Archive: 11 posts

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Hello everyone, I've been perusing the forums since LBP2 came out and finally have a project idea to contribute! Introduction From the very first trailer for LBP2, I was always drawn to the idea of top-down movement, more specifically a Racing/Driving experience. After LBP2 came out I did some experimenting but ultimately wanted to know what everyone else was doing. After exploring tutorials and watching videos online on how to create a top-down car experience in LBP2, I felt unsatisfied with the quick and dirty "X is Go, Circle is 'Brake/Reverse,' Left Stick is Rotate." This prompted me to begin my quest for a better car and eventually a realistic top-down racer! Goals/Accomplishments Below is a sort of list that I have continually added to as idea or problems have come up. The items in green are things that I have already implemented and work (maybe not perfectly, but nothing a few tweaks won't fix). The items in red are what I haven't implemented and need help or advice on. Car/Vehicle Elimination of "Brake/Reverse" button. I've been able to map Acceleration, Brake and Reverse to R2, L2 and Triangle respectively without any interference or unwanted behavior from the input commands in any order. Pressing L2 simply decelerates the car to a stop, whether it's moving forwards or backwards. Stopping the car from turning (spinning) when it is not in motion, while having the car able to turn in a smaller radius at slower speeds; larger radius at higher speeds. I honestly, do not know how I was able to make this work. I went on some spontaneous logic creating roll and ended up with a microchip that allowed the turning strength to go from 0% to (MAX)% to (min)% as the car goes from stop to full speed. (MAX) and (min) are determined by two batteries. So they can be adjusted for different effects. Create realistic momentum and shifting centre of gravity. I would like to think I'm the only person that has thought of this and has been able to implement it, but that may be wishful thinking. In any case, I would like to hear how other creators have tackled this type of realism before I disclose how I've done it. E-Brake. I may have to manipulate the centre of gravity with this one, but again I would like to know your guys' thoughts on how this could be implemented! Faux-front wheels that turn. I was able to do this effectively in large scale, but it would be need to implement it in small scale. One question I have, is there a way to make the hologram material black and opaque? Different "traction/handling" on different "terrain". I don't want to have my race tracks walled all around the edges, but I also want to be able to configure this realistically so that if only part of the car is off the course, it is being affected accordingly. Fuel. Damage. Gameplay/Course MechanicsI have almost nothing right now for this. Maybe someone can advise me to a point of reference or just give a general idea of what I need to do to make this work well. Game titles and menu. Overall course time and lap times. Track selection. Car selection. "Outfit" selection. On Screen Display. Help with cameras. Multiplayer. I will add more to this list as it comes up in discussion or even if I or any of you have new ideas. The Work So Far I will be adding pictures of my work and discussing theories and ideas here as they come up!

2011-01-26 01:54:00 Author: Unknown User

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I love how your trying to break the mold of the typical top down racer currently in LBP2, please let me know when you finish it I will be dying to try your level out when finished, or heck if you need a tester, I'm here *wink *wink =P

2011-01-26 11:26:00 Author: cousi Posts: 28

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I've been working on basically all of those points you've got there in my own spare time, around my current project. It's annoying that movers on hologram attached to something, won't pull the something, that would make sorting the handling out a million times easier What I will say is that you should definitely make sure the end result is actually fun, unless of course your end goal is merely a technical demo/ proof of concept. If you want to be an actual level, then a lot of these features will either go unnoticed or cause complaints. With regards to the cool page mentality, people can complain over the tiniest thing, and in the beta people were very split on Sack Turismo as to whether the handling was 'OMG PERFECT' or 'CARS TOO HEAVY', as they didn't like the idea of following a racing line or slowing down to corner

2011-01-26 12:52:00 Author: Asbestos101 Posts: 1114

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@cousi Not looking for testers quite yet, but I'll certainly keep you in mind. @Asbestos101 I definitely want to make this something fun! Either by making just a fun, realistic racing game that appeals to people who want to race in LBP2 or I at least want to come out of this project with realistic driving physics that can be applied to the thousands of top-down adventure/rpg/shooter/etc! I'm absolutely going to have to start with publishing a demo/beta level once I have the actual car physics tuned to my liking, just so I can gauge the mass appeal in the LBP2 community and then from there I can decide what I want to do with my work.

