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#1

How do you get an MM pick?

Archive: 243 posts

Discuss. 2011-02-15 21:26:00

Author:
Unknown User

Just two words: A Good Level.

Darn, it's actually three words... D:		2011-02-15 21:29:00

Author:
gdn001
Posts: 5891

There are probably many "Good Levels" that do not get picked. I think it must be a mixture of quality/timing/a little bit of luck. It is just the fate of the world that some things go unnoticed.2011-02-15 21:31:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

Just two words: A Good Level.

Darn, it's actually three words... D:

I'll have to try that. Thanks.		2011-02-15 21:33:00

Author:
Unknown User

So let's change it to "A Good Level That Got Lucky"
Short: AGLTGL		2011-02-15 21:34:00

Author:
gdn001
Posts: 5891

I imagine acquiring photos of a molecule in an unsavory situation could probably get you a Mm pick, maybe even a crown and money also.

I really wish there was a "non-serious" font.		2011-02-15 21:36:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

Are there any charms or rings you can wear that increase your luck stat?2011-02-15 21:37:00

Author:
Unknown User

Create a mini game or a remake.... just saying that by looking at the actual LBP2 MMpicks...
but sure it must be good... in a way or another.		2011-02-15 21:42:00

Author:
dajdaj03
Posts: 1486

ok, here's the list so far-

good level
luck
mini-game
remake of another game		2011-02-15 21:45:00

Author:
Unknown User

Are there any charms or rings you can wear that increase your luck stat?
I heard if you sleep with a picture of Spaff under your pillow during a full moon, you will wake up Mm picked.... although the side effects are quite extreme.		2011-02-15 21:46:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

The only way you can get an MM picked level is if a molecule plays your level and finds it fun enough to make the list... As far as Im aware there is no other criteria.2011-02-15 22:04:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

I've noticed that when a good level is out, the level is unusual, highly rated, or addictive. Bremnen has a unique level of the Mona Lisa out and now it's Mm picked. Well deserved. It's over 10,000 plays just like some other great levels that were picked. The pattern I'm seeing lately is that if a level is highly rated, it's may get Mm picked.

Also, when people make their own imitation of a game they love (not a remake of an existing game), it gets picked. Whether arcade style or just made up. They seem to like that too.		2011-02-15 22:07:00

Author:
siberian_ninja15
Posts: 444

The only way you can get an MM picked level is if a molecule plays your level and finds it fun enough to make the list... As far as Im aware there is no other criteria.

This.

Aside from having to make a good level in the first place, the hard part is getting Mm to notice it unless the level is already popular (on cool pages, trending etc.) For Clockworx 2 I tweeted as soon as I'd made it, which I assume Spaff noticed because it was picked within about an hour. So I guess that's the answer - get on Twitter if you aren't already and spam Spaff and/or Tom telling them to play your level until they finally give in. Threatening them or blackmailing in some way may help too, but that depends how desperate you are.


Another idea is to simply become and Mm employee, then you'll be able to pick your own levels. 		2011-02-15 22:24:00

Author:
Nuclearfish
Posts: 927

Thanks siberian

I'd say make something they find interesting or a unique use for the game.
As mentioned above, you don't even have to make a level, game, or film, just something interesting.
Mona Lisa is just bits of material and stickers made to look similar to the real life painting, it has no gameplay, just moving the cursor around to look at it, and it got MMpicked.

If that can get MMpicked, then any good level with interesting gameplay should have no problem.

As Wex said, MM just has to like it.		2011-02-15 22:26:00

Author:
Bremnen
Posts: 1800

The only way you can get an MM picked level is if a molecule plays your level and finds it fun enough to make the list... As far as Im aware there is no other criteria.

i'll take your word for it, wex. how do you get it so they automatically play your level as soon as it's published, to see if it's any good or not? Is it twitter, like Nuclear says?		2011-02-15 22:27:00

Author:
Unknown User

I have a crown, now my "LittleBigAmbition" is to get Mm picked....2011-02-15 22:27:00

Author:
Unknown User

1: Goodly built level with real work put in to it.
2: Fun game-play that makes you want to play again or see more of it.
3: Already popular(seems to me only highly rated levels make it to the list)
4: Custom style (has a look & feel to it that you don't get from others much)
5: MM needs to randomly play and beat it. (So i get the feeling if its to hard of a level for a MM to beat, they won't pick it)

Them are my guesses. *mew		2011-02-15 22:31:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz
Posts: 4261

Make something unique and make it well. Chances are your platformer level won't get spotlighted (as in Mm picked, not neccesarily LBPC) because we have seen so many platformers. You would have to make the best platformer ever. Please don't take my words on that, I might be horribly wrong.

If someone comes up with a completely new idea, maybe a really cool puzzle or something then that might get spotlighted even if it hadn't really taken too much effort to build. It is the idea that counts.

Personally I am pretty sure that you can get recognized if you build a fully working rubik's cube in LBP2... that's what I'm aiming at 		2011-02-15 22:38:00

Author:
napero7
Posts: 1653

i'll take your word for it, wex. how do you get it so they automatically play your level as soon as it's published, to see if it's any good or not? Is it twitter, like Nuclear says?

Well I didn't do anything for my one. MM obviously knew about it as it was in the tv ad promoting the game. The guys do like their twitter though and they browse this forum all the time to see what people are talking about.		2011-02-15 23:01:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

I'd say, they are looking for something different, you could make a well made platformer, but in honestly, there are 1000s of well made platformers so it needs to be incredible polished and different which showcases the LBP2s elements (luos_83 Betah level).

The peeps at Mm seems to be picking well made genre levels as well that showcase the flexibility of the create tools of it's ability to make games and not just levels.

oh, and what ever happened to them giving a reason why they picked a level? I miss that 		2011-02-15 23:15:00

Author:
PPp_Killer
Posts: 449

Is it as hard to get followers on twitter as it is to get plays in LBP? Should I hire an agency that handles twitter-for-the-stars kind of stuff?2011-02-15 23:25:00

Author:
Unknown User

I've been paying Spaff and Tom under the table for the longest considering Mm doesn't really hook them up financially with this economy, so it finally paid off. =P

As for the twitter thing, I guess you just have to be involved. I was pretty resistant to the tweet until recently. Follow peeps within the community (both LBP and gaming), promote your stuff through there, etc. Tom and Spaff check the tweets to them a lot as well. Their eyes are everywhere. :O

Ultimately, it's what they enjoy that gets them there regardless of the complexity or simplicity.		2011-02-15 23:32:00

Author:
gevurah22
Posts: 1476

Yeah it's pretty simple (doesn't mean it's easy...). You need a great level and to catch attention of Media Molecule.
So I guess anything is good, invitation to play on PSN, exposing your levels as many places as possible, getting friend with MM people, etc		2011-02-15 23:35:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

When ever I picture a level being MMpicked, I see a molecule in a pink bean-bag chair on LBP2 when his eyes widen and he shouts, "Come see this level!".
In a flash, every molecule in the building is surrounding the TV when one says, " Let's pick it."

As for reasons I think a person at Mm happens to stumble upon a lucky good level and happens to like it.		2011-02-15 23:37:00

Author:
captain sack
Posts: 88

oh, and what ever happened to them giving a reason why they picked a level? I miss that
Oh yeah!
What happened to those?
It might shed some light on the topic in question.

Here's my guess:
non-platforming (MM have showcase "new" LBP genres, ("platform for games")) mini-game(for replayability +1)/remake (has to be multiplayer) + a bunch load of luck. Bonus points if you're on that twitter thing apparently.
If it wern't for celebrities/companies pushing that bs (for marketing purposes obviously) it would not be popular. I still fail to see the usefulness that that thing. Anyways..
(if featured on tv = super bonus points, even if it's a lesser version of another level). Also helps if you are known by mm, etc.
Oh, and must be playable by a child over the age of 5. (infinite checkpoints, no difficulty, get points for not touching the controller, etc).

Obviously I'm generalising here, but you get my point.
But I'm guessing it's mostly luck. (does have to be average or better)
And it probably won't increase your chances if MM happens to see posts like this one.		2011-02-15 23:54:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

Well, I think fun can be subjective really. I think something can still be Mm picked if it showcases how deep the create mode's rabbit hole can be but not necessarily be "fun" to play. For example, I'm sure if someone created a... word processor, that could be Mm picked. Not "fun" like a slip and slide, but the wow factor is there.

I mean, in the beta that Windows recreation was Mm Picked, I think.		2011-02-16 00:39:00

Author:
gevurah22
Posts: 1476

Well, I think fun can be subjective really. I think something can still be Mm picked if it showcases how deep the create mode's rabbit hole can be but not necessarily be "fun" to play. For example, I'm sure if someone created a... word processor, that could be Mm picked. Not "fun" like a slip and slide, but the wow factor is there.

I mean, in the beta that Windows recreation was Mm Picked, I think.
very true, so a certain amount of cleverness or technical prowess would be a criteria		2011-02-16 01:26:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

So a slip and slide word processor ya say... hmmmmm... 2011-02-16 01:28:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

So a slip and slide word processor ya say... hmmmmm...
sounds very FUNctional		2011-02-16 01:30:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

Unfortunately, a lot of the people that were in the beta are getting a head start on those of us who didn't get in (or in my case, got the Prehistoric Move code instead, ugh!).

A lot of the levels seem to be from people who made things in the beta - and were able to quickly remake them once LBP2 came out - usually, even better since they had made them once before. I'm not arguing that they are not good levels, simply that those guys had a BIG head start.

Anyway, I have a question - does anyone know if having a "glitched" item in your level disqualifies it for being MM picked? Not the "illegal" glitches like Crowns and Pods, etc. - but more common things like the 3D layer glitch, or shrunken spawn portals (if you can call that a glitch).		2011-02-16 01:35:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

Nope, not at all! Mm loves those glitches!2011-02-16 01:36:00

Author:
Super_Clone
Posts: 849

Unfortunately, a lot of the people that were in the beta are getting a head start on those of us who didn't get in (or in my case, got the Prehistoric Move code instead, ugh!).

A lot of the levels seem to be from people who made things in the beta - and were able to quickly remake them once LBP2 came out - usually, even better since they had made them once before. I'm not arguing that they are not good levels, simply that those guys had a BIG head start.

Anyway, I have a question - does anyone know if having a "glitched" item in your level disqualifies it for being MM picked? Not the "illegal" glitches like Crowns and Pods, etc. - but more common things like the 3D layer glitch, or shrunken spawn portals (if you can call that a glitch). I don't think that matters... Because for a while Hazbells level that had the LBP2 tutorial background AND was imported from the beta was on Mm picks... Until they decide they couldn't have levels that broke their rules in the Mm picks so it is not Mm picked anymore 		2011-02-16 01:41:00

Author:
chinook3
Posts: 453

Anyway, I have a question - does anyone know if having a "glitched" item in your level disqualifies it for being MM picked? Not the "illegal" glitches like Crowns and Pods, etc. - but more common things like the 3D layer glitch, or shrunken spawn portals (if you can call that a glitch).

Mm has come out saying they don't mind the 3D layer glitch so it's pretty free reign when it comes to that. My level is full of the 3D glitch.

At the same time, there are several Mm picks levels that aren't from the beta nor were those creators beta testers, from my recollection. Like I said, if they enjoy it, it could be picked!		2011-02-16 01:49:00

Author:
gevurah22
Posts: 1476

Yeah, the only thing I have in my new level, Jumper, (hope to release it in a week or so), is the shrunken spawn portals (the large ones can be an eye sore if there are no decorations that fit in with your design. I don't expect my level to be MM picked, but I'd be disappointed to learn it wasn't even considered once they saw the small portal.

Good to know - thanks guys.		2011-02-16 02:01:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

I'm surprised that some of you seem to be taking this so seriously. Is it really that important to get picked? I mean if you make a level that's good enough to get picked, then that's all well and good, but if you're making a level specifically because you want a picked level, then doesn't that defeat the purpose? The point of picks is to hi-lite levels that are good/enjoyable/amazing/etc, but if you're just trying to check off a list of criteria, that's not exactly what I call good/enjoyable/amazing/etc.2011-02-16 04:07:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188

Create You've Got a Friend In Me from Toy Story

oh wait....		2011-02-16 04:09:00

Author:
AeroForce22
Posts: 392

I'm surprised that some of you seem to be taking this so seriously. Is it really that important to get picked? I mean if you make a level that's good enough to get picked, then that's all well and good, but if you're making a level specifically because you want a picked level, then doesn't that defeat the purpose? The point of picks is to hi-lite levels that are good/enjoyable/amazing/etc, but if you're just trying to check off a list of criteria, that's not exactly what I call good/enjoyable/amazing/etc.

I make things as an exercise in creativity, but I publish them to get plays reflective of the quality & effort. Point blank. My goal is not to be suffocated under a pile of steaming crap on a regular basis. It's a public venue, which is the reason why we're still making things two years later and why we didn't mess around with the level editor for a week, play our own levels a bunch of times, then move on to Fallout 3, Resistance 2, Mirror's Edge, Prince of Persia etc etc etc that Christmas.

I'm surprised you can participate in this social spectrum for years, and tirelessly mature your craft in tandem with thousands of others & still maintain the delusion that you don't create things not only for yourself as a hobby, but in some hope that they will be enjoyed en masse as much as possible. This is not a model train set you marvel at in your garage, it's an exhibition.

I just want to know what the criteria is, stylistically, so I can figure out what I'm missing, because it certainly isn't skill. From there, I can implement the missing ingredients into my recipe. Anyone else can do the same.		2011-02-16 04:15:00

Author:
Unknown User

I make things as an exercise in creativity, but I publish them to get plays reflective of the quality & effort. Point blank. It's a public venue, which is the reason why we're still making things two years later and why we didn't mess around with the level editor for a week, play our levels a bunch of times, then move on to Fallout 3, Resistance 2, Mirror's Edge, Prince of Persia etc etc etc that Christmas.

I'm surprised you can participate in this social spectrum for years, and tirelessly mature your craft in tandem with thousands of others & still maintain the delusion that you don't create things not only for yourself as a hobby, but in some hope that they will be enjoyed en masse as much as possible. This is not a model train set you marvel at in your garage, it's an exhibition.

I just want to know what the criteria is, stylistically, so I can figure out what I'm missing, because it certainly isn't skill. From there, I can implement the missing ingredients into my recipe. Anyone else can do the same.
Its a legit post, unless this is turning into a freedom free zone. I truly dont see why a mod would come in here just to criticize a desire to be noticed for your hard work by the people who gave you the tools to do it. Dont listen to him try to be picked if you want. You can find whatever enjoyment you want in this game, not just other people approved methods.		2011-02-16 04:27:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

So here are some details that might help rule out how some of the how to get MM picked theories. My level was published on Friday and MM picked the very next Monday. Friday afternoon I created a YouTube video but by Monday it only had 30 views. On Monday morning I created 2 forum posts. One in promotion zone at littlebigplanet.com forums and one here. On Monday my level only had 57 plays at 11AM (Central). Got back from lunch it had over 2000 plays. So I believe either timing that a MM employee happened to play my level that day or they do look at the forums and play. The least likely is they were one of the 30 weekend YouTube watchers that just happened to stumble upon the video

Also my level never went to Cool Pages.		2011-02-16 04:46:00

Author:
blastroid
Posts: 262

Sehven isn't in here to criticize people who just want to be Mm picked. He's just saying that some people rather just create for the fun of it and enjoy the game to its fullest. To me, Mm picks is just like the spotlights on here. It shows that you're not just another runt in the litter and something more...but that's my opinion.

Anyway, I try not to get my hopes high on getting picked because it usually leads to being depressed and thinking that maybe my level isn't worthy. So, I'd rather make levels for my enjoyment and not worry about what others think. Speaking of which, I'm working on a few levels but will not publish them until I'm ready.		2011-02-16 05:00:00

Author:
siberian_ninja15
Posts: 444

It's pure luck, and it's not need to do anything about quality level , it could be sense of the level whatever, best example from beta there was level with microchips demos.. thats it, in LBP1 we got don'ts and do's that does not shine in design. Whatever MM like you level and thing you deserve they pick it

But as i try to anlize LBP2 rate system i can actually give few tips how to be notice by MM to at least have a chance to be picked:

-Be on cool pages, they surly visit there
-Don't publish level on Friday, since you level will and up on cool pages for just a weekend then MM got days free
-Heart Molecules and look on there activity

Also don't think that if you level didn't get mmpicked on when you been in cool pages. The Lost for example was picked month after it first publication on beta, because on of Molecules discovered his level via my video on YouTube

Ofcorse you gonna see unfairness in this, but thats normal for all things controlled by humans that know some humans more well then others and have there opinions on glitches and so on.

So yea on the and is pretty random and it's all pure luck


I'm surprised that some of you seem to be taking this so seriously. Is it really that important to get picked?

In statistical way being mmpicked = being on special list for about at least a mouth on first page that that is view more then cool pages. You level end up to have constant play rate at least 30 every night for a mount, this makes you level destinate to have atleast 50.000 plays and mmpick is practically only way to reach 100.000 plays. No to mention most of community will know that level in there head and will talk about it all the time. So i'm really not suprice people are interested to be there.

Thing is we are not paid to making those levels and this might sound saddling for some people but for most creator deep in there heart create for fame, to be noticed, to be played every time you publish something. This is fuel that makes this community run, you won't create more if there no body to care about what you creating, if there no body to create for. Since this is main fuel ofcorse there will be some people what will aim to be in level heaven which is mmpicked list

But same as money some people just need less some more to satisfy themselves		2011-02-16 05:11:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

maybe I should take a break from this forum, or a break from standing up for what I think is right, but it was most certainly a criticism and a judgement on someones elses desire. With great power comes great responsibility. I will mimic something a mod once said on here(not quoted because i am not sure the exact words). Before you post something ask yourself, is it contributing positively? Basically, I saw that post as possibly making someone (not just the author of the OP) who desired to be Mm picked feel bad about it, like that was a wrong thing to desire. Well it is not.2011-02-16 05:19:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

There probably is more criteria than just "Mm likes it", as you can see, Spaff - Mm Community Manager - has hearted several levels (http://lbp.me/u/Spaff_Molecule/hearted_levels) , many were MmPicked, but some actually aren't; which indicates that although he or others may like them, the level may be lacking a component.

Only complete, innovative, unique, bug less, and ready made to be popular levels seem to get picked most of the time. I've noticed that not one pure cut-scene level has been chosen, likely because they want complete levels. Also, innovative as in: "Look at this level everyone, this is what LBP2 can do." Be it a remake of a game or something entirely new, this seems to be what Mm is looking for.		2011-02-16 05:24:00

Author:
warlord_evil
Posts: 4193

Well when a quality level and a quality molecule reeeeaaaalllyy like each other...... :3

The molecule will first get into position (controller in hand) and just go at it all night I mean really just get into it >=D and TADAAAA soon a steamin' hot fresh Mm pick is born

I hope this has been informative and not scarring in any way 		2011-02-16 05:27:00

Author:
Littlebigdude805
Posts: 1924

Well when a quality level and a quality molecule reeeeaaaalllyy like each other...... :3

The molecule will first get into position (controller in hand) and just go at it all night I mean really just get into it >=D and TADAAAA soon a steamin' hot fresh Mm pick is born

I hope this has been informative and not scarring in any way

Pictures or it did not happen.		2011-02-16 05:30:00

Author:
blastroid
Posts: 262

Most of the Mm picks have been like little games in themself, I think that what they looking for right now. but really just do what too if you get one, you get one if you dont you dont2011-02-16 07:30:00

Author:
jump_button
Posts: 1014

Looks Like there is a twitter homepage for Mm Picks! Who would have known! If you think your level is good enough to get Mm picked. Click this link to post it so Mm can see it!
http://twitter.com/#!/MmPicks		2011-02-16 08:38:00

Author:
Tawarf
Posts: 457

Or better:

http://www.mediamolecule.com/blog/tag/mmpicks/

Before it became a game feature mmpicks was commented by molecules that (i suppose) picked the level

Imo i still think it's random and it's not always about quality. Look on Street Fighter, that level design scream to be improved, yet it got mmpicked and i bet for same reason why i like this level. It's fun of funny random situations that may happen in that level 		2011-02-16 12:10:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

I will send you an answer on PM Ninja 2011-02-16 12:20:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

It seems that most levels that are MM picked have a unique quality to them. The levels are unique, they have their own style and they are just not the classic bounce, jump, swing and push buttons platform-based levels (or zombie survivals ). That is just my opinion, though. 2011-02-16 12:44:00

Author:
creator22
Posts: 162

zombie survivals

Mexican Jumping Zombies was the best level in the beta. Believe it.

I'm gonna try to find the artist formerly known Defmunky666 and see if he'll make a zombie combat bomb survival (bombiez?) with me that's so audaciously good, people will hate themselves for loving it.		2011-02-16 13:08:00

Author:
Unknown User

Or it could be whatever Mm like best?2011-02-16 15:00:00

Author:
Tawarf
Posts: 457

Sometimes I wonder if Mediamolecule even know I exist...2011-02-16 15:51:00

Author:
KQuinn94Z
Posts: 1758

Sometimes I wonder if Mediamolecule even know I exist...

