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#1

Bad design 101

Archive: 37 posts

When I created my first level, I just dove straight in and started building.
I had a blast, finally an editor where I can make my own levels! =D
It was pretty awesome at the time (at least in my own mind), but after a full year playing so many community levels, I noticed several poor design choices pop up from time to time.
I went back to my first level (after creating my Ratchet & Clank recreation) with this new found knowledge.

While my first level was still enjoyable, it still had those rookie mistakes scattered throughout.
Since I couldn't fix the mistakes (the whole level is glued together lols) I decided to add some notes identifing the good and bad design choices I made back then.

The "developer commentary" is displayed via magic mouths (green for good, red for bad), which you have the option to read as you play through the level.
The level itself is a fairly basic platformer through a remixed (cut, flipped, rotated, set on fire, etc) Temples template from the story mode. It still has a bit of attitude to keep it interesting, and the gameplay isn't half bad for my first level (certainly no walking!).

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5006/5347602309_fa3f51cb7f.jpg http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5209/5347602371_b3f855b180.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5283/5348213656_68b8797dc2.jpgmaaadskills!http://i9.lbp.me/img/bl/779ae2c1e9157dd2b83ed4af3c3f636939261993.png
http://lbp.me/v/syrfdh

I'm quite attached to it for some reason. I definitely want to make a better version of it some day.
But for now there's the creator notes to keep you entertained.
I added in these design tips to help creators become even better and reach their full potential.
So have a play (http://lbp.me/v/syrfdh)/read, you may learn something while having a bit of fun.

Updated for LBP2 with some holograms, and an instant jetpack (that you can spawn at any time [L1]) if your feeling adventurous.


http://lbp.me/v/syrfdh		2011-01-12 03:42:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

i played this level awhile ago, but i loved it! the concept is original and cool. i might do a commentary on my old levels like this. it makes bad levels really fun xD i can't really review your level any better than you did in the level, but i can say that i had a lot of fun!2011-01-12 05:42:00

Author:
harbingernaut
Posts: 126

Hi Midnight_heist.

What a great little platformer for your first ever level....The speech bubbles make it a lot more interesting, and though most of the points were pretty basic, I'd imagine it could help a lot of newbs with their own levels.
Not really sure what else to add to be honest, apart from I'm going to play your level 'ratchet and clank' now,,....WOWIE, 5 stars and 2184 plays, impressive!!! (EDIT< just played it, NICE level)

Oh yeah, near the beginning, there is the speech bubble that says "I have SHORTED' the race" rather than obviously 'shortened'.

Sorry for such a short review, I guess if this HAD been your only level, and you were new to the game I'd try and find a little more to add, but hey you are a veteran with all the levels you have published, and don't need any 'pointers' from the likes of me

If you could F4F my level. 'House of the flying diggers' I'd appreciate it.

Shade_seeker		2011-01-12 15:06:00

Author:
Shade_seeker
Posts: 328

Very good for your first level! The speech bubbles add a lot to this level, in fact this type of thing works even better then then a standard tutorial would, because it is a real example of a level. I learned a lot!

It would be cool to see more stuff like this, maybe a sequel?

5 stars! F4F: Fight for Justice... link is in my sig.		2011-01-14 00:14:00

Author:
SackRacer77
Posts: 153

F4F all done, some nice levels around atm.
Thanks for the nice reviews guys.

I fixed some typos. I don't think there are any more.
A sequel you say?
Yes, I plan to have bonus commentary (all green/positive points) on my next Super Monkey X level. Explaining why it works well.
With a possibility of a playable tutorial, but I am not quite sure the best way to build it atm. But I'll wait till LBP2 in order to experiment with that.		2011-01-14 04:35:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

Can't wait to give this a go over the week-end! Looks interesting.

http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/272671-Blackfalcon/671/5/animal0064hb2_display.gif		2011-01-14 19:19:00

