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The death penalty.

Archive: 104 posts

I was viewing the discovery channel, and I was wondering...

What is your opinion on the death penalty?

Good? Bad? Humane? Inhumane? Only good if humane? What is humane?

These are the kinds of things I wish to discuss.

(By the way, if there are replies, I don't want a war, because then no good can come from this thread.)		2011-01-12 05:24:00

Author:
tomodon246
Posts: 624

I think it's pretty deadly.2011-01-12 06:35:00

Author:
Unknown User

Here in the UK we don't have the death penalty but my opinion on this matter is aren't we all human?2011-01-12 07:46:00

Author:
The age of LOLZ
Posts: 229

Sometimes, death is too easy of a punishment.2011-01-12 08:00:00

Author:
Mr_T-Shirt
Posts: 1477

The death penalty is good, but it should be made worse. Someone murders another person, inflict the same death on them as they did on someone else. Make it slow. Make them suffer.

I approve of the death penalty, though only if there is irrefutable evidence that that person did it. People who are wrongly executed would be bad.		2011-01-12 09:07:00

Author:
Unknown User

The death penalty is good, but it should be made worse. Someone murders another person, inflict the same death on them as they did on someone else. Make it slow. Make them suffer.

I approve of the death penalty, though only if there is irrefutable evidence that that person did it. People who are wrongly executed would be bad.

2 wrongs do not a right make.
We do not live in biblical times of the old testament. an eye for eye leaves everyone blind.

Personally, I don't see the death penalty as ever being acceptable. If the state says that murder is wrong, then state sactioned murder is surely also wrong.

Then there are the cases of innocent people put to death, and post-humously found to be innocent. I can;t imagine a much worse fate than being condemned to death for a crime you didn't commit.
I would rather 100 guilty men were allowed to live than risk putting a single innocent person to death.

The death penalty is barbaric and has no place in a modern civilised society.		2011-01-12 12:37:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

2 wrongs do not a right make.
We do not live in biblical times of the old testament. an eye for eye leaves everyone blind.

Personally, I don't see the death penalty as ever being acceptable. If the state says that murder is wrong, then state sactioned murder is surely also wrong.

Then there are the cases of innocent people put to death, and post-humously found to be innocent. I can;t imagine a much worse fate than being condemned to death for a crime you didn't commit.
I would rather 100 guilty men were allowed to live than risk putting a single innocent person to death.

The death penalty is barbaric and has no place in a modern civilised society.

Nope. You kill someone, you deserve to suffer.

Anyway, we ened space in the prisons, why not just kill a few of them? If they have done something bad enough, then they'll be getting what is coming to them.		2011-01-12 12:43:00

Author:
Unknown User

And what of the innocent person put to death.. do they deserve it too?2011-01-12 12:50:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

The death penalty is barbaric and has no place in a modern civilised society.

The problem is there are humans that are barbaric and have not demonstrated any ability to behave in a civilized society. ...but then mentioning that, you might complain about too many people in prisons.

Then there is that meat thing... is that totally barbaric too? We condemn cows to death for our pleasure of eating tasty burgers. Is that next? Just curious to see if I need to stock up my freezer. 		2011-01-12 13:05:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

2 wrongs do not a right make.
We do not live in biblical times of the old testament. an eye for eye leaves everyone blind.

Personally, I don't see the death penalty as ever being acceptable. If the state says that murder is wrong, then state sactioned murder is surely also wrong.

Then there are the cases of innocent people put to death, and post-humously found to be innocent. I can;t imagine a much worse fate than being condemned to death for a crime you didn't commit.
I would rather 100 guilty men were allowed to live than risk putting a single innocent person to death.

The death penalty is barbaric and has no place in a modern civilised society.

I argue against the death penalty quite a bit, at this is usually one of the points in my argument, and I'm just not going to re-type that.

To add to your point, the death penalty is just giving them an escape. I remember reading awhile ago that some criminal had killed a family of people, and they sentenced him to death, and he smiled. The reality is, putting someone to death just lets them out. It's a lot worse for them if they are bored to death by being in prison for the rest of their life.

I have more to say, but I have to go to school. I'll talk more later.		2011-01-12 13:13:00

Author:
Jaslow
Posts: 775

Not only is it barbaric, but (In America at least) it is levied disproportionatly against men. And is also levied disproportionatly when the perpetrator was black and the victim was white.
That isn't "justice" by anyones standards.

Rotting in prison, contemplating on their deed and paying for it everyday for the rest of their lives is a far worse punishment than a quick painless death.


And I believe there will come a point in the future (when pressure on land has become such that it is no longer economically viable to devote such an amount of land to animal farming) that we will all become vegetarian.
We could solve so many problems in the world - such as obesity, hunger and global warming if we ate the food we give to the animals - instead of eating the animals themselves. - but that's a different argument alltogether 		2011-01-12 13:17:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

And I believe there will come a point in the future (when pressure on land has become such that it is no longer economically viable to devote such an amount of land to animal farming) that we will all become vegetarian.
We could solve so many problems in the world - such as obesity, hunger and global warming if we ate the food we give to the animals - instead of eating the animals themselves. - but that's a different argument alltogether

If we can do other things on multiple levels like car parks i'm sure we can work out how to do it with farming if we need to.		2011-01-12 13:21:00

Author:
Rabid-Coot
Posts: 6728

I think the death penalty should be viewed as a preventative measure rather than a punishment. It should be reserved for people who are just so detrimental to society their very existence is harmful to those around them, even in prison, threatening the lives of others peacefully carrying out their sentence.

If done right it should almost never happen, but if it does, it should be for that reason. Murder in the name of punishment or revenge is wrong.		2011-01-12 13:33:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

If we can do other things on multiple levels like car parks i'm sure we can work out how to do it with farming if we need to.

You have no idea of the pressure human kind is going to put on the planet in this century if we continue with our current levels of consumption. It is unsustainable.
We will need 4 or 5 planet earths to sustain us, if we want to continue eating burgers.
Or we could all become vegetarian and save the planet.
Do you love burgers that much that you are willing to sacrifice the earth for future generations?

(oh yeah, and the death penalty is wrong!) 		2011-01-12 13:33:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

Not only is it barbaric, but (In America at least) it is levied disproportionatly against men. And is also levied disproportionatly when the perpetrator was black and the victim was white.
That isn't "justice" by anyones standards.

OHHhhh!!! So if given, capitol punishment should be more proportional!? Maybe it should work on a curve and thus balance the statistics!

{still munching on my bacon sandwich from free roam pork} 		2011-01-12 13:40:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

Do you love burgers that much that you are willing to sacrifice the earth for future generations?


Yes .		2011-01-12 13:50:00

Author:
Rabid-Coot
Posts: 6728

I don't really agree with the death penalty, partly because you can't be absolutely certain whether the person in question is guilty or not.

