Archive: 33 posts

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I used randomizers to pick music and dialogue in my level, and it's the same pattern over and over again every time I play the level. What's the deal? :

2011-02-02 00:18:00 Author: Tyler Posts: 663

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Maybe a stupid question, but you noticed the "Pattern" setting on the Randomizer, right?

2011-02-02 00:45:00 Author: Unknown User

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I've found in my experimentation, they'll pick a different pattern every time you cause them to be reloaded. I'm filling up a board with random shapes, and the randomizer will make the same pattern until I reload the level.

2011-02-02 00:53:00 Author: Yofig Posts: 288

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A lot of people are having the same problem. It seems the randomizers seed as soon as they are placed down and not when the level starts. Therefore you get the same pattern each time in play mode. The creator who made the Minesweeper level, Bludgaboy found a work around, which is you have to emit the randomizer logic when the level starts. Seems that emitted randomizers seed upon their creation. There is also a thread about this at the MM bug reporting site "get satisfaction", hopefully if enough people mention the problem they can make some changes

2011-02-02 03:56:00 Author: kemengjie Posts: 42

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Works fine for me. :o

2011-02-02 06:50:00 Author: googleit36 Posts: 50

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Apologies if this topic has already been discussed. I noticed whilst making Clockworx 2 and also just now helping Chimpanzee with some logic in his level that randomisers give the same output sequence no matter how many times you rewind or restart the level. If the sequence it gives is 1,3,4,2,2,1,4,etc the first time you play it, it'll be the exact same if you play it again. This makes it rather useless for minigames where each time you play you want certain things to be different every time you play. For Clockworx 2 I had to make my own randomiser logic involving a player sensor, but we shouldn't really need to do that. Is this how it's supposed to work, a bug, or... what?

2011-02-04 21:16:00 Author: Nuclearfish Posts: 927

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I seem to remember that earlier on in the beta the randomiser was random, but around Patch 1.02 it changed, I think. I remember Slaeden-Bob talking about it somewhere...

2011-02-04 21:21:00 Author: FlipMeister Posts: 631

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Did you try changing the randomiser itself? Maybe it was just a glitch. If not, useless. The point of randomisers should be to randomise. Surely mm could easily program one that works as it should and not have lie about it.

2011-02-04 21:21:00 Author: KQuinn94Z Posts: 1758

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Why not a randomiser connecting to two randomisers, connecting to... That could go on forever.

2011-02-04 21:24:00 Author: Nurolight Posts: 918

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Why not a randomiser connecting to two randomisers, connecting to... That could go on forever. Lol, but from what he's saying, that would still have the same outcome, but it would take up more room Have you tried having the randomiser emitted into the game when you start? It would make your logic more confusing, but it could give it more randomness.

2011-02-04 21:29:00 Author: Kog Posts: 2358

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Did you try changing the randomiser itself? Maybe it was just a glitch. No, it's the same all the time for everyone no matter what the settings. As far as I know, anyway. If you change anything in create mode then go into play mode the order will be different from last time, but obviously when you publish the level it'll always be the same. If not, useless. The point of randomisers should be to randomise. Surely mm could easily program one that works as it should and not have lie about it. Why not a randomiser connecting to two randomisers, connecting to... That could go on forever. Well, it IS random in the sense it gives a random sequence. It does do its job. But no matter how many you connect together or how complex you make it, the random order will be the same every time you restart the level. Have you tried having the randomiser emitted into the game when you start? It would make your logic more confusing, but it could give it more randomness. Not tried that but even if it works it's not very useful if you need several wires coming from it. It also doesn't make any difference if you turn on the randomiser at a random player defined time, so emitters probably wouldn't work anyway. EDIT: Sorry, didn't see the first thread, thanks to the mod who merged it. I guess emitting does work then, may have to try that.

