Archive: 12 posts

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Just when I think I've got things down I discover something else. First, I discover that some components don't pass on a player signal, as detailed here (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=46856-Important-Vs.-scoring-discovery-object-creation-method-affects-point-giver-target), which is important for versus levels, so I add a player color indicator to my Logic Probe (http://lbp.me/v/wqzn-q). Then, when working on my Logic Tutorials (http://lbp.me/v/w1f16r) I discover the Timer, when set to Forwards/Backwards, actually senses what kind of component it is connected to: if it's connected to almost anything, either a digital 0 or a digital -1 makes it count down. However, if it's connected directly to either a Controlinator analog stick or a Direction Combiner, a digital 0 makes it stay steady, and it needs a digital -1 to count down. Pass that same signal through an OR gate though and it's back to digital 0 meaning count down. I really hope there aren't more components that change behavior depending on what kind of component they're connected to like that, because testing all cases would really be a pain.

2011-02-01 23:35:00 Author: Balorn Posts: 92

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*paging RTM and Aye*

2011-02-01 23:42:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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That's ugly. I speculate too many beta players didn't realise they should have used the speed setting and reported a bug, and Mm decided to make it more "intuitive".

2011-02-02 11:40:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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I think F/B worked that way since beginning That's ugly. I speculate too many beta players didn't realise they should have used the speed setting and reported a bug, and Mm decided to make it more "intuitive". Well i don't see problem with that, if you ever combiner on timer it mean you want to control it's direction, controllinator might be a little more problem bot OR gate fix that

2011-02-03 04:02:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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if it's connected to almost anything, either a digital 0 or a digital -1 makes it count down. However, if it's connected directly to either a Controlinator analog stick or a Direction Combiner, a digital 0 makes it stay steady, and it needs a digital -1 to count down. That's actually normal. In LBP1 a wheel would spin forward or back with a two-way or any on/off switch, but hooking a 3way to it made it forward/neutral/back. It also worked with a speed setting but there was no dead zone on the 3way so it was impossible to get it to stop once it had started. Pass that same signal through an OR gate though and it's back to digital 0 meaning count down. Well that's kind of annoying. Does it happen that way if you send two 3way signals through an OR or is it only if one of them is an on/off?

2011-02-03 05:47:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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If you decide to use joystick left/right, up/down inputs into a timer, please head the following: There is a very strange anomaly when dealing with this setup. Here's how to see it for yourself: Create a controllinator and on the circuit board drop a timer and set the input for forwards/backwards and hook up the left/right output of one of the joysticks. If you get in the controllinator and press the stick to the right, the timer will start to fill. If you release the stick, the timer will stay where it is. This is as expected. Now, make a very small change - when hooking up the joystick to the timer, drop the wire on your circuit board to create a node, then hook the node's output to the timer. Should be the same, right? It isn't. Now when you press the stick to the right the timer fills up, but when you release the stick, it empties. ANY circuitry introduced between the joystick's left/right output results in the resting position of the stick to result in a NEGATIVE output value. To say the least this was driving me CRAZY! ...and still is. Note: Not sure how my post ended up in here - this was a standalone post. However, this is not an inappropriate place for it since it re-iterates what Balorn is saying.

2011-02-03 16:52:00 Author: Shanghaidilly Posts: 153

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There are workarounds if you know about this, but it's annoying that we have to think about this at all. To make a forwards/backwards timer always count down unless it gets a +1, pass the signal through a node, an OR gate, a non-inverted NOT, or anything else. To make it only count down with a negative signal, pass the signal through a direction splitter with its outputs connected to a direction combiner (+ to +, - to -), since combiner output is one of the two things that will make the timer behave like that.

2011-02-03 21:53:00 Author: Balorn Posts: 92

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Then, when working on my Logic Tutorials (http://lbp.me/v/w1f16r) I discover the Timer, when set to Forwards/Backwards, actually senses what kind of component it is connected to: if it's connected to almost anything, either a digital 0 or a digital -1 makes it count down. However, if it's connected directly to either a Controlinator analog stick or a Direction Combiner, a digital 0 makes it stay steady, and it needs a digital -1 to count down. Pass that same signal through an OR gate though and it's back to digital 0 meaning count down. I did a few more tests, and I'm guessing there's an additional signal being passed along a wire, so in addition to... Analog value (-100 thru +100) Digital value (-1, 0 or +1) Player color ...we have... Directional value (forwards, neutral, or backwards) ...and the definition of the latter signal depends on the component which produced it. Seems that what I'll call "three-way" components map like this... Digital -1 = Backwards Digital 0 = Neutral Digital +1 = Forwards ...and what I'll call "two-way" components map like this... Digital -1 = Backwards Digital 0 = Backwards Digital +1 = Forwards ...where the following are deemed to be "three-way"... Three-way Switch Controlinator analog stick outputs Controlinator D-pad outputs Direction Combiner ...and everything else is "two-way". I think what all these have in common is that they're the only devices naturally capable of producing the -1 digital value (with the somewhat notable exception of Batteries) - although that value can be passed on through digital electronics, it can only be sourced from these components. This signal only seems to be respected by devices which have a Forwards/Backwards input type, for Speed Scale, the analog value is used instead. As others have pointed it, it's actually consisent with the way in which Directional output worked in LBP1. Also note that passing a three-way signal wirelessly through a Tag/Sensor set to Signal Strength also converts it to a two-way signal. However, I'm relying on your logic probe being accurate to make these assertions. Upon inspecting the way in which the sign of your digital logic value is determined, I'm now wondering if the digital signal is actually truly digital (i.e. limited to 0 and 1) and the -1 is a misunderstanding, since you seem to be using the analog sign to determine it. I'm beginning to think that the four signal types which pass through a wire are actually... Analog value (-100 thru +100) - used for things like Speed Scale, Strength Scale, and Positional Digital value (0 or 1) - used for things like On/Off, Start/Stop, and rising edge used for things like One-Shot, Emit Once, Start Count Up Directional value (forwards, neutral, or backwards) - used by Forwards/Backwards only Player color - used by Player Color only ...and the one which is used by a particular component depends solely on its Input Action setting. If I'm right, then the values for these signals for a controlinator analog stick pushed all the way to the left are... Analog value: -100 Digital value: 1 Directional value: backwards Player color: as per the user in the controlinator