Say if a teenager commits murder, a parent could come forward and admit to the crime instead, out of love for their child.		2011-01-12 14:00:00

Author:
Rhys125
Posts: 841

Since the dawn of our pathetic History, we killed and murdered each other for no Reason.
The Church with it's Crusades, my own Country in WW2. Those are just 2 Examples of how Stupid we are.
Spreading all over the Planet, destroying anything without taking any Responsibility.
People killed each other for a Piece of Land, for Money, for Religion or whatever.

It doesn't matter for what Reason someone murders another Person.
Hatred, Jealousy ore even the political sanctioned Death Sentence. At the End it'll stay the Same...Murder.
Wrong in all Ways.
But as long as Humans are crawling on this Earth, it will never End.

Ha...we'll just think of new, creative and more effective Ways to do it.		2011-01-12 14:16:00

Author:
DeKay1980
Posts: 183

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAOLOGGftTY

More importantly.

Anyway, support the death penalty.		2011-01-12 14:25:00

Author:
Unknown User

OHHhhh!!! So if given, capitol punishment should be more proportional!? Maybe it should work on a curve and thus balance the statistics!

{still munching on my bacon sandwich from free roam pork}

No, Capital Punishmnet should never be administered.
Say this guy that shot that senator and killed 6 people.
How does his one death by lethal injection (or what ever's your poison) balance the death of those 6 people? It doesn't.

Killing him won't bring any of them back... and the death sentance gives him an "early release" from prison.		2011-01-12 14:28:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

I think the death penalty should be viewed as a preventative measure rather than a punishment. It should be reserved for people who are just so detrimental to society their very existence is harmful to those around them, even in prison, threatening the lives of others peacefully carrying out their sentence.

If done right it should almost never happen, but if it does, it should be for that reason. Murder in the name of punishment or revenge is wrong.

What about the ones with psychological disorders? Some are a danger to themselves and others.

Since we are talking about a touchy subject here, aka "The Death Penalty", I would like to state my opinion on it.

Philosophy is a hobby of mine and I have thought long and hard about the problems of TDP.

Like Jaslow said about the killer, some see it as an easy escape. Though, arguably, others in prison see it as a fear. Even some of those that have killed.

First of all, there is no way to humanely kill a person or thing. To kill something is barbaric in nature. As you can see I do agree with it being very barbaric, but to me, torture is worst then death. Well to some. Since it's arguable on how TDP will affect certain people, there really can't be a straight forward answer to these questions.

As the fish sees the water as its home, we see the land as ours. Too many different thoughts on TDP.

A rebuttal, though could be that, even though it is barbaric, these people with their 100 page rap-sheet are a menace to society. We need to get rid of them somehow:
- Prison... no, they could get full.
- TDP... no, it's too inhumane.
- Torture... also, too inhumane.
- Exile... where are we going to exile them to?
There is no winning.

Technically though, the most humane way to deal with a person is to separate them from people. A world of their own, a kind of purgatory. They'll have everything they need. Food, shelter, air... To any human psyche, this is also torture. At first when you read this you think hmm, that's a good idea. (Let's ignore the fact that this will present the same issues as crowded prisons, and imagine yourself in this place) There have been studies where people that have had no contact with another was very scarring, and caused many psychological problems, some even going mad and killing their selves.


I'm sure there are those that don't agree with me with this, but I would love to see you prove me wrong. Honestly, I would love to see you prove me wrong. Unlike some, I enjoy being proven wrong when it comes to serious matters like this. No sarcasm here.
__________________________________________________


As for the vegan thing. It is no different than meat. We still need the land for agriculture, processing plants, and our people. Not to mention if we use plants as fuel, share them with the wildlife, and we eat it, there is just not enough resources to supplement the different species. Although plants are renewable, we can't get the resources when ever we want. And what about population control? I'm no animal nut, but aren't there animals out there that reproduce quickly? And even if that number is small, cows, horses, chickens, rabbits, deer, and all other farm animals will be free to roam.		2011-01-12 14:30:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

Humans respect life which is probably the reason why killing is a crime. Punishing someone to death for ending a life makes no sense because that shows that you don't value human life so why would you punish them for something you don't even value? If everyone killed someone because they wronged them wouldn't we all be dead? But for every every argument there are positives and negatives so idk...2011-01-12 14:36:00

Author:
austimerr
Posts: 385

Technically though, the most humane way to deal with a person is to separate them from people. A world of their own, a kind of purgatory. They'll have everything they need. Food, shelter, air...

That is called prison. Either way, the goal is to remove the defective element from society. We are already humane enough to give them a chance to redeem themselves. For those that cannot be assimilated into society, there is confinement to prison and mental institutions.

It's interesting how the vegan thing popped up, it is slightly related. Personally, I feel if the world was vegan we'd all starve to death and destroy the planet; being vegan is a luxary. The majority of the world is hungry and scrambles to find anything to eat, so taking a moral highground for being vegan is silly. As stated, we still use up the land's resources - even more so. The production of animal based food and clothing is far easier on the environment than their synthetic counterparts. Synthetic clothing requires many factories, which all require the destruction of entire ecosystems, to produce. Not to mention neither the product nor the production waste is biodegradable, ending up as plaque for the planet.

So in short, there is no moral highground when it comes to survival. Veganism and similar mentalities are things we invented to make ourselves feel less guilty. I guarantee, any hardcore pacifist vegan WILL kill and eat an animal if he or she is hungry enough, and will swing anything he or she can find at an assailant if in a life threatening situation. It's the most fundamental trait of any animal.

As stated in another thread "But some methods of attack are controllable in intensity" ... Bee Ess. When your life is in danger, you don't have time to hesitate and make a conscious decision of minimizing force - all you will think about is stopping the bad guy. That applies directly to the death "penalty" which I said, I feel is more of a preventative measure, because some people are just a disease. Of course if done right the way I want, it should almost never happen, and definitely not on the first offense.

In a perfect world we'd have ways to stop people from being harmful society 100% of the time without having to kill them. Our world is not perfect, and the only thing that matters is survival.		2011-01-12 14:45:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

Humans respect life which is probably the reason why killing is a crime. Punishing someone to death for ending a life makes no sense because that shows that you don't value human life so why would you punish them for something you don't even value? If everyone killed someone because they wronged them wouldn't we all be dead? But for every every argument there are positives and negatives so idk...

Just because someone kills someone else doesn't mean they always don't value life. They just don't value life at that time. A sort of double standard.

There is no possible way to answer the question to kill or not to kill. UNLESS, we as a race agree on a decision. But seeing as how we are humans, that's impossible.


That is called prison. Either way, the goal is to remove the defective element from society. We are already humane enough to give them a chance to redeem themselves. For those that cannot be assimilated into society, there is confinement to prison and mental institutions.

Technically that isn't a prison. You are still around others in prison. Then you have murders in prisons, shanks and what-not.

So what your saying Foofles, is that we should only kill when we need to? I hate to say this, but that's impossible. (I think) Can you be more specific?		2011-01-12 14:49:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

If every offense carried the death penalty I think society would start to be polite very quickly. 2011-01-12 14:53:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

But America's prison population is out of control... due to a combination of factors.
And the death penalty is not applied equally, but disproportionalty. And it doesn't prevent any crime... America still has some of the highest murder rates in the world.

