Archive: 32 posts

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Well, I hope this fits in with this forum, so.. I was talking to someone in LBP1, and I had said that I'd like to make my own type of top down RPG when LBP2 comes out. He had told me it was already done in the beta and not to make one. But, I myself think that it doesn't really matter. I'd LOVE to see a type of game remade in another creator's eyes, and the techniques they used in it, even if it's similar to another one. Heck, someone might even make a type of new trick in their level that another one didn't use, and then another creator using that idea for the same or another trick in their own level. My point is, should we really care if another player "takes their concept", even if it's changed dramatically?

2010-11-18 01:41:00 Author: Tmjtk Posts: 258

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Course not. There can't just be one level in each genre. If you put effort into it, and its what YOU wanna make, then do it. Being made by one or two other people doesn't mean you can't. The more, the better, after all :kz:

2010-11-18 01:48:00 Author: RockSauron Posts: 10882

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"Top-Down RPG", in my eyes, can never be claimed as someone's 'idea'. It's a type of game, and not a game in itself. So in other words, no, we shouldn't.

2010-11-18 01:49:00 Author: Frinklebumper Posts: 941

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Course not. There can't just be one level in each genre. If you put effort into it, and its what YOU wanna make, then do it. Being made by one or two other people doesn't mean you can't. The more, the better, after all :kz: "Top-Down RPG", in my eyes, can never be claimed as someone's 'idea'. It's a type of game, and not a game in itself. So in other words, no, we shouldn't. Exactly as I thought. And yet some people think that it's taking an idea or concept. I mean, it's not like people won't make a racing game just because someone else made one.

2010-11-18 01:54:00 Author: Tmjtk Posts: 258

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Don't listen to them. If only one person can make a top down RPG, then the system is broken. It would deserve to be skinned and broiled alive. Anywho, MAKE THAT FRAKKING RPG :kz: It'll be tough no matter what, so even if you take some stuff from other things, anything you do would be more then enough to justify it being yours. And sides, not like there won't be tons of platformers. Are THEY rip offs? So yeah, make your RPG. MAke it good, like, real good. And make it have rockets and stuff. Rockets like RPGs. Did I mention RPGs? Anywho, ARR PEE GEE /runs

2010-11-18 01:59:00 Author: RockSauron Posts: 10882

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Don't listen to them. If only one person can make a top down RPG, then the system is broken. It would deserve to be skinned and broiled alive. Anywho, MAKE THAT FRAKKING RPG :kz: It'll be tough no matter what, so even if you take some stuff from other things, anything you do would be more then enough to justify it being yours. And sides, not like there won't be tons of platformers. Are THEY rip offs? So yeah, make your RPG. MAke it good, like, real good. And make it have rockets and stuff. Rockets like RPGs. Did I mention RPGs? Anywho, ARR PEE GEE /runs Lol, don't worry, i'll make sure there will be RPG's! I'll have some guy in a dark alley say "Hey kid, I heard you want some... RPG's..."

2010-11-18 02:02:00 Author: Tmjtk Posts: 258

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Of course not, there are only so many prime gameplay mechanics out there. It's probably bad taste to make carbon copies and claim it as original, but things as vague as "spinny platforms" or "RPG" etc. of course people are bound to have it in common, if even unintentionally.

2010-11-18 02:02:00 Author: Foofles Posts: 2278

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There can never be enough levels ...except shark survival levels or fake DLC levels, of course LBP has more than enough of these in my opinion And also, creating a RPG even though somebody else already did isn't copying or stealing ideas

2010-11-18 02:18:00 Author: iArekusu Posts: 402

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Your friend is talking nonsense

2010-11-18 02:18:00 Author: SeanyC-SeanyDo Posts: 115

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There can never be enough levels ...except shark survival levels or fake DLC levels, of course LBP has more than enough of these in my opinion And also, creating a RPG even though somebody else already did isn't copying or stealing ideas Yeah, anything but those. Or even worse; Shark Survival's that promise fake DLC. D:

2010-11-18 04:41:00 Author: Tmjtk Posts: 258

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Just make any level you like and don't worry about what other people think. You should only pay attention to constructive feedback. Making levels is the best way to become a better creator. Even if a level or concept has already been done by someone else, it's still going to be a challenge for you to make the level, and you'll learn from that experience.

2010-11-18 04:58:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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Yeah, as long as you're not blatantly ripping someone off then you should feel fine about doing levels in the same genre that has already been done.