Author:
Blackfalcon
Posts: 409

What a brilliant idea for a level.
I've played a few poorly constructed how to make a good level type levels and often come away thinking...oh dear,thanks for stating the obvious but maybe you could do with a few tips yourself. But this level is something entirely different altogether, maybe even a new genre! here the author deconstructs his first level (which was a lot better than my first level!) and points out the various design flaws and merits, offering interesting insights into improving the structure. The combination of gameplay, practical advice, physical demonstration and commentary really work to engage the thought process. Has a lot of integrity to be so candid in pointing out the negatives, how many of us would be honest enough to criticize and pull apart our levels like this? Kudos dude!
The potential for this should not be underestimatated, with LBP2 comes a whole wave of new exciting levels....using the technique established here imagine a behind the scenes movie commentary by a sackbot director like the extras on a DVD, maybe even done with a co-host? Or if somebody comes up with a great topdown racer or tech masterpiece they could do a demo level like this with a sackbot technical commentary walkthrough. Hearted for the honesty and inspiration.		2011-01-17 08:51:00

Author:
EnochRoot
Posts: 533

Really, really interesting idea and fascinating commentary. I agree with almost all of the points you made, although I probably wouldn't have noticed some of them if you hadn't pointed them out. The only point I think I'd add is that, right after the magic mouth where you commented electricity doesn't fit the level, there's two electric boxes. I hit the second, because it is incredibly difficult to see which planes it extends to. Once again, nice and useful commentary.2011-01-22 03:13:00

Author:
Unknown User

What a brilliant idea for a level.
I've played a few poorly constructed how to make a good level type levels and often come away thinking...oh dear,thanks for stating the obvious but maybe you could do with a few tips yourself. But this level is something entirely different altogether, maybe even a new genre! here the author deconstructs his first level (which was a lot better than my first level!) and points out the various design flaws and merits, offering interesting insights into improving the structure. The combination of gameplay, practical advice, physical demonstration and commentary really work to engage the thought process. Has a lot of integrity to be so candid in pointing out the negatives, how many of us would be honest enough to criticize and pull apart our levels like this? Kudos dude!
The potential for this should not be underestimatated, with LBP2 comes a whole wave of new exciting levels....using the technique established here imagine a behind the scenes movie commentary by a sackbot director like the extras on a DVD, maybe even done with a co-host? Or if somebody comes up with a great topdown racer or tech masterpiece they could do a demo level like this with a sackbot technical commentary walkthrough. Hearted for the honesty and inspiration.
Wow, thanks for the great review!
I love commentary in general, it makes you appreciate the thought process that went into making the level/movie/etc.
I would love to see more people do this with LBP2.


Really, really interesting idea and fascinating commentary. I agree with almost all of the points you made, although I probably wouldn't have noticed some of them if you hadn't pointed them out. The only point I think I'd add is that, right after the magic mouth where you commented electricity doesn't fit the level, there's two electric boxes. I hit the second, because it is incredibly difficult to see which planes it extends to. Once again, nice and useful commentary.
Thanks!
Ah, good point (I hate when that happens!).
I have now added another red magic mouth explaining proper layer usage.
Cheers.		2011-01-22 04:16:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

Well im going to check this out, looks like it could be good for me (never made a LBP 1 level but I figured I might aswell try with lbp 2). If were talking LBP 2 commentary then im guessing use of the record feature might work pretty well dispite the quality here.

TC.		2011-01-22 18:49:00

Author:
timecatcher
Posts: 67

@timecatcher: Nah, it's just a bunch of magic mouths, I do not have a mic.

Updated for LBP2 with some holograms for those visual learning people out there, and an instant jetpack (that you can spawn at any time [L1]) if your feeling lazy/adventurous.		2011-02-10 03:21:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

This is a really cool idea for a level, hope it helps other creators improve on their work! Very clear and easy to understand, nice job!

http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/272671-Blackfalcon/671/5/animal0064hb2_display.gif		2011-02-10 16:25:00

Author:
Blackfalcon
Posts: 409

*I like the concept, but I tend to disagree with you on a few points. Mainly that a lot of things you described as too hard, I thought were perfectly fine. For example, I actually enjoyed the glass slippery part and thought the spikes on the wheel at the beginning were perfectly fair. I think it is good to keep the player on their toes. For example, Donkey Kong Country Returns has levels can be fairly fast paced and the player has to think and react quickly to avoid death. However, I will accept that I may not be the typical player so stuff like this is probably correct for a lot of people playing LBP.
*Very good point on the tiny platforms. It works fine in other games, but the physics here just doesn't work well with it and don't allow for the precision necessary to consistently make the jumps.
*Is there any reason not to use infinite life check points?
Aside from a few things, I agree with just about everything you say and the things I don't agree with are simply a difference in play style. I think a possible idea to consider would be to show how problems could be corrected. For example, after saying how the fire obscured platforms are bad, perhaps have them raised up to show how that particular obstacle could be done better. Overall, I thought that it was a good helpful level. It brought my attention to a few things I had not really thought about, so good job. When I get the chance, I will play some of your other levels as well to see how you put your own advise to use.		2011-02-11 20:18:00