2011-02-04 21:31:00 Author: Nuclearfish Posts: 927

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Apologies if this topic has already been discussed. Merged with previous thread. Note the comment above... The creator who made the Minesweeper level, Bludgaboy found a work around, which is you have to emit the randomizer logic when the level starts. Seems that emitted randomizers seed upon their creation. There is also a thread about this at the MM bug reporting site "get satisfaction", hopefully if enough people mention the problem they can make some changes This method would require you to make your randomizer activate a number of named tags included in the emitted object, which would then be picked up by corresponding tag sensors in the level itself. Another option, if possible in your case, would be to use the initial movement of the player, via a player sensor, to "seed" the randomizer in some way, e.g. making it discard a random number of picks at the start. I suspect that MM won't want to change this behaviour (or any other logic misfeatures) now that the game's been released. Since some published levels may rely on this behaviour in order to function correctly, changing it in a patch would break those levels. It's equally possible that this behaviour was deliberate if it was required for the story levels to function correctly.

2011-02-04 21:58:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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I was working on a QTE system similiar to on Sonic Unleashed (Press several random buttons in order before time is up) last night And i had the same problem, after much toil and fiddling i think i found a way (I need to run some more tests to make sure it fully works) I'm not near my PS3 right now but i think what i did was have the randomizer always on, but have the outputs connected by AND switches, one from the randomizer, the other from what triggers it normally to happen. Lets say a random light turns on when you hit a button, the 2nd input for the AND would be the button (one shot)

2011-02-04 22:11:00 Author: JKthree Posts: 1125

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...I suspect that MM won't want to change this behaviour (or any other logic misfeatures) now that the game's been released. Since some published levels may rely on this behaviour in order to function correctly, changing it in a patch would break those levels. It's equally possible that this behaviour was deliberate if it was required for the story levels to function correctly. As much as I see your point, could MM not just add a new setting rather than just flat-out change the behaviour? Like a 'Always play same pattern' and 'Generate new pattern' option? That'd work for everyone.

2011-02-04 22:15:00 Author: Ostler5000 Posts: 1017

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Did you try changing the randomiser itself? Maybe it was just a glitch. If not, useless. The point of randomisers should be to randomise. Surely mm could easily program one that works as it should and not have lie about it. That's just the thing I don't understand, random number generators are very easy to program. Most are based off the system clock with some simple maths to come up with a number.

2011-02-04 22:27:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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Okay I had some time to do some more testing on it and it IS truly random. I took a picture of what i did for the logic http://i1.lbp.me/img/fl/da1f1b25505fd8a5876359a8dc9189e95d2dab7d.jpg This example was used for when it emitted to emit a random emitter from a button press (but regardless of how or what you do to trigger it the results are always random) The Blue wired logic is a 1 Counter so it only happens once and the 2 timers are set to 0.1 second. The randomizers on and off times are all set to 0.1. The reason why the timer to reset the counter is needed because the AND switch doesn't recoginize both the counter and randomzer fast enough (because of the randomizers 0.1 on and off)

2011-02-04 23:18:00 Author: JKthree Posts: 1125

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A notice that randomizer lost it's randomness after 1.02 patch of the beta in time when logic noticeably speed up. I think the reason why they did that is preference specially in network. Before that patch in online when you set timer to 0.1s randomizer became nonfunctional and output signal only once in few seconds, it worked perfectly only in offline. I believe the problem is seed sync randomizer leniency per player online, randomizer couldn't finalize randomization process on network in time of 0.1s and when it's once failed it starts over again (0.1s need to be 0.1s, if not it would be the problem that need to be solved too) which cause lack of signal. So they simplify with ready patterns and probably sync console with one pattern so they all know whats next and don't need to sync every randomization. Time randomization seems to work normal, but stop being random when they are emitted all at once, all the randomizes will start in same time

2011-02-05 04:17:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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As much as I see your point, could MM not just add a new setting rather than just flat-out change the behaviour? I'm sure they could, but I suspect in their list of priorities it's a pretty low one. Realistically, you'll have to put up with workarounds until they deem this worthy of being fixed - if ever. TBH I'd much prefer they fix the 160-hour bug, but I'm not optimistic - maybe in LBP3?

