Archive: 23 posts

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Me and Clay often focussed on experimental and overly complex contraptions/puzzles/gameplay.. But I also noticed that a lot of ppl (even in the beta) are not able/smart enough to use their brain on even a simple explanation on how something work. "Jump in the wheel, hold grab.. then hold left or right on the left ana.log stick and jump a few times" and still people had trouble making it through. So I would like some pointers from people who like their levels easy, hard and everything in between.. whats the best way to keep people playing the level (preferable over and over again) and still being able to have complex contraptions and other gameplay related scenario's.

2011-01-08 17:29:00 Author: Luos_83 Posts: 2136

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Taming the Ignorant: 1. Use a "Hint Hot-Key" of some sort. Which, you've already done before. 2. Use picture symbols for the ones who cannot read, or who are too lazy to do so. 3. Ignore the ignorant. If they can't figure out the clues and flat-out obvious, it's really their fault. Not yours. Sometimes it's good to forget and... forget. ......

2011-01-08 17:36:00 Author: piggabling Posts: 2979

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Well with a bit of logic you could probably do a difficulty changer. Also, the player would no doubt come back to play it on a harder difficulty, the next time round.

2011-01-08 17:40:00 Author: TehUberZac Posts: 587

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Well with a bit of logic you could probably do a difficulty changer. Also, the player would no doubt come back to play it on a harder difficulty, the next time round. Agreed, a difficulty changer would work to an extent. When you have difficult platforming sections and such, but that's not going to increase anyone's brain activity...

2011-01-08 17:44:00 Author: piggabling Posts: 2979

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I think the biggest problem when making a level a bit tricky, is that people are too lazy to read, or are in a big hurry to rush through the level as fast as they can. If they can't figure it out right off, or they die a couple of times they quit. I've tried to make my levels easier, but people still won't stick with it. I just want to say that your levels are such good quality that you shouldn't dumb them down to make them more mainstream. It would be a shame....

2011-01-08 18:39:00 Author: smasher Posts: 641

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Personally I thought that the little explanation wasn't even needed. I already knew what to do from watching the sackbots. But if they don't get it even after that, then they just won't get anything I don't think. It's a wheel, figure out how to spin it. You have some of the best levels and definitely in my top 5 creators. To see your levels lose quality in order to keep dumb or lazy players interested would really be a great loss to the community who enjoy a challenging, interesting environment. If everything was pointed out and easy it wouldn't even be very fun to play. I say keep up the good work.

2011-01-08 19:48:00 Author: Kitkasumass Posts: 494

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I like to put a dim pulsating light made by a magkey switch set to speed and a piston to show the area a players should focus on. Another good idea is having a timer set to a speech bubble, so if you don't figure out an obstacle, it gives you a hint after say 30 seconds. Or you can have the camera point to an area of interest. It all depends on which fits your level best. And for those hard platforming areas, maybe put an alternate route, and make the hard route more rewarding if completed.

2011-01-08 20:04:00 Author: iBubek Posts: 682

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Speech bubbles are usually not read or ignored, my sister can impulsively close them before they open completely. This is because they are everywhere and they rarely provide any help, they can even detract from the level's atmosphere. Try putting some arrows down, and making them move.

2011-01-08 20:45:00 Author: ThisDudeRufus Posts: 170

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Well, people are complaining that my new level is too confusing because they don't read the text bubbles. One noob called it 'dumb' and 'impossible' :I And some people were asking me to make some harder puzzles >_< So it's really hard to keep everyone happy.

2011-01-08 21:18:00 Author: Radishlord Posts: 706

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Yup, that's the truth. Like I said in another thread like this recently, you have to pick your audience. One thing I can add though: make sure the player knows what he's supposed to do (but not necessarily how he's supposed to do it).

2011-01-08 21:43:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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: make sure the player knows what he's supposed to do (but not necessarily how he's supposed to do it). Hopefully I've done that, my level has massive green rooms that you're aiming to get to

2011-01-08 21:54:00 Author: Radishlord Posts: 706

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- Shortcuts. - Automaticly pass them through there. - Or now in LBP2, emmit a Sackbot, and set it to show how its done.

2011-01-08 22:56:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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Visual hints are always better than written ones. But, you can't please everyone. I say keep it at the difficulty you like.

2011-01-09 03:48:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

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I say keep challenging them... I never once picked up a game and sat down with no anticipation whatsoever thinking, "Wow-- I hope I've done this all before!" I mean how many spinning wheels-- completely alien and non-sensical to it's surroundings-- can one sack spin on? Try to make it as idiot proof as possible using all the tricks in the book, always keep the player in mind, and then do what it is you do!

2011-01-09 06:00:00 Author: Gravel Posts: 1308

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I'm not sure you can have your cake and eat it when the ability range of players is so broad. Overdo the handholding and you risk boring the more experienced players, while anything with complexity will just be too much like hard work for some - there's really not a 'right' way to do it. The only thing you can do is listen to the feedback and make a call on adjusting where you see fit. I played the mechanic you're talking about and had no trouble with it myself, but if it's causing problems for a lot of people (and that bothers you), then I'd just do a few test runthroughs with players that haven't done it, and see where it's going wrong. There's nought as useful as watching a player go through your level in a completely different way that you'd anticipated. As for replayable levels, for me, the ones I always come back to several times are generally ones that don't go on too long, are score based, barely any text/cut scenes and are snappy with the action. I appreciate and enjoy the epic longer story levels more, but tend not to replay most of them that much unless they've managed to really jampack a lot of fun stuff amongst all the text and cinematics.