2010-11-18 06:28:00 Author: Jaeyden Posts: 564

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RPG is just a genre, story and characters and gameplay systems is different story, so you are free to do your own top-down RPG Besides there few side-scrolling RPGs concepts in beta and no body care if it's same genre

2010-11-18 13:08:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Tell your friend not to do a sidescrolling platformer level as it's been done to death

2010-11-18 13:17:00 Author: SeanyC-SeanyDo Posts: 115

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My point is, should we really care if another player "takes their concept", even if it's changed dramatically? I always find it funny when people copy an existing game concept into LBP and then claim they own it, as if they invented the original game itself. As if going down your row of PS games and seeing which would be cool to rebuild in LBP is such a creative enterprise. No, the creativity lies in how you make the transition to LBP. If someone does a bad job of that translation, not doing justice to the original, it's only right for someone else to come in and do it better.

2010-11-18 13:37:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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I always find it funny when people copy an existing game concept into LBP and then claim they own it. I find it disturbing how often that happens. We've even had people here start threads venting about how people had stolen "their" concept when it was essentially a direct port from another game. But in answer to the OPs question, yes we should. But only if it is an original concept of theirs. If it's not their original concept, you aren't infringing on them by doing the same thing. something as generic as a top-down RPG falls well outside of the realms of something that the creator can consider their exclusive idea.

2010-11-18 13:46:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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You're moving into trickier territory there, paralleling patents and copyright in the real world. There's already a lot of discussion there on how far and wide these protections should stretch, and whether they are still relevant in this day and age. And then there's the question if we want to apply these rules straight to LBP (I believe Mm doesn't: Play Create Share), and if we can. Patents serve to allow companies to cash in on their research investments, but since LBP is cashless, that purpose is lost. What is left is recognition of the inventor, and I think that will stand without any moral rules. I'm not condoning people literally copying other people's levels, but if someone plays a level and gets inspiration how to improve on the concept, why not? This way, we can all build on eachothers work and push the boundaries of LBP.

2010-11-18 14:58:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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As long as you dont call it the same thing as another persons RPG level and dont have a particular gameplay item blatantly ripped off from someones level then its fine, of course people are going to get angry if you steal something big from their level but otherwise dont worry

2010-11-18 15:16:00 Author: Skalio- Posts: 920

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You're moving into trickier territoy there, paralleling patents and copyright in the real world. Not really, technically you give up all legal rights upon publishing, so any trickiness of that territory would be removed by the EULA. What I'm saying is that we should stick to the fundamental concepts of copyright law for the simple fact that it's respectful to other creators to do so. If you copy the overarching concepts, then thats far enough removed to be reasonable. If you copy someone's scenery, their characters, whole sections of their plots or the look and feel of the gameplay mechanics, then you are a jerk, regardless of what the EULA states. "Improving on the concept" is not necessarily enough to justify ripping someone off (though it depends largely on what that particular concept is)

2010-11-18 15:42:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Patents serve to allow companies to cash in on their research investments, but since LBP is cashless, that purpose is lost. What is left is recognition of the inventor I've always scoffed at this point. Not that I disagree with you, but I think some people seem to place too much value on recognition. I don't think I've ever seen the most recognized creators campaign for recognition: Jackofcourse doesn't go around telling people not to steal his ideas, Kimiski doesn't tell people not to use the pseye effectively (on the contrary, she's made a handful of posts telling exactly how she does it so that other people can "steal" her idea), Rtm doesn't tell people not to "steal" his logic devices or not to try to improve upon them and he doesn't seem threatened when an idea comes from somebody else, and I could keep going but I think that's enough. I've never seen any of the creators I just listed or any of the others that I consider the "best creators" do anything that I considered campaigning for notoriety. To my mind, they create because they enjoy it and they share because they think we'll enjoy it. I'm sure the popular creators don't mind being popular (although the constant psn friend requests from strangers can get annoying), and they might even enjoy it, but there's really no rewards to it. If anything, it can actually be a bit of a downer--people are always clamoring for or even demanding your next release or for you to give away whatever you built and so on. In short, internet notoriety isn't something that I consider worth aspiring to... or at least it's not worth getting all worked up over and if it's the reason you create, then you probably don't deserve it. As for "stealing" ideas, I'm all for it. I'm kind of known as the "mech guy" but I wonder if most people know that I "stole" pretty much all of my ideas. I started building mechs after seeing a Metal Gear Rex shortly after lbp came out: it was cool but didn't work that well so I stole the idea and started building my own. I stole my walking mechanic from a guy named RedFoxDude, and I stole my tilt sensor from Asmadon (both were mech creators). To be clear, they shared their techniques with me, but the point is that my mechs (which are still kind of meh overall) would be complete crap if I hadn't "stolen" and improved upon the ideas of other creators. My level, War of Souls, has been generally well received though it doesn't have the huge play counts of the more popular levels, and it's just a fusion of ideas I stole from "Soul Reaver" and "The Red Star" (the graphic novel, not the crappy video game). Still, as Rtm says, don't be a jerk about it. Duplicating large amounts of scenery or story from another creator's level probably isn't a good idea unless you talk it over with them first. I would even say that gameplay is fair game for stealing, though I would personally try to put my own twist or improvements on it.

