Archive: 23 posts

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I sincerely apologize if this has been posted elsewhere, but I cannot find anything else on it. So anyone who's in the beta knows that sackbots cannot use the grappling hook or jet pack. My question is why?! It seems like such a simple thing! Sackbots can use power gloves and paintinators? Right? I see absolutely no reason why the should not be able to use the jet pack or the grappling hook. In fact, this puts a HUGE damper on a level I have planned out. Kinda really bummed This feels like quite a short and almost abrupt post, but theres really nothing more I can say. I mean, it's such a simple thing, I see NO reason (although obviously someone does/did) as to why sackbots are not able to use these power ups. I sincerely hope that Mm either changes this for the final game, or that I'm just greatly mistaken and have over looked something.

2011-01-10 06:47:00 Author: dr_murk Posts: 239

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I'm fairly certain that Mm didn't exclude these power ups specifically to anger you. I would assume that the AI quality of sackbots in order to use these power ups would be to intensive too not break or bug up the game. Think about how much more complex the jetpack and grapple are then the paintinator and power gloves. Jetpack requires an entire physics change and 5 directions of movement instead of 4, as does the grapple. Paintinators only need emitters in front of you, and power gloves only require close range object movement. I think this is the same reason why sackbots can't swim.

2011-01-10 07:44:00 Author: nitewalker11 Posts: 222

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If they find a way to do it without lag/bugs, they'll do it. For me though, i'd just be happy if they just let a sackbot equip them, because then you could probably at least manipulate them with logic to be able to use it in certain situations....

2011-01-10 08:21:00 Author: Matimoo Posts: 1027

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Like you said, it SEEMS, but it isn't, just think a little, the other powerups require littel to nothing A.I.-wise, its mainly to walk left and right, and jump, same reason as why they can't swim, it requires up down, diagonal, and other sort of movement. How will you be able to tell a Sackbot on a grappling Hook to swing a specific amount, or to reel in/ out? A jetpack and swimiing would require height and diagonal calculations, it is extremely more advanced A.I. than it has, believe it or not. Yeah, not as simple as it may seem, and contrary to popular belief, Sackbots are meant to be extremely basic A.I. sure you can do some things with in-game logic, but their main pourpose its to be there and replace card-board cut-outs if you think about it, not to mention it would most likely take too much termo to add all those A.I. mechanisms. So, yeah...also, this has been discussed several times already.

2011-01-10 10:24:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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my gut says that this is because of movers and gyroscopes etc... same with water which made me sad. Sometimes they intentionally limit us (mother of invention or grand vision?) but I think this was probably some massive undertaking to add real time physic calculations for and it's just not ready to add yet. Creatinator probably wouldn't have worked either if it weren't for the new ignore parent velocity settings on emitters. I remember building some logic contraption for FULLGORR to avoid drift and flinging on emitter drops, and i never thought they'd add a tweak for something so minor... they'll do it sooner or later.

2011-01-10 12:19:00 Author: Unknown User

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extremely more advanced A.I? Top down view movement does not need any extreme A.I. problem is they would need to develop new movement AI from 0. I say inclusion of swimming and jetpacks might happen problem is grabling hook that is quite random in movment

2011-01-10 12:30:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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What about the scooba gear? Are they able to venture into the depths below?

2011-01-10 12:42:00 Author: Archideas Posts: 88

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I say inclusion of swimming and jetpacks might happen problem is grabling hook That's my gut feeling as well. Swimming and jetpack really shouldn't be too difficult, though more so than basic platforming. Not because of additional directions, more because route planning model would be very different and the simplistic reactive methods that appear to be used atm (for follow waypoint etc.) wold make the sakcbots be pretty spazzy as swimmers. Also fear of hazards becomes more complex. I wouldn't be surprised to see these as a tweak in a few month's time. Grappling hook would be a real pain though as it would have to be heavily integrated with platforming AI and demand a lot of decision making. I don't see that one coming any time soon TBH. What about the scooba gear? Are they able to venture into the depths below? Current implementation of sackbots cannot swim - they electrocute on contact with water.