Also, think of the company you keep of other "backwards" nations that also have the death penalty. "You can tell a lot about a person by the company they keep". In Europe, if you want to join the European Union, you must abolish the death penalty in order to be allowed in.

Eventually all societies will evolve and progress to be more enlightened, slowly but surely Countries all over the world are realising that the death penalty is wrong. It's only a matter of time before you realise that the death penalty is wrong.

The UK 'used' to have the death penalty... then we progressed as a society and abolished it. 		2011-01-12 15:00:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

But then you have accidents and probable cause. I do agree on the polite thing though. If only it was that simple. T.T

Well, we know it's wrong, just should it be used. Just because we know something's bad doesn't mean we shouldn't use it. We need guns for robberies.		2011-01-12 15:01:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

One thing though to remember is there is no such thing as "In America', there are very few national policies regarding crime and punishment.

There is no death penalty where I live, for example. And I'm no fan of the dictatorships that America has aided in the past. They were just business arrangements, not reflections of agreements in ideals, but still bad business arrangements nonetheless and now we're tangling it further trying to clean up the mess.

To be honest I think that's the main thing people in other countries need to realize about America, that everything is so varied here you can't just slap anything across the country. For example you say blacks are kept under punishment and in poverty, but where I live, there are plenty of minority business owners and millionaires. Not everywhere in America is the paradise of scared white people that it's made out to be, and I think if you truly wanted to you could learn more to understand the laws and cultures in America and I think you'll see it's not such a bad place at all.

And yes, only kill when you need to - for food or defense of life. What could be simpler? It's something every animal is programmed to do.		2011-01-12 15:05:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

We need guns for robberies.

Not always, a hand in a poket has worked several times.		2011-01-12 15:07:00

Author:
Rabid-Coot
Posts: 6728

YAy it's guns in every thread week

But more on topic, one reason the prisons are so crowded is because in some areas people are imprisoned for very minor offenses. Prison should be reserved for people who cannot be in society.

And as far as isolating from people... solitary confinement in the prisons, we run out of deserted islands eventually. 		2011-01-12 15:11:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

I'm not about to start tempering my rants by adding asterixes where applicable. That would totally ruin my flow.
It's roughly 35 states in America that have the death penalty - that is a majority of states. America is a democracy, so "Majority Rules";

Therefore "America Has The Death Penalty";

I know America isn't "all bad" - but it isn't "All Good" either 		2011-01-12 15:13:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

No, Capital Punishmnet should never be administered.
Say this guy that shot that senator and killed 6 people.
How does his one death by lethal injection (or what ever's your poison) balance the death of those 6 people? It doesn't.

Killing him won't bring any of them back... and the death sentance gives him an "early release" from prison.

True.. it doesn't bring any back. However it is the way the justice system works in this country. If found guilty that sentence will be determined and administered by the laws of that state. It's up to them to choose death or life in prison.

However I am curious why you mention a death sentence is an early release! ...I thought you felt we had too many in our prisons in the first place! lol 		2011-01-12 15:19:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

No form of punishment will ever bring back the people that someone killed. That's why it's called punishment, it's a consequence for their actions.

America's design is understandably alien to people in other countries. We're designed to be a federation of independent republics, with the states and localities having the majority of direct influence over people. The federal government is meant to have limited power by design.

This is why people are against nationalizing things, it's not because they fear the "socialism" buzzword, but because the power would lie in the federal government, rather than being focused in localities.		2011-01-12 15:27:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

Prison is not a nice place... despite what some right-wingers claim about "liberal prisons", where they are just sitting with their feet up watching telly all day.

There are too many people in American prisons because of Idiotic laws like the 3 Strikes ruling... and also for criminalising recreational drug users who's only crime is to be caught with a controlled substance.

The solution to overcrowding in prisons isn't a mass cull!!

You need to address the inequality and poverty that gets people into a cycle of crime... but America isn't big on rehabilitation is it?
I think this stems from the overtly religious nature of America... (I realise I need an asterix here but can't be bothered ) Their motto is "In God We Trust"; Americans believe in the concept of good and evil... they believe that some people are just "inherently evil" and have no hope of redemption (which is strange considering it was founded on the christian principles, which include forgiveness and "love thine enemy").

That's why they think the death penalty works... they believe they are getting their "just rewards" in hell.
When in fact you have ended their suffering. There is no such place as heaven or hell.

Just my 2p 		2011-01-12 15:33:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

People who would be eligible for the death penalty don't deserve their lives anyway. They are miserable wastes of space, they don't deserve anything. I'd happily watch them all burn slowly.

For example, the guy in the news at the moment, who's name I forgot, the one who killed like6 but not the person he was trying to kill. He doesn't deserve a life. I'd happily see him die.		2011-01-12 15:37:00

Author:
Unknown User

People who would be eligible for the death penalty don't deserve their lives anyway. They are miserable wastes of space, they don't deserve anything. I'd happily watch them all burn slowly.

For example, the guy in the news at the moment, who's name I forgot, the one who killed like6 but not the person he was trying to kill. He doesn't deserve a life. I'd happily see him die.

I'm sure that he would feel the same about you?

And none of you have addressed the matter of innocents being put to death.
Surely that alone is reason enough to abolish it?		2011-01-12 15:42:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

I'm sure that he would feel the same about you?

And none of you have addressed the matter of innocents being put to death.
Surely that alone is reason enough to abolish it?

I said a few times that it should be reserved for people who are a constant danger to others, even in prison. Not as a punishment for some arbitrary number of crimes. It's hard to feign innocence with consistent behavior. And also like I said, if done right it should almost never happen.		2011-01-12 15:45:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

But like someone else said... that kind of behaviour would indicate some sort of mental issue that would need to be addressed.
They need help, not punishment.

it seems that this idea of "Good & Evil" really is prevelant in American society.

Here we don't think of anyone as inherently good or inherently evil... some can commit an evil act, but there is always the hope of rehabilitation... we don't just give up on people here and condemn them to death		2011-01-12 15:58:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

If every offense carried the death penalty I think society would start to be polite very quickly.

Funny story, at home here me and my mum have a "keep-up-cleaning-your-room-or-receive-death-penalty" deal... I am against death penalty 		2011-01-12 16:06:00

Author:
moonwire
Posts: 1627

I also believe everyone should be allowed the opportunity to redeem themselves, but you can't help people that won't help themselves by actually trying.

I said that mental institutions are one way to remove someone from society, if they are honestly insane. But not everything is a mental illness, some people are just bad. I hate to break it to you, but that's the way it is. It's cute and endearing how much compassion people have, or at least say they have, for their fellow man. Including the fellow man that causes harm to others. It's very easy to chirp peace and love from the ivory tower, but when the schitt hits the fans and you're in the way, it's different.

In general, cries for excessive "peace" seem to me to be nothing more than a vain facade for covering guilt and apathy.		2011-01-12 16:07:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

But like someone else said... that kind of behaviour would indicate some sort of mental issue that would need to be addressed.
They need help, not punishment.

it seems that this idea of "Good & Evil" really is prevelant in American society.