2011-01-26 15:46:00 Author: Unknown User

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Interesting. I've been tinkering with this idea as well, 'cuz I wasn't too impressed with most of the karts in the beta, especially the ones that could "sit and spin." Elimination of "Brake/Reverse" button. I used a rocket mover with high (well, not high, but higher... like 20% or so) accel/decel but no movement speed for my brake. I'm curious what you used. I've been able to map Acceleration, Brake and Reverse to R2, L2 and Triangle respectively without any interference or unwanted behavior from the input commands in any order. Pressing L2 simply decelerates the car to a stop, whether it's moving forwards or backwards. I haven't gotten as far as adding in reverse yet, 'cuz I'm still trying to perfect the physics/handling, but it's on my to-do list. Stopping the car from turning (spinning) when it is not in motion, while having the car able to turn in a smaller radius at slower speeds; larger radius at higher speeds. This part is a huge pain and I'd love to know how you did it. My method is a "speedometer" I rigged up that ties into a rotational mover with medium-low strength (around 20% or so. The speedometer ties into the rotator which is set to strength scale, so the faster the car goes, the stronger the rotator is (the rotator is set to zero rotate speed, so it makes it resist rotation). Create realistic momentum and shifting centre of gravity. I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Transferring grip from the front wheels to the back ones and so on? E-Brake. My solution to this one is a bit weird. I've got a circle of theck material loosely bolted under the back end of the car, with a rocket mover and a rocket rotator. When the e-brake is applied, the car's rotator that reduces spin/steering is turned off, and the rocket mover on the circle is turned on so that the back end swings in whichever direction it's moving. It's not quite perfect yet and I'm still tinkering with it, but it makes for some pretty cool power slides. Different "traction/handling" I haven't started messing with this yet. Once I'm satisfied with the handling on paved roads, I'll start to tinker with the settings for other terrain. I imagine it will just be a matter of duplicating microchips, giving them different values, and using a selector to switch which microchip is on at any given time. For example, on wet roads, I might lower the strength of the rotation resistor and steering mover, and leave the e-brake mover on all the time, but not as strong as when the e-brake is pushed. Fuel. Damage These should be relatively easy. Fuel can just be a timer and you can change how fast it drains based on what the player is doing. I've never played a racing game with a fuel guage, so I'm not sure how driving style impacts fuel usage. The trick with damage is going to be figuring out how to measure the strength of an impact so that damage is more realistic. You don't want a slight bump/scrape to do as much damage as a full speed head-on collision. Help with cameras. Personally, I plan to use the local space setting so it's more like you're driving an actual car.... if Mm ever gets around to fixing it, that is. In the early beta, it worked exactly like it was supposed to, but after one of the patches, it started rotating backwards from what it should do and that bug followed it into the retail game. I have kind of a weird way of making my car work. I've got a thack block for the body, and two thin blocks at the front and back ends. Each of the blocks use rocket movers of varying strength for gas and brakes. As I said, my brakes are movers with decel turned up a bit but no movement speed, and the one on the front end is stronger than the one on the back ('cuz your braking power comes from your front wheels). In addition to the thack and thin blocks, I've got two theck wheels bolted underneath the body: one for the e-brake like I mentioned and one for steering. I'm not too happy with my steering system atm (rotating the wheel in exactly the right way is proving difficult, so my steering is a bit sluggish), and I'm tinkering with other ways of doing it. If I can solve the steering problem, I'll have a car that I'm pretty happy with.

2011-01-26 17:03:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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Elimination of "Brake/Reverse" button. [LIST] I've been able to map Acceleration, Brake and Reverse to R2, L2 and Triangle respectively without any interference or unwanted behavior from the input commands in any order. Pressing L2 simply decelerates the car to a stop, whether it's moving forwards or backwards. To be honest, I prefer racing games where brake is reverse, simply because it means less buttons, which is ALWAYS a good thing. It may not be as realistic but it works better, befcause you're (probably) never going to want to complete stop unless you want to reverse, and slowing down while reversing is as easy as stopping reversing. I think if you made L2 slow the car down to a stop (and work like an actual brake), and THEN start reversing with the same button it would be better.

2011-01-26 17:51:00 Author: Nuclearfish Posts: 927

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Having made a racing league in the beta I can input a couple of points... however you seem to be focusing on the realistic side of things whereas my racers were anything but realistic. Something which I concentrated on was AI opponents so individuals could play the game and it would still be competitive. This is something to really consider if you want to make the level more fun. As for cars... make sure the handling isn't too sharp. Also use a 'local' camera as I found a lot of people seem to struggle turning when the car was going down the screen for a zoomed out shot. Damage will be really hard to realistically model, but the use of black smoke after a certain number of knocks seemed to be quite effective. Also a word of warning... the game can lag really badly if you have a lot of complex cars on the screen at once!

2011-01-26 18:03:00 Author: ladylyn1 Posts: 836

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Fuel. Fuel can just be a timer and you can change how fast it drains based on what the player is doing. I've never played a racing game with a fuel guage, so I'm not sure how driving style impacts fuel usage. I think it's actually turned around a little. The amount of fuel you are carrying can influence your driving style. I don't know how realistic you want to go (Reading this thread i think pretty realistic), but balancing between alot of fuel = less tanking, but heavier weight; and low fuel = alot of tanking, but lower weight is something they do in real races.