That's the thing. Getting them to even take notice. If I knew they checked my stuff out, and didn't like it, I can live with that. No prob. I just want them to TRY my stuff.		2011-02-16 16:03:00

Author:
smasher
Posts: 641

Most interaction with a molecule was spaff sending me a pm about a year and a half ago on lbworkshop... Doubt he remembers me.
The thing is they knows all the big creators, and they will most likely be first choice for an mm pick.		2011-02-16 16:15:00

Author:
KQuinn94Z
Posts: 1758

Most interaction with a molecule was spaff sending me a pm about a year and a half ago on lbworkshop... Doubt he remembers me.
The thing is they knows all the big creators, and they will most likely be first choice for an mm pick.

I feel ya. The thing that irks me is that I know they know me & I was crazy enough to think I could pick up right where I left off.

I don't want all the glitz & glam. I don't even want MM to "PLAY MAH LVL"... I just want to see a speech bubble over a level when I publish it that says a bunch of people are playing it for awhile. This thread is a hypothetical trick question. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who wonders.		2011-02-16 17:31:00

Author:
Unknown User

I dont have a mm pick but in my opnion you need a couple things to get a mm pick.

Bomb survivals
h4h levels
visible dark matter
copyed levels............

wait i mean having origanality and luck.... 		2011-02-16 17:50:00

Author:
WESFUN
Posts: 1336

The thing is they knows all the big creators, and they will most likely be first choice for an mm pick.

I've never had one... neither has comph. Maybe "big" is relative 'eh?		2011-02-16 17:56:00

Author:
Morgana25
Posts: 5983

I think it is all timing. Did you happen to promote/publish that level when it just so happens a MM employee is looking at the forums or playing newest levels. Also maybe it was not a MM employee that played your level. Could be a friend of an employee told them about it. For my level it went from 57 plays and was not on the Cool Pages, only published for 3 days and it got picked. I think it was the forum posts just at the right time.

PS: Also on other forums I created a signature linking to the level post. so everytime I posted in other topics a MM employee always have a chance to click the signature.		2011-02-16 17:58:00

Author:
blastroid
Posts: 262

no. I just published it when it was done. I would probably go spam other forums, but since I don't really post at any of them, I'd feel like a leech.


I've never had one... neither has comph. Maybe "big" is relative 'eh?

maybe he only meant steve_big_guns, gevurah, jackofcourse, & johnee

LBP1 wasn't the era of the insta-pick, since they've only recently started using MM picks as an actual, regularly supported feature of the game with semi weekly updates and openly asking for level submissions from the player base.

Technically, compher has one. arranged or not, it was 100% deserved 'cause it was a super perfect level & it really gets no better than that for what it is, plus it was 2 times in the making.

...and won't Hansel & Gretel get at least an insta-pick for the intro level to lead players to rest of it? I seriously doubt a project that epic wouldn't do well without one, but it doesn't hurt & more than likely meets every criteria bang on. you're sure to reap some long term love from it, even if it's under it's own account, and you should.

on a similar note, I've always thought it was absolutely stupid that subterranean setbacks was the winner, but isn't a pick. it's nonsense.		2011-02-16 18:25:00

Author:
Unknown User

Ya, jokes don't translate well in text do they. Hmph.

Didn't mean to imply anything by posting that I hadn't had one.

It's different when it's not on your own account though wouldn't you agree?		2011-02-16 18:40:00

Author:
Morgana25
Posts: 5983

I don't want all the glitz & glam. I don't even want MM to "PLAY MAH LVL"... I just want to see a speech bubble over a level when I publish it that says a bunch of people are playing it for awhile.

Yeah. I guess that's what it boils down to for me too, but getting a level MM picked is a great way to achieve it.		2011-02-16 19:05:00

Author:
smasher
Posts: 641

Hold it everyone. I think Mm picks are great and everything and congrats to everyone that has receved them but..... Whats the point of having a Mm pick other then fame on a e rated game. (in my opnion a chep game design program) we should just enjoy LBP, LBP PSP, and LBP2 as a great game. Yes Mm pick are good yes people can create amazing things, and yes popularity feels good.( I am not saying this because I dont have a Mm pick. I am saying whats in my heart.) But can we think about what we have become creating a family young and old from country to country. Thats what LBP is all about in my opnion. Not some silly compatition thing.2011-02-16 19:38:00

Author:
WESFUN
Posts: 1336

Hold it everyone. I think Mm picks are great and everything and congrats to everyone that has receved them but..... Whats the point of having a Mm pick other then fame on a e rated game. (in my opnion a chep game design program) we should just enjoy LBP, LBP PSP, and LBP2 as a great game. Yes Mm pick are good yes people can create amazing things, and yes popularity feels good.( I am not saying this because I dont have a Mm pick. I am saying whats in my heart.) But can we think about what we have become creating a family young and old from country to country. Thats what LBP is all about in my opnion. Not some silly compatition thing.
Well, the minute you involve stats and "achievements," people will make it competitive.		2011-02-16 20:10:00

Author:
gevurah22
Posts: 1476

I don't have any actual knowledge of how Mm goes about selecting their Mm Picks but I'm pretty sure there isn't any formula that will get you there.
In all likelihood they have weekly Mm Pick meetings or have employees submit levels they like via company email to a few employees tasked with the job of reviewing those levels and adorning them with Mm Pick status. If it is anything like the place I work someone probably has to go around and personally badger every employee to remind them to submit some of their favorite levels for Mm Picks.

Just make the best level you can, don't rush it out the door, polish it up and make it a shining star. Almost every creator thinks that their levels are some of the best levels out there, could be true... or not. You spend a lot of time on a level and feel you should get some recognition for it, understandable, but there are hundreds of thousands of other creators out there that feel the same way. Not every level can be picked and it isn't Mm's job to play every single level out there. Your level has to stand out to the community in general, that is the end audience and the purpose behind the Mm picks in the first place. Mm Picks is purposely designed to not be formulaic, they are hand picked levels from the people that made the game. Who knows what interests they have at any given moment that will inspire them to want to submit your level to the list.

In the end, make the levels that you want to make, if they get picked great! If not, hey, at least you have a level you are proud of. I absolutely love one of my levels, I play it all the time. Over the past year and a half that it has been published it has slowly crawled up to 350'ish plays. I think it should get more, sure, but I'm content in the fact that a good majority of the people that played it have enjoyed it. I take what I can get.		2011-02-16 21:06:00

Author:
Osprey71
Posts: 93

This is all I've got


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnJt9p-sHho		2011-02-16 22:32:00

Author:
Unknown User

ahhhhhhhh i dont create tht good my lvls will never be mm picked!!! why!? why!? lol2011-02-17 13:27:00

Author:
Unknown User

That's the absolute most ironic thing I've ever seen.2011-02-17 13:55:00

Author:
Unknown User

So the second top down shooter in a row has been MM picked. It is also by foofles. Dont get me wrong, its a great level, but... Its foofles third MM pick. I mean, there are so many great levels out there to MM pick, from people who have so much talent but no popularity, and MM picks someones level who already has two other MM picks... Its kinda lame, because there already is a top down shooter right below it on the list. Dunno if thats just the jealousy talking, but thats the way I feel.2011-02-17 14:29:00

Author:
ATMLVE
Posts: 1177

I've never had one... neither has comph. Maybe "big" is relative 'eh?

That's because you nor comphermc have released a level on lbp2.
It's highly likely that both of you will get an mm pick at some point, and they will be deserving picks. But it would be more likely that the molecules will be interested in playing your level than someone else's level that is equally deserving. They know you. They should rightfully be excited to play a level released by you, because you make some of the best stuff out there, but it's just more difficult for the person they never heard of.		2011-02-17 15:17:00

Author:
KQuinn94Z
Posts: 1758

And you guys still believe in criteria? It still look like it's random liking of MM... and they simply like Foofles Still they also pick other less known creators so it's not so unfair.

At least now you guys have image what would it be if cool pages was controlled manually as some people dream about


That's because you nor comphermc has released a level on lbp2.

Prius is actually his work, through i don't see him be credited there (at least i didn't noticed		2011-02-17 15:21:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

I thought now foofles is finally getting the recognition he deserves. I distinctly remember nearly 2 years ago on lbworkshop a post from foofles about a lack of plays (or something like that). I played his levels as soon as I seen that post and was amazed, but some of them barely had 50 plays. I was sad for him and knew he deserved more. Now he's one of the best known creators out there and I'm happy for him2011-02-17 15:29:00

Author:
KQuinn94Z
Posts: 1758

Dont misunderstand my words. Foofles is an outstanding creator, deserving of the MM picks. It has nothing to do with him or his levels at all. It is simply the fact that 3 MM picks is a little extreme. One per person should be enough, to make room for other deserving creators, rather then giving the same one fame over and over, which really after one MM pick makes no difference.2011-02-17 15:52:00

Author:
ATMLVE
Posts: 1177

I though mmpick is for levels not creators, keep in mind there no limit for mmpicks so it's not like better creator should give chance to others because there specific number of mmpick per specific time ;]2011-02-17 16:28:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

It has nothing to do with him or his levels at all. It is simply the fact that 3 MM picks is a little extreme. One per person should be enough, to make room for other deserving creators, rather then giving the same one fame over and over, which really after one MM pick makes no difference.

I understand what you're saying... but it would be irrelevant if everything quality was on there. I know in my hearted lists, I don't just heart the author's best level, I heart ALL the one's they have that I think are amazing & that I enjoy. The pick list would just be a long list of awesome, and if you don't feel like playing part 3 of epic awesome super level by the same guy again, scroll down some more.


Still they also pick other less known creators so it's not so unfair.

yeah, they picked L1GhTmArE's Cyber Strata level almost immediately and I was (still am) extremely happy for him & proud of him. As soon as I saw it, I knew it would be MM picked. For once it actually happened when I said "I really hope this gets picked, man. it should"

Pretty much everything MM Picked so far has deserved it. Foofles levels have been killer, fun & crazy tech examples & he's a master at, and pioneer/originator of something that literally kicked down the door on tons of new ideas & gameplay possibility in LBP2. Why wouldn't his newest masterpiece be picked, if it's just as good or better than his last in it's own way? That's my attitude about my own stuff AND everything I see from friends and strangers alike that I think is amazing, near perfect and oughtta be getting picked and played. Don't be afraid to say your level deserves a million plays too, if you're competent enough & have a refined enough pallet to know quality in other stuff when you see it. "I'm awesome" does not equal "you suck"

You can say "MM can't play everything" all you want, but I really think the root problem is relying on a closed circuit of information, with the occasional accidental find.		2011-02-17 18:00:00

Author:
Unknown User

I though mmpick is for levels not creators
Indeed. And arguably the MM Picks is for the benefit of players, not creators (though I'm sure many, many people will disagree with me here, see the infinite spotlight "discussions"). And of course that's an entirely different discussion.


Clearly MM Picks is a simple case of did MM play it? Did they decide they wanted to feature it, for some reason? Chances are that reason is just subjective "is it pretty kewl", though at this stage in the game I'd speculate that it may also be about things that show off good use of the new tools. Clearly those levels that are part of some official or semi-official project are getting automatically picked.

But the important thing of course is did MM play it and that's the tricky part, because they aren't gonna have time to play a lot of levels and they are pretty much gonna use exactly the same methods the rest of us do to find levels:
Levels by creators we know and who's stuff we like
Levels by Our friends
Recommendations from people whose opinions we respect
Levels we come across randomly (be it through forums, videos, trending on cool pages / lbp.me, whatever.

Of course, this creates a very clear hierarchy of precedence, much the same as it is for most people. Assuming that the people we respect use a similar method to find their levels to play, the top 3 categories start to very quickly become a moderately small pool of creators pushing everyone else into category 4. Which is sad, but understandable, really. I can't imagine anyone playing every level as it is published, just to make sure that the picks are fair, and the Molecules are very busy - even Spaff who often appears to have a job that involves mostly just being cheerful has a crapload of proper work to get done



keep in mind there no limit for mmpicks
Exactly, the argument about not giving creators second picks would be reasonable if there was some quota to be fulfilled and giving Foofles another pick would take up a slot that someone else might have. Which, as far as I'm aware, is not the case. Given the fact that if the molecules are going to play his levels anyway (see list above and how he certainly fits into category 1 - even if they don't play it as part of their attempts to find pickable levels, they are going to play it anyway), then specifically not giving his level a pick if it deserves it seems somewhat pointless. Surely?



But then, I'm sure this all seems a bit hollow when considering I had an MM pick, one of the "by default" ones. TBH though, I'd rather have not had it and if the level wasn't part of the advertising campaign, I'd have had it taken off the picks list. I've still not got my head around the obsession this community has with "fame" and hollow statistics, no good has ever come of it and none ever will. I do feel for those people who can't get more than a handful of plays, because that sucks. But I can't help feeling that those people who want thousands upon thousands just seem to have lost their way somewhere....



Seems I inadvertently expanded upon your final point there ninja. Though I'd say that the flaw described is mostly caused by the simple reality of the situation. There isn't really a good way to efficiently find all the best levels. You can probably even scratch the efficiently TBH....		2011-02-17 18:16:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

rtm223 very very well said. That post should be a MM pick.2011-02-17 18:25:00

Author:
blastroid
Posts: 262

Well if it does get picked I'll be sure to have it removed 2011-02-17 18:27:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Well...

1. Has to be very different to normal levels... (A level in Create Mode) And DAME! I thought of that 2 years ago!

2. Has to be good...

3. Multi-path...

4. Inspiring...		2011-02-17 18:35:00

Author:
Unknown User

I don't have an obsession with fame, per say. I'm more obsessed with building up as much respect as a creator to fit into the small group of epic people like morgana, rtm, comphermc, jack, wex, sbg, poms etc.
An mm pick would help anyone get closer to this. That's why I want one. Surely it's almost impossible but I like to think I'm trying my best.		2011-02-17 23:29:00

Author:
KQuinn94Z
Posts: 1758

but I like to think I'm trying my best.

I've played your best, and it isn't any less quality than the best by anyone you named. Don't let anybody tell you different and that you shouldn't proudly present it before the king and his court, everytime.


But I can't help feeling that those people who want thousands upon thousands just seem to have lost their way somewhere...

I lost my way when I realized that I can't just be as good as the best, I have to be better than the best to be anything at all... and that's just not possible. So all I can hope for is plays. When gevurah put out Azure Palace and geosautus put out World of Color, I put out False Idols 1 & 2 that same launch month at the same time. Before Seven Days came out, Neverynnal and I put out the first cocreate level, which was also the first co-op level. When the Mightymite tank was out, I put out that crazy Metal Slug. When I was brought into the Contra project that gevurah & jaeyden worked on, it was 3 months after the fact and I got my level done in 4 days. Me & Gruntos worked on equal terms on Twin Towers. Gruntos, myself, jackofcourse, and kappa all worked on equal terms for Media Molecule in the cocreate beta. While working on that for MM I put out an insane reaper boss for the boss contest that was due in 3 days & jump_button did my town scoreboard area for me (thank God cause I needed a team to enter), and immediately after I submitted mine I went to help FULGORR with his medusa boss entry. Right after that, a few months before you put out Subterranean Setbacks, I put out Free At Last and I'd like to think that we were equally contributing to a then uncommon 'way over the top, logic driven & packed to the brim for an hour' genre, along with people like compher and others. Then I went MIA.

I was rusty after a year off, but that didn't last long at all. Both my last two spotlight levels were made in less than 3 days. In the LBP2 beta I had my Brain Ape demo out, and the only sackbot stuff that was as complex conceptually was compher's wizard & there was nothing else like it out there. It was humorous, polished & fun and should have hit every nerve. It got a couple thousand plays in a week, maybe 7 sad faces out of 4 or 500 and launched onto that closed highest rated page. No screw you, Ninja. We won't even look at it.

I had that Tank Top Deathmatch finished in a day and a half right after I aced & 100%'d story mode, rebuilt from scratch just like rtm had to do with his penguins and it was better & more complete than 99% of the stuff on the server at the time. That should have hit every nerve as a complete package too. Just before gevurah put out his Fist of Craft Earth this week, I put out that Alucard bot in my Castlevania survival and it's leagues ahead of everything else in terms of play mechanics and character action & my only published competition in the genre at this time is Fist of Craft Earth... no slouch on looks, entirely geared towards fun for casual players, complete with title and all that jazz... but no, sorry, Ninja... It's not even worth knowing about. I've put out around 40 levels since '08, that are at least in the top 75 percentile of release quality for their time & the only person who's put out more is evilpanda.

I know 'the joke's not funny if you have to explain why it's funny' but I honestly don't know what more I can do to get better results. If anyone takes this as self indulgent egotism, fair enough, but since I don't have a pink ribbon to wear, I have to make my own... and me saying I want my propers, doesn't mean I want to take anyone else's.		2011-02-18 00:27:00

Author:
Unknown User

There's nothing wrong being proud of your work and wanting the attention it deserves, but I have to ask you man, strip away all the bells and whistles with the Mm picks and the yays/boos/recognition, etc. Do you wholeheartedly enjoy creating?2011-02-18 00:42:00

Author:
gevurah22
Posts: 1476

I would enjoy creating less if my level of equal quality got an unequal amount of attention.
Wouldn't it be interesting if levels had no creator names attached?		2011-02-18 01:03:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

There's nothing wrong being proud of your work and wanting the attention it deserves, but I have to ask you man, strip away all the bells and whistles with the Mm picks and the yays/boos/recognition, etc. Do you wholeheartedly enjoy creating?

I also love making music, but I don't step into a cypher without the full intention of ripping it to pieces and seeing the slackjawed looks after I'm done. Just you asking me that, when my dedication to my craft & the amount of myself I pour it into it should make it visibly obvious that I love what I do, and love it so much I continue to excell at it and raise my own bar despite the adversity & futility and haven't quit out of frustration yet... means my work doesn't speak for itself, and it's no wonder I've got something to prove.

You know where I was a for a year before I came back? In a homeless shelter after a fire. You know what I did when I got back on my feet and ahead financially? I bought a PS3 and LBP. The only thing I'd rather have bought if it wasn't such a huge buy in, would be studio equipment. I even have 'level ideas' I drew out during that time off, in the same notebooks I wrote lyrics in to pass the time. I'm not chasing the create trophy & never was.		2011-02-18 01:22:00

Author:
Unknown User

I would enjoy creating less if my level of equal quality got an unequal amount of attention.
Wouldn't it be interesting if levels had no creator names attached?
I had an idea like that, but with creator hearts, would that terminate H4H and other hearting problems?		2011-02-18 01:27:00

Author:
warlord_evil
Posts: 4193

I also love making music, but I don't step into a cypher without the full intention of ripping it to pieces and seeing the slackjawed looks after I'm done. Just you asking me that, when my dedication to my craft & the amount of myself I pour it into it should make it visibly obvious that I love what I do, and love it so much I continue to excell at it and raise my own bar despite the adversity & futility and haven't quit out of frustration yet... means my work doesn't speak for itself, and it's no wonder I've got something to prove.

You know where I was a for a year before I came back? In a homeless shelter after a fire. You know what I did when I got back on my feet and ahead financially? I bought a PS3 and LBP. The only thing I'd rather have bought if it wasn't such a huge buy in, would be studio equipment. I even have 'level ideas' I drew out during that time off, in the same notebooks I wrote lyrics in to pass the time. I'm not chasing the create trophy & never was.
That's cool man and more power to you for powering through the adversity you had to face. There are many of us that have put in huge personal investments to this game and some more than others and it's only natural to feel the way you do. The reason I asked the question is because it seemed you're making this extremely personal as if Mm is outright snubbing you and it was twisting your perception of why we do what we do. If it felt like I was questioning your integrity, apologies. If you obviously didn't have that create passion, you wouldn't have answered the way you did.

We all want people to get there just due when they've put in the hard work necessary to create something great. Sadly, because of the system we are bound to, it's very much reliant on luck of the draw.		2011-02-18 02:14:00

Author:
gevurah22
Posts: 1476

The reason I asked the question is because it seemed you're making this extremely personal as if Mm is outright snubbing you

Funny you should say that. I sent Spaff an email, since it was right after the project I worked on saying sorry I have to leave but I'm out on the street yada in a short sentence. He replied saying 'that's terrible, what happened?' or something - i didn't want to burden a stranger with drama, so I never replied. I sent him one a few weeks after I'd gotten back saying 'hey, don't know if you remember me, but i worked on that level for you guys in the beta and was one of the people who made Little Big Contra. I finally got a ps3 again and I'll be going full time in create again' - not a word. No biggie, he's a busy guy & they must get thousands of messages a day.

I sold everything I had in storage to get back in time for the beta and still be able to pay my bills, and most every one of my big creator friends knows it from me spamming my facebook with ebay & craiglist ads and seeing the most excited message i've ever posted when I finally got a PS3 again. Then the beta actually starts and everyone I know is in it except me, even people who weren't working on stuff for MM... and I'm literally like wtf? Luckily a friend hooked me up, and a few tried to as well, and I can call them a friend for that. Then my NA code I was supposed to get anyway never came even though I was in the cocreate beta and could sign into the beta boards. On top of that, I hear from another friend that a few people are saying I fell off (didn't last long, did it?) and aren't good anymore.