2010-11-18 16:16:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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no, it doesn't. "no idea is original, there's nothing new under the sun/it's never what you do, but how it's done" people are very easily impressed by a good idea, but it's not until someone combines good ideas with quality and polish in every other aspect that the idea has any merit for me. it's like a permanent switch with nothing to activate. i can't help but go 'oh that idea comes from [whoever]' but it doesn't detract from the overall experience in any way, and the credit that the person deserves for a quality product. who matters more, the guitarist or the company that makes the guitar? besides, top down rpg's are nothing new. action rpgs like a link to the past, alundra, legend of oasis, illusion of gaia, hercs adventure, blood omen etc are my absolute favorite types of games, as well as sidescrolling hybrids like the oft debated metroid, faxanadua, symphony of the night, ysIII, popful mail etc. i can't wait to play the slowly evolving benchmarks for this genre on LBP2, and try making my own. i'm literally going to see if I can pull off a zelda NES build (overworld level hub trickery), and go from there. i'm in no rush to be 'first' especially since the beta is finite. unlike LBP1 i don't think i'll be able to do anything in LBP2 without looking to others for progressive ideas - we'll all be making what's essentially middleware for others.

2010-11-18 16:23:00 Author: Unknown User

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To be clear, I was talking about morality, not law or EULA's. What I'm saying is that we should stick to the fundamental concepts of copyright law for the simple fact that it's respectful to other creators to do so. If you copy the overarching concepts, then thats far enough removed to be reasonable. If you copy someone's scenery, their characters, whole sections of their plots or the look and feel of the gameplay mechanics, then you are a jerk... Yes, it would be good manners to ask (or at least notify) the creator before willfully using one of his concepts. But condemning copying in the way you do just supports those rants about "He copied my tree, it looks almost the same! / No, I had one like that sitting on my moon forever!", "I already made a comic story about rescueing a princess!" and "You can't do yellow hologram swooshes while jumping, I did it already!". First of all, it's a big quagmire that I'd rather stay away from. Secondly, everything has been done before anyway. And finally, so what? Who gets hurt? Maybe the most important thing is the creator's intent. Are you copying something because you just want to ride along on its popularity, or because it inspired some new ideas in you?

2010-11-18 16:46:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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no idea is original In fairness, this statement is completely accurate, but it's exactly the sort of thing that tends to lead to a large amount of confusion over what is acceptable behaviour and where the line (or hazy grey area, as it truly is) resides between inspiration and rip-off. It's also often used as a simple excuse for a lack of ability to create anything original (as defined as something along the lines of combining various influences with personal flair in a unique manner) and a green light for wholesale rip-offs. I know you know the difference Ninja, it's just that seemingly a lot of people in the community don't @Rogar: Sticking by the fundamental tennants of what is considered acceptable in the real world doesn't open up the "I did a specific effect, therefore no-one else can use it", because that's not how the real world works. Yeah it's a grey area, but saying no-one gets hurt from wholesale rip-offs of artist works is completely naive.

2010-11-18 16:51:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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"I did a specific effect, therefore no-one else can use it" to me seems to be the essence of software patents, but let's not go there. I wasn't really thinking of wholesale rip-offs, and I agree those aren't very nice, but even then (playing devil's advocate), tell me who gets hurt? If it's a good copy it will take time, and the original creator gets to enjoy that time being the only one with the level. And if it's a bad copy, we'll just chuckle about it for a bit. I don't think the original level will lose any plays or hearts for it, so what else is there?