Here we don't think of anyone as inherently good or inherently evil... some can commit an evil act, but there is always the hope of rehabilitation... we don't just give up on people here and condemn them to death
Was Hitler hopeless? Could we have ever made him a safe part of society? How about that rehabilitated murder/rapist that got released and found someones daughter/little sister and relapsed? Murder seems arrogant and wrong, The death penalty is murder, but what do we do with these questionably "Evil" people. We need one of those Phantom Zones to banish people to.		2011-01-12 16:10:00

Author:
EinRobot
Posts: 739

And none of you have addressed the matter of innocents being put to death.
Surely that alone is reason enough to abolish it?

I didn't know we were on trial and don't call me Shirley. lol

To me the question of death penalty is simply a matter of opinion and can be argued forever. Whether you believe it to be right or wrong it is still our opinion. Your idea of a perfect world is one where you would see no death penalty. In my perfect world, no innocents would be put to death nor arrested in the first place. Heck.. I would love if there were no crime ever, but I don't see that happening this year.

In the case of Jared Loughner, it is currently up to the state of Arizona if he lives or dies. Some countries would just as soon behead him and be done with it, so I don't feel we are that off the chart of humanity. 		2011-01-12 16:10:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

To me the question of _____ is simply a matter of opinion and can be argued forever.

Just fill in the blank and you have political discussion. I think when it comes down to it, there are reasons we have borders, because we all have different ways of life. I just wish people would understand the USA isn't the hell on Earth assorted "nonbiased" news sources make it out to be.		2011-01-12 16:18:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

It depends where you go in America.

As you've pointed out.. America is a land of contrasts.

It's got freedom and democracy - but has the highest emprisoned population on earth and is actually ruled by the rich.

You've got extreme wealth... and extreme poverty.
It has the widest gap between rich and poor.

for every quite little suburb with neat lawns, there's a trailor park, and an army of homeless people.

Anything you say about America can be true - the good and the bad.


& I don't believe that people are that different - no matter where you go, I find people are generally the same. The differences are all just superficial.

I find it disturbing though how many people in favour of the death penalty, also seem to be in favour of torture.
You do realise that is against the Geneva Convention right?

I have always taken the approach that you should "see it from the other persons point of view" (almost akin to "love thy Neighbour) - but this includes muderers et all, just saying "They are Evil" is far too simplistic an explination to be credible... human beings are more complex than that... the notion of "Pure Evil" is a theoretical/thoelogical one, it's not a real one. Writing them off as 'pure evil' is an expedient way of dehumanising them so you can justify murdering them with the death penalty.
When ever I think of the death penalty, I think of those few people who were wrongly put to death... how scared and confused and furious they must have been to be in that situation.
Now, can you imagine how much worse that situation would be if they were tortured aswell?		2011-01-12 16:51:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

@Stoicrow - The idea sounded good at first, but there's an issue that is much similar to the solitary confinement issue. When the people wake up it would be a bit of a culture shock reaction.
"Oh your awake now, good. It seems you have been in rest for 20yrs. Also everyone you know is either gone or dead."
"WTF. AHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhh!!!"
Also, if we kept them asleep till they died, that would be no different than murder. Your holding them against their will, they can't fight back, and they are doomed to eventually die. Also, if they awoke 10 yrs later and was falsely accused, and found out their parents died, that would suck.

Well seeing as how we're not really getting anywhere with this discussion, I'll probably make this my main reasoning.

It all depends. People in different cultures will always disagree about something, which is why America can never agree on something in itself. It's not a bad thing. We have opinions of many cultures here, and listen to each one. It's just that we can't dawdle on the subject forever, we need a decision to stay with till we can entirely agree on something.

And: Torture is worse than death.

p.s. : To have no crime is a paradox. Crime is when someone commits a wrongful act against someone, whether it be an accident or on purpose. There will always be jealousy, greed, and what some refer to as sin. There has to be something wrong with a world with no crime.



By the way, to those that state the "In god we trust" thing about America. There have been people that have tried to change it that live in America.


Not always, a hand in a poket has worked several times.

I meant to fight against robbers. Police.		2011-01-12 16:56:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

I find it disturbing how many people are against the death penalty but are all in favor of aborting innocent babies.2011-01-12 16:56:00

Author:
TheCountessZ
Posts: 537

I am against torture.

I don't like that innocent people are punished, I never said I support the death penalty as it has been described, I gave my own version.

The whole "rich vs poor" dichotomy really doesn't have to exist if people don't want it to. Money is a theoretical and infinite resource, it cannot be hoarded and kept from others. If someone is really determined to make money they can. It's not "easy" but of course not, if it was easy money would be worthless.		2011-01-12 16:56:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

What comes around goes around?2011-01-12 16:59:00

Author:
Unknown User

To be honest, I haven't thought through all the sides of the death penalty. I am against it because of just some basic things I try to live by. Call it a bit naive, but I view killing anyone as wrong, whatever the circumstances. Maybe thats the case with many people. But how can I know I won't change in a real, terrible, situation?

Btw: Is it me or is the General Chat forum becoming a political debate club?!		2011-01-12 17:06:00

Author:
PygmyOwl
Posts: 1316

It's not "easy" but of course not, if it was easy money would be worthless.

Not true. Have you ever heard of the person that made the pet rock, or people that have stolen money from others, or how some companies around the world don't care about their customers, where they're all about profit.		2011-01-12 17:08:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

people that have stolen money from others

Yes, let's all advocate theft! It works out very well if there's also gun control.

Honestly, most of those major "evil" corporations you speak of aren't making any money at all. No joke. They run on imaginary money. They're kept on life support by brilliant government intervention, one piece of the huge puzzle that makes our economy as ugly as it is today.

In general though, hard work DOES pay off. It might not pay off this month, it might not pay off this year, but eventually, it does. It's all up to the individual if he or she wants to pursue higher education and career paths, start a business, invest, or continue working minimum wage unskilled labor.

It's also up to the people if they are willing to fix the problems in their society. But it's so much better to just point and laugh at people across the fence, now there's something every nation has in common.		2011-01-12 17:12:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

What comes around goes around?

What goes around comes around?		2011-01-12 17:16:00

Author:
Unknown User

Why do guns always get pulled into Foofles' posts about bad things? o;2011-01-12 17:19:00

Author:
Unknown User

I find it disturbing how many people are against the death penalty but are all in favor of aborting innocent babies.

That is true. I don't see why abortion is done; it seems creepy. I can think of only two reasons: On the baby is a result of rape, or somehow deformed; "It would be better for them to die". Yeah, tell that to "locked in" people.

A scary argument against abortion is, if we can kill babies, why can't we kill people? What is the difference between abortion and a mother taking their toddler of to be euthanized because they are no longer wanted? If we kill deformed babies... why not practice eugenics? If a mother aborts a baby to prevent it from having a bad life and possibly becoming a criminal... why not kill all criminals? Obviously, abortion is wrong.

On topic, how can one be against the death penalty... and for abortion?		2011-01-12 17:21:00

Author:
Stoicrow
Posts: 276

lol. You don't need guns to rob someone.