Since then I can't shake the feeling that the lock's been changed on the door & all I can do is wonder who's shirt I spilled my drink on?		2011-02-18 02:37:00

Author:
Unknown User

Honestly, I don't know what to tell you but at least from this end there is a general concern for you man. But not getting that e-mail back from Spaff doesn't mean they've locked you out. They're all really cool peeps over there at Mm and it can get a bit hectic, especially before and after game came out. I personally wouldn't want to see you leave because of frustration.

I don't know why people would say you fell off though.		2011-02-18 02:47:00

Author:
gevurah22
Posts: 1476

Then the beta actually starts and everyone I know is in it except me, even people who weren't working on stuff for MM... and I'm literally like wtf? Luckily a friend hooked me up, and a few tried to as well, and I can call them a friend for that. Then my NA code I was supposed to get anyway never came even though I was in the cocreate beta and could sign into the beta boards.
maybe you should have just asked Tom that something gone wrong with getting your code?
that happened to me, my email never got it for some reason even tho i was a water beta member before,
and was suppose to get it. so i told Tom about it. then he PMed me my code no problems. *mew		2011-02-18 02:49:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz
Posts: 4261

it's all chance i think man i made my level back in the first 3 months a year and i bit go by, i dont even play lbp and more(sad i know) and they somehow found my level and picked it. its chance and a bit of luck. still id rather have the crown like you or the high five like gevurah lol.2011-02-18 02:58:00

Author:
malteseassassin
Posts: 66

it's all chance i think man i made my level back in the first 3 months a year and i bit go by, i dont even play lbp and more(sad i know) and they somehow found my level and picked it. its chance and a bit of luck. still id rather have the crown like you or the high five like gevurah lol.

Your level been picked mouth and half after publish:

http://www.mediamolecule.com/blog/article/mm_picks5/

You level is prime example that it's not all about quality ;]		2011-02-18 05:12:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

I'm surprised you can participate in this social spectrum for years, and tirelessly mature your craft in tandem with thousands of others & still maintain the delusion that you don't create things not only for yourself as a hobby, but in some hope that they will be enjoyed en masse as much as possible. This is not a model train set you marvel at in your garage, it's an exhibition.

I just want to know what the criteria is, stylistically, so I can figure out what I'm missing, because it certainly isn't skill. From there, I can implement the missing ingredients into my recipe. Anyone else can do the same.

That's a fair point, but I don't consider hoping "they will be enjoyed en masse" and "Mm pick" to be the same thing. My point wasn't that you shouldn't want your level to do well and be enjoyed by people. My point was that if, while creating your level, you do things a certain way to increase your chance of getting picked rather than because it's the artistic direction/style you wanted to go for, then I would consider that to be having your priorities in the wrong place. Basically, I build the model train the way I like it and then set it up as an exhibition and if people like it, that's great, but if they don't, then oh well. I wouldn't take out a part of my train set that I really liked and replace it with something that might get it picked or make it more popular--I've had several comments on my lightsaber level saying that I should add in force powers for the players, but in my opinion, that would diminish the gameplay, so I'm sticking with doing it my way instead of trying to make it more popular. On the other hand, I received some criticism on the controls that I considered valid so I'm tinkering with them to see if I can improve them, but that has nothing to do with trying to get a better rating: it's because he's right and the controls could use work.


I've still not got my head around the obsession this community has with "fame" and hollow statistics, no good has ever come of it and none ever will. I do feel for those people who can't get more than a handful of plays, because that sucks. But I can't help feeling that those people who want thousands upon thousands just seem to have lost their way somewhere....

Wish I'd said it like that instead of the way I said it. Might've avoided offending people.


Its a legit post, unless this is turning into a freedom free zone. I truly dont see why a mod would come in here just to criticize a desire to be noticed for your hard work by the people who gave you the tools to do it. Dont listen to him try to be picked if you want. You can find whatever enjoyment you want in this game, not just other people approved methods.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. Nobody was deleting his post or telling him that it was inappropriate or anything. I just happened to have an opinion that was critical of the op's position. Criticism is allowed as long as it's handled politely and can be seen as legitimate and constructive. In my opinion, altering an artistic endeavor in the hopes of getting a pink ribbon is a waste... and that attitude is exactly why I'll never work in Hollywood 		2011-02-22 12:23:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188

That's a fair point, but I don't consider hoping "they will be enjoyed en masse" and "Mm pick" to be the same thing. My point wasn't that you shouldn't want your level to do well and be enjoyed by people. My point was that if, while creating your level, you do things a certain way to increase your chance of getting picked rather than because it's the artistic direction/style you wanted to go for, then I would consider that to be having your priorities in the wrong place.

I'm not seriously making a list of anything. Saying things like 'make a good level? thanks I'll try that!' in this thread was to get to the point that it's either luck or predetermined odds, and that I can't do jack to increase the odds. In fact, it settled my frustration, to have it openly acknowledged as a matter of chance & visibility.

I consider the MM pick to be a tool to get plays, like the link in your signature.

On the note of what you're saying, though. I've been pushing & supporting 'what LBP can be' in terms of art since day 1, but in retrospect, sackboy himself was a compromise of artistic vision, and so was a person playing the level & inserting themselves into the digital still life & soulful writing via interaction & onscreen presence. It's a paradox.

I do the 'do I agree, disagree?' thing too. Everyone does. Don't you think that meeting control & gameplay demands is a compromise as well? If you're creating a game, gameplay is part of your art. It is absolutely the notion of creating accessibility. If I was going to make a lightsaber duel, I'd take notes from the PS1 games Bushido Blade, like Lucas took cues from samurai, and make it slow, methodical, strategic, institute one-hit kills etc etc and of course as beautiful and to spec as I can. Then someone would publish one where they wildly wiggle the lightsabre all over the screen without a thought in their head, that looks like it was made by a 2 year old, and that's the one that people would play.

On the boards people would say it's pretty cool but too hard to play or understand etc The only way you could get the time & craft put into the looks and handling seen and appreciated as a 'game'... is to completely dumb it down and make it a button mashing waggle game. If you change this from two extremes to an everyday case of fine tuning, you've allowed your audiences to become collaborators the moment you make contact with them via public release.		2011-02-22 16:27:00

Author:
Unknown User

@ Sehven
I didn't mean to seem like I came down hard on you. I really just thought that the combination of your name being blue and how many young impressionable minds visit this site warrants careful wording of criticism.

BTW the advantage of getting Mm picked is like a mini-Oscar in the LBP world. It does two things I think are valid to desire.

1. It is public acknowledgement for a job very well done.. which leads to...
2. people giving your level a look and maybe looking at your older/unknown levels (you are on the map)

Why is that shameful to desire? I am serious, can anybody answer that for me?		2011-02-22 17:10:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

Why is that shameful to desire? I am serious, can anybody answer that for me?

It's not. People either already have the positive traffic & views they want seeing it as no big deal, aren't that into LBP in this way, or want to look too cool to care. The entire reason this site exists as it is today is because of the level showcase: to get your level more exposure.

If nobody had congregated out of mutual interests, there would be no creator culture in LBP. There would be no envelope pushing & no communal think tank. If anyone had stuck with LBP as a lone 'career' creator inside their own bubble of standards, their evolution would have been much, much, much slower.		2011-02-22 20:05:00

Author:
Unknown User

I think the clubhouse is getting full... and they seem to have posted some guards at the door. (or theyre just volunteers) (this statement was only partially serious)

I have to say though, when i got your friend request the other day i was in create mode with darkseraphim666 and was like "holy ****! ninjamicwz just sent me a friend request!"

edit: i hope my association doesnt damage your reputation 		2011-02-22 21:27:00

Author:
Deftmute
Posts: 730

edit: i hope my association doesnt damage your reputation

lol I kept telling L1GhtMaRe that when we started hanging out. Like "watch, just 'cause I helped with this part, the level's going to get 1 star. Murphy's law"		2011-02-22 22:44:00

Author:
Unknown User

It is absolutely the notion of creating accessibility. If I was going to make a lightsaber duel, I'd take notes from the PS1 games Bushido Blade, like Lucas took cues from samurai, and make it slow, methodical, strategic, institute one-hit kills etc etc and of course as beautiful and to spec as I can. Then someone would publish one where they wildly wiggle the lightsabre all over the screen without a thought in their head, that looks like it was made by a 2 year old, and that's the one that people would play.

There's something to be said for either approach. If the learning curve is too high, most people won't enjoy the gameplay enough to push through long enough to become good. If it's too simplistic then it becomes a matter of luck with no skill involved. The trick is to find a happy medium: keep it simplistic enough to pick up and play but deep enough that practice is rewarding--I've been told by a few people that I achieved that (funny story: a big part of the "skill" aspect comes from something I initially regarded as a bug but could never figure out how to fix). And yes, I suppose that could be seen as a compromise, but in my case at least, making it as playable as possible was part of my vision for the level, not something I compromised on to include the "noobs."


Why is that shameful to desire? I am serious, can anybody answer that for me?

I'm not saying it's wrong to want to be picked. I'm saying that, if picks/fame are your primary motivation for creating, and you're willing to alter your level from what you wanted to create to something more "marketable," then you're likely creating an inferior level to the one you would have created if you weren't worried about it getting picked (it sounded to me, in the op, like that's what Ninja wanted to do, but I guess that wasn't really what he was getting at).

Now, having said all of that, I'll admit to a bit of hypocrisy. I wanted to call my level "Jedi Arts" 'cuz I liked that title, but I ended up going with "Star Wars: Jedi Arts - Lightsaber Duels" because including "Star Wars" and "Lightsaber" in the title made it more likely that people would be intrigued and give it a try (I don't think most people know that "Jedi arts" means their lightsaber fighting style). On the other hand, despite several people clamoring for force powers and a few offers people have given to help me with force powers, I'm standing my ground: I set out to make a lightsaber level, not a "Force Unleashed" level, so even though powers might make it more popular, I'm sticking with my vision for the level.		2011-02-22 23:11:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188

It helps if Mm know you. It helps a lot.2011-02-22 23:17:00

Author:
TehUberZac
Posts: 587

I see the marketing as a game in and of itself. I just started a level I am basing off the really old fable "Belling the Cat" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belling_the_cat). I do want people to try it, more so, I would like the people who could appreciate it to find it. It's not going to be "FREE COSTUMES" So I would probably have to market, right? Level showcase with pics chosen to reach my target demographic, Naming and badge. I am sure many people use it to some extent without compromising their vision at all. It is for me also a video game developer sim... kind of, idk its winter in Michigan and I am bored. PS3, It only does hibernation aid.2011-02-22 23:24:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

I'm not saying it's wrong to want to be picked. I'm saying that, if picks/fame are your primary motivation for creating, and you're willing to alter your level from what you wanted to create to something more "marketable," then you're likely creating an inferior level to the one you would have created if you weren't worried about it getting picked (it sounded to me, in the op, like that's what Ninja wanted to do, but I guess that wasn't really what he was getting at).

I don't think so, that behavior is standard bread in gaming industry and whole art industries that needs sells you there creation, it not like they making because they like to... well they like but ultimate goal is to sell copies and make profit, so everybody will be happy. Do this make games worse? No there successful games out there. Keep in mind that don't need to involve cheap ways to do so, it's about aiming on people likes and needs and plot that in to the design and you don't need to change idea of the level just add a flavor that people like. One of major aspect is quality, people expect that to be good so you try to be good. I don't see that as thing that makes game/level worse, i see that as a creator motivation to create thing that people will call "good level", a motivation to quality

Ofcorse this is very subjective matter, there lot of arty people who will create what they like not looking on others, but there people who like to create for other people, there people in between that like create what they like but with things that people likes or considered standard. I can say the same about first thing if you not thinking about other people likes you most likely make level that can be infarior to what you could do.		2011-02-23 03:27:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

Well I got my Mm Pick via it's unique factor. I made LBP's first & only working Create Popit Sackbot. Mm thought it was a brilliant concept.

I can tell you how not to get Mm picked though. Beta Imports.

I lost my Pick because of that though I do believe they may re-pick it if I re-create the entire thing (which i currently am doing + making it faaaaaar better )		2011-02-23 03:51:00

Author:
Unknown User

I personally don't care so much for an MM pick. I just want people to play my level. I get tired of promoting as much as I can, only to have a lone person play my versus level then frown it. I feel both of my versus levels are good, but I want to make them great. And to do that, I need plays and feedback...2011-03-02 16:01:00

Author:
Jenkins21
Posts: 19

I personally don't care so much for an MM pick. I just want people to play my level. I get tired of promoting as much as I can, only to have a lone person play my versus level then frown it. I feel both of my versus levels are good, but I want to make them great. And to do that, I need plays and feedback...

This is my biggest struggle atm as well. I played LBP1 on and off for two years and never had problems getting plays on my levels. I considered a few thousand plays to be rewarding after spending upwards of 200 hours on some of my projects.

But welcome to LBP2, the land where getting plays on your levels is an outright exercise in futility. I've had 75 plays on my latest project in a week and a half, despite having 100% positive feedback and nearly a 50% heart-to-play ratio. I-pinky-I even left me a nice review that indicated he thought I would win the crown contest that his currently MM-picked retro level is also competing for. What...the....****? Gevurah was nice enough to tweet my level when I sent him a mini rant via PM, but even that didn't bring any noticeable difference to my play rate. So, what's next, I have to send a cheque to MM to get them to promote my stuff? I hear lots of people say the new system works wonderfully to reward creators that put out true quality stuff... but I've yet to see that.

I don't even want to suggest that I'm going to run away and hide...well not yet anyways... but let's just say GT5 was infinitely more rewarding this week 		2011-03-02 22:58:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

the system to get Mm pick is a bit unpolished.

The famous and (above decent) levels get in and the unknown masterful (of wich i have made) do not. Its unfar, especially when the known creators get picked left and right (predudouses) and your sitting there knowing you made somthing JUST as good as they did yet you are unknown

/rant		2011-03-03 06:40:00

Author:
a_mailbox
Posts: 416

the system to get Mm pick is a bit unpolished.

The famous and (above decent) levels get in and the unknown masterful (of wich i have made) do not. Its unfar, especially when the known creators get picked left and right (predudouses) and your sitting there knowing you made somthing JUST as good as they did yet you are unknown

/rant

Ofcorse it's unfair, thing is mmpick should not be Institution controled by some "system" (you guys still belive in one?) but real honest developer pick, or else it can't be called mmpick. Ofcorse they will pick things they been involved in in first place, like level designers creations, ad levels, Prius or H&G

Yestoday i seen guy who was telling that he work in MM and he is reponcible for "rateing levels" and "levels being MMPick". Ofcorse it's a troll, but shows how people image mmpicks as some kind of instituion with system that every single level fit in get mmpick... but it's not.		2011-03-03 10:20:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

Wow, this thread is really therapeutic. Thanks guys

Hope we all get one at some point.

(<3 Thread)


p.s. Also, thanks for the heart/like on my level, Ninja and Shadow Getting that feedback is the most exciting thing that's happened since I posted it. (And I improved the charge attack as you suggested, shadow, though I haven't put the new knights in yet. It was annoying me when I got stuck charging in the wrong direction, too.)


Alex		2011-03-03 10:35:00

Author:
Alic
Posts: 81

I can tell you how not to get Mm picked though. Beta Imports.


This is partly true. A LOT of the current Mm picked levels are just more or less elaborate remakes of previous beta versions, while completely original levels are simply left out in the cold.

I kinda expected the Mm picks to highlight craftsmanship (http://lbp.me/v/xzbrgn), creativity (http://lbp.me/v/x3xff0), innovation (http://lbp.me/v/x6yw9-) and outstanding community spirit (http://lbp.me/v/ye4qhs), and I was looking forward to their implementation in the full game.
A bit over a month in, I have come to the conclusion that they are more like a reflection of random luck and how well Mm know you as a creator in advance...

Pity I say 		2011-03-03 11:36:00

Author:
Slaeden-Bob
Posts: 605

Well maybe it involves random luck but not complete luck, you need to impress developer somehow2011-03-03 11:46:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

I bet that's true, but then I don't understand how they were not impressed by Sehvens Lightsabre Duels level?

The thing is - most people view Mm-picks as "the gold-medal of creation", which is only natural. It's a privillege which seemingly applies to the highest pedigree of creations.

What most people don't realize is that not all creations deserving of a "gold-medal" receives the honor of an Mm-pick. And I think the disconnect between the common (miss)conception and the actual (semi-random) nature of Mm-picks is what might cause grief to some people...		2011-03-03 12:36:00

Author:
Slaeden-Bob
Posts: 605

Wait, this is actually a serious thread? 2011-03-03 12:45:00

Author:
Syroc
Posts: 3193

Wait, this is actually a serious thread?
We havent decided if its real or just put here as "hater bait"		2011-03-03 16:01:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

We havent decided if its real or just put here as "hater bait"

best post EVAR! 		2011-03-03 16:07:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

If you guys want I can nose pickle every level of yours with some snort, I only need a gentle and kind request, though I can't provide any kind of pin, sorry 2011-03-03 16:15:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

If you guys want I can nose pickle every level of yours with some snort, I only need a gentle and kind request, though I can't provide any kind of pin, sorry

This is why i like playlist idea but it need to be implemented in right way to work, it need subscription (hearting) and notification where you can check if there any new levels on them per list. Then community made institues like spotlights, LBPodcast features and i know there some other minor lists in the central could do a playlist with them and they could be easly accessable.		2011-03-03 16:33:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

This is why i like playlist idea but it need to be implemented in right way to work, it need subscription (hearting) and notification where you can check if there any new levels on them per list. Then community made institues like spotlights, LBPodcast features and i know there some other minor lists in the central could do a playlist with them and they could be easly accessable.

Yo Shadow! let me understand, you like the idea of me snorting on your level? I'm kung-fused LOL		2011-03-03 16:37:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

If you guys want I can nose pickle every level of yours with some snort, I only need a gentle and kind request, though I can't provide any kind of pin, sorry

Ewww dude! lol

I'd rather have a gross of guitar picks over that or the pin! Preferably Dunlop Gator's .71mm

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/ehL_s_u3Tspr-U4e629FLrMRXYsqQOqKZnvCGr1Udxot7Sg-dMW8Pe5bsQmpKxJ3pdYyXG2YP8Wq79gjRSCuGj8leDyjLuWNlG HztyunVCw-h7vY78RZ9FkTrIYv_W3yH-KIKo9V46-UVKmQaaA3xPe5zetbczC6KHWQfnZ44PVcH-4hQHiVYtW-A-y-i4U

..as far as the topic goes, I have no idea and still not sure if Mm played or remembers any of my levels. lol		2011-03-03 16:42:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

I never expected miracles from Mm Picks, they can only play so many levels. But IMHO they could hold off picking concept/beta levels until the level is actually complete. I'd rather play the complete level, but by then it might be way down on the Mm Picks list.2011-03-03 16:47:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Wow, this thread is really therapeutic. Thanks guys

Hope we all get one at some point.

(<3 Thread)


p.s. Also, thanks for the heart/like on my level, Ninja and Shadow Getting that feedback is the most exciting thing that's happened since I posted it. (And I improved the charge attack as you suggested, shadow, though I haven't put the new knights in yet. It was annoying me when I got stuck charging in the wrong direction, too.)


Alex

Oh wow, that was your level? It was amazing. An absolute gem. I felt like I was playing games like Popful Mail, Faxanadu, Magic Sword, Trine, Magician Lord, & Ghosts & Goblins all wrapped up in one (not in any derivative way, you know what I mean... just the right kind of genre & style)... everything was so well done, like how you totally reset the enemy scenarios on respawns, and the way they'd bounce in the air. It was the type of thing that made me want to go back and tweak Alucard's hand movements, and realize I could do tons more with the enemies in future use, even though they just 'advance'


Also, I loved the jailer confrontation... it felt like the very beginning of A Link to the Past when you rescue Zelda from the mace-swinging knight, but the side-scrolling made it feel like the escape from jail segment of Chrono Trigger, where you sneak up on knights as you make your way out. All great frames of reference for me as a gamer to remember when I play someone's stuff.

I'm lost in the showcase forum lately so I never know who made what, but great job. It exemplifies everything about a level that should be getting shown off to everyone who boots up LBP2. Please keep your head on tight & keep making stuff like this.		2011-03-03 17:56:00

Author:
Unknown User

You're actually not allowed to get an MmPick unless you receive written permission from Media Molecule.

You must request an application form from them via their website, and then send them the completed application form via mail expressing in great detail why you have not yet recieved an MmPick, along with some personal details, the nature of which will be given on the application form you receive. Also on the form will be a space for a short essay on which single level you'd aspire to have all your current and future levels to be based on, offering sacrafices to the mighty level, and you must also score 100% on the 25 question examination they give you about LittleBigPlanet history.

If your application is successful, Media Molecule forward it to Sony of America, who then must approve it and send it to Sony's HQ in Japan, who must also approve it. This process usually takes around two to three months, and if all is approved, they will send a permission certificate back to Sony of Europe, who will then dispatch it to your given address in 14 working days.

If your application is unsuccessful, you must wait 6 months to submit another if it is to be valid.

If you play an MmPick without previous experience of LBP and without a written and signed permission certificate from all three regional Sony headquarters, you can be fined up to ?5000.