Author:
waffledogRTK
Posts: 22

*Yeah, that's fair enough. Those faster platformers need to have those quick reaction obstacles, as that is what the player expects to find.
A high majority of LBP players are kids, so I did and I design some of my tips to cater for them.
(I have gotten a few comments on my Deja Q level about the first jump being to hard, heh.)
I tend to save tricky/quick reaction elements for bonus areas. Entirely optional, risk for reward type stuff. I feel that's the best way to cater to the broad audience/skill range of LBP players.

*Ah, LBP physics. Personally I don't mind them at all, (since I'm used to it I guess), but it's always helpful to leave some wiggle room for those mario fans.

*Is there any reason not to use infinite life check points?
When I created my first level, infinite checkpoints didn't exist, so that's one reason they are in my level at least.
Secondly at time of creation, the public/online scoreboards wern't too accurate, so the enticement of score bubbles didn't exist for me.
If you take out the infinite checkpoints, it forces the player to take care during each section (in order to finish the level). Essentially having infinite checkpoints takes away that extra challenge of avoiding the classic "game over" screen. And since dying didn't matter (as you have infinite attempts), and points didn't matter, the skilled player needed that extra "game over" challenge to avoid.
However the majority of players tend to be kids, who prefer infinite checkpoints. The wheel of death in the Bunker on LBP1 (or even the springy stairs in the wedding level) was a source of much contention, as it combined a steep learning curve/wall with finite checkpoints.
Sadly if younger players are met with something too hard or different, a lot will simply quit (or worse, rage quit) the level.

Yup, the "correction" option is something I have in mind for my next tutorial.
You seem to be fairly knowledgeable about this subject, so I'm happy even you found my level helpful.
Do I practice what I preach? Yeah, I think so.
I plan to follow my own rules to the letter on my next level.		2011-02-11 22:18:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

Thanks for the feedback of both of my LBP2 levels. It's an interesting tutorial type level.

VISUALS:
As what this level says, it has bad design, but in a good way.

SOUND:
Funny music choice.

GAMEPLAY:
The gameplay is decent, but of course you did those bad obstacles on purpose just to teach players a thing or two. The retangle fire part near the low space ceiling is somehow un-passable, so I think you need to shorten it a bit.

OVERALL:
An ingenious level that's well describable and has some great advices. A yeah vote.		2011-02-12 04:30:00

Author:
JustinArt
Posts: 1314

Heya - this level probably doesn't need much, now, but I played it and, well, it's quite good.

Like you said, it's a level with poor design choices, but that's why it's good - you point out where and why the choices are bad.		2011-02-15 07:47:00

Author:
Unknown User

Reviewed in game as well. Some great medium-level design considerations. I hope your work and the work of others like you brings the community levels up in fun and quality.2011-02-16 01:32:00

Author:
Hoplyte
Posts: 100

Added a review in game. You dissected this level to perfection and I really enjoyed the humor behind the Wily Coyote-styled traps (although I do see how some people wouldn't ). One of the best "Do's and Don'ts of Level Design" tutorials I've seen yet.

Maybe you could check out my level sometime ^^
https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=49476-Defend-the-Castle!-(Looking-for-Pointers-Suggestions)&p=777172&posted=1		2011-02-16 05:23:00

Author:
Unknown User

I added a review in game. I really like the commentary, it has a behind the scenes feel to it that makes the level very engaging. Hopefully more people will make a commentary version of their levels, I really think it could improve the overall quality of the levels being published. Great work.2011-02-16 22:29:00

Author:
Kraznoff
Posts: 26

Both funny and informative, I feel people learn better that way. Thanks for making it!2011-02-18 02:59:00

