original... but not being as good as the best doesn't mean it's the worst.

2011-03-05 14:24:00 Author: Unknown User

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I'd expect Asteroids to get a LOT more plays. Even if you named them both Asteroids. You are absolutely right. I'm not referring as much to popularity as replayability. I named it "Vectroids" specifically in order to get less plays... but more quality plays. It's working - my level has less plays than just about any on the MM picks, but has also retained a happy audience. If I had tried to build Asteroids, I wouldn't have liked it as much.... I'm not a big fan of asteroids. I changed the things I DIDN'T like about asteroids and made it something I enjoy. Which means more to me than popularity. In the end, I suppose it all comes down to what your goals are. Are you trying to please 100,000 people who treat levels as 1-time-play-then-move-on experience or are you trying to give less people a greater experience if they invest the time? It seems for the most part in LBP, it's a choice that needs to be made.

2011-03-05 14:32:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I would STRONGLY suggest anyone who can emulate a classic arcade game.... make it faster, more exciting.... update the graphics and the special effects. And if a mechanic can't be duplicated exactly in LBP2, replace it with something that WILL work in LBP2 so it doesn't seem LESS than the original game. If people see some of these games kicking tushy on the original games, it would really inspire them to spend the bit of extra time. We hope so anyways. Copying classics in LBP has always been the "easy" path to plays and hearts. I still loathe the mario recreations from LBP1, since they in no way matched the quality or fun of the originals. If you're going to remake something, you need to do it in a flashier way - and this is not as easy as it sounds. They don't see anything unless it gets to the front of cool levels, or if someone they know tells them to play it. Bingo. However I've noticed that you can also drop a solid level in their lap and they won't even blink at it. For all of the retro recreations that are making MM Picks, it's still luck based. I did manage to get Tom to play my version of Missile Command, but couldn't even get a Yay rating out of him over 3 plays. Go figure.

2011-03-05 14:41:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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Bingo. However I've noticed that you can also drop a solid level in their lap and they won't even blink at it. I did manage to get Tom to play my version of Missile Command, but couldn't even get a Yay rating out of him over 3 plays. Go figure. Yeah, seriously. Go figure is right. Missile Command is a better recreation of it's source material than this is... they probably just dig Pac-Man, kinda like they dig goofy, oddball stuff from time to time. I think if they're told to play your level, they go into it begrudgingly with a "this better be amazing" or they feel like they wasted their valuable time and time is money. Maybe it's a disadvantage to be recommended, unless you're so far beyond perfect, that there's literally no way to not impress. No wonder I can't make sense of how this all works and am totally fed up with Picks and Cool Levels, ranting in every other thread If I had tried to build Asteroids, I wouldn't have liked it as much I like that mindstate. It's why I don't want to rebuild the entirety of Symphony of the Night... I simply won't enjoy doing it, but I did enjoy making a *gasp* "zombie" survival out of the idea.

2011-03-05 14:48:00 Author: Unknown User

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Lots of wise words have been said, still...where are my fun 8-16 bit stuff on LBP? Seriously, I loved Vectroids, L1ghtmare's level (can't remember the name), Alucard level, (not played missile command yet) because they had a twist, they were not a simple rendition of a classic. I was amazed by Contra, CCubbage's stuff and most of all the calculator in LBP1 because that stuff was mindblowing IN LBP1 and everyone was "WTF", but, well, a PacMan rendition is almost a "given" in LBP2, anyone with a bit of patience can do it, maybe I would need a year, so...what's the deal? Where's the creativity, the art, the creator spirit beyond the simple skills and patience? Still, I continue to think that simple stuff, or stuff that just appears simple, in the end are the most fun. It's not PacMan or the copies that I blame, I blame the lack of will to create something personal, and the MM pick, that I perceive as an encouragement to copy.

2011-03-06 06:15:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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Yeah, I would prefer if MM picked original levels over remakes. I assume it's because remakes attracts more new consumers?

2011-03-06 07:48:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

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It looks nice, but the cornering is terrible (every time you turn a corner you stop and accelerate in the new direction) and there's no tunnel. How can anyone call that a "perfect" recreation of Pac Man?