Anyways we're getting off topic here.

TDP, it's bad m'cay. Who here is actually FOR the death penalty? I'm neutral. I can't really choose sides.

Is there a group for serious discussions on LBPC? Cause I'm gonna start one if there isn't.		2011-01-12 17:22:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

LBPC is starting to get more interesting by the day, all of these debates being handled with care, no one saying "I'M RITE YUR WRAWNG LULZ". . .It's scary, but acknowledgeable. Good show Gents. (and lady dudes)

Moar debates in the future? ;o

On Topic (sorta): I guess I see the Death Penalty on the fence. It's bad, but it's somewhat necessary. I guess.		2011-01-12 17:25:00

Author:
Unknown User

I find it disturbing how many people are against the death penalty but are all in favor of aborting innocent babies.

Abortion kills embyros, which aren't babies, they're just small clusters of cells. I think abortion should be a last resort, but I think it should be possible. Granted it prevents a potential life, but so does abstinancy; through ovulation, most women lose an egg every month, each one of them could have been a baby, but it isn't always in the interest of them or the potential baby for them to become pregnant.

I do, however, think the death penalty is wrong.		2011-01-12 17:28:00

Author:
chimpskylark
Posts: 335

I could almost guarantee that most people here would change their views if put in a situation where the offending person had done something to their family. Everyone can take their moral high grounds saying death is wrong, but if someone killed your entire family and you had irrefutable proof it was them, you'd want nothing less than to see them die.

I would anyway.		2011-01-12 17:33:00

Author:
Unknown User

What if it was your mother that killed your family?2011-01-12 17:34:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

"Hard Work Pays Off";

That's a laugh... All of Americas Coffee, Sugar, Cocao, Trainers, T-shirts, Jeans etc are all made in 3rd world sweatshops. The poeple working in that "hell on earth" will never be able to afford a chocolate bar, or a starbucks coffee, or Nike Trainers.
Americas affluence is only possible by stepping on the heads of an oppressed 3rd world.		2011-01-12 17:37:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

What if it was your mother that killed your family?

Usually when a Family Member kills off their family, they end it in suicide. So that takes care of that.

@Mac; o_O When did this turn into sweatshops?		2011-01-12 17:40:00

Author:
Unknown User

"Hard Work Pays Off";

That's a laugh... All of Americas Coffee, Sugar, Cocao, Trainers, T-shirts, Jeans etc are all made in 3rd world sweatshops. The poeple working in that "hell on earth" will never be able to afford a chocolate bar, or a starbucks coffee, or Nike Trainers.
Americas affluence is only possible by stepping on the heads of an oppressed 3rd world.

So is yours! These third world sweatshops make everything for the developed world, right?
And seriously, if we keep jumping to other issues like this, we're going to have to make some new threads.		2011-01-12 17:45:00

Author:
Stoicrow
Posts: 276

I could almost guarantee that most people here would change their views if put in a situation where the offending person had done something to their family. Everyone can take their moral high grounds saying death is wrong, but if someone killed your entire family and you had irrefutable proof it was them, you'd want nothing less than to see them die.

I would anyway.

I didn't want to have to bring this up,
But a member of my family was murdered. I would rather not go into detail.

For a long time I was incredibly angry and frustrated, until I learned to forgive.
The act of forgiveness set me free from the pain and anger I felt, in a way that the act of revenge would not because there isn't any amount of suffering I could impose on them that would come close to the suffering they caused me.

You don't actually know what you are talking about.		2011-01-12 17:51:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

@Macnme - You know you could have just said something about Africa instead of throwing a hit at America like that. We're not a perfect country but neither is any other. Try not to start a war on the forums.

@Inanimacy - They don't always kill themselves.

I looked for a group in the groups but found none on serious topics. So I started a moderated public group.

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/group.php?groupid=754		2011-01-12 17:51:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

So, new threads anyone?2011-01-12 17:53:00

Author:
Unknown User

One thing I don't understand is a life sentence in prison. If you can't rehabilitate a person, then why keep them around and have everyone else sustain their useless life with their tax money? Some people will never be good, and are genetically programmed to be evil, so there is no sense in keeping them around if you can't fix them.2011-01-12 17:53:00

Author:
TheJollyRajah
Posts: 466

I didn't want to have to bring this up,
But a member of my family was murdered. I would rather not go into detail.

For a long time I was incredibly angry and frustrated, until I learned to forgive.
The act of forgiveness set me free from the pain and anger I felt, in a way that the act of revenge would not because there isn't any amount of suffering I could impose on them that would come close to the suffering they caused me.

You don't actually know what you are talking about.

You have a response for everything, be it this, CoD being crap, or whatever else. Sometimes it's hard to believe you. And so I won't.		2011-01-12 17:57:00

Author:
Unknown User

One thing I don't understand is a life sentence in prison. If you can't rehabilitate a person, then why keep them around and have everyone else sustain their useless life with their tax money? Some people will never be good, and are genetically programmed to be evil, so there is no sense in keeping them around if you can't fix them.


I believe we talked a little bit about that. Did you read all the posts in the thread?		2011-01-12 17:59:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

I believe the Death penalty should be revised so that the viewing area be catered by the victims favorite restaurant complete with clowns and balloons in a way so that the killer can see that there is an awesome party and he/ she is NOT invited. Then the victims families pull the switch/ trigger and then it's party time baby!2011-01-12 18:01:00

Author:
KILLA_TODDZILLA
Posts: 653

I'm not sure about the death penalty to be honest. The purpose of prison itself is supposed to be for rehabilitation - but just how many people get released and have a better life after that? Some people become institutionalised, where they actually can't function normally in society, because they have been in prison for too long. Some people commit crimes so that they can go to prison - I mean, think of some homeless people. They can't afford anything, and although some people like living on the streets, many don't. So, do a crime and go to prison, where you get a warm bed, hot food and even medical care (which, I believe in most parts of the world you'd have to pay for normally, right?).

Of course there are exceptions to every rule. Serial killers, for example, are often psychopathic. This means that they are pretty much unable to feel remorse or guilt for thier actions - so chances of rehabilitattion is pretty slim here, seeing as they don't actually see that they're doing anything wrong. Someone said something about somebody going on a killing spree - these people, psychologically speaking, are often having a psychotic moment - and note that you don't have to be psychotic to have a psychotic breakthrough. These people are usually extremely scared and angry or upset, and feel like they have no control of thier own actions. But these stand offs usually end up with suicide anyway.

The death penalty is a hard thing to judge, whether it is ethical or not. On one hand, there are beliefs that some people do not deserve to live - but who can judge that kind of thing? And then, there's the problem that because the crime that was committed may be seen as so terrible, people may be quick to condemn others - even when there's a chance of innocence, and that the wrong person is being killed. Death also does seem to be the easy way out. Would you rather live for ever in solitary with guilt, or just die? I know what I'd prefer.

But, what if the person in this case does have a psychopathological disorder (as mentioned above). These people are not going to feel remorse, so all you're doing is spending money that could be used on other things to keep somebody alive, until they die, whilst they are of no use to society, and are literally just using up money.