2011-02-05 07:13:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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Thank you Mm tutorials for making my perfectly prepared for this kind of discussion about complex logic. / sarcasm I'd like to help but for that I would even have to understand what's the problem. CURSE YOU NON-INFORMATIVE TUTORIALS!!!!

2011-02-05 07:54:00 Author: blizzard_cool Posts: 752

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However, I'm relying on your logic probe being accurate to make these assertions. Upon inspecting the way in which the sign of your digital logic value is determined, I'm now wondering if the digital signal is actually truly digital (i.e. limited to 0 and 1) and the -1 is a misunderstanding, since you seem to be using the analog sign to determine it. I'm beginning to think that the four signal types which pass through a wire are actually... Analog value (-100 thru +100) - used for things like Speed Scale, Strength Scale, and Positional Digital value (0 or 1) - used for things like On/Off, Start/Stop, and rising edge used for things like One-Shot, Emit Once, Start Count Up Directional value (forwards, neutral, or backwards) - used by Forwards/Backwards only Player color - used by Player Color only ...and the one which is used by a particular component depends solely on its Input Action setting. If I'm right, then the values for these signals for a controlinator analog stick pushed all the way to the left are... Analog value: -100 Digital value: 1 Directional value: backwards Player color: as per the user in the controlinator Interesting, and definitely something I plan on looking into when I get the chance, but I'm rather busy this weekend. Essentially, it looks like I need to find a way to quickly determine using logic if the digital 0 is neutral or negative. And now that I think on this, I remember rtm223 mentioning either in one of his logic blogs or one of the comments on it that a negative digital 0 does exist, but he didn't go into detail; I think that's essentially what we're dealing with here, or at least that's one way to think of it. However, I will say that my logic probe doesn't use the analog signal to determine the digital/direction component (it can detect negative analog mixed with positive direction just fine), even though it may not be obvious at first glance of the logic. I take advantage of the direction splitter, which splits analog and digital signals independently, and the selector, which ignores the analog part of the signal, to do so. I do need to work out a more accurate player color sensor, though, since what I stuck on my probe doesn't clear itself when it's no longer receiving a player color signal. I think. I don't yet fully understand how player color acts when passed through logic.

2011-02-05 14:42:00 Author: Balorn Posts: 92

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And now that I think on this, I remember rtm223 mentioning either in one of his logic blogs or one of the comments on it that a negative digital 0 does exist, but he didn't go into detail; I think that's essentially what we're dealing with here, or at least that's one way to think of it. Aha. Perhaps that's it instead. I'll have to go back and re-read those blogs. However, I will say that my logic probe doesn't use the analog signal to determine the digital/direction component (it can detect negative analog mixed with positive direction just fine), even though it may not be obvious at first glance of the logic. I haven't experimented that much with the direction splitter, but I probably should've tested the probe out in combination with your A/D combiner before jumping to this (now seemingly erroneous) conclusion. Since I haven't managed to create a signal which maps to a digital 1, but also maps to a directional backwards, there's no way to prove these are indepedent signals. I do need to work out a more accurate player color sensor, though, since what I stuck on my probe doesn't clear itself when it's no longer receiving a player color signal. I think. I don't yet fully understand how player color acts when passed through logic. From my own very brief experiments, the impression I get is that it's actually represented as an integer value between 1 and 4, which refers to the order in which the players joined the game, and each integer is mapped to the player's popit color for purposes of display. From a logic POV, when I ANDed two signals of digital 1, containing player color info, the result was the color of the lowest player number, and when I ORed the two signals, it picked the highest, e.g. given... Player 1: Red Player 2: Green Player 3: Blue Player 4: Yellow ...then Red AND Green = Red, and Red OR Green = Green. I didn't do much beyond that, as I couldn't think of any practical use for such logic. I'm somewhat surprised that your color info is failing to clear, since from my brief experiments, as soon as I removed the signals I was feeding into the hologram, it returned to its colorless state.

2011-02-05 18:49:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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Practical use? Sounds like this lets you properly discern and track individual players without dropping them in sackbots.

2011-02-05 21:09:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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