2011-03-06 09:05:00 Author: tetsujin Posts: 187

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It looks nice, but the cornering is terrible (every time you turn a corner you stop and accelerate in the new direction) and there's no tunnel. How can anyone call that a "perfect" recreation of Pac Man? It looks like it

2011-03-06 09:29:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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Agreed, this is technically incredibly impressive. I'm sure it took forever to make and I would believe that this is as close as you can get to a perfect Pac-Man remake in LBP. But is it as fun as the original it's trying to emulate 1:1? No. All it does is invite you to think about how the control isn't quite perfect and the AI ghost routines are too easy. Like someone else said, I played it once and that's enough. Same with the Donkey Kong one and Zelda labyrinth one. Not trying to be a hater, I definitely appreciate the skill and time investment involved. I still rated them all "yay" for that reason. I far prefer the levels that are inspired by retro games, but have a unique twist. Vectroids was cool and I found Moon Lander very fun (never played Lunar Lander but it sounds like Moon Lander has enough differences that made it work really well in LBP). The controls on both were perfect and I didn't feel like the game was "compromised" for LBP. I also really enjoyed Bunchy's Adventure (http://lbp.me/v/xmf8gx), an original game done in a retro style that has perfect d-pad controls. The Sonic Adventure 3 ones were pretty fun, too. They recreated Sonic's moves in a manner which works in LBP and made original levels using the game's basic mechanics and characters. I do think Mm is going a bit nuts with the picks for retro remakes. I know they are pushing different styles of games and trying to show what's technically possible with the game engine, but when's the last time a platformer of any kind was even featured? Aside from Hansel and Gretelbot, which was a semi-sponsored project if I recall correctly, I think you have to go all the way back to Rogue Panda Rescue, which I think was there at launch. Oh well, to each his own, I guess.

2011-03-06 22:50:00 Author: Roo5676 Posts: 62

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the cornering is terrible (every time you turn a corner you stop and accelerate in the new direction) the tunnel is a yeah... probably something he'll work on, but was happy with in the meantime. ...but that issue is 'cause gadgets in LBP require some deceleration time (and therefore, acceleration time) for this kind of movement. Since he's got the 'keep going' mechanic, it needs that, otherwise you'd be trying to get inbetween two walls and align yourself with the space that lets you go another direction, and just keep going back and forth at junctions too quickly to ever get into the gap in the wall so you can start going in a different direction. Just like there's always a minute frame of delay when you want a NOT to kick on dampening for a fast object. It's LBP... it is what it is. It's good enough until he designs an entirely different system that will have some other problem.

2011-03-07 00:20:00 Author: Unknown User

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Where's the creativity, the art, the creator spirit beyond the simple skills and patience? Still, I continue to think that simple stuff, or stuff that just appears simple, in the end are the most fun. It's not PacMan or the copies that I blame, I blame the lack of will to create something personal, and the MM pick, that I perceive as an encouragement to copy. I think that's an overly cynical judgment - to assume that because someone recreated a classic game that they're lacking in creativity or the drive to build something for themselves? I can't speak for the Pac Man level, but for me, building Donkey Kong was a great way take the new tools out for a spin for a week (and frankly because there were so many bad remakes of it in the first game I figured someone had to step up and do it better) plus I really wanted the challenge of creating something with tools that were not built for that purpose. I can only imagine that that is why mm is picking them; because they push the engine in ways that they perhaps hadn't intended and while not necessarily original or artistic, they're very much technical accomplishments. I still have several original ideas that I'm working on as we speak, and now I have a much better idea of how to go about building them. I do agree that the retro games are getting a little old, and that perhaps them getting mmpick'd might be encouraging rampant copycats, but you have to imagine that it's inspiring some of these creators to at least try harder. I have no doubt that it won't be too long before people start pushing the envelope in other areas and the retro fad dies off (I personally have no plans for doing another retro level)

2011-03-07 02:07:00 Author: Chazprime Posts: 587

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Most people on here seem to be saying "where's the creativity" but do any of you remember how it was when LBP1 released? It was a sea of crap for a while. This is a whole new game and with the differences, it appeals to a wider audience, one that hasn't played the first one. So, of course there will be the uncreative/"noob" time for a while, then, once the toold get understood better, we will be blown away. There are a few levels / games out there that already, to those of us that can see through them to the logic and inner workings (I personally can't wrap my head around logic yet, but still get how hard it would be to do some stuff) are really impressed with. And about this getting picked and missle command not? Have you seen the complexity of the rules that govern the ghosts in that game versus the nonexistant AI in missle command? Case closed. I do agree it needs a tunnel to the other side, but other than that, it is perfect, which is hard to do. I've said my peace. Farewell.