I copied and pasted this from somewhere else and changed the words >.<		2011-03-03 20:59:00

Author:
kirbyman62
Posts: 1893

Oh wow, that was your level? It was amazing. An absolute gem. I felt like I was playing games like Popful Mail, Faxanadu, Magic Sword, Trine, Magician Lord, & Ghosts & Goblins all wrapped up in one (not in any derivative way, you know what I mean... just the right kind of genre & style)... everything was so well done, like how you totally reset the enemy scenarios on respawns, and the way they'd bounce in the air. It was the type of thing that made me want to go back and tweak Alucard's hand movements, and realize I could do tons more with the enemies in future use, even though they just 'advance'


Also, I loved the jailer confrontation... it felt like the very beginning of A Link to the Past when you rescue Zelda from the mace-swinging knight, but the side-scrolling made it feel like the escape from jail segment of Chrono Trigger, where you sneak up on knights as you make your way out. All great frames of reference for me as a gamer to remember when I play someone's stuff.

I'm lost in the showcase forum lately so I never know who made what, but great job. It exemplifies everything about a level that should be getting shown off to everyone who boots up LBP2. Please keep your head on tight & keep making stuff like this.




Thank you for the wonderful words, Ninja. You named many of my most fondly remembered games, just now

I was tempted to recreate Frog's theme for The Knights, but I've decided to compose my own original adventure theme instead. Having some trouble getting enough sounds I like out of the sequencer, though.

I didn't realize you've been working on side-scrolling combat as well. I've just queued your level. Let me know if you want to talk sackbots and sequencers sometime in create mode. I've actually got a level up where I give away a heavily-commented bot with some of the attack animations I've made: A First Tutorial on Sackbot Attacks: Animations (http://lbp.me/v/yc5b34) I'm sure you want to build your logic yourself, but it might be interesting to have as a point of comparison.


Anyway, thanks for responding, and for being open about your own frustrations, which I'm sure many share -- as you said, it's quite cathartic to get a chance just to talk about it with others -- despite whatever teasing may be delivered from the peanut gallery.

Alex		2011-03-03 22:56:00

Author:
Alic
Posts: 81

It seems that you need to create something unique. There is only one LBP2 level that is a platformer, Rogue Panda Rescue, and that platformer is unique because you platform, but you platform with pandas. 2011-03-06 12:16:00

Author:
creator22
Posts: 162

It seems that you need to create something unique. There is only one LBP2 level that is a platformer, Rogue Panda Rescue, and that platformer is unique because you platform, but you platform with pandas.

Nah, simply there was not much great LBP2 enthanged platformer yet like bah'ta. LBP2 is still platformer game.		2011-03-06 15:27:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

Yeah, I was just going to ask that - do you think MM would ever choose a platformer? Jack of Course's level is good - but he basically works with MM now, so level automaticallly gets a look (at the very least). Which is fine, Jack has proven himself many times.

I see a lot of people leaving comments on my new level - saying it should be MM picked. It's a nice sentiment, however, I'm sure they've said that about many levels, so I don't take it to heart (but still nice to hear).

But I realized, MM doesn't seem to be interested in platformers for picks. Mostly top downs, and retro arcade games and movies. Basically, showing what's "new".

Oh well.

Maybe the next one. 		2011-03-06 16:51:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

But I realized, MM doesn't seem to be interested in platformers for picks. Mostly top downs, and retro arcade games and movies. Basically, showing what's "new".

Oh well.

Maybe the next one.

But thats majority of levels? ;] i did great LBP2 Platformers much yet, there only few, looking how they picked on beta it's not like that, bah'ta 2nd part was mmpicked no problem, lockpick for example that was more innovative, didn't have. Nuclerafish Clockworkz is nothing more then enthenged verion of LBP1 level, still got MM Picked. It's not like showing something new Think is they probably don't want to spam mmpicks, to not be just yet another cool pages, but keep the elitness of this list.

And yeah Jack level was only picked because it was ad level, same why steve, grutos and rtm level got picked. They pick everything that they get involve in that one of major rules of this list i think		2011-03-06 18:59:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

To get an MM Pick, hmm.... lets see, AH! I remember! First you must do 43X34 which equals nothing important which makes the bounce in the vinegar, add some salt, mix some pads,3.14 Real eating homes having some awesome taste = Bounce Pads! Simple, isn't it?2011-03-07 01:19:00

Author:
DominationMags
Posts: 1840

I see a lot of people leaving comments on my new level - saying it should be MM picked.

I got a lot of those too. It's flattering, but so far no dice. As much as I say that people shouldn't aspire to get picked, it would be nice. (My point was that you shouldn't tailor your level toward a pick, not that you shouldn't hope a level gets picked).


MM doesn't seem to be interested in platformers for picks.)

I've only played a handful of their picks, but it's true: I can't recall any platformers. I'm not sure it's deliberate: they're probably just more interested in seeing what new gametypes people are coming up with (that whole platform for games thing) so they just aren't trying many platformers.		2011-03-08 07:28:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188

I've only played a handful of their picks, but it's true: I can't recall any platformers. I'm not sure it's deliberate: they're probably just more interested in seeing what new gametypes people are coming up with (that whole platform for games thing) so they just aren't trying many platformers.

Personally I'd say this is because it's much harder to make a platform level that 'wow's' people nowadays. We've all seen and played thousands of them in LBP1, so it's normal that we become less impressed by them as a whole. The new tools allow us to do non platform things that have never been seen before in LBP, so it is only natural that Mm and the community are more interested in those.

There used to be a thread on here about how the bar had been raised so high in LBP1 (so talking primarily about platformers) that in order to make something that truly excites people, you have to put so much time and effort in that it's just not worth of it. I believe this to be related somewhat. I'm sure there are some very solid platformers out there (I haven't personally played any tbh) but do they 'wow' people? Are they new and exciting?

It appears from Mm's picks that they are going for stuff that is innovative and a bit different (I'm actually including things like PacMan and the other remakes in that). They are new to LBP, and they are something that people will look at and say 'hey check that out!'.

You must also realise that the remakes to people like us, the hardcore of the community, are no surprise. We know what the tools are capable of and how 'easy' they are to do. However for the majority of the community this is not the case, when they see a PacMan remake it's 'holy ?$%! check out what you can do!'. Seeing something you recognise being recreated ingame is a great marketing tool.

A friend of mine bought LBP and played the first level, thought it was for kids and sold it, like so many. No matter what I said to him about its potential he was having none of it. It was just the same with LBP2, it was only when I shown him a remake of Micro Machines that he started to understand what the game could do. This is why Mm picks contain a few remakes, because there is something undeniably cool about seeing things being remade in LBP. Sure we want to promote and celebrate creativity but at the end of the day, having fun is having fun, whether it's something you've experienced before or something you're seeing for the first time.

Media Molecule have got closer to the community than any other game developer ever, and it's hard for certain parts of the community to realise that this relationship has to stop somewhere, it is impossible for them to play every level. Mm picks wasn't made for the creators, it was made for the players. It's primary function is to give players cool levels to play, a sweet by-product of that happens to be that creators get some recognition.

Just relax and enjoy the game. If that recognition comes, grab it with both hands and celebrate! If it doesn't, live your life like normal because it means fudge all anyway 		2011-03-08 12:13:00

Author:
jackofcourse
Posts: 1494

Personally I'd say this is because it's much harder to make a platform level that 'wow's' people nowadays. We've all seen and played thousands of them in LBP1, so it's normal that we become less impressed by them as a whole. The new tools allow us to do non platform things that have never been seen before in LBP, so it is only natural that Mm and the community are more interested in those.

There used to be a thread on here about how the bar had been raised so high in LBP1 (so talking primarily about platformers) that in order to make something that truly excites people, you have to put so much time and effort in that it's just not worth of it.

I think my platformer meets all those requirements. I try not to create anything unless I think it will make people sit up and think, "Hey, I haven't seen this before". That's my goal when I create - whether I achieve that effect. . .

But I would never base anything I designed on whether I thought it would impress MM (cause I don't know what that would be anyway).



Just relax and enjoy the game. If that recognition comes, grab it with both hands and celebrate! If it doesn't, live your life like normal because it means fudge all anyway

I'm fine with it either way - actually, to have so many people post that they believe it should be picked, or is MM Pick worthy - to have the community express that on my level, that means just as much, if not more than an actual pick. So, I am quite content at this point.		2011-03-08 19:14:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

Media Molecule have got closer to the community than any other game developer ever, and it's hard for certain parts of the community to realise that this relationship has to stop somewhere, it is impossible for them to play every level. Mm picks wasn't made for the creators, it was made for the players. It's primary function is to give players cool levels to play, a sweet by-product of that happens to be that creators get some recognition.

Didn't they literally ask for level suggestions through twitter? Seems like they were begging for something to show the players. Maybe their lbp.me feed isn't working too well for them because the people they have hearted have terrible taste, or rarely do anything but advertise their own levels and see other creators as competition.

MM Picks, until they created an MM Pick section in-game, was a scarcely updated blog with a scant few followers that impacted and affected only a select few people that comprise the core creator community. If it was ever intended to be anything other than a way to say 'hey, good job' then it was completely missing it's target.

We are a sweet by-product as well.

Dangling carrots in front of a bunch of free work horses will eventually result in some eager-to-please group of people giving 101% and yield the creation of an internet phenomenon that causes a significant sales spike and generates a positive PR chain that a developer couldn't pay to get. They need the creator community to validate the "platform for games" pitch. It'll ensure a few awards at the end of the year, especially if a community phenomenon occurs around august. That's a codependent relationship.


Just relax and enjoy the game

Try to remember back, long ago, when you'd have to lock & key your levels for a day or two to keep them from being trashed by incompetent idiots and utilize your LBW fanbase as much as you could, to ensure the success of your level once unlocked. Try to remember all the trickery and nonsense involved in "getting plays" and wanting to see "5 stars" stay at "5 stars" because it's yours, you know it's worth it, and think it deserves to be on top.		2011-03-08 22:41:00

Author:
Unknown User

Remake a classic video game No I'm just kidding.

Think of MM picks as essentially MM's hearted list (as in my opinion, thats pretty much what it is), so basically something well made that MM really like the look of/find fun (:		2011-03-08 23:17:00

Author:
Matimoo
Posts: 1027

Didn't they literally ask for level suggestions through twitter? Seems like they were begging for something to show the players. Maybe their lbp.me feed isn't working too well for them because the people they have hearted have terrible taste, or rarely do anything but advertise their own levels.

I might be missing something here but I don't see how this is relevant? What's wrong with them asking for suggestions on twitter? Thousands of people follow them so surely it's a good way to get recommendations? It isn't as if this is the only resource they use to find levels, so I don't see it as an issue.

It's been recently stated in an interview that Mark Healy picks up his controller and jumps into random levels from the community at various points throughout the day, and that's one of the ways that they find them.



MM Picks, until they created an MM Pick section in-game, was a scarcely updated blog with a scant few followers that impacted and affected only a select few people that comprise the core creator community. If it was ever intended to be anything other than a way to say 'hey, good job' then it was completely missing it's target.

It was missing it's target, and that's exactly why they moved it to in game. I do believe that it is primarily a 'player feature'. A way to say 'hey, we think this is cool, you should check it out!'. If all they wanted to do was award the creator for their hard work then surely they'd have just used the crown instead?




Try to remember back, long ago, when you'd have to lock & key your levels for a day or two to keep them from being trashed by incompetent idiots and utilize your LBW fanbase as much as you could, to ensure the success of your level once unlocked. Try to remember all the trickery and nonsense involved in "getting plays" and wanting to see "5 stars" stay at "5 stars" because it's yours, you know it's worth it, and think it deserves to be on top.

We all still go through this, and we all want the recognition we deserve. That's totally natural.

Everyone deserves a smiley face when it is obvious they've spent hundreds of hours on the level and what they have produced is something brilliant. However, I don't think everyone 'deserves' an MmPick outright just because their level is awesome.

There are many many levels that could be MmPick'd in terms of quality. It could easily be said that 'if that level was picked, then so should this'. But that's just not how it works. There are too many variables for us to try and rationalise it like that.

Maybe Spaff finished playing the level but was dying for the toilet so rushed off to pee pee, instead of clicking that 'MmPick button'. Maybe Tom doesn't like MmPicking until he's had his dinner and until Spaffs brought his wind up? (This actually happens). Who knows why some levels get played and don't get picked when they are clearly of that quality. My point is simply that I believe MmPicks to be an honour, not a right.

2011-03-08 23:18:00

Author:
jackofcourse
Posts: 1494

My point is simply that MmPicks is an honour, not a right a curse, where you'll receive so much PSN spam, you'll wish you never published.

Just fixed that for you. 		2011-03-08 23:25:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

Just fixed that for you.

That too! 		2011-03-08 23:29:00

Author:
jackofcourse
Posts: 1494

Just fixed that for you.

At least you get to learn how invite is translated in 50 different languages.		2011-03-09 00:14:00

Author:
gevurah22
Posts: 1476

I might be missing something here but I don't see how this is relevant? What's wrong with them asking for suggestions on twitter?

I never said there was anything wrong with it. If they're actively seeking out more good levels to play so they can get more MM Picks and show more people outside the well-connected community what the game has to offer, then they can't seem to find enough, and don't have enough to play. Therefore the 'they can't play everything' statement people keep regurgitating on these boards is moot and needs to be put to rest as the empty gesture it is.

My statement on MM asking for levels to play, and your statement on how much they can play is the relevant correlation.


If all they wanted to do was award the creator for their hard work then surely they'd have just used the crown instead?

Crowns don't get you any visibility or reward quality creation with a quality reception. It's like somebody throwing you a life preserver on a sinking boat, while a crown is like throwing them an oar.


There are many many levels that could be MmPick'd in terms of quality. It could easily be said that 'if that level was picked, then so should this'. But that's just not how it works.

Saying every MM Pick quality of level (http://lbp.me/v/yhz2-0) doesn't deserve an MM Pick would be like me saying "I can't give every 5 star level I play 5 stars" - sure, maybe I forgot to, maybe I clicked too fast, maybe I was in a hurry. It doesn't mean I shouldn't have rated it, it just means I didn't. It also doesn't mean something shouldn't be seen if it wasn't already seen.

Players and plays aren't a finite resource we have to drill a hole in the ground to acquire in a capitalist sense.

If MM is indeed actively seeking out community content to whet player appetites with on a regular basis, and routinely demonstrate what LBP2 can do, then what's the point of taking suggestions if a suggestion leads to a wonderful level that can engage and wow players (http://lbp.me/v/xn0p5j), and they don't bother to follow through?

Why also rely only on suggestions from the same handful of confidants if it's not providing them the amount of content they want?

..but i agree with forgetting about it and & trying to enjoy the game. Might as well accept that if you publish something once and walk away, it's probably going to get 3 or 4 plays, and that's that.		2011-03-09 00:29:00

Author:
Unknown User

At least you get to learn how invite is translated in 50 different languages.

Hehe, yeah - I just wrote - "No Hablo Spanish" to someone. . . for everyone else, I was at a disadvantage.

I'm surprised MM made giving people to option to send you an invite as the default - with no option to turn off.

I don't know why people do that - I'd imagine once they say, "I played your level and really liked it" - the ackwardness sets in pretty quick.

So, while I suppose it's nice - can't imagine accepting.		2011-03-09 01:45:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

Just fixed that for you.

And my personal favorite: five comments in a row by the same guy asking everybody to play his level. I've got more deleted comments (I delete filthy filthy ads) on my level than I have non-deleted ones

And while we're on the subject, be sure to play my level: ..... ack! Stop hitting me!! /runs		2011-03-09 01:45:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188

And my personal favorite: five comments in a row by the same guy asking everybody to play his level. I've got more deleted comments (I delete filthy filthy ads) on my level than I have non-deleted ones

And while we're on the subject, be sure to play my level: ..... ack! Stop hitting me!! /runs

I'll make sure I send 10 invites your way.		2011-03-09 02:09:00

Author:
gevurah22
Posts: 1476

Hey Ninja, I think you raise some valid points. I think the main problem comes from people being confused on what the MM Picks are. Most of us assumed they were picking the "Best of the Best", then I think we figured it was to show off the new tools. . . then maybe. . . well, I'm not really sure any more.

In the end, doesn't really matter I guess. I just create and hope the community likes it. I've never chased the Crown (entered any contests) - and I don't see myself being someone to chase an MM Pick. I'll gladly accept either , but I'm not going change how I create - or worry that my levels aren't the best that I could make them because MM didn't officially recognize them.

What ever will be, will be - whatever tickles their fancy is fine with me. I create for me and hope people enjoy what I do (like playing music). The only thing I really want most from MM is to continue to support me with new tools and updates to any bugs.

Do that, and I'll be a happy creator.

That's my 2 cents anyway.		2011-03-09 02:30:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

And my personal favorite: five comments in a row by the same guy asking everybody to play his level. I've got more deleted comments (I delete filthy filthy ads) on my level than I have non-deleted ones

And while we're on the subject, be sure to play my level: ..... ack! Stop hitting me!! /runs

What I hate worse than ads, are those people who take close up pics of their faces and post it - and not just 1, but 5 of them! It has nothing to do with your level.

If I post a pic, it's to show the creator or other players something I thought was great about the creator's level.

At least we can delete pics now.		2011-03-09 02:33:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

people who take close up pics of their faces and post it - and not just 1, but 5 of them!
At least we can delete pics now.

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that. The ads always bugged me more, though: all you have to do is take a few pics of your own and those will be the first ones anybody sees, so the pics don't bother me too much, but when people put ads in your comment section, they're right there at the top. I'm kind of selfish: my level isn't a place to advertise your levels; it's about me. Me me me me me me ME ME ME ME!!

Being able to delete pics is nice, though.


I've never chased the Crown (entered any contests) - and I don't see myself being someone to chase an MM Pick. I'll gladly accept either , but I'm not going change how I create

Same here. Mostly I'm too lazy to go after a crown and I always want to build my own thing, not what some contest rules tell me to, and if I had a crown, I would show it off for a day or so and then it would gather dust. I wouldn't tailor a level toward a pick, but getting one would be nice and... this may sound arrogant, but I'm actually kinda' surprised I haven't gotten one for my lightsaber level. It was crazy popular the first week--it even managed to displace Hansel and Gretelbot from the top of Cool Pages, Busiest, and Trending right after they released it (which actually made me feel bad considering how much more work they'd put into it than I put into my level)--and it's still getting 100+ new plays a day two and a half weeks later, but it doesn't look like anybody from Mm have played it (I checked Spaff's and Tom's recent activity--dunno what other psn's are Mm ppl).		2011-03-09 02:59:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188

I'm pretty sure getting Mm picked has something to do with "high fiving" someone from Mm or something stupid like that.

I can tell you one thing for sure... it has nothing to do with picking the best, most innovative, or most popular levels out there. Personally, I'm starting to think it has something to do with a blindfold and a dart board.		2011-03-09 03:00:00

Author:
Rustbukkit
Posts: 1737

Hey Ninja, I think you raise some valid points. I think the main problem comes from people being confused on what the MM Picks are. Most of us assumed they were picking the "Best of the Best", then I think we figured it was to show off the new tools. . . then maybe. . . well, I'm not really sure any more.

People are only confused because it's pitched as "Best of the Best" and esteemed as a sign of quality when it's really an impulse, an off the wall chance, an automated obligation related to current and long term advertising goals, or the results of being well connected. We share innocuously and assume any reciprocation is the same.

It's used as a way to entice people to go above and beyond, with the stars in their eyes, thinking the sky is the limit because, for MM, a few excellent levels will look great in a video montage that disguises the vast sea of H4H (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11BEHwmOxZg)... while a few viral youtube phenomenons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNPBdKQBYHg) will make LBP2 seem like it lived up to the hype of being the "platform for games" that LBP1 never was, causing occasional spikes in sales, and keeping LBP2 relevant in gaming media well after it's release. That's what the MM pick is now - grooming and conditioning for long term sales. Other than that, everything published is trivial.

Why do you think they keep letting people think they're going to hire someone again? It makes people go and start trying to 		2011-03-09 03:17:00

Author:
Unknown User

I'm pretty sure getting Mm picked has something to do with "high fiving" someone from Mm or something stupid like that.

I can tell you one thing for sure... it has nothing to do with picking the best, most innovative, or most popular levels out there. Personally, I'm starting to think it has something to do with a blindfold and a dart board.

Yeah. That makes me feel great for getting a level picked. Makes me feel like my work is worthless. I was just the lucky guy that got hit with a dart.		2011-03-09 13:15:00

Author:
smasher
Posts: 641

Your pinball table was sick, smasher, and took that genre in the step it needed to go on LBP2. It deserves hundreds of thousands of plays, and any endorsement or recognition that gets it there... know why? 'cause I'm down with the idea of people gettin' plays for quality levels. Crazy, I know.2011-03-09 14:01:00

Author:
Unknown User

Your pinball table was sick, smasher, and took that genre in the step it needed to go on LBP2. It deserves hundreds of thousands of plays, and any endorsement or recognition that gets it there... know why? 'cause I'm down with the idea of people gettin' plays for quality levels. Crazy, I know.

Thanks man. I wasn't talking about you though. I understand what your trying to say with this thread, as we have talked about it outside of this thread. I just can't shake the feeling that there's some animosity going around about MM picks.		2011-03-09 14:08:00

Author:
smasher
Posts: 641

Yeah. That makes me feel great for getting a level picked. Makes me feel like my work is worthless. I was just the lucky guy that got hit with a dart.