Just answer this. If you were put on death row, what do you possibly have to lose? What's stopping these people on death row attacking and killing anyone in prison, abusing guards etc - there's nothing more they can really threaten this person with.		2011-01-12 18:01:00

Author:
standby250
Posts: 1113

We should make a thread announcing the group, because I know a lot of good debaters will not read all of this thread to find the post with the group xD

This group is interesting tho.		2011-01-12 18:02:00

Author:
Unknown User

You have a response for everything, be it this, CoD being crap, or whatever else. Sometimes it's hard to believe you. And so I won't.

Thanks for that.

I'm actually feeling quite depressed now at using my cousins death as an example in an internet argument. I did say I would rather not have to bring it up.

I think I'm done with this thread		2011-01-12 18:05:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

You have a response for everything, be it this, CoD being crap, or whatever else. Sometimes it's hard to believe you. And so I won't.

Uncool dude. You basically just said he's a liar and a big FU to him. He said something personal about his family, and you had to say that. Whether it be lie or truth, you don't just do that.		2011-01-12 18:18:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

"Hard Work Pays Off";

That's a laugh... All of Americas Coffee, Sugar, Cocao, Trainers, T-shirts, Jeans etc are all made in 3rd world sweatshops. The poeple working in that "hell on earth" will never be able to afford a chocolate bar, or a starbucks coffee, or Nike Trainers.
Americas affluence is only possible by stepping on the heads of an oppressed 3rd world.

This is the death penalty thread, not the Macne bashes America thread...		2011-01-12 18:27:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

Uncool dude. You basically just said he's a liar and a big FU to him. He said something personal about his family, and you had to say that. Whether it be lie or truth, you don't just do that.

No, I said I personally wasn't going to believe it. I could just have easily responded by saying that I did know what I was talking about because I ahve also experienced it. Who would know the truth?		2011-01-12 19:00:00

Author:
Unknown User

Wow. That was interesting. I post this before I go to bed, wake up the next morning and SIX PAGES!

Well, I wasn't expecting that, and probably won't read all of your posts, but this is my opinion.



If the death penalty continues to exist, it must be changed, so that the prisoners don't suffer (Contrary to the supporters of the death penalty's beliefs).
The perfect way to do this is to replace the oxygen in a room completely with nitrogen, putting the prisoner in a euphoric state, rendering them unconscious in 15 seconds, and dead in a minute.

Supporters of the death penalty say that the death penalty is to make them suffer. Their victim(s) did not die in the euphoric state that they will, they died while being bashed with an aluminium baseball bat, or something. They say it is meant to hurt them.

I disagree.

Two wrongs do not make a right, and the only way to justify the death penalty is to lessen it, so it is not murder.
Law enforcement definitely does not want to emulate the acts it is punishing.

If they have to die, we shouldn't murder them. Human beings are not barbarians.		2011-01-12 20:42:00

Author:
tomodon246
Posts: 624

How should those who kill purely by accident be handled? Say if someone is killed in a car accident and the person who lived was at fault. Should they endure the same punishment as someone who intentionally kills someone for the sake of greed? Is it upsetting to see drunk drivers, who kill people in accidents, be let off with a slap on the wrist?

Should the severity of a punishment be based on the crime committed, the motive behind the crime, or both?		2011-01-12 21:18:00

Author:
Enlong3
Posts: 357

It depends what the circumstance are. I'll believe in the system if it handles itself well.2011-01-12 21:28:00

Author:
Random
Posts: 673

Well, I don't disagree, but I don't agree either. Rather, the worse the crime, the worse the punishment.2011-01-12 23:40:00

Author:
JspOt
Posts: 3607

Im not for it Or against it. It's actually very hard to decide.
If I had it my way, Death penalty would be legal, under a few circumstances.
It would pretty much be "an eye for an eye", as Alex mentioned. That being said, there should also be a sufficient amount of time during a trial, long enough to bring solid, clear evidence before the penalty is given. This would ensure that no innocent person would be put to death. Now there will be some flaws, like everything, but this is just my view on it.		2011-01-12 23:46:00

Author:
dragonember
Posts: 607

How should those who kill purely by accident be handled? Say if someone is killed in a car accident and the person who lived was at fault. Should they endure the same punishment as someone who intentionally kills someone for the sake of greed? Is it upsetting to see drunk drivers, who kill people in accidents, be let off with a slap on the wrist?

Should the severity of a punishment be based on the crime committed, the motive behind the crime, or both?


That's manslaughter, not murder.		2011-01-13 02:56:00

Author:
tomodon246
Posts: 624

Personally, I think the state should concentrate more on creating a society of people that wouldn't murder. The death penalty only works as a deterrent where the crime is carefully planned, I don't know any figures but I assume most are crimes of passion.

I see criminals as people that were failed by the state in most cases. People who were brought up by uneducated parents that didn't care about the child's education, like a spiral. They fall in with bad crowds and all sorts of crazy things happen. Murder is an abhorrent crime and life should mean life in prison, no escape. I can't imagine anything worse than prison, it would terrify me to be around people like that, leave them in there to rot. That way, they're gone from public conciousness and not having a good time and taxpayers haven't payed to kill someone they may feel is innocent.		2011-01-13 03:15:00

Author:
lulz
Posts: 4

That's manslaughter, not murder.

True, but I was speaking more from a moral standpoint rather than a legal classification. Both result in the same outcome, the loss of a human life. So to reword my original question, is it fair to assign different punishments based on the different legal classifications of the same outcome? If someone loses their life at the hands of someone else, do they deserve to endure the same punishment as someone who intentionally murders someone regardless of the legal classification?		2011-01-13 05:15:00

Author:
Enlong3
Posts: 357

Well, no.

The intent is very different. If you hit someone in a car you don't, usually, intend to.

When you put someone in an industrial microwave, you do intend to kill them.

Accidents and Intended actions are too different.		2011-01-13 05:32:00

Author:
tomodon246
Posts: 624

All I did was search once and found this.

Here's a link to a terrible accident. It's about a woman that went the wrong way on the street and killed 8. If the woman lived and survived, should she be put on trial for killing the people and given life or the death penalty?

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/07/26/2009-07-26_eight_dead_in_horrific_accident_on_taconic.html		2011-01-13 07:58:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

All I did was search once and found this.

Here's a link to a terrible accident. It's about a woman that went the wrong way on the street and killed 8. If the woman lived and survived, should she be put on trial for killing the people and given life or the death penalty?

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/07/26/2009-07-26_eight_dead_in_horrific_accident_on_taconic.html

Oh..... that's horrible.

But is it murder to cause a collision which kills 8 people, including 4 children, without intending to, purely because of stupidity?

Dangerous driving? Yes.
Negligence? Yes.
Manslaughter? Yes.

But murder?

I can't be sure.

And how can punishment be decided when the crime is unclear?		2011-01-13 08:32:00

Author:
tomodon246
Posts: 624

2 wrongs do not a right make.
We do not live in biblical times of the old testament. an eye for eye leaves everyone blind.