2011-03-07 12:47:00 Author: Super_Dork_42 Posts: 1874

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Have you seen the complexity of the rules that govern the ghosts in that game versus the nonexistant AI in missile command? Case closed. What's your point...two completely different retro games...no need to disparage Missile Command, all that matters is if it's fun, not how difficult it was to create in LBP2. I'm totally fine with people wanting to remake retro games if that's what makes them happy (there's also clearly an audience for it) but getting the game play right is of paramount importance...not just a superficial similarity in appearance. I don't care how complicated the logic is for the ghosts in this Pac-man remake...they basically didn't care that I was there. If you're talking specifically about thegide's Missile Command...there's a huge difference...it actually plays correctly, has a discernable difficulty progression, correctly tallies score based on remaining cities/ammo...awards bonus cities, etc. Let's face it, the visuals for these retro games is super easy to achieve now...without getting the game play right you have nothing to write home about. This Pac-man is LBP2 good only...if this had been the version released in the arcades 20 years ago it would have tanked and no-one would be recreating it today. Vectroids is a great example of how to do retro right...what makes it great is how it plays...everything is rock solid and just feels right. You really can create fun arcade style games in LBP2, we should applaud the ones that play great and not just the ones that look great.

2011-03-07 14:39:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

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(I personally can't wrap my head around logic yet, but still get how hard it would be to do some stuff) are really impressed with. And about this getting picked and missle command not? Have you seen the complexity of the rules that govern the ghosts in that game versus the nonexistant AI in missle command? Case closed. False. The Ghosts don't detect Pac-Man and start following him. They don't scatter to 4 corners. They meander around mindlessly. The AI in the Pac-Man level = a sequencer playing through followers with a skinny radius, one for each direction, and follow whatever tag that happens to be in the the line of sight of the current sequencer position's active follower. If it's not that, then it's overcomplicated for the actions they perform... or don't perform in this case. There is none of the strategic path finding and player tracking that you seem to think there is. They don't spot Pac-Man, detect their environment, and understand the fastest route to get to him. It's like you're not even there, and they just go around and around in different directions. There is, in fact, no AI whatsoever. It's cycling through UP, DOWN, LEFT, RIGHT in an unwavering sequence. It's the equivalent of setting a sackbot to follow green tags, and turning them on and off with a randomizer. I gave gurichan his props for coming up with the simple movement system and a nice presentation, but what's happening in Missile Command is far more complex than that and requires much, much more variable tracking for scoring, memory (remaining units as stored values to be reemitted each round) & controlled randomization. Thegide's randomization for missile seeding, that scales in difficulty every round, by itself is actual AI, much more advanced than cycling between quasi-directional tag followers. You VS an opponent who is completely unpredictable and will eliminate you sooner or later. This Pac-Man level is an endurance challenge with little to no scaling in challenge. It's an endless cycle of stage 1. I think these kinds of misconceptions about what goes into a creation, or the process of complex creation in general, is why many creators and many immense endeavors never get the respect they really deserve as logistical wizardry, while many get relatively undue praise as magic tricks.