That my opinion makes you feel bad about getting Mm picked matters not to me. You decided to take it personally, so that's your issue. I don't recall mentioning any specific levels in my previous post, but perhaps you were one of the ones who got hit with a lucky throw. There's also the possibility that there is a secret alien base on the dark side of the moon.... or that Perez Hilton is actually straight and he's "pulled one over" on the entire world.

My point is simply that I've seen far too many amazing levels (possibly more amazing than whatever level you got picked for) go unrecognized by Mm. In mine (and many many other players) opinion, the Mm picks are as random and undeserving as they can be at times. I don't know who's doing the "picking" over there, but their criteria seems a bit wonky to me. I mean, there's even one creator who admitted that even he thought his level was terrible that got Mm picked... so I think that says a lot right there. I have to admit that I never played his level... but I think it might be more than a case of low self esteem on his part, I dunno?		2011-03-09 14:12:00

Author:
Rustbukkit
Posts: 1737

I know you weren't talkin' about me. I just wanted to make sure you knew your level deserved it's spot. If you had 50 plays and no pick, I'd be using it as yet another example of fail. I think your level is a prime example of "if that got picked, and this is just as good or better, then this should be picked too" in action and miraculously working because nobody passed out from exhaustion to put a ribbon on it, and the prior pick didn't lose anything by sharing it's personal space.

I know both'a you guys, and we're all on the same page... trust me. It's just a misunderstanding. Forget about it.		2011-03-09 14:31:00

Author:
Unknown User

That my opinion makes you feel bad about getting Mm picked matters not to me. You decided to take it personally, so that's your issue. I don't recall mentioning any specific levels in my previous post, but perhaps you were one of the ones who got hit with a lucky throw. There's also the possibility that there is a secret alien base on the dark side of the moon.... or that Perez Hilton is actually straight and he's "pulled one over" on the entire world.

My point is simply that I've seen far too many amazing levels (possibly more amazing than whatever level you got picked for) go unrecognized by Mm. In mine (and many many other players) opinion, the Mm picks are as random and undeserving as they can be at times. I don't know who's doing the "picking" over there, but their criteria seems a bit wonky to me. I mean, there's even one creator who admitted that even he thought his level was terrible that got Mm picked... so I think that says a lot right there. I have to admit that I never played his level... but I think it might be more than a case of low self esteem on his part, I dunno?

I don't really know you Rustbukkit, but water under the bridge.

I was just sayin.		2011-03-09 14:49:00

Author:
smasher
Posts: 641

It's all an illusion. It's all in your mind, you're imagining this comment and you are imagining the whole world, we are all just inside your mind.

How do you know if this is real? Exactly, therefore being MM picked, although prestigious, a not so big deal when compared to the wonders of the universe.

Why? I have been studying Philosophy, and it's making me depressed 		2011-03-09 15:09:00

Author:
AgentBanana
Posts: 511

I think your level is a prime example of "if that got picked, and this is just as good or better, then this should be picked too" in action and miraculously working because nobody passed out from exhaustion to put a ribbon on it, and the prior pick didn't lose anything by sharing it's personal space.

This is what the system needs more of. The animosity that's floating around is generally because this doesn't happen nearly often enough. And when it doesn't happen to us, we come back with bigger dartboards and maybe then it works, or maybe not, and the cycle repeats itself and the negative attitudes grow.

As much as I wish that MM picks were ribbons tied onto the best levels, I think this is a delusional way of thinking. Perhaps that's what we all want them to be, but as has been said already, it's a random selection MM figures they can push to sell games and retain their player base. It's not fair, but that's no different than any other part of life.		2011-03-09 17:44:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

I wish MM Picks were updated more often; I'd like to see at least one new MM Pick du-jour (and yet in-game it always reports having something new?). I'm very lazy about looking for good levels since I usually just play stuff to take a little break from creating. I like having a list available where someone else has already culled the herd. Being able to queue stuff up using LBP.me is fantastic...but wouldn't it be cool if there was an LBPCentral Picks for the spotlighted levels, etc.? I think we just need more level lists and shouldn't expect so much from one. Maybe you could subscribe to a list source using LBP.me and then these would show up as categories in game independent of your queue.2011-03-09 18:26:00

Author:
fullofwin
Posts: 1214

Perhaps that's what we all want them to be

I'd say a good chunk of people do, but on both sides you've got people with a "my preciousssss... they wants it" subroutine that are scared they'll lose something, or think that to get their own they have to take someone else's.

I'm sure if I said all spotlight levels should have been MM picks for the last 2 years, or added retroactively when the Pick section was added to LBP1 in it's last few months... you know, something you'd think we could all agree on... that somebody would come in from our own community saying why they shouldn't be, when the bottom line is that excellent levels by excellent creators that I supposedly support as peers, would get more plays, which gives players more quality to play, and can be seen in a positive light in so many ways. I literally can't comprehend how detached someone would have to be to where they wouldn't want that, for themselves and every other excellent creator, and want to keep the ribbon they got feeling like it's a crown when it's the only guaranteed way to get sustained plays. Everyone I kick it with isn't like that, no matter what DLC they have or how many plays they got.		2011-03-09 20:06:00

Author:
Unknown User

I don't really know you Rustbukkit, but water under the bridge.

I was just sayin.

I'm a little bit leary of bridges... don't you know they harbour trolls? Plus, I have vertigo and am afraid of heights (widths too, actually). However, I'll agree to a "virtual high five" if you're up for one of those.

I certainly meant no disrespect to you or anyone else who have been fortunate (or unfortunate - depending on how much spam they recieve as a result) enough to have been Mm picked. I think that for the most part, Mm picks have been very deserving. My main beef with them is that not only are other fine quality levels being overlooked as I stated earlier, but that as other members have already mentioned... that they simply aren't "picking" anything very often at all these days. I mean, heck... the game is barely a few months old and it seems that Mm Picks are starting to go the same way their LBP News section went way back when LBP first hit.

I know Mm are really busy doing their thing trying to make more money while still trying to find time to fix bugs in between... but it just seems to me that no one there is even playing or picking anything anymore. I'm sure many Mm employee's don't want to spend thier lunch hours playing levels after working on game content all day, but you'd think someone would be able to play 3 levels a day and find something decent to share with their coworkers to suggest. I really don't know the solution, but I do know that Mm Picks appears to be borked right now and that it seems as though it's going the way of the Dodo to some of us. It's frustrating to see it updated once a week with only 2 new levels, when I know full well I've played at least 5 levels that are deserving (and I really don't play very much at all compared to my create time).

To the point made about their choice of level types in regard to picking less "platforming" levels as opposed to "new game styles" that illustrate what else can be done... that would be very sad if it's true (which I suspect it might be). I mean, sure the bar is constantly getting raised and new genres are being introduced into the coummunity levels all the time... but that doesn't mean they should loose sight of all the other really great (but not stellar) levels people are creating. I think the risk Mm Picks now runs, is of great quality levels getting left behind and unacknowledged when compared to the really amazing levels. In my mind... Mm Picks shouldn't just be about picking the cream of the crop only... but also about picking really well made, solid, good looking, fun, levels.

I've seen a few levels now that have much higher plays/ratings/etc. than a lot of Mm Pick levels, that are simply amazing fun to play. I wonder how Mm are missing these, or if it's possible that they are intentionally overlooking them for some reason. Is it because they are already popular on Cool Pages, so Mm don't feel the need to "help them along and get them seen by the community"? I sure hope not, because we all know that Cool Pages is also borked... and that your level will also only have a very short life span there.

In the end, I personally don't really care if any of my levels get Mm picked once I publish (though it would be nice to get recognition from the creators of this wonderful little game of ours). What matters to me is plays, and not because I want to be popular. I want plays simply to know that I was able to put a smile on someone's face when they play my level. I want plays to know that someone looked at the results of my hard work and creativity, and muttered under their breath aloud "Woah... how the heck did this guy come up with that cool design?". I want plays to know that one of my creations sparked an idea and inspired someone else out there to sit down and put the time into creating something they think is awesome, so that they in turn will one day want to get plays on their levels too... and for the same reasons.

I still hit Mm Picks everytime I boot up my machine, and I still keep hoping that there will be more awesome levels than there were the day before. Sadly, I'm still disappointed almost every time.

To those who have Mm Picks under their belts... congrats! To those hopefulls who aspire to one day be Mm Picked... good luck. To those of you who don't care... keep creating and play on! 		2011-03-09 20:48:00

Author:
Rustbukkit
Posts: 1737

In the end, I personally don't really care if any of my levels get Mm picked once I publish (though it would be nice to get recognition from the creators of this wonderful little game of ours).

Tom_Molecule actually played my level that currently has under 1000 plays. I was pretty surprised and feel very lucky; don't know how he stumbled across it in the sea of levels being published. I got a heart and a smiley, that meant a lot because he works for MM and has probably seen a lot of platformers. I don't care very much about having a high play count, if a few people play my levels and appreciate them, that's good enough for me...I'm actually very happy with LBP2 compared to LBP1.


I still hit Mm Picks everytime I boot up my machine, and I still keep hoping that there will be more awesome levels than there were the day before. Sadly, I'm still disappointed almost every time.

Same here! 		2011-03-09 21:17:00

Author:
fullofwin
Posts: 1214

In the end, I personally don't really care if any of my levels get Mm picked once I publish (though it would be nice to get recognition from the creators of this wonderful little game of ours). What matters to me is plays, and not because I want to be popular. I want plays simply to know that I was able to put a smile on someone's face when they play my level. I want plays to know that someone looked at the results of my hard work and creativity, and muttered under their breath aloud "Woah... how the heck did this guy come up with that cool design?". I want plays to know that one of my creations sparked an idea and inspired someone else out there to sit down and put the time into creating something they think is awesome, so that they in turn will one day want to get plays on their levels too... and for the same reasons.

That's exactly how I've always felt. And, just like the rest of the people around here I've invested countless hours into this game trying to make something people will enjoy, so it's nice to finally get some plays. I can say that I couldn't care less if I ever get another pick though. Having one gets a person all the exposure they'll ever need, and I think MM should pick more. What is there, almost 4,000,000 levels? There's about 120 MM picks? You do the math, but I think they could afford to give out LOTS more. The best of luck to everyone!!		2011-03-09 21:57:00

Author:
smasher
Posts: 641

Your pinball table was sick, smasher, and took that genre in the step it needed to go on LBP2. It deserves hundreds of thousands of plays, and any endorsement or recognition that gets it there... know why? 'cause I'm down with the idea of people gettin' plays for quality levels. Crazy, I know.

You're down with the idea of people getting plays for quality levels in practice. MM is down with the idea of people getting plays for quality levels in theory.

I think everyone's disappointment in not being appreciated for their hard work and creativity boils down to the very-easy-to-fall-into misconception (which I'm prone to fall into from time to time myself) that MM has ever taken the promotion of quality all that seriously. If that were so, why would they have designed H4H into the system, as their development team has more or less admitted?

It's not about quality, or at least not primarily about quality. That's the first hard fact we non-casual creators have to come to terms with.		2011-03-10 01:31:00

Author:
zabel99
Posts: 179

Just two words: A Good Level.

Darn, it's actually three words... D:

It's actually 4 words: Make a Good level

but Morgana25's levels are good and they don't get picked

and wolverine_2008's levels are good and they don't get picked either! jk 		2011-03-10 02:37:00

Author:
wolverine_2008
Posts: 304

perhaps you were one of the ones who got hit with a lucky throw.

He got picked for "Monster Pinball 2." He did the first Monster Pinball in lbp and it was, imho, the best pinball level around, and MP2 is the best I've seen in lbp2. If you like pinball at all (I love it even though I suck at it) it's definitely worth playing.


the Mm picks are as random and undeserving as they can be at times.

Perhaps. The ones I've played have almost all been really good levels. I think it simply comes down to a couple of factors: only levels that a Mm employee happens to play can be picked so the field is already pretty well narrowed down right there and plenty of good levels are going to get missed *cough*Jedi Arts*cough* (http://lbp.me/v/xzbrgn) and the other factor is human nature. What one person finds amazing, another may see as "meh." Some of them (dunno' how many Mm employees do picks) may be impressed by complicated logic or effects even though the level isn't particularly fun; some may be impressed by artwork; some by fun gameplay; etc. It seems that a good chunk of picks are for levels that show what the game can do in the "platform for games" department: all those mini-games and remakes of classic games.

I don't think it's worth being bitter over. It is what it is and there's nothing we can do... unless any of you are on speaking terms with Tom or Spaff and you'd care to plug my level. There'd be a Benjamin in it for you*

*by that, I mean I'll dress a sackbot up as Benjamin Franklin and give him to you 		2011-03-10 04:43:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188

Having one gets a person all the exposure they'll ever need, and I think MM should pick more. What is there, almost 4,000,000 levels? There's about 120 MM picks? You do the math, but I think they could afford to give out LOTS more. The best of luck to everyone!!

Yeah, at this point - with so few picked, I'm getting a bit worried this is going to turn into the "Cool News section" that had the survival levels news up for over a year. Or the "play, share, create" stats . . . that slowly were swept away without a word.

Hope this gets more use - or worse, become a dead link. 		2011-03-13 00:46:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

What one person finds amazing, another may see as "meh." Some of them (dunno' how many Mm employees do picks) may be impressed by complicated logic or effects even though the level isn't particularly fun; some may be impressed by artwork; some by fun gameplay; etc. It seems that a good chunk of picks are for levels that show what the game can do in the "platform for games" department: all those mini-games and remakes of classic games.

Complicated logic definitely doesn't sell a level to Mm. I don't think they really have much in terms of judging criteria other than "looks good and is fun" while keeping with their "platform for games" mandate. I still see some platformers making it on the list, but as of late, they don't seem to be adding many new things.


Yeah, at this point - with so few picked, I'm getting a bit worried this is going to turn into the "Cool News section" that had the survival levels news up for over a year. Or the "play, share, create" stats . . . that slowly were swept away without a word.

They should be adding a few new picks every week IMO		2011-03-13 16:12:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

Perhaps the reason there haven't been recent MM Picks is because they are about to announce the BIG DLC Announcement! !2011-03-13 16:34:00

Author:
DominationMags
Posts: 1840

spaff was on vacation last I read, in some 'found: art' thread linked from their blog2011-03-13 16:42:00

Author:
Unknown User

If the day comes that i see an rpg on Mm picks that isn't as good or as stable as mine is, then i will complain at the top of my lungs.
Something like that happened to me already, but now that i've had a head start, i will be POed up the foot about it.
2011-03-13 22:09:00

Author:
a_mailbox
Posts: 416

Well I had twitter to apply for some other jobs in the past, and when I read the post about MM twitter and I had not gotten any plays on my levels I sent them a tweet. No one ever played the level, so I am sure they are swamped by them, and they are also just doing it for advertising. I would love to get an MM, but I would have also loved to have been spotlighted for one of my levels I spent months and months on, but it would have been even nicer to have gotten feedback when I was trying F4F and not forced to look for feedback by hitting up reviewers and tweets.2011-03-13 23:17:00

Author:
celsus
Posts: 822

spaff was on vacation last I read, in some 'found: art' thread linked from their blog

Well, of course he was - that was when my level was on the Cool Pages.

Haha, oh well. I think the chances of winning the lottery are about the same. . . if not a bit better. (Unless they know you already, of course).

Like the crown, this is just something I would never have the energy to chase. I'm too busy building things I enjoy to wonder what others will think. The most I can hope for is that others will have as much fun playing my level as I did building it.		2011-03-14 01:47:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

Like the crown, this is just something I would never have the energy to chase. I'm too busy building things I enjoy to wonder what others will think. The most I can hope for is that others will have as much fun playing my level as I did building it.

I think crown is 100x easier to get then mmpick, not to mention is a code that can be give to someone		2011-03-15 16:36:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

I think crown is 100x easier to get then mmpick

For me at least, getting a crown would actually be more difficult. You can get picked for making a level however you want as long as it's good enough, innovative enough, and somebody from Mm actually notices it, but most of the time crowns are for competitions where you build something according to criteria set by somebody else. I'm not so good at coloring inside somebody else's lines: I do my best work when it's something I want to do for me, not for others. Fortunately, I don't care much about the crown: it wouldn't fit any costumes I'd want to make. The Bug Blaster, on the other hand, would be nice and useful for making custom costumes (Psycho Mantis), so if I saw an opportunity to go after one of those, I'd jump at it (like maybe if there had been more than one BCC for US beta testers).		2011-03-15 17:23:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188

Every time I see this thread popping up in the main page of the forum, I can't help but laugh.
Whatever it is needed...it's at least 75% luck.
No need to pursue the MM pick all the life...even because not all the MM picks are good stuff.
Putting a pin for wearing the crown and another for the MM pick (Elitist stuff) is another fault MM guys made.
In 90% of the cases this greed need of completition makes people try to gamble or search shortcuts (like this thread clearly demonstrates), instead of just trying to work on something.		2011-03-15 17:36:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

This thread has hosted quite a lot of legit conversation, Why is everyone still treating it as if its trying to steal their cereal?

This is seriously the last time I will reiterate this.

1. Game developers want to succeed, they want their vision to reach as many people as it can.

2. We are game developers (regardless of our skill or aptitude, or the fact we don't get paid in money)

3. Conversing with other developers as a means to achieve #1 might help increase aptitude

4. Mm pick guaranties your vision will reach a substantial amount of people.		2011-03-15 18:11:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

In 90% of the cases this greed need of completition makes people try to gamble or search shortcuts (like this thread clearly demonstrates), instead of just trying to work on something.

There was no answer to the question and there is no formula for success... but if anybody's ever fed up with trying to do your best on your creations in this game, and doesn't know what the problem is, they can find out what the problem is in here somewhere. Everyone I know in-game and on the boards has these same frustrations over something, and I know I'm not the only one. Welcome to Vegas: The house always wins.

I honestly am just demoralized. I'll work on something for a day now, and never go any further with it. So I've been trying to answer questions in the help forum, or mess around and help friends with whatever they're making. Other than that, I'm pretty much done with giving 110% for now - time to try and play something else, and enjoy the nice weather that's on it's way.		2011-03-15 18:11:00

Author:
Unknown User

There was no answer to the question and there is no formula for success... but if anybody's ever fed up with trying to do your best on your creations in this game, and doesn't know what the problem is, they can find out what the problem is in here somewhere. Everyone I know in-game and on the boards has these same frustrations over something, and I know I'm not the only one. Welcome to Vegas: The house always wins.

Yeah.. I know what you mean. I keep on plugging away regardless. What I create at least always makes me smile that I have accomplished something cool. If no one understands it, too bad. Maybe they will get it someday.

...and ya never know, I've heard "Even the losers, get lucky sometimes". lol		2011-03-15 18:19:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

Off topic but Ninja mentioning weather made me think about the squirrel bungee I will get to set up outside soon. 2011-03-15 18:21:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

@ squirrel bungee


The Bug Blaster, on the other hand, would be nice and useful for making custom costumes (Psycho Mantis)

http://i7.lbp.me/img/ft/c473f7d84c9708a488d5d1ee1bee765d2045f7e7.jpg		2011-03-15 18:38:00

Author:
Unknown User

Always wise words from the people I expect to be wise.
The only point I make is that the game doesn't need this stuff, and I see that it's bad that great creators get their morale down.
This is not good in my view.
I never pointed to make something for the MM pick or for the crown...I just want to make something that is fun, but this race to the hardest and most impressive thing is slowly erasing the concept of fun.
I don't feel a dev at all, as EinRobot said, I just feel as a guy that gives some of its free time to build something that hopefully his friends and other people will enjoy for 5-10 minutes...I think we all should get back to the roots, but that's just my dreamer's idea.		2011-03-15 19:09:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

yeah if it comes to a point where people are getting all about it, it is time to step back.2011-03-15 19:20:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

You know...I actually missed the first days of LBP since I didn't have a connection at home...but I followed the game here.
The game had small but significant steps, and though the calculator was one of the first thing, the people here try to NATURALLY evolve the game.
With good stories, with good puzzles, enhancing visuals, learning how to be "thermo efficient", learning to build logics, creating fun levels, and most of all helping each other.
And the game grew big step by step.
Now it's all about "a race to the amaze factor", and people got spoiled, a lot spoiled, and things are way to easy to do...so people is really out of focus.
Maybe it's my romatic side, but I miss those days.
I miss watching the view from Ninja's False Idol n?3, I miss the puzzles of Aperture Science, I miss the crazy paths and backtracking of From Siberia, all the puns and jokes in the game, I miss a great amount of things, that were simple (or just SEEMED simple because the creators were so good to hide the complexity) and natural...they were a piece of the heart of the creator.
I SOOOOO miss LBP1 and it's sheer brutal simplicity.
I'm on the point were I prefer the bomb survivals to all these clunky sackbot prototypes that spawn everyday.
We have too much...and having a lot of power, without the heart to use it well it's not good.
LBP2 has too much brain and muscles and really little heart 		2011-03-15 19:38:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

You've kinda contradicted yourself Omega...and I don't see that things have changed much with the community. There has always been the race to amaze crowd, look at the glitched materials and annoying extra layer glitch, etc. LBP is still a slow evolution...MM just gave us a big evolutionary leap with all the new tools.

It's not surprising that there are a lot of clunky sack-bot and arcade levels now (also a few amazing ones). People are trying out the new stuff you can hardly blame them...eventually best practices will be figured out and there will be fewer clunky levels of these types.