Author:
lochnar
Posts: 59

When I was reading at this level at work it sounded like an awesome idea and I got a picture in my head on how it was done. When I got home and launched it up I found a level, while good, not the same as I was expecting. What I was hoping for was a level that showed the same room twice, once with the bad design choices and the other with the good ones just to highlight what a person needed to change. And that's perhaps what this level needs, not just commentary, but hands-on examples on how a room shouldn't and should be designed.2011-02-18 18:39:00

Author:
nerthus
Posts: 28

When I was reading at this level at work it sounded like an awesome idea and I got a picture in my head on how it was done. When I got home and launched it up I found a level, while good, not the same as I was expecting. What I was hoping for was a level that showed the same room twice, once with the bad design choices and the other with the good ones just to highlight what a person needed to change. And that's perhaps what this level needs, not just commentary, but hands-on examples on how a room shouldn't and should be designed.
I agree.
That's the plan for the sequel!
Which F4F level of yours do you want me to take a look at?
(I'll probably review them both anyway)		2011-02-18 18:44:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

I agree.
That's the plan for the sequel!
Which F4F level of yours do you want me to take a look at?
(I'll probably review them both anyway)

Well, you can play them in FC->SvtCC order to see what I've learned and improved upon if you'd like. I'm currently checking out your current levels. I'll post my impressions in this thread if I find something worth commenting on. 		2011-02-18 18:49:00

Author:
nerthus
Posts: 28

Very cool concept and it's well implemented early on in the LBP2 lifecycle, but as a level, it's really not as enjoyable as you say it is. I don't know what to say, it's just a mediocre level with decent commentary. If the instructions were funnier/wittier/whateverer then I'd be more interested, but it is what it is I s'pose.

F4F: https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=49159-Prius_Eco-Adventure-(With-Pics-and-Video!)(Help-me-get-30-Hearts!)		2011-02-19 00:33:00

Author:
Sack-Jake
Posts: 1153

Added to queue, will have a go soon.2011-02-19 11:37:00

Author:
TNSv
Posts: 302

Thank you! I learned some things from this, super helpful. However, you should make the magic mouth ranges a bit wider. I quite often ran past them and had to go back by a tiny bit to view them again. Every new player should check this level out!2011-02-20 13:56:00

Author:
Edeslash
Posts: 135

thats a good idea and fun to read while you play
but i guess the jet is not needed. but ok for not skilled player of course x)

i took the first lower part of the road and the last fire part was a bit hard to figure out but well it was fun. one of the parts where you can image the red speeker for yourself. made a good feeling

nothing to say against the level at all.
how about doing a continue part for lbp2? like doing things on purpose? to show what you saw on the most lbp2 levels what is made wrong and right.

if you got time for a F4F: https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=49851-LUMINES-Puzzle-Fusion-4.0
thank you :3

~FW		2011-02-21 17:27:00

Author:
ForcesWerwolf
Posts: 475

Hey nice work! It was a really cool idea, with a great visual learning experience for both new and old creators. It pointed out a lot of things I never really thought about, and because of that, I'm now a smarter creator.

I really liked how it was an older one of your levels, that you yourself critiqued, and it was quite interesting. Yay from me!		2011-02-26 00:23:00

Author:
Jayhawk_er
Posts: 403

If it wasn't for all the "problem" areas I could have played your original level in my sleep...the bad design elements were the only thing that made it interesting because the level itself is visually quite bland. That's the real reason people would quit...because they don't care what's the next screen over.

Some of your points have merit but you've taken it to an extreme. We already have to make the concession of only ever using infinite checkpoints or be booed...an occasional death is ok to keep players on their toes. Frankly this project seems a little self-indulgent...make all your proposed changes to address both the perceived and real problems with the original level and it's still going to be mediocre.

Also a self-proclaimed expert on bad design choices should know better than to use only color, expecially red and green, to differentiate something!		2011-02-26 03:21:00

Author:
fullofwin
Posts: 1214

If it wasn't for all the "problem" areas I could have played your original level in my sleep...the bad design elements were the only thing that made it interesting because the level itself is visually quite bland. That's the real reason people would quit...because they don't care what's the next screen over.
Some of the more experienced players may be able to finish the level easily, but newbies tend to have some trouble. For example the person who asked for infinite checkpoints in the comments, they wanted to read more but didn't have the skill/patience required to complete it.
Yes visuals play a part in the raising the interest of the level, but the player won't have much fun if they are hampered by poor/inefficient design elements.
The original level was just me experiementing with the editor, and visuals wern't a high priority.
As for the lack of visuals in the commentary version, they wern't a focus either, as they would simply detract from the gameplay design comments. Plus since the whole level is glued together, it would have been rather troublesome to update the design. Feel free to rip my visuals apart on my next level.