2011-03-07 14:45:00 Author: Unknown User

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Well, I can't speak for Gurichan's stuff, but I can say from firsthand experience that it was no walk in the park to program the scalable difficulty I used in my level. For a project that was incredibly simple on the graphics front, it took an incredibly long time to hammer out a game that felt like it was progressing. As for AI, I could have upped the difficulty and programmed my missiles to be a bit more intelligent and strategically target remaining bases/cities, but the game gets hard enough quickly enough that that would have been unfair. If you want to discuss the difference between sequenced "random" behaviour and AI, then consider the difference between the regular missiles and the smartbombs or MIRVs. My regular missiles are fired off from random points at randomly chosen target points. What gets fired off and when is sequenced, but because the source and targets are randomized, the game plays differently every time. But this is not AI. The MIRVs I designed are essentially regular missiles that have a chance to split apart at some point during their fall. If and when they split apart is random, but I designed the system so that these events occur more frequently, and earlier, as the game progresses. This is not sequenced. The smartbombs I designed are probably the most akin to true AI. These are regular missiles that detect and evade detonations in their path. They actively deviate from their chosen paths to avoid being hit. The player must use better targeting and fire missiles from the center base (faster missiles) in order to hit them effectively. This also, is not sequenced. If I were to go the pac man route (and I almost did), I would probably have implemented things differently than Gurichan. You can still get strategic path finding using nodes, but a logic system that chooses which node to go to next would need to take into account where pac-man is. I'm not saying this is an easy feat, but nodes could be weighed by a combination of the ghosts' AI tendencies and proximity to pacman. You can do wonderful things with direction combiners, and logic gates with partial strength batteries and tags, which effectively lets you make choices based on proximity. At the end of the day, though, all the technical wizardry in the world doesn't matter to most of the LBP community, and this is pretty disheartening. Regurgitations of recognizable content will always trump artistic quality, intelligent design, and technical complexity. If you want your 500k plays pin, I suggest you forget being innovative or original and go with simple and recognizable.

2011-03-07 21:14:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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the tunnel is a yeah... probably something he'll work on, but was happy with in the meantime. ...but that issue is 'cause gadgets in LBP require some deceleration time (and therefore, acceleration time) for this kind of movement. Since he's got the 'keep going' mechanic, it needs that, otherwise you'd be trying to get inbetween two walls and align yourself with the space that lets you go another direction, and just keep going back and forth at junctions too quickly to ever get into the gap in the wall so you can start going in a different direction. I think all these problems are perfectly solvable. If gurichan fixes that stuff, then we can maybe start talking about the level as something approaching a "perfect" clone of pac man...

2011-03-07 22:06:00 Author: tetsujin Posts: 187

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At the end of the day, though, all the technical wizardry in the world doesn't matter to most of the LBP community, and this is pretty disheartening. I don't think that's disheartening... Regurgitations of recognizable content will always trump artistic quality, intelligent design, and technical complexity. ...But that is. I mean, all the complex logic in the world doesn't (and shouldn't) mean anything if the level isn't fun. But I agree, it sucks that people will flock to games that they've already played in an environment that's better suited to play them. I can also understand the frustration in seeing MM do the same when there's so much deserving content out there that is either completely original or a remake that pays tribute without being a complete rehash. I have to admit, though, that having the Zelda and Pac-Man levels did serve a purpose to me when I was demonstrating the game to someone who asked exactly what was possible in the LBP2. It really does show the open type of environment for creating games that LBP2 delivers. However, after showing them those levels, I remember saying, "So, if they can do this stuff now, imagine what's possible." I think MM may be thinking the same way. Perhaps it's not so much that those levels have been made, it's that those levels can be made...

2011-03-08 05:17:00 Author: nextlevel88 Posts: 149

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I mean, all the complex logic in the world doesn't (and shouldn't) mean anything if the level isn't fun. I can't speak for anybody else, but that's never the polarized examples I mean. I'm talking about stuff that was fun, looks amazing, and obviously has wayyyyy more going on behind the scenes to make it work than the next level that is fun and looks amazing. I can't, personally, be amazed by something I could make in my sleep but that's only because I'm a creator and a player. I feel the same way about the logistics of a creation, as I do about the aesthetics & the gameplay. Those logistics often power the most memorable moments and elements of a deceptively simple game: like a run & jump platformer's ingenious obstacle behavior. There are many levels of what's good and what's not, and it can just vary from instance to instance, or a few things can be so outstanding in a level, that other flaws are forgivable. For the rest of what you said... you're right. MM likes to pander to the lowest common denominator in alot of ways, and it almost is the nature of the game they designed, and of being game designers. Find something in the community that can convey the sales pitch, and LBP2 as a fun hobby will sell itself. I'm sure they're not too keen to show anything that's too mindbogglingly complex, though, or people will just assume that making anything good or successful in LBP is too hard so "why bother" : that was already a stigma that comes with the notion that building a decent level in LBP1 takes more than an hour and "I don't have the time for this" being a big deterrent. We are, and always will be, a very, very small minority with no diplomacy and no place in the financial scheme. However, they want people to form teams and be amazing with professional marketing, because it will sell LBP2's image as "a platform for games" anytime something becomes an internet phenomenon... but, I don't see how they can expect people to feel motivated to fail as a group, rather than as individuals.