I assume there will also still be folks like myself that think platformers is what LBP does best and will continue the thankless task of creating them. These too can evolve to be more fun with the new powerups and easier to use logic, etc.

It's all good. 		2011-03-15 19:57:00

Author:
fullofwin
Posts: 1214

With good stories, with good puzzles, enhancing visuals, learning how to be "thermo efficient", learning to build logics, creating fun levels, and most of all helping each other

Please give me example of absents of at least one thing in this list, try at least one. People bashing levels that have bad story (specially movie levels that are not based on randomness) , they saying that too easy or too hard (puzzles), why the hell Bah'ta got even noticed and use in majority of LBP2 trailers (enhancing visuals) i don't think it's just a sackbots (specially in first one), tell me why my beta Tetris overheat a lot and my full game dont (thermo efficient), why people still making ton of tutorials about logic, why people saying that level is fun or not, why the hell people non stop inviteing me to help them do logic and guess what, it's hard to me to not accept it since i like to help people. Why they even need my help if logic is so easy, why DaSackboy said to me that his head exploded when i was working on quite standard menu logic that i didn't even sweat on, but i swat on other things since LBP2 logic is not bottom-less hole of wonders, even 10 year old game editors gives more possibilities. Tell me at least one thing that that you told and it's not in LBP2


The game had small but significant steps, and though the calculator was one of the first thing, the people here try to NATURALLY evolve the game.

Then why the hell i still hear word "walkaround"?

This thread didn't come from pure greedness, but fact that there mmpicks and there levels that are not mmpick but they are in same or better quality, but still are not picked and sometimes it's not even played. So this obviesly will born question what the hell this happening that better levels are not picked and reworded for the hard work or at least to be seen, keeping in mind that this is free work that no body pay for you. Where creativity there compatision, and all real world industries are no different, it's all about rates and reviews.

As tech demos (of sackbots for example), thats natural when there evolution of logic which requires solutions for specific tasks, in need to be demoed. this is not different from real software development, if there solution in software a demo is being made to show people how it works.

I tell you you gonna say exact same thing in LBP3, since iknow LBP2 have lot of things that can be added to increase possibilities that they will be added LBP2 will look like LBP1 right now.		2011-03-15 21:05:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

How can I explain?
It's something about the feeling, and the pace at which things proceed.
In LBP no one had the need to rush things and publish them ahead of time because there wasn't any kind of recognization if not from the community itself.
And before your level got noticed you had to work sooooooooo hard to gain visibility, while now some lucky tests got picked.
I rememer even in some old spotlights here that some levels weren't spotlighted because not everything was flawless and perfect.
Now I see much less people put the same care in their levels.
Obviously I'm not speaking aout the well known creators, but as the general trend.
Maybe it's just me that feels that the wind has changed, but as I said I feel that MM is too way intrusive this time and it's someway hurting the natural evolution of the game, because, again, people generally works more on what MM expect them to work on instead of working for themselves or for the community.
There are exceptions, fortunately, but it's not the main trend.		2011-03-15 22:24:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

I know what you guys are saying, but I know what Omega means. I think he's yearning less for a bulletpoint of lost level criteria, and more for the days when none of us really cared, trying hard was fun, and nobody who put in work was struggling to get a foothold or outdo everyone on the planet just to get more than 50 plays. If you've had a hit in the upper thousands recently, it might seem like business as usual... quite alot of people who'd say otherwise though.

Maybe the problem's just been that LBPC is so flooded with levels too, that there's literally NO supportive infrastructure anymore. Used to be, if you put in a hundred hours or something, and it showed 'cause you were good, there'd be ten people browsing who'd get your level going at 5 stars for the first 100 plays... and you might not hit page 1, but you'd start out on page 6 and move up til your seven days were up, depending on how much trashing it got on the servers.

I know back then there'd always be at least one person on the site, who'd go ahead and give you 4 stars 'cause they were teh uber critic and make sure you can't get on page 1 and act like they don't know that's what their rating is costing someone, but 20 people vs 1 oddball was better than 0 vs 0. The centrifugal core of great creators here is spinning too fast to take on a solid state, and most of the original core has spun off into the stars where nothing matters.		2011-03-15 22:37:00

Author:
Unknown User

I know what you guys are saying, but I know what Omega means. I think he's yearning less for a bulletpoint of lost level criteria, and more for the days when none of us really cared, trying hard was fun, and nobody who put in work was struggling to get a foothold or outdo everyone on the planet just to get more than 50 plays. If you've had a hit in the upper thousands recently, it might seem like business as usual... quite alot of people who'd say otherwise though.

Maybe the problem's just been that LBPC is so flooded with levels too, that there's literally NO supportive infrastructure anymore. Used to be, if you put in a hundred hours or something, and it showed 'cause you were good, there'd be ten people browsing who'd get your level going at 5 stars for the first 100 plays... and you might not hit page 1, but you'd start out on page 6 and move up til your seven days were up, depending on how much trashing it got on the servers.

I know back then there'd always be at least one person on the site, who'd go ahead and give you 4 stars 'cause they were teh uber critic and make sure you can't get on page 1 and act like they don't know that's what their rating is costing someone, but 20 people vs 1 oddball was better than 0 vs 0. The centrifugal core of great creators here is spinning too fast to take on a solid state, and most of the original core has spun off into the stars where nothing matters.

Your experience with LBP1 is very different from mine. LBP2 is business as usual for me because I didn't get very many plays on my LBP1 levels either...and with the 18 or so levels I published over the course of LBP1's lifespan not one stuck on cool pages. As for the level showcase...I think it's always been difficult getting your level noticed if you weren't a well known creator...if that weren't the case F4F would never have been necessary.

So, your basically me now...a little fish in a big pond! 		2011-03-15 23:16:00

Author:
fullofwin
Posts: 1214

My average was about 1000 when the seven days cycle was implemented. I never got more than 2000 in a month. The most I ever got was 10,000 on Free At Last and that took over a year to accumulate but that's only because it got on page 1 for about 4 hours before it's 7 days were up (was also the 18th level I released I think?), and wasn't trashed down to 3 stars within the first 100 plays. People sure tried hard to stop that one, though. Believe me.

You're confusing me with a highest rated page kind of guy never was

I never really participated in F4F, 'cause I used to just browse and play everything I could when it was feasible to keep track of it all, and give feedback whether I got some in return or not, or had nothing new in the showcase to get feedback on. I also 100% returned feedback without it. F4F was put in because so many people would post and run, and so many would advertise but never reciprocate. It was kind of a way to get people who support each other more support than those who support no one.		2011-03-15 23:37:00

Author:
Unknown User

Lol, 100 to 180 was the most I ever got, and that was on a level I had published since the start of LBP. I am not great, and most of my rant is the lack of F4F, but that is just because so many people are publishing. But I do agree that seeing plays is very nice, crowns are not my thing, because I love the sack face costume I made, spotlights are for police vehicles...but again anything saying you are doing a nice job rocks. So I agree with the lack of plays kind of really removing the want to create. I am sure if I did not have several other projects I would be creating more than I am now...but with that said, it does seem less fun. My lame little jet level got more smiles and such than the one I had been trying so hard to make its best.2011-03-16 02:02:00

Author:
celsus
Posts: 822

Basically Ninja said what I meant...plus...in the "old days" it was the community work itself that drove the direction of the community, not the taste of MM.
When there was a bunch of guys (Grant, Ccubbage, Ninja, comph, wex, gevurah, jaeyden just to name a few) that with very little tools pushed the boundaries were no one imagined.
Really, where's the last "pure platformer" in the MM picks?
Even in the beta, Nattura's and Geosatus's levels were almost ignored, but they were cool, fun and someway innovative (as a platformer can be innovative).
I always wondered if the MM picks are meant to point out levels that deserve to be played, or if they're just a "guys! look at what cool things you can do with the tools WE GAVE YOU...I perceive them more as a self patting on the back than a real service, but that's my rude, trolling opinion perhaps.		2011-03-16 07:14:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

I always wondered if the MM picks are meant to point out levels that deserve to be played, or if they're just a "guys! look at what cool things you can do with the tools WE GAVE YOU...I perceive them more as a self patting on the back than a real service, but that's my rude, trolling opinion perhaps.

They're a marketing tool. For LBP2, that tool happens to be the "hai guyz look!" you described. They were begging for pick suggestions at launch... oh I dunno... to sell sell sell. Now that the game is two months old, we haven't seen a new pick in over two weeks. I guess Spaff took everyone with him on holidays 		2011-03-16 07:52:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

They're a marketing tool. For LBP2, that tool happens to be the "hai guyz look!" you described. They were begging for pick suggestions at launch... oh I dunno... to sell sell sell. Now that the game is two months old, we haven't seen a new pick in over two weeks. I guess Spaff took everyone with him on holidays

I'm no marketing genious Skwisgaar , but what's the point on marketing to someone that has already purchased your product?
More than that that marketing tool is depressing part of the creative team that made the first game great, because it wasn't the tool or MM that made LBP great, but the community.
And, as I won't ever be tired to say...the lack of a thank to the LBPCentral and the LBPWorkshop communities in the credits of the game has been...uhmmm...outrageous.		2011-03-16 08:03:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

Lol, 100 to 180 was the most I ever got, and that was on a level I had published since the start of LBP. I am not great, and most of my rant is the lack of F4F, but that is just because so many people are publishing. But I do agree that seeing plays is very nice, crowns are not my thing, because I love the sack face costume I made, spotlights are for police vehicles...but again anything saying you are doing a nice job rocks. So I agree with the lack of plays kind of really removing the want to create. I am sure if I did not have several other projects I would be creating more than I am now...but with that said, it does seem less fun. My lame little jet level got more smiles and such than the one I had been trying so hard to make its best.

The Optimal Gemini level I published in August 2010 when I came back got about 160 I think. 36 Chambers did better, but I think that was from two friends, SHENOA77 & nirvanagrrl playing it like 20 times a day trying to get my #1 score spot. No plays came easy, and I thank any friends who supported me, and the LBPC community for it.

I was lucky I started in '08 and worked like crazy on stuff non-stop or I'd never have gotten that much. In 3 months of 2008 I'd put out 5 full levels, a couple tech demos, and 3 or 4 mini games, and had found LBPC in December I think. The oldest full level's still published were False Idols 1 & 2, Seminal Gemini, Metal Slug Solid, and Facial Reconstruction - the one that had the most plays by August '09 when I left was False Idols 1 at 1,200 slowly accumulated plays.

Alot of people you might know had the same pattern of work ethic & modest results: Jaeyden & GruntosUK off the top of my head. Even rtm's lone level never got what it was worth, and the things always been an uphill battle... but there was never a gorilla sitting at the top throwing barrels down the slope saying 'stay in your place'		2011-03-16 11:52:00

Author:
Unknown User

One thing that makes me freak out for example is how much Ninja is underrated...he left for some months and some people here doesn't even know who he is and what he has done for LBP in the early days.
And I don't like when "things" have no memories of the past.
And it can't be helped since it's how I am, and probably I won't ever stop complaining about it.
Everyone has fair points of views and I respect them, but I don't share them.
I remember when my desire was to try to reach the quality of Grant and Ninja, and how much rtm helped me with logic.
There was a more sane competition, there was the hate for H4H and people didn't complain for the low amounts of plays and hearts, for the lack of acknowledgement, sometimes the comment from few creators here was enough to be happy.		2011-03-16 12:24:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

I've been working on a series since the games release. I'm still creating stuff but I'll only release when all the levels are done, I haven't disappeared, create is still eating all my spare time Its platforming and puzzles to (in my normal style), no mini-games here 2011-03-16 12:42:00

Author:
GruntosUK
Posts: 1754

Basically Ninja said what I meant...plus...in the "old days" it was the community work itself that drove the direction of the community, not the taste of MM.

Well, I guess this is the part I just don't get...the existence of MM Picks has ZERO affect on what I create...are you saying it has for you?!? If you're creating a level for the specific purpose of trying to nab an MM Pick I just don't get it...and you'll surely wind up disappointed. I know folks are working on cool stuff...it just takes time...be patient.

Honestly, this just seems like a bunch of whining. Maybe it's best that MM Picks appears to be going the way of the "News" section. I thought it was a nice addition...I never thought it was meant to show the very best levels, how could it? You'd need a room full of monkeys to play through all the crap that gets published every day and then we'd probably end up with picks featuring bananas and flung poo.

If MM Picks aren't going to be updated on a regular basis and just ends up upsetting people, meh, who needs it...I know I've already stopped checking it...I'll only press a lever without getting a pellet so many times...		2011-03-16 15:30:00

Author:
fullofwin
Posts: 1214

I'm no marketing genious Skwisgaar , but what's the point on marketing to someone that has already purchased your product?
More than that that marketing tool is depressing part of the creative team that made the first game great, because it wasn't the tool or MM that made LBP great, but the community.

Well, the community section is essentially free content that adds value to the game. They can push this to potential consumers through advertising (which we've already seen) and by word of mouth from existing owners. The latter is particularly important, and new content on the community pages keeps replay value up thereby prolonging this effect, compared to your average game which gets shelved permanently after 3 weeks.		2011-03-16 15:40:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

Have you guys ever tried to accomplish something for a while, putting in a great amount of effort and focus (too much maybe) and then finally achieve your goal? What would your new motivation be? Was it really worth it? or have you lost the true meaning in your chase? I create because I think LBP is really cool. I wouldnt frown on a Mm pick but surely it is not the only apple on the lbp tree. I know I may sound contradictory compared to the defending of this thread I have done. I still think it is fine to pursue a pick, but I only meant as a peripheral pursuit. If a pick is your sole motivation, maybe its time to think about what first made you love LBP.2011-03-16 15:50:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

I thought it was a nice addition...I never thought it was meant to show the very best levels, how could it? You'd need a room full of monkeys to play through all the crap that gets published every day and then we'd probably end up with picks featuring bananas and flung poo.

If MM Picks aren't going to be updated on a regular basis and just ends up upsetting people, meh, who needs it...I know I've already stopped checking it...I'll only press a lever without getting a pellet so many times...

Almost an headshot...but if it isn't meant to show the best levels...what is it for?
Self tool promotion?
As you, I don't care about the crown or the MM pick, but the only existance of the picks sets a trend on the larger "non-forums" community and it's having an impact on the hardcore community as well .
This community has 3100 active users...plus there's workshop, other communities around...but I think that we can count max 6000 active hardcore users, and I would say that at least the 30% of the fanbase doesn't build regularly (and I'm really generous on numbers).
So, let's say 4200 LBP users that invest time on create, but, according to vgchartz (http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/43908/littlebigplanet-2/), at least 1 million of copies/users...
That's just a small percentage of people that "may" not bother about the picks...Central is just a small "corrall".
Do you really think that average user "xjohnx94" won't bother about MM picks?
MM picks set a trend, you don't like it, I don't like it, you don't care, I don't care, OK...but it's doing it.
Remember that the mass will always move towards the safest direction, the one that is marked...only few decide to try other ways and either they get lost, never reach any place or just end up illuminated...who knows...		2011-03-16 15:58:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

the only existance of the picks sets a trend on the larger "non-forums" community and it's having an impact on the hardcore community as well .

As far as I can tell, from watching the way the community views everything these days, every attempt MM makes to interface with the community in a personal way is seen as a bad thing... Supposedly we like the fun, friendly nature of the company, but in reality any time that is expressed in real terms, in a genuine way, people demand a colder, more calculated approach....		2011-03-16 16:16:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

As far as I can tell, from watching the way the community views everything these days, every attempt MM makes to interface with the community in a personal way is seen as a bad thing... Supposedly we like the fun, friendly nature of the company, but in reality any time that is expressed in real terms, in a genuine way, people demand a colder, more calculated approach....
people are people, I am sure some of us would complain about free money.		2011-03-16 16:18:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

Almost an headshot...but if it isn't meant to show the best levels...what is it for?
Self tool promotion?

Silly me I guess...I just assumed it was, hey look, here's something kind of cool someone did with the create tools that we think a wide range of folks (including those with ADD) might appreciate.


Do you really think that average user "xjohnx94" won't bother about MM picks?

No...I think the masses go right to MM Picks and Cool levels...I don't understand these people and I don't pretend to...I also couldn't be more apathetic about trying to appeal to their decidedly fickle tastes. Let them play their bomb survival levels and craptastic pac-man re-treads. I don't see how anything the masses does has any bearing on the "core/dedicated" creators you mention or that it's any different in LBP2. I appreciate having my levels played and getting some feedback from some folks here...after that...why do I care that some random 13 year old from Kalamazoo that has never tried to create a level and was looking for the latest survival level fad plays it?		2011-03-16 16:31:00

Author:
fullofwin
Posts: 1214

Well, I guess this is the part I just don't get...the existence of MM Picks has ZERO affect on what I create...are you saying it has for you?!? If you're creating a level for the specific purpose of trying to nab an MM Pick I just don't get it...and you'll surely wind up disappointed. I know folks are working on cool stuff...it just takes time...be patient.

Honestly, this just seems like a bunch of whining. Maybe it's best that MM Picks appears to be going the way of the "News" section. I thought it was a nice addition...I never thought it was meant to show the very best levels, how could it? You'd need a room full of monkeys to play through all the crap that gets published every day and then we'd probably end up with picks featuring bananas and flung poo.

He doesn't mean that, and nobody is compromising themselves. An audience can be conditioned to behave a certain way and expect certain things by esteeming a public image and a consistent standard of quality to them. This how radio and TV work. The audience is skewed however the presented material is skewed. No venue works any different. I'm not all up in MM's Koolaid to care what's holding them back, and any benefit I get from them, is what I've paid for. Everything else I get out of this game comes from my work, and my community. The system has been exploitable and unrewarding to 99% of serious creators for 2 years and a topic of interest for discontent creators since 2008. The MM Pick was a possible solution.

If I went to a strip club everyday, I'd be happy if the type of girls I like were there, and if the bar started carrying my favorite drink, and if my stripper girlfriend was making money while I sit there and throw a few back. You could say 'go to another strip club'... but I see we're at the same bar right now, so we couldn't very well give each other that advice.

You're content with Woolybully's performance. That's good. If consistent failure doesn't demoralize you, and systematic monocracy doesn't annoy you personally, or for the sake of others, then there is no problem and this will be "whining" to you. One thing I can say with absolute certainty, is that if you only had 5 plays on WoolyBully right now, you'd be thinking "what more can I do next time? how can I improve this? how can I get more plays on it?" - I know this because you put your heart into what you make, it shows, and you post your stuff here hoping people will like it.

I'm confused as to why you think you're standing your artistic ground where others are not? Woolybully is a very safe creative venture crafted with passion & care, but if you don't think it's a quality enough effort on your own part to warrant the ridiculous amount of plays an MM Pick would net it, and shouldn't be suffocated away by trash, then I think you should have more love for your work... like a parent has when hoping their baby grows up to be a doctor.

I was happy when I saw Chimpanzee recorded your level, because that's getting cosigned, and puts the all seeing MM eye on you, as well as opens you up to another audience. If you consistently hit it out of the park a few times now, you'll never be able to relate to this topic again, and I'll say more power to ya.		2011-03-16 16:35:00

Author:
Unknown User

As far as I can tell, from watching the way the community views everything these days, every attempt MM makes to interface with the community in a personal way is seen as a bad thing... Supposedly we like the fun, friendly nature of the company, but in reality any time that is expressed in real terms, in a genuine way, people demand a colder, more calculated approach....

Not me. I don't really even like the montage of faces in the intros. A friend of mine who knows nothing about LBP or any of this kind of stuff, actually called it self indulgent arrogance when I started LBP2 up for the first time... I laughed.

MM, to me, is like a girl you've been trying to get a date with for years, who won't give you the time of day. I stopped caring, and I'd rather pimp her out than marry her. All I see now are dollar signs.

R.I.P. Nate Dogg		2011-03-16 16:50:00

Author:
Unknown User

As far as I can tell, from watching the way the community views everything these days, every attempt MM makes to interface with the community in a personal way is seen as a bad thing... Supposedly we like the fun, friendly nature of the company, but in reality any time that is expressed in real terms, in a genuine way, people demand a colder, more calculated approach....

I think it's safe to say that the way you perceive and relate to MM is different than mine...
It would be in standard circumstances, so it is as you know them personally and me not.
You obviously give them a benefit that I don't...I'm a MM customer, you're a MM friend.
Then as you see, the same kind of customers can have different reactions.

And I'm sorry fullofwin is so focused on her point to not understand others POW.
It's all about you, you, you (and I'm not targeting at you...bah)...you're a great creator, a valuable asset to the community, but you're not the community as a whole, a community that is fortunately made up of a lot of different minds, and fortunately the more minds differs, the more the community has to gain.
And this is, I favour a diversity that, as I see, MM it's not encouraging...because in the end whatever you see in the MM picks is just a different way to use sackbots and controllinators with different degrees of logic...awesome stuff...but all of the same kind.		2011-03-16 16:53:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

You're content with Woolybully's performance. That's good. If consistent failure doesn't demoralize you, and systematic monocracy doesn't annoy you personally, or for the sake of others, then there is no problem and this will be "whining" to you. One thing I can say with absolute certainty, is that if you only had 5 plays on WoolyBully right now, you'd be thinking "what more can I do next time? how can I improve this? how can I get more plays on it?" - I know this because you put your heart into what you make, it shows, and you post your stuff here hoping people will like it.