2011-02-05 04:43:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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Oh noes! So that means, you can not make a random entrance gate? (I know, I know, I also have several ideas for work arounds) but in essence you can't place several entrance gates, while the randomizer chooses which one is active to spawn the first player, it would always be the same gate, right? Would it work with the emitter trick?

2011-02-05 07:59:00 Author: Xario Posts: 238

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If emitted randomizers are seeded on creation, then why not use one just to seed your existing randomizer logic with a minimum of interconnection between the emitted and pre-existing logic? That is: - Have your "main" randomizer in the level, already running, with a toggle or something after it to keep it disconnected from whatever it controls. - Have an emitter set up to create a one-shot piece of holo with a microchip, containing a tag that will activate after a random interval. - When you need the logic to start (a player enters the room, or flips a switch), hit the emitter. - Have a sensor for the seed tag in your main logic, and have it cycle a selector or something to connect the main randomizer up with everything else and start the machinery running. In theory, voila! You may have the same pattern being run in your main randomizer every time the level starts, but by tapping into it at a random point you should have as many possible patterns for your fiendish death machine as there are steps in the randomizer's pattern, which should be more than enough to keep players guessing. (Apologies if someone already figured this out and I missed it)

2011-02-05 22:55:00 Author: Unknown User

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I just came across this 'bug' when testing out ideas to make a random level generator level. Each time I press 'Replay', it repeats the same sequence. This was even the case when the randomiser was emitted. Kind of annoying tbh.

2011-02-10 00:01:00 Author: ryryryan Posts: 3767

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Yeah randomizers are really quirky. Like for my slot machine level, even after I used emitted randomizers, the rarest combination (3 sackboys) kept showing up over and over. I was like ???? I can't be that lucky???? After some investigation I discovered that since all three randomizers were on the same chip, they were making the same choices. Also seems as you place connections from randomizer to an input each wire gets a number. Since I placed the first few connections for each randomizer in the same order, that is placed the sackboy connections first, they were all assigned the same number. So when each randomizer choose 1, they all choose sackboys. I later fixed this by having each randomizer on their own chip and using three emitters to emit them. Of course then I ran into the problem where it seems the signals carried on wires in emitted object don't seem to always fully activate. But that is another problem entirely

2011-02-10 09:52:00 Author: kemengjie Posts: 42

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I seem to remember that earlier on in the beta the randomiser was random, but around Patch 1.02 it changed, I think. I remember Slaeden-Bob talking about it somewhere... Yup I was onto this issue a day or two after patch 1.02 of the beta was live (the level I was building contained a randomiser, you see). I even created a beta level showing the glitch in action along with a forum thread and a report it to Mm, and was very disappointed to see the glitch still being in retail

2011-02-10 14:14:00 Author: Slaeden-Bob Posts: 605

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Wow... this properly sucks. Now in order to actually randomize something we need to use LBP1 methods? This is going to cause a headache for a lot of creators. The whole point of the randomizer is to give different values each time you play... this makes it worthless.

2011-02-10 16:09:00 Author: thor Posts: 388

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Wow... this properly sucks. Now in order to actually randomize something we need to use LBP1 methods? This is going to cause a headache for a lot of creators. The whole point of the randomizer is to give different values each time you play... this makes it worthless. Well you can always set randomizer to 0.0s (will randomize in simulation speed around 15Hz), AND gate (or place Nodes on microchip and use activation) all the outputs, connect them to selector and trigger gates/microchip with signal that you are sure it's gonna apper in random moment. This is how i made Tetris random, but for some reason this solution fails on high preference, people raport that it capable to random the same thing 15 times when thy play my tetris fast.

2011-02-10 18:43:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Mine in Doodle Jump seems to do the same thing over and over unless to leave the level some how. Weird.

2011-02-10 21:05:00 Author: kirbyman62 Posts: 1893

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I started working with Randomizers recently to try and make some neat new lighting patterns/designs, and started working on levels based around those patterns. Problem was, the randomizers only go through one solitary pattern. As said before, this totally defeats the purpose of a "randomizer", as the ending output consistently is not "random". All it is now is a pre-made timer. If I wanted a timer, I'd use the timer.