2011-03-08 05:53:00 Author: Unknown User

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I'm a creator and a player. This really is the biggest part of it, I think. I may have mis-spoke earlier when I said "...all the logic in the world doesn't mean anything..." because I didn't add "to the average player". I'm the same way you are, when I see a piece of technical wizardry going on behind the scenes of a level, or come across a part that makes me go "How did they do that?!", I recognize it just as quickly as the pretty artwork or clever platforming. It reminds me a lot of progressive rock music. To the average listener, they don't get it, which is displayed by the sales of that type of music compared to others. They just think of it as ****ery-sounding guitars and keyboards and out of beat drums. But among musicians, that type of music is revered for it's unmatched level of technicality. I also think it may be a bit early to get discouraged. Most people who play games have a form of undiagnosed ADD, which is common knowledge among developers. The ones that don't have it play Call of Duty online from the day it's released until the day the sequel is released. Most of the rest of us play a game until we tire of it and move on to the next one. It's imperative that that doesn't happen with this game because if people move onto something else, there's no players left, then there's no one to create for, then there's no one to buy DLC. If MM can get the idea out early that you absolutely must keep coming back to this game, it's good for everyone in the community. I think creations like these do just that. However, you're exactly right, they need to start praising some of the more original and complete concepts. They try to convince their player-base to keep coming back to LBP in-between the 300 other AAA-quality PS3-exclusives coming out this year. But there's no sense in it if you don't keep some of the talented people here creating something for them to come back to. EDIT: Wow, that was some ugly sentence structure at the end there. Hope you understood everything. Also, wan.ker.y is an informal musical term.

2011-03-08 18:18:00 Author: nextlevel88 Posts: 149

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EDIT: Wow, that was some ugly sentence structure at the end there. Hope you understood everything. Also, wan.ker.y is an informal musical term. Down with censorship!

2011-03-08 18:51:00 Author: tetsujin Posts: 187

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how can it perfect if it reproduces just the first stage, and not perfectly at that. I mean sure, okay, you can call it a faithful recreation of pacman, but why use the word perfect? Irks me. oih and regarding AI in pacman: Instead, it’s only Blinky, the red ghost, who doggedly pursues you throughout the game. Pinky, the pink ghost, simply wants to position itself at a point that’s 32 pixels in front of Pac-Man’s mouth. The blue ghost, Inky, is seeking to position itself at a similar fixed spot. And Clyde, the orange ghost, moves completely at random. it doesn't get more advanced than that.

2011-03-08 21:26:00 Author: ll_ye Posts: 236

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He should add the Google stage as an easter egg!

2011-03-09 16:52:00 Author: kirbyman62 Posts: 1893

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I must admit I was a little disappointed in the ghost behaviour (or lack of), but the tunnel being closed off actually surprised me as it's pretty easy to do. That said, I appreciate the AI is an enormous hassle to make. I started out making a pac-man level myself - the maze prototyping tools I made developed into a level editor for the racing game in my sig, but more relevantly I decided to start developing the AI for CPU Controlled cars in this game first, on the grounds I thought it would be easier to get the basics right on a track. All that had to do was figure out how to navigate player-made tracks - andI still tore my hair out for hours until I cracked it