Some of your points have merit but you've taken it to an extreme. We already have to make the concession of only ever using infinite checkpoints or be booed...an occasional death is ok to keep players on their toes. Frankly this project seems a little self-indulgent...make all your proposed changes to address both the perceived and real problems with the original level and it's still going to be mediocre.
As long as that death is fair for the player, I totally agree.
It is my personal opinion levels should be potentially aceable on the first attempt.
There is a fine line between quick reactions and learning the layout via repetition/deaths (A line I experimented with my "sound n space" level).
I favour risk/reward design over quick reaction obstacles, that way the players can set the difficulty for themselves.
Yes, if I did fix all the problems, this level would be mediocre. But that mediocre three star rating is better than a poorer rating of one or two. And that's what this level is all about, attempting to raise the standard of those first time creators. The more stable their levels are, the less annoyed the players will be.


Also a self-proclaimed expert on bad design choices should know better than to use only color, expecially red and green, to differentiate something!
Yes, but the use of colour to differentiate something, is better than nothing at all.
The use of red and green are already ingrained into players from real life. Why wouldn't you use them? It's already in their subconscious, so you don't have to explain the mechcanic via text or through gameplay.
It's just like using O as "back", L1/L2 to change layer with the controllinator. The knowledge is already there, so you may as well capitalize on it.		2011-02-26 05:06:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

Yeah I thought they were all valid points to take into consideration, even if someone doesn't totally agree, they are still great things to keep in mind, if you are really interested in creating a masterpiece that is.2011-02-27 01:07:00

Author:
Jayhawk_er
Posts: 403

oh man, you took my idea. LOL. I was playing through my first created level (never published -- didn't have internet when built it) a couple of weeks ago and thought to myself, "this is crap, I might publish it but with a director's commentary explaining all the badness of it." I mean it's really bad, so bad it's comical.
I'll add your level to my queue when get home (dang work internet blocks signing in to LBP.me)		2011-03-04 19:21:00

Author:
biorogue
Posts: 8424

Great idea, as others have said. Jetpack is an awesome addition, so that people playing this won't quit the same way people playing the original would have! I also enjoyed flying around and seeing some of the weird ways the scenery is stuck together.

I can definitely see the "oh my god this is awesome I'm creating my own level" mentality come through like you said, ha! I think maybe the biggest point to be made about the original level is that it was a race, but contains many fiddly little areas that the player would have to inch through and most likely die on many times before even being able to progress. Hardly the fast and frantic feeling you want for a race. Not that races should never contain anything lethal, but it seems like this one would have ground to a halt fairly fast.

Anyway, nice update.		2011-03-06 06:06:00

Author:
Roo5676
Posts: 62

This is exactly what I have been looking for will queue it up to play tonight.
I have been searching for a level where people point out the design mistakes so I can learn

Great .

Thanks .		2011-03-16 17:43:00

Author:
Unknown User

The use of red and green are already ingrained into players from real life. Why wouldn't you use them?

Here's one reason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness#Red.E2.80.93green_color_blindness) . Higher contrast between the shades of the colors would work better (black/white), but as I don't have a PS3, I don't know what's possible. I was all "Wait, there are more colors of Magic Mouth than white?"		2011-03-29 13:38:00

Author:
BlackWolfe
Posts: 299

Here's one reason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness#Red.E2.80.93green_color_blindness) . Higher contrast between the shades of the colors would work better (black/white), but as I don't have a PS3, I don't know what's possible. I was all "Wait, there are more colors of Magic Mouth than white?"
First, black is not possible on hologram, and second, I wouldn't understand that black means wrong and white means good unless I was specifically told that, unlike red/green. Also, think of the low percentage of colorblind people (7 to 10%), and even then, it is usually much easier for colorblind people to distinguish color on a TV then other materials.
You can change the magic mouth color by stickering it with either solid red or solid green.		2011-06-13 02:19:00

Author:
Unknown User

Added to queue, I comment then!2011-07-28 18:35:00

Author:
Unknown User


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