2011-01-10 13:25:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I understand some of the AI problems But don't you think that the sackbot should be able to use all the powerups (and even swim), when it's remote controlled by the player, as it doesn't involve AI here... I think it should be considered just as a real player in that case : player sensors, normal cameras, score bubbles...and powerups of course... I don't know if that would be so complex to make possible

2011-01-10 14:07:00 Author: dajdaj03 Posts: 1486

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I understand some of the AI problems But don't you think that the sackbot should be able to use all the powerups (and even swim), when it's remote controlled by the player, as it doesn't involve AI here... There are interface issues here though I think... Does it override the tweaks for what the sackbot may do? Or can you disable some still? If you can disable some then you'd have to have the disable grappling hook option, which is counterintuitive for a non-controlled sackbot - it wouldn't work and would appear broken. Sure I get that from a creation standpoint it would be better and I'd totally support that, but actually presenting this duality in a sensible manner to the average user (non-power user) is really kinda tricky. What would be the response if you tweaked your sackbot to allow grappling hooks, set him to follow you, then he failed miserably to use his grapple at all? I think it should be considered just as a real player in that case : player sensors, normal cameras, score bubbles I don't know if that would be so complex to make possible All can be achieved. But if you force it to be that way, it's more limiting.

2011-01-10 14:20:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Some of controlinator's tweaks disappear when it's on a sackbot(another one appears, don't forget inputs). Why can't some tweaks appear on a sackbot when it contains a controlinator set to override or when sackbot is acting?

2011-01-10 14:50:00 Author: darkphoenix Posts: 97

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@RTM223 Yeah I see, but maybe it could just be like an additional option, like a "player replacement" option, in which we could only choose the costume, the characters animation style, size head and the face expression... all the other (AI) options would be disabled. I really didn't think of it more than that, but that would be a very cool possibilitie.., to just being able to replace (visually) the real player(s) with your own created character(s) without the powerups limits and such.

2011-01-10 14:51:00 Author: dajdaj03 Posts: 1486

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@RTM223 maybe it could just be like an additional option, like a "player replacement" option, in which we could only choose the costume, the characters animation style, size head and the face expression... all the other (AI) options would be disabled. This is EXACTLY what I was thinking. All I want is to be able to use the sackbot as a player. (In the level I'm designing, I just want to be able to remotely remove the grappling hook from the player using logic and an input into the controllinator. I was also hoping to do some cool grappling hook+jet pack co-op stuff, but I'll have to wait on all of that it appears, unless I decide just to do it with sackboys and not sackbots.) I could really care less about NPC's using these power ups, and I totally agree, the AI would probably be nightmare, but I still think we should be able to use them if the sackbot is just a player character. Actually, something that might solve each of these problems- why can't we just be given the ability to change the setting of each player (1-4) just like we do each sackbot? Custom animations, size, outfit, control input from logic, power ups etc etc. Would take quite a lot of work on Mm's part, but I think it would be a valuable addition to the game. Would save the hassle of using other sackbots and forcing each player into their own controllinator, thats for sure. I can just imagine a different tab in the "Tool's Bag" for "players" in which you can change the setting and possibly even starting place for each character. Not sure about you guys, but sounds like a good idea to me.

2011-01-10 16:31:00 Author: dr_murk Posts: 239

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Actually, something that might solve each of these problems- why can't we just be given the ability to change the setting of each player (1-4) just like we do each sackbot? ... I can just imagine a different tab in the "Tool's Bag" for "players" in which you can change the setting and possibly even starting place for each character. Not sure about you guys, but sounds like a good idea to me. It certainly is a good idea if the ONLY purpose was to give us more and more awesome tools, but MM has other considerations they are trying to balance also, and I think they are doing a great job of it. For instance, preserving the 'feel' of LBP, and also keeping create mode basic for the basics but with fun-to-discover workarounds and tricks for the advanced. That said, I admit I would like more and more awesome tools everyday, and public properties for player-sacks would be great. (ps: player-sacks? p-sacks? packs? packbots? playerbots? What is the correct retronym for player-controlled sackfolk? Hey sounds like a good thread...)

2011-01-10 17:06:00 Author: snarkwise Posts: 53

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In the meanwhile, there are always substitutes that can be created. I'm sure someone made a sackbot grappling hook already, so some lovely person may give those out, and a jetpack is fairly easy to make too. Not perfect, but it'll have to do.