I'm confused as to why you think you're standing your artistic ground where others are not? Woolybully is a very safe creative venture crafted with passion & care, but if you don't think it's a quality enough effort on your own part to warrant the ridiculous amount of plays an MM Pick would net it, and shouldn't be suffocated away by trash, then I think you should have more love for your work... like a parent has when hoping their baby grows up to be a doctor.

I was happy when I saw Chimpanzee recorded your level, because that's getting cosigned, and puts the all seeing MM eye on you, as well as opens you up to another audience. If you consistently hit it out of the park a few times now, you'll never be able to relate to this topic again, and I'll say more power to ya.

If one of my levels got an MM Pick or got on Cool levels, great...but that's really of secondary importance. When I finish a level it's rather sad because for me the fun is over and I need to start thinking about my next project. My levels are like baby birds...after a few weeks I kick them out of the nest to either fly or splat on their own and will have little future interaction with them.

I have 2 hobbies I really enjoy, drawing/painting and video games. Both take lots of time, I like LBP because it lets me combine my hobbies...that's it's...that's why I create. This is why my levels tend to focus on visuals over gameplay. Am I proud of my levels, sure...do I think they're suitable for the masses, probably not.

The plays on Wooly Bully are picking up lately...maybe this is due to Chimpanzee's recording...the quality of the reviews/comments has seriously degraded and I'm getting a decididly higher percentage or frowns (always with no explaination)...so what's in it for me...this wider exposure?!?

If I got only 5 plays on my levels...why would I equate that to the level's content or quality...play count is about promotion, exposure, and some luck...luck you can't control and I'm not interested in spending much effort or energy on promotion..		2011-03-16 17:00:00

Author:
fullofwin
Posts: 1214

Its seems to me now that maybe some people think not getting a "Mm Pick" equals getting a "Mm Not Picked". It is strange to think that Mm keeps running into these issues with (I am sure) the very best intentions.2011-03-16 17:05:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

Whatever, i don't agree that LBP2 is not about making good visuals, breaking the limits (this one must be a bad joke), hard work, making good story, making fun levels, helping each other, discovering things and all that fun that you said that it was in times LBP1. And most of i don't aggre everyone aiming on MM taste, i really don't, i see lot of standard platforming levels on around on cool pages, lot of people playing them and still like them (this is why they are in cool pages in first place). Don't forget, key to get a plays in LBP2 and good rates to be even have a chance to be noticed by MM is to aim community taste not MM taste.You saying that Nattura levels was complitly ignored in the beta, that strange because i seen him on cool pages all the time and his got LBPodcast featured about twice a time.

Omega you are now one who takes MMPicks a little bit too seriesly, thinking that they set the trend and ruing the community, saying that community habits from LBP1 dissapered. I don't feel that way, i feel LBP2 is exactly all about what you said about LBP1 XD		2011-03-16 17:14:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

Lol, I think people are getting "Holier than thou" about not needing an MM pick. Again as I have said I tried tweeting the MM picks after I had tried several other ways of getting feedback on a level I spent months on, building it for well over a year. I was annoyed about the weak feedback, having to hit up the people that have done more than their share of feedback for the community, trying the reviews, and several other areas. MM still has yet to respond about he 160 hour glitch and several others I got after I sent in the emails the way they request. So when I noticed the tweet thing did nothing (zero plays...which I understand seeing as they must be flooded)...it just really kind of sucked. People put in hard work, and players don't really have a need to play the levels, they could make trophies for beating random levels, add the creator hugs for players getting high scores, or such. I am not sure, just ranting on, but the people here are not complaining about not getting MM picks, they are complaining about working hard and not getting any amount of plays on the levels. I actually posted a request for feedback on a "Game Level"...which may have worked.2011-03-16 17:17:00

Author:
celsus
Posts: 822

@Shadow
yes, I take them seriously because they make someone disappoint...not me, not you, not fullofwin...
And podcast it's not MM picks...
Their pick is the official recognization, and it's something that MM encourages to reach because MM set a D A M N pin for it.
As they set an effin' pin for the crown.
It's the combo of those 2 things (gestion of the pick and the pin) that already works bad by themself that becomes explosive.
I think it's highly hypocrite from MM behalf to "ask" users to do their best to achieve the MM pick status (most of the people wants it for the pin) when they can't play all the levels that are released.
It's a flawed system...then you may like it and I have not problems, as I'm not asking to erase the MM picks, but yeah, if I could have an option I would rather chose to deactivate the MM picks from MY copy of the game in the menu.		2011-03-16 17:47:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

If one of my levels got an MM Pick or got on Cool levels, great...but that's really of secondary importance.

Who is it of primary importance to? No one, as far as I can tell, creates anything less than what they enjoy and what they feel is the best, because they like to. I'm almost certain that everyone in this thread, that I've ever met in game, or talked to on this board that's expressed interest in more visibility and for people to enjoy what they do, sees promotion and exposure as nothing more than a means to an end and something post-script to actually creating the level.


When I finish a level it's rather sad because for me the fun is over and I need to start thinking about my next project.

That's how everyone is: On to the next thing. However, there appears to be a critical difference between you and I. When I say "I hope you enjoy this" after posting a thread here, I really mean it, and I can't cherry pick positivity and bask in it, while disregarding the negativity.

I continue to improve anything I release, and accommodate any reasonable requests and try to find that sweet spot. It's like adding a little salt to the same dish. I continue to do this even if I've started another project or began tinkering and will continue to reiterate and refine things of my own velition, and do so until the inkling to do so has left my mind, as I have done even with releases that are over 2 years old. Is this compromising my artistic vision? Is it pandering?


I have 2 hobbies I really enjoy, drawing/painting and video games. Both take lots of time, I like LBP because it lets me combine my hobbies...that's it's...that's why I create. This is why my levels tend to focus on visuals over gameplay. Am I proud of my levels, sure...do I think they're suitable for the masses, probably not.

This is why everyone creates, and every single person here has some creative passion, skill, or interest they bring to these creative endeavors and enjoys playing videos games. That's why we're all here.

You don't think your levels are suitable for the masses? Why? Woolybully is a fun, humorous platformer with nice visuals, easy gameplay, and full of bouncy, shooty fun. It's like your artistic rendition and narrative take on the formula for quality established by the story mode in LBP1 and LBP2. It's the same style of successful magic that jackofcourse and lockstitch have to varying degrees, but with more emphasis on looks. It's not an avant garde or abstruse thing that should scare anyone away or offend anybody's sensibilities; it's as good as any great level I ever played on highest rated and by all rights has the winning formula down pat.


the quality of the reviews/comments has seriously degraded and I'm getting a decididly higher percentage or frowns (always with no explaination)...so what's in it for me...this wider exposure?!?

Of what importance is any of this, if you're done with the level, and could care less about the reception it receives? You let your baby bird fly, and the horizon in which it can flap it's little wings is ever expanding. You don't want it to fly straight into a brick wall and die, do you?


If I got only 5 plays on my levels...why would I equate that to the level's content or quality...play count is about promotion, exposure, and some luck...luck you can't control and I'm not interested in spending much effort or energy on promotion..

I know why you make levels. The same reasons I do. I can assure you that if this wasn't a self perpetuating public venue for you to share your creativity in, you wouldn't still be tinkering with the level editor 2 years later, and neither would I.

Why do you publish levels, if the only opinion that matters is your own? If the only play that matters is your own? Why do you post level threads here prefixed with F4F if the input of others is meaningless to you, and has no bearing on how you view the work, what you intend to do with it, or the direction you take your work in?

The next level you make, I think you should publish it locked, and only allow LBPC users and friends in with a pass code, but never unlock it. That'll prove your point!		2011-03-16 17:48:00

Author:
Unknown User

If I went to a strip club everyday.....

My mind started wandering there, I'm gonna have to re-read the rest of that post 		2011-03-16 17:54:00

Author:
GruntosUK
Posts: 1754

Those were the days...2011-03-16 18:02:00

Author:
Unknown User

I can assure you is that if this wasn't a self perpetuating public venue for you to share your creativity in, you wouldn't still be tinkering with the level editor 2 years later, and neither would I. Imagine if rtm had nobody to talk about logic with, and no reason to know everything he does now?

Yeah, but no amount of plays would enhance that experience. No amount of hearts or pink ribbons around my levels... Being able to talk about such things with others and share your creation with a dozen or so people is awesome... 10,000 plays is ********.


Celsus, I feel for ya man, but I assure you, getting an MM pick will not get you significant feedback, you'll get thousands upon thousands of plays with disproportionally poor ratings... That's the wonderful reception you'll receive with over-exposure, abuse and sad faces.... Apparently this is the dream...		2011-03-16 18:02:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Yeah, but no amount of plays would enhance that experience. No amount of hearts or pink ribbons around my levels... Being able to talk about such things with others and share your creation with a dozen or so people is awesome... 10,000 plays is ********.


Celsus, I feel for ya man, but I assure you, getting an MM pick will not get you significant feedback, you'll get thousands upon thousands of plays with disproportionally poor ratings... That's the wonderful reception you'll receive with over-exposure, abuse and sad faces.... Apparently this is the dream...


...but, rtm... if the logic pack hadn't been a success and reached so many people, it would have been pointless beyond it's value of presentation and it's modest amount of gameplay. There would have been no ripple affect on the overall quality being produced today by making inside tricks more accessible and readily available, and there would have been nothing to cement you then as what you are known as today. You'd have been preaching to the choir.

Thankfully, ConfusedCartman was able to make sure MM knew about it!

I've gotten great comments from people outside of LBPC, who find levels at random, and if I need 10,000 plays to get 10 good comments, I'll take the heat. If I can, for once, publish a level and forget about it, and come back to see it doing well a few weeks later, I'll be happy.

If it's cemented on the front page and can be played at the click of a button, at a moment's notice, then it's almost guaranteed that the right people will find it. One of those great comments might even be some random stranger telling 1,000 other people that they're idiots for you... by far the most rewarding of all.		2011-03-16 18:21:00

Author:
Unknown User

Their pick is the official recognization, and it's something that MM encourages to reach because MM set a * * * * pin for it.
As they set an effin' pin for the crown.

But they're secret pins. You can still get a nice 100% on each pin page without getting either of these pins. Furthermore, there are also pins for dying a lot, but that doesn't mean Mm wants you to suck at this game. I think you're reading way too much into this. If you happen to get Mm-picked, good for you. Otherwise... no big deal. Not every band reaches the top of the charts, or makes a big record deal, regardless of the quality of their music.		2011-03-16 18:21:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Getting an Mm pick is a double edged sword. You'll get hundreds (maybe thousands) of plays, but also enough spam, negativity and bad ratings from all the haters out there to make you think "why did I bother?" I had an Mm pick with Space Assassins and it did nothing for me, except to draw attention from the kind of people who I would rather not have noticed me. In fact, to avoid that kind of mass exposure again, I won't unlock the sequel to the community and only the people who want to play badly enough to ask me for a key will be playing it. This time I'm creating something purely for my own personal amusement/distraction, and not for the rude, unappreciative masses who would rip my baby apart like hungry vultures. Paranoid? Reclusive? Disillusioned? Yeah...that's what my Mm pick did for me.

Anyway...getting your level spotlighted here at LBPCentral is what you should be aiming for, if you want to attract an audience who will actually appreciate your hard work. Out there, it's just a shark pool and you'll be bleeding in the water with an Mm pick.		2011-03-16 18:25:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

This time I'm creating something purely for my own personal amusement, and not for the rude, unappreciative masses who would rip my baby apart like hungry vultures.

...and I think you're completely in the right for calling them that and telling it like it is. Never in a million years will I act like you're the problem, and that it shouldn't be different than it is.

(this wasn't directed at you or your point, just saying what I need to say)


Anyway...getting your level spotlighted here at LBPCentral is what you should be aiming for, if you want to attract an audience who will actually appreciate your hard work

I've had and seen many people's work ripped apart on here, too, though... including post spotlight resent. There is only numbers, friends, and supportive people: whatever positivity you can extract from negativity. Nothing says love to me now like "[insert name] played 26 times, failed to beat your score of [#]" even if they don't say a word.		2011-03-16 18:30:00

Author:
Unknown User

@Shadow
yes, I take them seriously because they make someone disappoint...not me, not you, not fullofwin...
And podcast it's not MM picks...
Their pick is the official recognization, and it's something that MM encourages to reach because MM set a D A M N pin for it.
As they set an effin' pin for the crown.
It's the combo of those 2 things (gestion of the pick and the pin) that already works bad by themself that becomes explosive.
I think it's highly hypocrite from MM behalf to "ask" users to do their best to achieve the MM pick status (most of the people wants it for the pin) when they can't play all the levels that are released.
It's a flawed system...then you may like it and I have not problems, as I'm not asking to erase the MM picks, but yeah, if I could have an option I would rather chose to deactivate the MM picks from MY copy of the game in the menu.

Did MM ever said what MM Pick is really is? Did they really said that best to achieve the MM pick status? Do pin was made to things that need to be done? Thats major unknown what people are discussing it. Pin is achivment and being MMpicked is achivment so you got a pin, people are the one who misunderstand idea of achivments as a ultimate objective. "official recognization" does not come from mmpick, as Morgana said she and Comph (except Pirus but only minority knows that is made by him) never get picked, still lot of people know who they are. BobTox came out of nowhere and at least lot of people from LBPC know his skunk factory and he didn't been picked,there ton of other levels and creators that says in memory of lot of people, yet none of them been picked. Majority of recognition come from cool pages and it always been like that.

Oh, disable MMPick option does not make any sense, you know that 		2011-03-16 18:36:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

Lol, I was worried about many plays getting many sad faces, but I figured I would get some feedback, fix the level, then delete and republish the fixed version. Back in LBP when I got plays each time I updated I was hit by the one star wave...so to have fun I deleted all my levels, republished them and then locked them all the second they got 5 stars...I know that means I only had 1 or 2 plays on each level, but I took a photo of all 20 levels with five stars and posted it in LBP just to mess with the haters. I think I posted it here too. But even with all the hate I still got the reviews and feedback. Now I got feedback that was bad and frowns and no plays...so getting the level posted could not make it worse. With that said I lucked out in the publish of my level with three sci-fi creators playing my level, and I was able to play theirs and get feedback rather quickly. I was more annoyed that I actually tweeted (always feel dirty when I post a tweet, kind of seem like selling out).2011-03-16 18:36:00

Author:
celsus
Posts: 822

...and I think you're completely in the right for calling them that and telling it like it is. Never in a million years will I act like you're the problem, and that it shouldn't be different than it is.

(this wasn't directed at you or your point, just saying what I need to say)

I'm not quite "getting" your tone. Are you having a sarcastic dig here, or actually agreeing with me? 		2011-03-16 18:47:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

kind of seem like selling out

Nah. There's nothing to sell out of: it's always been jumping through hoops. Do what you have to do. imo you shouldn't have to if you've made something great... a serious creator's worst level is better than 99% of the garbage that's obscuring them day in and day out by the thousands, minute after minute.


I'm not quite "getting" your tone. Are you having a sarcastic dig here, or actually agreeing with me?

I was agreeing with what you said in that sentence I quoted, and using it as an opportunity to say I love it when people vent about what's wrong with the system or what's wrong with the majority of LBP players, since alot of the guff I've gotten in here is people that are just so totally cool with how much bull all this stuff is


Did MM ever said what MM Pick is really is?

I don't remember what it said, but it actually clarifies what the MM Pick is meant to signify in the tutorials for LBP2. Something about "look at this"		2011-03-16 18:50:00

Author:
Unknown User

I was agreeing with what you said in that sentence I quoted, and using it as an opportunity to say I love it when people vent about what's wrong with the system or what's wrong with the majority of LBP players, since alot of the guff I've gotten in here is so totally cool with how much bull all this stuff is.

Ok, all good then. You're still on my "to give a key to" list...whether you want one or not. 		2011-03-16 18:58:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

As far as I can tell, from watching the way the community views everything these days, every attempt MM makes to interface with the community in a personal way is seen as a bad thing... Supposedly we like the fun, friendly nature of the company, but in reality any time that is expressed in real terms, in a genuine way, people demand a colder, more calculated approach....

I don't think that's a fair blanket statement to make about the community. I think (perhaps naively) that the majority of the community think Mm is doing a bang up job and couldn't be happier, but nobody starts threads about how everything is perfect--it'd be annoying, even to the other happy people, and the malcontents would immediately accuse them of sucking up (I don't understand how it can be sucking up if the person you're sucking up to never reads it, but then I can't follow people's logic on the internet half of the time).

It seems to me that the people complaining feel like they deserve something for their efforts. You don't. No amount of work you put into the editor is going to make you deserve a certain number of plays or a pick or a crown or any other perceived reward. If you publish a level and it wallows in obscurity, those are the breaks. It's frustrating, but it's life. There was never a promise that if you spend time playing a game, you will receive such and such for your efforts. The only promise was that you could play, create, and share, but there was never any guarantee that anybody would have to take you up on what you were sharing or that you would get famous if you worked hard enough.

Yes, I would like to have my level get picked, I think it's good enough, and if an Mm employee played it and didn't pick it, I would think they were crazy, but I don't feel like I deserve it. I'm surprised it hasn't been, but I'm not angry at Mm for not playing it and picking it. They gave me a game to play and the ability to publish it where tens of thousands of people can choose to play it all for $60 (or $80 since I bought the CE). That's more than a fair deal and anything else would just be a bonus.

In fact, Mm has actually already gone above and beyond to try to help you get plays on your levels. There are pins for being the first person to play a community level, which encourages people to try out levels with zero plays, and for being among the first to complete, rate, or review a level with few plays. These pins are there to help jump-start new levels so they have a fighting chance of getting noticed. They've done everything they can to make it easier for us to succeed, so we have nothing to complain about.

Sorry if that was a bit hostile. I actually just finished reading something else completely unrelated that ****** me off so I was kind of already in the mood to rant 		2011-03-16 23:04:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188

Getting an Mm pick is a double edged sword. You'll get hundreds (maybe thousands) of plays, but also enough spam, negativity and bad ratings from all the haters out there to make you think "why did I bother?" I had an Mm pick with Space Assassins and it did nothing for me, except to draw attention from the kind of people who I would rather not have noticed me. In fact, to avoid that kind of mass exposure again, I won't unlock the sequel to the community and only the people who want to play badly enough to ask me for a key will be playing it. This time I'm creating something purely for my own personal amusement/distraction, and not for the rude, unappreciative masses who would rip my baby apart like hungry vultures. Paranoid? Reclusive? Disillusioned? Yeah...that's what my Mm pick did for me.

Anyway...getting your level spotlighted here at LBPCentral is what you should be aiming for, if you want to attract an audience who will actually appreciate your hard work. Out there, it's just a shark pool and you'll be bleeding in the water with an Mm pick.


I just want to say that my experience with getting a level picked has been totally the opposite. Sure, I get tons of spam, but it only takes moments to find the messages from my friends, read them, and delete the whole shot. No prob. Small price to pay. As far as the haters go I've had very little hate at all. My pick is doing for me just what a pick should. It's getting me exposure. That's all I've ever wanted, because I know, just like all of you know. That if people just play my levels, or yours. That plenty of people will enjoy them. I've played Space Assassins, and loved it. It's a fine level, and the only reason it gets hate is because it's a little difficult. I guess genre/difficulty is a factor when it comes to haters. You were just unlucky to have a level picked that isn't "main stream friendly" . Anyways, I wouldn't mind if you sent me a key.		2011-03-16 23:06:00

Author:
smasher
Posts: 641

OMG!
It seems like I'm disappointed that I haven't been MM picked
I didn't released a level yet...and and and...what I always said first and foremost some good pages ago is that the system can't be fair, since, unlike the spotlight here, MM can NOT be able to play all the levels.
Then I'm saying that MM is picking the levels that have the highest WOW factor and not the highest FUN factor, thus directing the community to experiment more than making fun levels.
Those are my complaints...I don't give a rat's bum about the MM picks, but I don't think MM is handling the matter in a way that brings benefits to the community, and that's just an opinion...and yes, shadowriver...seing the bleeping MM picks icon that begs "click me" annoys me, since I know that I'll open that and find that 95% of levels picked won't appeal me, or worst, they will bore me to death and make me beg to have those minutes back, since while I can appreciate the effort, I won't have my share of fun, and since I'm the average man and lower than average creator that works 13 hours a day in real life, I only want to relax on my chair and have fun.
I loved LBP for this and I see another mood in LBP2.
In my very own dear twisted perception of reality I don't like hat MM is doing...can I be entitled to have my own absurdly crazy opinion? Or after having shilled my money I have to like what MM decides?