Or it teaches others to not take someones eye in the first place.


What about the ones with psychological disorders? .

So...you're saying kill them if they have a psychological disorder?



I guarantee, any hardcore pacifist vegan WILL kill and eat an animal if he or she is hungry enough, and will swing anything he or she can find at an assailant if in a life threatening situation. It's the most fundamental trait of any animal.


I'm vegetarian and I agree. If there's no food source and it's me or the animal? Sorry animal.



The UK 'used' to have the death penalty... then we progressed as a society and abolished it.

So you think you're better than us because you don't that the death penalty? What about war criminals? Would you want them to be alive? Was Hitler redeemable? Thing is, some people just deserve to die. :/


.
I think that the death penalty is wrong. But what is wrong with sleeping? The psychological affect would be... amazing.

Ok, lets put you in there, see what you think when you wake up. Bet you change your mind.


That is true. I don't see why abortion is done; it seems creepy. I can think of only two reasons: On the baby is a result of rape, or somehow deformed; "It would be better for them to die". Yeah, tell that to "locked in" people.

A scary argument against abortion is, if we can kill babies, why can't we kill people? What is the difference between abortion and a mother taking their toddler of to be euthanized because they are no longer wanted? If we kill deformed babies... why not practice eugenics? If a mother aborts a baby to prevent it from having a bad life and possibly becoming a criminal... why not kill all criminals? Obviously, abortion is wrong.

On topic, how can one be against the death penalty... and for abortion?

Because they're not killing babies.
The law is, in places that allow it, if you're going to do it you have to do it within 3 months.
Before it becomes a 'baby' or even a fetus really. So all you're destroying is a few cells.		2011-01-13 08:50:00

Author:
Bremnen
Posts: 1800

So...you're saying kill them if they have a psychological disorder?

WHAT!?!?! NOOOooo.... Not sure how you got that from that statement. Read what's above it. He said to kill those that were a danger to themselves and others, then I said, "What about the ones with psychological disorders?" to show how killing people with psychological disorders would be BAD.


And how can punishment be decided when the crime is unclear?

Something has to be done. We can't just let her walk, but we can't just put her on death row.		2011-01-13 09:53:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

So you think you're better than us because you don't that the death penalty? What about war criminals? Would you want them to be alive? Was Hitler redeemable? Thing is, some people just deserve to die. :/

I know I said I would stay out of this, but I just had to reply to this one, as it kind of highlights the absolute futility of the death penalty in the first place.

Hitler was not tried or executed or punished in anyway for his crimes. He committed suicide.. He chose "the easy way out" and killed himself.
Why would you think that threatening him with death would have any bearing on the situation, when he had already decided to kill himself?

Same with prisoners who are lifers... alot of them attempt or commit suicide, becuase it is "the easy way out" of their sentance. The life sentance is the punishment, their death is the release from that punishment. So the whole concept of the death penalty as a punishment is wrong, as many prisoners "choose" their own death sentance and commit suicide, and once they are dead, they feel nothing and are no longer trapped in prison.
The death penalty is "the easy way out" of a life sentance.

Hitler deserved to be brought to justice and punished, he did not deserve a quick painless death.		2011-01-13 14:08:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

Why is it necessary for prisoners to feel tortured? In the end, it doesn't improve our situation, or theirs. An eye for an eye is a barbaric way of thinking; I hope we move away from that. I only see prison as a place to keep bad people away from society, with the hope of them becoming sane citizens once again.

Life sentences are a waste. In the end, everyone suffers. Prisons don't run on their own; they're running on our tax money.		2011-01-13 15:35:00

Author:
TheJollyRajah
Posts: 466

1 sanity is a condition imposed upon us by society.
2. society forces us to accept the pre concived ideas of the corrupt.

hitler formed an extremist society that was obviusly wrong when veiwed from an outside perspective.
our society is exactly the same only it moves at a speed far slower than hitler's.

oh and the death penalty is a hatefull and shameless execution that society wants us to deem acceptable.		2011-01-13 22:23:00

Author:
unXpectiD
Posts: 1132

We keep looking at the side of the "TDP is bad". But no one has really argued if it is good. There have been some that said it was good, but for the wrong reasons.

My first question is:

In the countries where TDP has been abolished, what do you have in place of it? Life? Sent to Guantanamo?		2011-01-14 03:17:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

I think that the death penalty should only happen to someone if there is 100% evidence and for certain crimes like murder,rape-etc.2011-01-14 05:02:00

Author:
ktmbillyjr
Posts: 177

As it has been said before, life imprisonment is a huge monetary drain on resources. In the US, the prison system as it is today costs massive amounts of tax dollars, far more then public education, and serves as free room and board for the dregs of society, and this is even more of a reality in countries that have abolished the death penalty unless they also have established some means to keep crime down (or have more leniency towards them). Logically, this does create a great justification for the death penalty; however, in the search for a more "humane" way of killing people has resulted in less then efficient, costly, and overly theatrical systems of execution that are more then a neglegable money drain themselves. Additionally, we have no way of knowing just how many people have been wrongly found guilty and executed; for example, in the states Texas has a well-deserved reputation (that some Texans even take pride in) as being kill-crazy when it comes to death row inmates but in recent years DNA evidence by organizations in search of justice have proven several dozens of people of being wrongly convicted (and not all were still alive to enjoy the news...).

Do I believe in the death penalty? Yes, because some people are simply irredeemable monsters; Charles Manson should have been put in the ground long ago rather then be left alive all these decades as a rambling parasite slowly rotting in his cell and I'd be willing to bet history will prove Jared Loughner to be not much more sympathetic (his perpetually smug grin certainly doesn't make him seem to regret anything). Even if they can be considered "criminally insane" (which, it should be noted, is not a psychiatric term but a legal one used specifically for legal defense) there has to be a point where whatever sort of mental conditions they may have do not excuse them of their actions. The real subjective question is just where one draws the line where death is a more practical course of action compared to serious psychological treatment that could actually prove the be productive.

In all, the death penalty is something I believe in but it, and just about everything else about the criminal justice system, needs serious modification. I honestly couldn't care less if people who are unrepentantly evil were executed in massive numbers quick and efficiently, but there's no surefire way to go about executing just them. But on the other hand if the death penalty was repealled or even if nothing changed at all it would only exacerbate all the problems not related specifically to executions. Obviously, I have no way of knowing how to increase the accuracy of convictions, reduce the burden of prison costs on the public, increase the effectiveness of criminal rehabilitation, and making executions as swift and cost effective as possible all at once (although I have imagined a shotgun-mounted apparatus to the blindfolded head of a prisoner strapped to a repurposed dentist chair, but I doubt public squimishness would allow it to catch on).		2011-01-14 06:35:00

Author:
Dapiek Absaroka
Posts: 512

That's quite a mouthful there Dapiek.

So... We need to make it:
- Cheap: In terms of taxpayers don't complain.
- Fast: In terms of *Snaps fingers* "Like that".
- Humane: In terms of community appeal.
- Effective: In terms of getting the point across.
- Accurate: In terms of whether or not it was the right decision.