2011-03-14 16:17:00 Author: matneee Posts: 66

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There's a lot of good points in this thread, it was nice reading this through. I was slightly disappointed with the Pac-Man level. If you want to make a 1:1 recreation, then please do make a 1:1 recreation and settle for nothing less. Having the gameplay and visuals up to par is awesome, but please, please don't stop there. I can't for the life of me understand why you can't tunnel from one side of the level to the other. That would be the most impressive part of that whole level. Then there's the AI. I did play through I think three levels, and I noticed that if you're close enough, the ghosts do seem to turn towards you at a higher percentage, but still it's nothing like the real Pac-Man ghost AI. I can't help but feel like the level is a hollow, beautiful shell of a level. This is not to say that I wouldn't be absolutely stunned by the visuals and the sound effects. But there's a lot lacking in the level. However what I really wanted to address is some of the points in this discussion about what makes a good level, getting plays and recognition and recreating games. I don't have anything against recreations, but if you make a carbon copy of a game, I expect it to be perfect. However I much more prefer recreating classic games with your actual flavor. Like the Mini Golf level. That is the perfect example of originality and stellar gameplay design while staying fairly true to the basic idea of a mini golf game. It is basically a copy of all of the million mini golf games out there, but still somehow you feel like it's different as you can attack other players, for example. The Contra levels are another good example; I am far less critical of their design compared to this Pac-Man level because the Contra recreation seems to have its own LBP flavour instead of trying to be perfectly Contra. NinjaMicWZ put it well when he mentioned that his preferences might be the way they are partially because he's more of a creator than a player. I can say the same about myself. And the point about not naming the level the same as the original (Asteroids being used as an example here) is exactly how I feel. I don't want to get a lot of plays because I ride on a name of a franchise, even though my levels might be rather obvious recreations of some game series. I want to have my own series with my own name and get plays by my creating merits. I am determined to create the best Mega Man remake in LBP2, but I will try to avoid copying anything 1:1. That means that I will never use music, characters, names or logos that are straight from any existing game, I will create everything by myself (or with help from the other project members). This doesn't mean that I won't mimic the gameplay elements of Mega Man or the structure of that game. I recreate it because I know it's massively fun to play through and I love the series. But I want to make it with my own twist, and develop my own weapons, enemies and levels. Another point that I loved in this thread was about the complexity behind the levels. This is something that makes me heart creators. When you play a level by rtm223 for example, as a creator it's easy to notice that there's a lot of small, extremely complex things going on in the background of the level. I love it when I get surprised at how well a level reacts to me playing it however I want. It's kind of a shame when the most difficult and ambitious work goes unnoticed by most players, but to me just being able to create complex, fully functional and bug free systems is something I can be proud of. I'm sure whenever I finish with my project (Sackbot X, *wink wink*), most people won't appreciate that it has a drop system that has specific percentages for each kind of drop a destroyed enemy can give. Or how intricate the camera and lightning system is, especially when paired with handling player deaths, enemy spawns and boss health / initiation systems. But just like CCubbage said about vectroids, I'm hoping I get more quality plays than a high quantity of them, and that in the end people will appreciate how finely tuned the whole system is. I don't like settling for 'almost as good as the original', and in turn I can be kind of harsh when judging other levels, especially if they are carbon copies of an arcade classic. EDIT: Refined a couple of points.

2011-03-14 22:26:00 Author: Linque Posts: 607

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It's kind of a shame when the most difficult and ambitious work goes unnoticed by most players, but to me just being able to create complex, fully functional and bug free systems is something I can be proud of. This was actually a fairly apocryphal point in a game called "The Movies" (lionhead studios, 2005). To those not familiar with it, it had many parallels with LBP, not with gameplay as such but more that it let anyone use the game to make their own creations (movies in this case), then upload them to the game site for watching and reviewing. Now, that game had a chart on it which was mostly based on how many views any given movie got. But each movie also had a score based on community reviews. This caused quite a lot of upset in the community, as people were spending weeks making polished movies with complexed stories and charactrs, they'd get rave reviews from all and sundry, and then with crushing inevitability a 30s snippet of a farting clown would instantly plop into the #1 spot. Honestly, some people got almost apoplectic about "the lack of recognition" they were receiving (not that I'm suggesting that is the case here, mind you. Basically, the viewers went with the farting clown over the nuanced historical period piece, because you know where you are with a farting clown. It might not be sophisticated, but it's short, entertaining, and comfortingly predictable. Which is why it got to the top of the hill, really. My point back then was always that the people with epic, highly rated movies who complained about their lack of chat-topping were rather missing the point that reviews indicate quality, charts indicate quantity. So I guess what each and every creator here needs to as themselves is this - Do you want to be a Historical Period Piece, or do you want to be a Farting Clown? So what's it gonna be, pilgrim?

2011-03-15 00:33:00 Author: matneee Posts: 66

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