Then...finally...we can cut to the chase with the good ol' "you can't please everyone", or "people are people" or "someone is always gonna hate", but that's simplistic and, if more than one complains...well, something has flaws.		2011-03-16 23:34:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

OMG!
It seems like I'm disappointed that I haven't been MM picked
I didn't released a level yet...and and and...what I always said first and foremost some good pages ago is that the system can't be fair, since, unlike the spotlight here, MM can NOT be able to play all the levels.
Then I'm saying that MM is picking the levels that have the highest WOW factor and not the highest FUN factor, thus directing the community to experiment more than making fun levels.
Those are my complaints...I don't give a rat's bum about the MM picks, but I don't think MM is handling the matter in a way that brings benefits to the community, and that's just an opinion...and yes, shadowriver...seing the bleeping MM picks icon that begs "click me" annoys me, since I know that I'll open that and find that 95% of levels picked won't appeal me, or worst, they will bore me to death and make me beg to have those minutes back, since while I can appreciate the effort, I won't have my share of fun, and since I'm the average man and lower than average creator that works 13 hours a day in real life, I only want to relax on my chair and have fun.
I loved LBP for this and I see another mood in LBP2.
In my very own dear twisted perception of reality I don't like hat MM is doing...can I be entitled to have my own absurdly crazy opinion? Or after having shilled my money I have to like what MM decides?

Then...finally...we can cut to the chase with the good ol' "you can't please everyone", or "people are people" or "someone is always gonna hate", but that's simplistic and, if more than one complains...well, something has flaws.

Ha ha, it's more likely that when you click MM Picks it's the same stuff as last time you checked. Seriously though, I've really enjoyed some of the picks a lot, like Vectroids and the pinball games...of course I think I played them originally before they were actually picked...but whatever. Just because they aren't all to my liking doesn't mean those levels shouldn't have been picked, and just because it's picked doesn't mean I have to play it. If it didn't look interesting I skipped it.

I rarely play a bad level these days...when I want to play something I usually take a look in Recent Activity and find a level that was highly rated with a glowing review from one of the creators I've hearted...if you're wasting time playing stuff you don't like that's your own fault, LBP2 is leaps and bounds ahead of LBP1 in this regard. If you played that pac-man level and want to complain that it wasted your time...did you honestly not know what you were getting when you clicked on it?

* Please tell me people don't actually care about pins now...I'm still laughing that that was brought up. Hey can someone help me get the slap 2 sack-people at once trophy! 		2011-03-16 23:57:00

Author:
fullofwin
Posts: 1214

Ha ha, it's more likely that when you click MM Picks it's the same stuff as last time you checked. Seriously though, I've really enjoyed some of the picks a lot, like Vectroids and the pinball games...of course I think I played them originally before they were actually picked...but whatever. Just because they aren't all to my liking doesn't mean those levels shouldn't have been picked, and just because it's picked doesn't mean I have to play it. If it didn't look interesting I skipped it.

I rarely play a bad level these days...when I want to play something I usually take a look in Recent Activity and find a level that was highly rated with a glowing review from one of the creators I've hearted...if you're wasting time playing stuff you don't like that's your own fault, LBP2 is leaps and bounds ahead of LBP1 in this regard. If you played that pac-man level and want to complain that it wasted your time...did you honestly not know what you were getting when you clicked on it?

* Please tell me people don't actually care about pins now...I'm still laughing that that was brought up. Hey can someone help me get the slap 2 sack-people at once trophy!

I think that every day, worlwide, at least one outstanding level is published, a level that would deserve a pick for a reason or another, so, again, picks not updated are "perceived from me" (better that I use this expression) as a fail.
And yeah, Vectroids was cool and fun, Cyberstrata, RoguePanda, Venice and BlastRadius too (just from the top of my mind), but I think they're unfortunately a minority.
Some levels were a bit of a let down, maybe because I respect the creators so much and I expected MOOOOOAR from the them.

Then, if you pick levels between the reviews of people you respect (like I do perhaps), what's the need of the MM pick?

And yes, people care about the pins, even for a simply sense of completion...when I love a game I want to blast through every single thing it's available to do, and I don't consider myself an hardcore gamer.		2011-03-17 07:53:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

It seems to me that the people complaining feel like they deserve something for their efforts. You don't. No amount of work you put into the editor is going to make you deserve a certain number of plays or a pick or a crown or any other perceived reward. If you publish a level and it wallows in obscurity, those are the breaks. It's frustrating, but it's life. There was never a promise that if you spend time playing a game, you will receive such and such for your efforts. The only promise was that you could play, create, and share, but there was never any guarantee that anybody would have to take you up on what you were sharing or that you would get famous if you worked hard enough.

Actually, I'd word that slightly differently. There are plenty of levels that deserve more plays, but noone's entitled to more plays, and noone's entitled to get Mm-picked. But yeah.


OMG!
Then I'm saying that MM is picking the levels that have the highest WOW factor and not the highest FUN factor, thus directing the community to experiment more than making fun levels.
...
I loved LBP for this and I see another mood in LBP2.
In my very own dear twisted perception of reality I don't like hat MM is doing...can I be entitled to have my own absurdly crazy opinion? Or after having shilled my money I have to like what MM decides?

You don't have to like everything Mm does, but it seems people here are placing the blame in the wrong place. Yes, there are still good levels that don't get any plays. But no, that doesn't mean Mm picks are a failure, that's not what they're for.

And yes, there are more non-platforming (non-LBP1) levels around, but that's also not the fault of Mm picks. I myself am not a big platformer fan, but with LBP1 you were pretty much forced to make platformers. Now that LBP2 has given us the tools to do it, people are bound to veer off into different genres, so yeah, LBP2 will be different. So accept that not everyone's a platformer fan and be happy that other people can play their genres in LBP2 now, too! 		2011-03-17 11:04:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

You don't have to like everything Mm does, but it seems people here are placing the blame in the wrong place. Yes, there are still good levels that don't get any plays. But no, that doesn't mean Mm picks are a failure, that's not what they're for.
In fact I don't like it, but it seems that there are problems about my tastes
So, can someone try to give me an answer to the question:
"what's the purpose of the MM picks?"
since they're not this, they're not that, theys're not white, they're not black, they're marketing tools for a product you have already bought, they have purpose but no one know which one it is...		2011-03-17 11:35:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

So, can someone try to give me an answer to the question:
"what's the purpose of the MM picks?"
since they're not this, they're not that, theys're not white, they're not black, they're marketing tools for a product you have already bought, they have purpose but no one know which one it is...

An MM Pick is a feature that puts a level into it's own separate, private category on the main community menu in-game making it highly visible to everyone who plays LBP2 online and immune to the daily, 1,000+ publish shuffle of the LBP2 servers. It ensures permanent visibility in a neat, clean section that players frequent due to it's accessibility and connotations of quality.

The reasons for a level being MM Picked are as follows:

- They happened to find it randomly in-game, play it, and really like it.

- They happened to find it randomly in-game, play it, and feel that it properly represents and conveys LBP2's potential.

- They happened to find it randomly in-game, play it, and think people might like it.

- The 3 preceding scenarios, but the method of ascertaining the level, was encouraged by highly visible promotion or via a trusted recommendation.

- They know who you are personally and think you've earned it, so your quality level will not be left to fend for itself.

- They recognize your name, want to see what you've done, and feel what you've done deserves to be set aside in it's own private category because it's great and people might like it.

- The level is part of a business agreement where visibility is obligatory, and publishing it only on the community servers would be the equivalent of lighting your money on fire and flushing it down the toilet..

- The level is part of a current or indefinitely long-term advertising goal via it's own employees or by outsourcing it to the community, who will do it for free 'cause they just wanna be loved.

Also of note: Two of the top 5 most downloaded games this week on PSN according to Pulse, are Plants Vs Zombies and Pacman Championship.

http://spotlight.lbpcentral.com/

btw, this thing here^ is not considered of any value to Media Molecule as a valued recommendation or method of easily finding quality levels that people in-game might want to play, and never was. Perhaps there was too much friend-based nepotism in some episodes (pot calling the kettle black), perhaps some levels weren't quite up to standard (again), or perhaps... just maybe... they're not really looking for good levels to play at all, don't really care what their community is up to outside of how it may benefit them, and the MM Pick feature is just a deluxe, VIP H4H package. It's a transparent PR routine. Opinions on the subject may vary.		2011-03-17 12:06:00

Author:
Unknown User

Yeah, you fail Ninja
You've highly technically detailed what the MM pickle is...
*with menacing baritonal voice*
still its purpose is widely unknown.
Even the purpose of black holes is unknown and I fear them 		2011-03-17 14:37:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

Well it a trend in gaming and social services to have featured content, "mmpick" is nothing new in this industry ;]2011-03-17 16:24:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

Yeah, it's nothing new, Shadow, and nothing to be revered or ever-so gracious for. The only reason it's of any importance is if it's helping you, or someone/something you support. I will not bend on this or adopt the new "ask not what [MM] can do for you, but what you can do for [MM]" attitude.2011-03-17 17:05:00

Author:
Unknown User

I will not bend on this or adopt the new "ask not what [MM] can do for you, but what you can do for [MM]" attitude.

TBH, most of it's not that attitude, it's certainly got nothing to do with kissing MM's *** like you imply... Some people just simply don't care that much about massive exposure - they aren't as obsessed with attention and genuinely don't see that an MM Pick is anything more than a nicety. It doesn't "help" us, that's where the difference is here, the simple notion that the "fame" and attention that comes with an MM Pick is of any worth...		2011-03-17 17:20:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Personally I don't give a rats *** if I ever get an MM pick. Like many of the posts imply, it's in many cases based on being at the right place at the right time.
It absolutely gives me a lot more to have a known an respected community creator comment positively on my level

And I don't really see myself terrortwittering and mailbombing MM staff iot attract attention.
But by all means, those who wish to do so are free to. No disrespect.		2011-03-17 18:45:00

Author:
Discosmurf
Posts: 210

I just want to say that my experience with getting a level picked has been totally the opposite. Sure, I get tons of spam, but it only takes moments to find the messages from my friends, read them, and delete the whole shot. No prob. Small price to pay. As far as the haters go I've had very little hate at all. My pick is doing for me just what a pick should. It's getting me exposure. That's all I've ever wanted, because I know, just like all of you know. That if people just play my levels, or yours. That plenty of people will enjoy them. I've played Space Assassins, and loved it. It's a fine level, and the only reason it gets hate is because it's a little difficult. I guess genre/difficulty is a factor when it comes to haters. You were just unlucky to have a level picked that isn't "main stream friendly" . Anyways, I wouldn't mind if you sent me a key.

That's nice to know your Mm pick worked out for you. Perhaps you avoided all the negativity that I experienced because your level has more universal appeal. TBH, I have considered the fact that the only reason I got so much spam and hate mail about Space Assassins is because the level was actually pretty crappy and it didn't deserve the pick anyways. Maybe the problem lies with me believing I have more creative talent than I actually do, and blaming the community for it's aggressive trolling when it is actually my delusional ego that is the problem. Whatever the case, I think it's fair to say I have only niche appeal as a creator and that my levels are really not suited to the mainstream.

Anyways, since you asked nicely...yes, of course I'll send you a key once the sequel is published. Aside from working on "bite size" projects like Stiff Pistons, this will be my final "proper" level anyways, so I really hope my swan song doesn't disapppoint...		2011-03-17 18:52:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

TBH, I have considered the fact that the only reason I got so much spam and hate mail about Space Assassins is because the level was actually pretty crappy and it didn't deserve the pick anyways. Maybe the problem lies with me believing I have more creative talent than I actually do, and blaming the community for it's aggressive trolling when it is actually my delusional ego that is the problem. Whatever the case, I think it's fair to say I have only niche appeal as a creator and that my levels are really not suited to the mainstream.

Nah, it may not be perfect, may even be flawed in many ways (we're not pros after all) and may in fact be confusing for people (was fine with me) but a serious creator's worst level is a hundred times better than 99% of what people find and play on LBP on a daily basis. I would probably do a remake of it completely different than you did and optimize things the way I know how, which would probably be flawed in some other way - ala me and centurion's different renditions of the same level... and I'm sure there's a handful of creators who'd love to take you through your level and tell you why their farts smell like roses, when you could do the same for them.

Ya see, I think if more challenging and cerebral levels were one of the established norms, even an arguably flawed challenging and cerebral level would be treated fairly, and your comments about getting stuck or bewildered would probably be less vitriolic and ignorant. If ignorance and stupidity is encouraged, then ignorance is the norm. If it's not, then a handful of obnoxious brats will stick out like a sore thumb and have much less importance in the grand scheme of things. Slowly, through a steady diet of competent designs and decent efforts, the audience would be groomed and conditioned to expect things that they might not be able to overcome in less than 5 seconds, and probably stop assuming that the slightest delay in momentum is the results of broken design because of prior experiences that are shown to them a thousand times a day in genuinely broken, unfinished, and unplayable levels everyday. In my opinion, quality, and the output of ALL serious creators should be forcefed as the standard.

Of course, quality vs quantity is not financially lucrative for a DLC powered business venture and as zabell99 put it... everyone has to feel special for this to be an interactive lego land. I can't expect it to change, but I can call it like I see it. Also a server where everyone who really loves creating and loves this enough to put hundreds of hours into something all the time gets the run of the house is like an impending communist threat to some creators who think "there can be only one"

Just an analogy: I'll tell someone what they're doing wrong - maybe say try shaving, get a haircut... get a car or something lol but I'll never tell them they're not good enough for her, when it's absolutely the other way around, and the reality is that she's not good enough for you. It's always good to keep on moving, keep trying, but that chick was crazy and needs Jesus.		2011-03-17 19:22:00

Author:
Unknown User

what *poof* Ninja *poof* said!

Cannot agree more with it than im doing atm,
could try to agree more.. but.. that would mean I have to become more than I am now!
Makes sense?

prolly not

I did lose *poof* Ninja *poof* on his last alinea though.


Just an analogy: I'll tell someone what they're doing wrong - maybe say try shaving, get a haircut... get a car or something lol but I'll never tell them they're not good enough for her, when it's absolutely the other way around, and the reality is that she's not good enough for you. It's always good to keep on moving, keep trying, but that chick was crazy and needs Jesus.

New cars? haircuts? shaving? (shaving whut?) who is this "she"? and why is it moving?
2011-03-17 20:09:00

Author:
Luos_83
Posts: 2136

Anything else you'd like to say probably also has a retort in this thread somewhere already. You can get mad, or whatever, and try to convince yourself I want a million plays and mememememe

Throughout this thread you have talked about improving exposure, increasing playcounts, marketing, appealing to the masses, getting compliments and MM Picks beging the vehicle to achieve this end goal. Not only that but you have been telling others that they should feel like that, that it's their dream and in fact, if they don't feel like that, then it's OK, they are just deluding themselves. Some of us aren't jaded. I still find it amazing that SS has 5,000 plays - it's mindboggling to me. That you measure success on these factors and refer to the alternative as "failure" speaks volumes.

In amongst all this you've made plenty of astute observations about the nature of the community, and the game etc. which is cool and there's plenty of stuff i agree with. But the general negativity, along with many underhanded jabs at various anonymous people and the overall attempts to drag everyone else down into the same pit is not cool. This thread is born out of bitterness and bile at not gaining the attention success that you feel you deserve (not that I'm claiming to fully understand why you're this jaded, and realistically I don't care). Somewhere, you've failed to realise that not everyone is as bitter as you. Sure, my comments can be easily spun as some jerk coming from on high and being all self-righteous, but the truth is I've always felt this way and even since getting a couple of endorsements from MM, I was never famous outside of this tiny subsection of the community. Maybe, after the MM pick I am now, but I'd rather not be, and I certainly don't feel any different.

And for anyone feeling downheartened by the general assumption that you need gratuitous LittleBigSuccess to enjoy yourself and are heading down a dark path of feeling rejected 'cause you don't haz MM Pick, just remember this ****'s supposed to be fun. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Anything beyond the actual joy of creation is a bonus, nothing more nothing less...



Firstly, this is a game. It's the number one thing to keep in your mind. LittleBigPlanet is a game and the absolute, sole purpose is to have fun - you don't need to compete with anyone to have fun and creation itself can be a joy. If it isn't, then possibly the create part of the game isn't for you. You don't have to create to play this game, you could just be a player and in this game, players have the luxury of other people delivering brand new content, free of charge, every single day. Which is a pretty fantastic thing, when you think about it.

Secondly, creation is art. Video games struggle to be taken seriously as an interactive art form, even in the modern world, but I look around at other creators and I see artists. As a parallel, consider painting. There have been people painting for thousands of years and there are some awesomely talented painters out there. Should that make it daunting the first time you pick up a brush? Of course not. And do amateur painters get upset if they don't get 100,000 views of their painting? Again, no. Yet for some reason, most LBP creators want to get those thousands of plays and hearts, because they have bought into the mindset that creating should have some reward at the end. Sure it's nice to know people like your art, but really... what is a play count vs actually enjoying creating art?

But that's all a bit serious. Just stick to the first point and have fun. Find some people to mess around with in create mode, play with the tools, learn from the other creators and play through their levels for ideas and just enjoy yourself


Oh, and about my job.... I independently applied for a publicaly-advertised programming job and worked my **** off to prove myself for it. Not sure why you'd take a pop at me for that... 		2011-03-17 20:13:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Anything beyond the actual joy of creation is a bonus, nothing more nothing less.

Bumped for great justice.

sure its nice to get 10k plays, an mm pick, a crown or whatever..
but for me, creating is what keeps me going.. I would have gone insane otherwise.

But then again..
I might be one of a few who semi-gave away a crown, and dont feel the need to get one.		2011-03-17 20:18:00

Author:
Luos_83
Posts: 2136

Me my self I'm just happy to see my friends play my level.
i always made the level for my self first, put everything able i enjoy in to it,
any Art or level i make is to see my dreams & fantasies come alive as i hate
my ideas only being in my head. then after that i upload it so anyone else who is interested
can enjoy if they so wish to do so too. yeah it's cool being well known, but I'd never want
to make levels or art just for that reason, if I'm going to be well known i want it just from being my self
and people like what comes from me just being me. yeah I'd love a MM pick.
but then again I'd like to have a level that's even worth a MM pick and for it to be a level i think feels like one.
but then again if i truly think the art or level i made is that good then a MM pick is not needed as
I'm already Proud of the level. but a MM pick would always be a nice thank you gift. *mew		2011-03-17 20:32:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz
Posts: 4261

And all of that said is the cream of what I'm saying.
LBP2 doesn't need the MM picks, they create a ruckus in the community that is not positive.
We have people who don't give a rat's bum, people obsessed with it, people that got a pick and ar not happy, people that got the pick and that didn't change them.
So what's the effin' point of the MM picks for the creators' community.
And what's the point of the MM picks for the players?

On a side note...I don't like things going on the personal side...I fairly thinks that whoever got involved in MM business deserves it, some more some less, but that doesn't matter.
What I don't like is MM keeping it as a rather closed group since there are great creators (in some cases better than the ones MM picked) that are not taken into consideration.
Anyway, life throws to anyone so many showel full of **** that a game is the least of my problems.

But seriously, as a rather intelligent being, though not a genious, I still keep coming up with questions about the things I see, why are they in place, how do they work, what's their purpose, who is in charge of making them works, how do they affect something?...		2011-03-17 20:46:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

Oh, and about my job.... I independently applied for a publicaly-advertised programming job and worked my **** off to prove myself for it. Not sure why you'd take a pop at me for that...

I don't wanna take sides in a debate where so many conflicting viewpoints carry their own merit, but I'm gonna get protective here. Rtm, you are "da man". I don't think anyone has contributed more to this forum, to sharing their encyclopedic knowledge of logic and to helping other creators step up their game to become the "greats" we now see them as, than you. Also, I don't think anyone could dispute that Subterranean Setbacks remains one of the most impressive, replayable, and highest quality levels ever produced in LBP.

If anyone "deserves" a big break, it's you, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.		2011-03-17 20:47:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Either someone is insanely dedicated and creates to be MM picked etc or just for fun and pass time.
Either way is cool and everyone will have different ways of seeing things

If you want a MM pick, good luck, keep working hard, wish the best for you and if not and all you do is just play for fun or idk whatever reason you create for the heck of it then get mortal kombat or killzone 3 and blow stuff up and chill out.

Id rather, 1000 times, just create with friends while being here laying back with nachos and cheese and maybe a beer or redbull and sleep for maybe 24 whole hours is better than a MM pick (TO ME), just to me. Who ever thinks to opposite is fine.

I use to hate it, cause It would make me feel stupid, cause my levels never even got to cool pages.
That changed when I noticed that...its not that it made me feel bad but I wasnt even ejoying what I made, thats why I deleted all 20 levels I had in lbp and started again in lbp2.		2011-03-17 20:51:00

Author:
Bloo_boy
Posts: 1019

But the general negativity, along with many underhanded jabs at various anonymous people and the overall attempts to drag everyone else down into the same pit is not cool. This thread is born out of bitterness and bile at not gaining the attention success that you feel you deserve (not that I'm claiming to fully understand why you're this jaded, and realistically I don't care).

Exactly. There's starting to be a bit too much hostility in this thread. Cut it out! Opinions are all well and good but leave personal attacks out of it.


LBP2 doesn't need the MM picks, they create a ruckus in this particular little niche of the community that is not positive.

Fixed it for you. You forget that just cuz a handful of people are complaining doesn't mean that the community at large has a problem with the picks. Personally, I'm pretty happy with the picks and I've enjoyed most of the levels that I've tried from it. I agree that there could be more, especially since it's my preferred method of level finding, but how ungrateful is it to complain that we're not given enough of a nice bonus?		2011-03-17 21:06:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188

Aaaaaaand that's just about enough 2011-03-17 22:30:00

Author:
Sehven
Posts: 2188


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