2011-01-26 20:56:00 Author: TjoxYorro Posts: 220

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@Sehven Eliminating "Brake/Reverse" In order to eliminate the "Brake/Reverse" button in favour of individual Go/Stop/Reverse buttons, I had to do is... Note: I've only taken one University level introductory computer science class but I would like to think that my grasp of logic is pretty good. If things do not make sense, or if I am going about my logic in a redundant manner please let me know! 29750 (1) is the two movers that you will need. The top one is for movement forward, the bottom one is for movement backward. The values are set at something like 40 and 10 respectively, but I play with these sometimes and I'm sure it will change. (2) is the two timers that are speed scales which are there for two reasons: to adjust the acceleration (1 second timer means you achieve maximum speed in 1 second, although I have modified this theory. See 4,5,6,7.) to communicate "speed" to other mechanics of the car (steering, etc.) (3) are the two signal combiners became my major breakthrough on how to make this whole logic work. Basically, the signal combiner accepts three different signals. The positive signal is always an acceleration signal from R2/Accelerate (4) or Triangle/Reverse (5). The negative signal is coming off of either L2/Brake (6) or drag/coast (7) which are connected with an OR gate. It is only ever receiving one of these signals at a time. (4, 5, 6, 7*) are the four components that make up the accelerating and decelerating of the car. As you can see, they are all batteries connected to an AND gate. These batteries are unique from one another so that the Speed Scales (2) are affected at different speeds from different inputs. To simulate how a real car handles (I'm no physics major so my work is just "guess work"): brake is going to be the strongest, so I set the brake battery (6) to 100% so I know my car will completely stop in 1 second (if that's what my speed scale is set to) accelerate (4) will be the next strongest at about 50% - 70% reverse (5) can be up to as strong as accelerate but I don't want to risk overlooking a dependency down the road which makes reversing better than accelerating (see 18 Wheels of Steel glitches) drag or 'coasting' (7) is the most important, but the weakest. this is applied to the negative input of the signal combiners when there are no other inputs active (L2/R2/Triangle not being pressed). I usually set this around 30% - 40%. So with all of these, you can see they work together with the Speed Scale. You first start with how fast you want your car to stop, and set your speed scale to that number (1 - 2 seconds) and the brake battery to 100%. Now you set accelerate/reverse and drag appropriate to your stop-rate and your overall car speed! Viola! *I had to draw the battery and leads for drag (7) since I accidentally had it hidden when I took the picture. (8) includes all of the logic that's required so that multiple button presses don't interfere with one another. R2 and Triangle can never be pressed together and simply just make the car coast naturally to a stop however R2 and Triangle can work with L2 to slow your car down faster than coasting but slower than braking without any acceleration. There is also an impact thingy which I haven't quite finalized. Right now it just resets the speed scales. It works pretty well depending on the bounciness of the car, anti-grav dampening and momentum (i'll get into that later). Turning Resistance I don't quite understand the logic that I used to make this work (still need to analyze or upgrade it), but it is definitely similar to the speedometer method that you described, the hard part is just figuring out to make it not spin at all while the car is stationary, but then have full turning power (small radius) when it is just accelerating. I worked off of my Speed Scales (2) described above and have that signal being manipulated a couple ways with some batteries and other stuff... quite confusing, I tend to just build my logic as I go unless I write it down on paper... and that day, I didn't do that Everything Else Yes, my momentum/shifting centre of gravity does simulate the transferring of grip independantly across all of the "wheels" (my car has no wheels! It's just a rectangle!). Your idea for E-brake is quite interesting!! When I couldn't scale down "real" moving tires, I thought of doing a bolted circle for my turning physics, but opted to go for the simple approach of just working with a rectangle (kind of). I would like to go back to the "bolted" turning technique but I'm not too too sure yet. Thanks for your input!! @Nuclearfish I actually thought of that idea after the fact but in the case of my car design and how my accelerating/decelerating works, you could adjust the strength of reverse and use that instead if you wanted. But since I feel that you should be able to brake faster than you accelerate I wouldn't want a situation where reversing makes me go faster than going forwards (which is what I've seen happen on LBP2 and like above... 18 Wheels of Steel)! @ladylyn1 & TjoxYorro Ultimately this is LBP and although I want realistic top-down vehicle handling, it is still going to be cardboard and sponges. Things like damage and fuel consumption will simply be fun gameplay mechanics and not necessarily "realistic." Remember I am designing this car for my own game, but also eventually as a item that other people can work off of in their own projects, so the more variables I can offer the more helpful it will be!

2011-01-27 03:41:00 Author: Unknown User

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Holy Schmidt, this is impressive and very ambitious. As far as gameplay mechanics go, how many tracks are you planning to have? Will it be multiplayer? As far as a single player experience goes, perhaps you could go for a sort of branching progression. For example, you could have only 1 track available to race on to begin with then after coming 1st on that track you unlock 2 new tracks. Then coming first on those 2 tracks unlocks 2 more etc. You could even have secret tracks! You could have it so the player has to get a very good time on every track in the game to unlock a super secret special bonus track.

2011-01-27 13:42:00 Author: UmJammerSully Posts: 1097

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@UmJammerSully I don't quite have too many long term goals as far as actual track/level design at the moment. One thing that I had thought of yesterday was to create a "Driver's License" level in which the player has to go over the handling of the car and such to unlock access to the first string of race events. The "test" wouldn't be hard at all, just a quick tutorial for how the controls and maybe a unique HUD display that outlines how the car is handling (similar to GT, Forza, etc.).

2011-01-27 16:05:00 Author: Unknown User

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