2011-02-12 05:11:00 Author: Dylanlip Posts: 18

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I guess its that way on purpose - to get each player same condition and making ranking fair. There should be some workarounds possible. Probably depends on the level itself. Maybe having the rnadomizer ON form form the start. But using the outpust (by and gates) only after some condition is met (player press 5 buttons etc). In this way, you will have the same pattern. But you will always start from differnt section. Or maybe using several randomizers placed on the sequenced with input changed to "speed scale" and changing the speed by some player actions? (hooking via controlinator receiver, selector and batteryes with differnt signal). So if player use left stick, it will gos 20%, if he press x, it spe up to 50% etc. So base on player action the randomizers will switch in "random" times = the final sequesnce should be very different each time. Insteed of sequencer you could also use series of timers, that would actually just switch between used randomizers, but keep all the others on. Resulting in dropping some output signal and causing even better randomness.

2011-02-12 15:40:00 Author: Agarwel Posts: 207

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I guess its that way on purpose - to get each player same condition and making ranking fair. Huh? the creator should decide, since you are the one who decides player condition as level designer. Looking how randomizer worked before beta 1.02 it seams that is more preference issue online then gameplay issue

2011-02-12 18:00:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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I guess its that way on purpose - to get each player same condition and making ranking fair. There should be some workarounds possible. Probably depends on the level itself. Maybe having the rnadomizer ON form form the start. But using the outpust (by and gates) only after some condition is met (player press 5 buttons etc). In this way, you will have the same pattern. But you will always start from differnt section. Or maybe using several randomizers placed on the sequenced with input changed to "speed scale" and changing the speed by some player actions? (hooking via controlinator receiver, selector and batteryes with differnt signal). So if player use left stick, it will gos 20%, if he press x, it spe up to 50% etc. So base on player action the randomizers will switch in "random" times = the final sequesnce should be very different each time. Insteed of sequencer you could also use series of timers, that would actually just switch between used randomizers, but keep all the others on. Resulting in dropping some output signal and causing even better randomness. The problem is that the Randomizer simply becomes another Sequencer, only with a pre-built sequence. If the beta problems with the original randomizer came from online issues, then it should be removed, and all current instances be replaced with a sequencer that includes it's currently (always) defined output sequence, as there would be no actual difference between the two. Until there is a fix to this problem, or until it is removed, there is no point in using the randomizer.

2011-02-12 20:45:00 Author: Dylanlip Posts: 18

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Did MM have a good record of fixing these types of issues in LBP 1?

2011-02-13 03:50:00 Author: Kraznoff Posts: 26

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I don't think the radomizer is broken really, it just seems to be seeding itself at the point of creation rather than grabbing a new seed dynamically each time it is loaded. It's not optimal, but it does serve the purpose of randomizing a sequence of events in your level one time. This is not uncommon in the world of LBP. I remember many times in LBP1 that my pistons and bolts would get out of sync if I wasn't very careful to pause and rewind after each incremental test. I think, if we looked under the hood (or bonnet if you prefer), we would see that a lot of items and behaviors are handled that way in LBP.

2011-02-13 07:21:00 Author: tdarb Posts: 689

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Okay I had some time to do some more testing on it and it IS truly random. I took a picture of what i did for the logic http://i1.lbp.me/img/fl/da1f1b25505fd8a5876359a8dc9189e95d2dab7d.jpg This example was used for when it emitted to emit a random emitter from a button press (but regardless of how or what you do to trigger it the results are always random) The Blue wired logic is a 1 Counter so it only happens once and the 2 timers are set to 0.1 second. The randomizers on and off times are all set to 0.1. The reason why the timer to reset the counter is needed because the AND switch doesn't recoginize both the counter and randomzer fast enough (because of the randomizers 0.1 on and off) thanks for this, works good

2011-02-17 09:58:00 Author: Unknown User

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