2011-01-10 20:11:00 Author: Fish94 Posts: 554

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Keep in mind, the sackbot is just partially controlled by its A.I. at some degree and can still be overrwritten even while the player's controlling it, so even while controlled its still just the sackbot, giving it access to abilities when being controlled would mean giving the abilities all the time. WHat if you're using a jetpack, or underwater and suddendly leave the controllinator, does the sackbot spontaneously electrocute/ drop for no reason? What if you have toe power up to "cannot drop"? Remember, players will most likely not try and play "by the rules" and attempt to break it a lot as well. @rtm: Yeah. its not "Extremely" advanced, but it is quite advanced in comparison to the current Sackbot's A.I. which was what I mean, and I was trying to group together the Grappling Hook and swimming/ Jetpack together, and Grappling hook is way more advanced than the other two, you also agree on that.

2011-01-10 20:13:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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Keep in mind, the sackbot is just partially controlled by its A.I. at some degree and can still be overrwritten even while the player's controlling it, so even while controlled its still just the sackbot, giving it access to abilities when being controlled would mean giving the abilities all the time. WHat if you're using a jetpack, or underwater and suddendly leave the controllinator, does the sackbot spontaneously electrocute/ drop for no reason? What if you have toe power up to "cannot drop"? Remember, players will most likely not try and play "by the rules" and attempt to break it a lot as well. It will simply switch to idle, like it always did. It's creator of level job to control what player can or don't, if you don't want him to eject (as you should do when you use sackbot as player) you don't plugging wire to eject input. Fact is they can't allow sackbot to swim or use jet by default for level compatibility reasons, for sure they will need to add tweak for that @rtm: Yeah. its not "Extremely" advanced, but it is quite advanced in comparison to the current Sackbot's A.I. which was what I mean, and I was trying to group together the Grappling Hook and swimming/ Jetpack together, and Grappling hook is way more advanced than the other two, you also agree on that It doesn't matter, it can be separated AI module activated when he is in water or jet pack, besides swimming+walking AI is nothing new in gaming

2011-01-10 21:26:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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It will simply switch to idle, like it always did. It's creator of level job to control what player can or don't, if you don't want him to eject (as you should do when you use sackbot as player) you don't plugging wire to eject input. Fact is they can't allow sackbot to swim or use jet by default for level compatibility reasons, for sure they will need to add tweak for that It doesn't matter, it can be separated AI module activated when he is in water or jet pack, besides swimming+walking AI is nothing new in gaming ....whgat are you talking about...I think you completly misunderstood/ misread what I wrotte, m8. O_o

2011-01-10 21:38:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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I would be absolutely fine if these were limited because of incapability. My concern is that Mm said sackbots can "do everything Sackboy can and more!".

2011-01-10 22:06:00 Author: Frinklebumper Posts: 941

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I am not concerned about jetpack or grappling hook but I am concerned about swimming. See those two are easy to replicate by other means but swimming cannot as they die when touching water. If they only would add waterproofness option in sackbot menu and I would be happy. With that option they wouldn't need even make AI for swimming as the sackbot would only sink if not controlled by player.

2011-01-11 06:17:00 Author: waD_Delma Posts: 282

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hhhmmmm... this is quite sad, isnt it... they cant use some of the best power ups in the game... or swim. oh, and its a bit off topic, but can a controllinator control somehting that its in not attached to... like controlling a sackbot from a controllinator attached to a block of sponge?

2011-01-12 08:02:00 Author: Riolu17 Posts: 38

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....whgat are you talking about...I think you completly misunderstood/ misread what I wrotte, m8. O_o Then what you talking about? you said what happens when sackboy leave controllinator and they got jet or water... they will be idle.

2011-01-12 13:49:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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I know I am jumping in kind of late in this post, but I have been experimenting with sackbot jetpacks recently and decided to search and see if anything came up. Although sackbots cannot use a regular jetpack, they can be equipped with movers or advanced movers (and a smoke machine for effect) which you could map to a button, like R2. The logic all depends on what kind of jetpack you are looking for, I've been using a limited energy jetpack, but it could be set to continuous by using a toggle. With this set up, sackbots can fly while using any of the power-ups they can use at the same time.

2011-04-29 03:22:00 Author: Unknown User

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