2011-01-09 14:42:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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Your technique in the beh'ta levels where the sackbots perform the action in a preliminary cutscene, and then you are tasked to do it, is a great way to ease the players into the swing of things. Also, if people aren't doing the right thing, symbols (like R1s, arrows, lighting etc) are great ways to attract attention, as well as score bubbles (if you can draw the player to the right area with a cluster of bubbles they're more likely to work out what to do). If, even with all that cajoling they still can't work out what to do, then frankly they're a little silly and their "dumb" and "impossible" opinions shouldn't mean squat to you.

2011-01-09 19:25:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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Well you could add some prizes, if the player reaches the end of the level and doesn't have all of them they might go back to get them all. Make sure the players involved all the time: make sure they always have something to think about, maybe this is just personal preference but keep the cut scenes on the short side or remove them all together. Hope I helped

2011-01-09 22:44:00 Author: MasterCreator Posts: 464

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maybe this is just personal preference but keep the cut scenes on the short side or remove them all together. Lol, thats not gonna happen. for lbp2 i am rewriting the story of "Sack, The legendary" and a story it will be. Most levels will have at least several minutes of cutscenes, and the overal "game" will probably have close to an hour of cutscenes (all skip-able though) there is a good chance that the average level will have near 50 lines of txt, Hopefully packed in dynamic cut-scenes that will hold peoples attention... if not.. they can skip them. Obviously other levels (and series) I will be making will not rely on heavy and long cutscenes, but Sack, the legendary will be a story. __ On that note, thanks for all the comments and advice so far Keep it coming!

2011-01-10 13:11:00 Author: Luos_83 Posts: 2136

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What?! Scale back difficulty?! Ive played the lvl you put a reference to and I would say its too dumbed down in my opinion. You cant go anywhere while over there so through the process of elimination, players should figure it out eventually. I though games were meant to challenge as you progress anyway. I would keep going as you two were already and stay your course. Thier good the way they are imo...but this is coming from a creator whose last lvl had a completion rate of 6.07% so i guess ill be considered the hardcore player.

2011-01-10 15:52:00 Author: L1GhTmArE Posts: 519

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Well, back in the days, I loved my games hard and sometimes even near impossible. (I love comph's Roller.inc for that) Heck I was never able to get through the 3th level of super R-Type, but still loved the game. Same as I love abes oddesy and exodus, but back in the day I was not able to finish it. Now after sooo many years, I am finally able to understand the game and near a 100% completion. Nowadays.. almost everything is so obvious it kind of hurts, even God of war and Drakes fortune are a victim of this, showing you the way, even if its as obvious as just turning around and jumping to a ledge. Now sometimes I can dig this, but not in the fashion is has been done the past few years, If they show me where to go, there's gotta be a maze/contraption/puzzle between me and the goal. And even though i.e. Drakes journal is a nice addition, It practically solves everything for you.. And since most companies focus on either younger and/or dumber gamers, (not saying that young gamers are dumb, or dumb gamers are young.. obviously there are old dumb gamers, and epic young gamers) they tend to make the gameplay easier, and even dumber... or.. to say it more propper.. They make it more accessible for non gamers.. more mainstream... I mean, when playing as Kratos, it feels like mommy is holding my hand and guiding me through every corner, now its gameplay/story//visuals kinda make up for that.. but it feels wrong. omg "back in the day" clay told me once.. Luos.. if you go "back in the day" it means your old. I feel so old right now :/ I would almost start my level with a form players have to fill in, if someone fails hard at it, ill direct the play towards a bombsurvival instead of my own levels

2011-01-10 18:29:00 Author: Luos_83 Posts: 2136

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Well, back in the days, I loved my games hard and sometimes even near impossible. (I love comph's Roller.inc for that) I only got that level complete on my 3rd seperate attempt at it. Difficulty is fun, so long as its presented well. I couldn't stand some of the condescending banter that went on in LBPC a while ago when self-proclaimed 'hardcore' LBP players were worried about LBP2 potentially patching out the corner jump bug. The problem with all of the 'hardcore' levels they cited as good examples, were horrible to look at! Giant grid blocks of electric glass and overbright lights in a contrast neon environment... Horrible stuff. Which is why I am more patient with luos, comph's and jump_buttons levels, because if they stump me straight away then I want to work out how to get past it rather than just rage quit.

2011-01-10 18:47:00 Author: Asbestos101 Posts: 1114

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If I ever get stuck in one of their levels I don't rage quit, I just take the stickers off everything and see the ins and outs of how they decorated the scenery . I do think it's important to make your levels *somewhat* accessible in LBP2 because of the main demographic of players of the game. But none of the puzzles in the beh'ta series are beyond my eight year old cousins, even if it did take them a while to work them out, and I think that's cos you got the balance right between accessibility and difficulty. o next time you get people attacking your levels because they're "dumb" or "impossible" just tell 'em that eight-year-olds beat it without a problem. That should shut em up.

2011-01-10 21:50:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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Hmm, maybe I should take up a few sugar-ed up kids as testers for my level

2011-01-10 23:39:00 Author: Luos_83 Posts: 2136

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