The only true problem is accuracy. We can't be 100% sure that the person deserves it. Perhaps religion is the answer, though... When religion interferes, it's never good. And by religion I mean that we find the person's religion or "Beliefs" and use that as a base for execution. Though, like I said, PROBLEMS. Can you think of a way this can't work?

Here's a link for the "criminally insane" defenses.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Criminally+insane		2011-01-14 08:20:00

Author:
Devious_Oatmeal
Posts: 1799

I have to say, it all seems like an easy way out if you ask me. If you did do it, would you rather suffer for life in prison, with the guilt, and the awful conditons, or have an end to it all?

Obviously, there's also the question of truly knowing if they did or not, which is another problem.		2011-01-15 21:53:00

Author:
kirbyman62
Posts: 1893

Ah yes. The death penelty.

My opinion on TDP is this: Why are we keeping disgusting members of society alive so they can just sit around and do nothing.

Either we should make prisons 100% self sustaining (Many prisons were in my state before legislation was passed), or start using the death penalty, and using it often.

I have a question for people who want to get rid of the death penalty: A few months ago, there was a random psychopath who did something to a random young person. This man was insane and evil, and he cannot be cured. What should happen to him if we can't use the death penelty?		2011-01-15 22:17:00

Author:
Unknown User

depends what he did, youre not being very specific - if the insane psychopath only slapped the random young person then he should get community service, but if he ate his body then he should be taken to a hospital for treatment and research into what drives people to madness so we can try to prevent it in the future.

imo death penalties should never be given out, not even to the worst offenders - the people that commit the worst crimes usually justify it in their own heads and when this is the case we need to help them understand why its not ok and we need to learn about the kind of upbringing and surroundings that lead people to murder, rape, arson and other illness related crimes		2011-01-16 03:08:00

Author:
Skalio-
Posts: 920

Well, I think it is something that can be used for good, but evil too.
Think about this:
A policeman and a man were friens a long ago, but the man scamed him/stole from him/etcetera.
So the policeman is alone and finds the man takes him to police station and gives him a death penalty just for vendetta, that can be evilacious.
But read this:
A policeman was strolling doing patrol, and sees a man kicking an innocent man until killing him, so the policeman inmobilizes him and gives him death penalty.
My concliusion:
Death penalty isn?t either good nor bad, the broblem is the honestity of the one who uses it.		2011-01-16 03:43:00

Author:
ALEXhatena
Posts: 1110

Ah yes. The death penelty.

My opinion on TDP is this: Why are we keeping disgusting members of society alive so they can just sit around and do nothing.

Either we should make prisons 100% self sustaining (Many prisons were in my state before legislation was passed), or start using the death penalty, and using it often.

I have a question for people who want to get rid of the death penalty: A few months ago, there was a random psychopath who did something to a random young person. This man was insane and evil, and he cannot be cured. What should happen to him if we can't use the death penelty?

Define "Evil" please. "Evil" is not a medically recognised condition, it is a subjective term. "Insane" is however a medically recognised condition, and treatment is available.
Do you have a medical background that qualifies you to determine that he "cannot be cured"?

I suspect that you do not. There is always an alternative to the death penalty. when the death penalty is applied it is because you "want someone dead" - which makes the state no better than a murderer.		2011-01-16 11:09:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

I wasn't clear on what this man did. He killed a young girl after doing something to her. He didn't know her, and it was 100% random. So yeah, he's got mental issues. It seems like i'm just making stuff up, but this actually happened a few months ago. The man currently resides in prison for life.

Now tell me, why is my tax money keeping this man alive, when he clearly is threat to people around him? If a person who randomly does unspeakable things to random people can't function in society without being a threat? What should we do with him?

If you're uncomfortable with the idea of the death penatly, fine. Then just make prisons self sustainable. That would a win-win. Proponents of the death penalty are happy because the inmate is not leeching off society, and the inmate will stay alive, pleasing people who are uncomfortable with the death penalty. Plus, if a person is wrongly sentenced, then they can get out if the proper evidence is found. That would work.		2011-01-16 20:55:00

Author:
Unknown User

But you then have the frightening prospect of being more likely to be locked up if the prison requires a little extra workforce.

America currently has a ban on importing goods that are made by forced labour prisoners from other countries... but has no such ban on creating and exporting such goods themselves. This gives them an unfair trade advantage. The current American prison population is used like a slave workforce, neatly circumnavigating the anti-slave laws, which may go someway to explaining why the prison population is so large. You *need* full prisons to keep the industrial military complex ticking over.		2011-01-17 18:57:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

Now tell me, why is my tax money keeping this man alive, when he clearly is threat to people around him? If a person who randomly does unspeakable things to random people can't function in society without being a threat? What should we do with him?



The death penalty is EXTREMELY expensive, even more so than keeping the prisoner fed for the rest of his life.

When you sentence someone to death, there is a very long and complex judicial process, causing a lot more money to be payed to the government. This process IS necessary if you do the death penalty, as I surely don't want to wrongly execute anyone, but if you just kept them in prison for the rest of their life, we eliminate the possibility of this costly mistake, and the extra money could be spent on more important things.

Do you want some numbers?

California taxpayers pay 90,000 more per death row prisoner each year than on prisoners in regular confinement.

Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.

The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.

So yeah. Cost is a NEGATIVE for the death penalty.		2011-01-17 19:16:00

Author:
Jaslow
Posts: 775

Alright, raw financial numbers I can accept as reasoning more then notions of moral superiority and indignation. Though theoretically executing a psychotic killer really shouldn't cost more then keeping them alive and fed until they die of natural causes (or unplanned "incidents"); if there is a possibility that someone facing the death penalty is innocent, then a case can be made for them facing life imprisonment. Although Macnme seems to (perhaps unintentionally) imply life imprisonment itself is perpetuating an entirely different evil, or at least fueling a morally questionable cog of the nation, though I digress.

But in the instance of a completely unrepentant and undeniably immoral person (i.e. the aforementioned unquestionable killing of an innocent child by an incurable maniac) do we really want to hold them to the same standard and put them through the same process as someone who can be conceivably found innocent? If such a person is unquestionably found guilty of crimes, a long and complex process shouldn't be necessary. Completely eliminating the death penalty (as it is now) could ease the financial burden the prison system has on America, but I can't help feel as though there is room for more reform.

Relatedly, as I said before "(criminally) insane" is not a psychiatric term nor is it recognized as a medical condition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insane). We're at a point where insanity has become an excuse for otherwise clearly immoral (but sane) people to escape more severe punishment which shows how warped the legal system has become. Someone with a genuinely real mental disorder may be able to be treated with positive results, but not always. And truth be told, most people who are recognized as truly "psychotic" are not genuine threats to society (being threats to themselves more then anything) and hold more prospects for successful treatment. "Psychotic killers" are exceptions to the rule and have severe issues, which makes treatment much more difficult if not nigh impossible.		2011-01-18 07:32:00

Author:
Dapiek Absaroka
Posts: 512


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