2010-11-18 17:22:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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i know, i just have no idea how to really put the difference into words or convey common sense. ingredients vs recipe books. nobody owns ingredients, but people do have signature recipes... but you can start with a recipe, and still make it into something else. a good comparison of theme might be nattura's Lost Tomb of Anubis and poms new level Lost Pharaoh - Egypt is not an intellectual property. Their executions, intents, design, mechanics, atmosphere, lighting, gameplay are almost totally different. both use staples of good LBP design in their respective arenas. Those are techniques it would be foolish not to have in LBP. now if i make an egypt level, and i do the exact same layer-glitch pyramids from poms level, it'd be pretty obvious i just snagged it from poms. it's not that he invented pyramids, or the layer glitch it's that he did something fresh with it and if i'm making my own egypt... am I making my own version of pom's level, or my own egypt level? do I have to do my pyramid like that? no. i probably would have a pyramid somewhere. do I have to have bouncing crocodile heads? no,but crocodiles and the nile are not far removed conceptually. the physics based, reactive platform mechanisms in it? that's just a staple of LBP platformer design. Chances are some variation of that is going to be in any level.

2010-11-18 17:26:00 Author: Unknown User

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With the number of people in the littlebigplanet community, few people are really innovators. Inspiration comes from other levels: that's just natural. In the end there's only so many combinations of running, jumping and grabbing! While it may be a bit below the belt to copy concept after concept from a single level, copying a single aspect of a level is fine. Often its unintentional! In the words of Pablo Picasso: "Bad artists copy, good artists steal". While Picasso quotes may not be entirely relevant, I think the importance is in how you implement an idea. People will more impressed by original ideas anyway, so there's nothing to worry about really!

2010-11-18 17:53:00 Author: chimpskylark Posts: 335

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As I see it, this is just a video game. Sure, it's respectful and wrong to take someone's idea, copy it, and call it your own, but the truth it, it's going to happen and it's hard to stop. And frankly, I don't think it should matter as much as is does to so many people. Adding to Rogar's point, there is no money involved, which everyone persues. There's nothing to win, nothing to gain, and really no one to please but yourself. What do you really lose if your idea is taken? What does the other person really gain? In my opinion, nothing, abeit a few digital hearts and smiley faces. So, I say go out, create for yourself, hope others enjoy it, and don't give a crap if someone takes your idea. Like I said somewhere else before, if you put up your original level here, you (along with the members here) really do know who made it first.

2010-11-18 18:18:00 Author: piggabling Posts: 2979

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Tell your friend not to do a sidescrolling platformer level as it's been done to death Quoted for it's truthfulness and hilarity. I'm in agreeance with everyone else on this. I'd also like to point out that even if someone did a specific type of RPG (let's say... a Spiderman RPG - just to be ridiculous but make a point), I still don't think there'd be anything wrong with doing a Spiderman RPG of your own. There's several reasons for this. FIrst, they already "stole" the idea from a major franchise so it's not "their" property to stake a claim to. Secondly, many people playing and creating share the same ideas... so who's to say you may not have always wanted to make a Spiderman RPG as well? Maybe someone just got theirs published first due to time constraints or other factors. As already stated, as long as you aren't going in and doing the exact same things as the other persons level, then I see nothing wrong with it. There's been plenty of Mario Bro.'s levels, plenty of Star Wars levels, etc. etc. I like playing them all to see what people did differently or how they re-created the same iconic images better. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Your friend is simply wrong about the whole thing. Now.... copying someone elses "original" work is a different animal altogether in my books. If someone comes up with unique and original characters, vehicle designs, story arc, etc., I think that should be a "hands off" situation. Obviously, someone has spent a lot of time and effort coming up with their own unique game elements in order to try and stand out from the community... and that should be respected. I think it's okay to be inspired by someone elses work, but one can usually tell when someone has gone in and blatantly ripped off someone elses character idea, vehicle design, or any other specific machine or object in someone elses level. I'm working on some material right now that was originally conceived outside of LBP and years before the game even released. I'm personally a bit worried about bringing it into the game for several reasons. Firstly, I'd hate to see someone try and "steal" my concept, characters, or designs and possibly try to prophet from them outside of LBP (the work is actually intended to be published in either a television series, film, or graphic novel format). I've got everything documented, and any artists work is automatically copywritten on the moment of creation as long as proof can be presented (which I can). Secondly, while I'd be somewhat flattered to have people trying to emulate my style and designs... I'd really rather people just left it alone and respect and appreciate what I have built for their enjoyment. I didn't need a creative partner to come up with the stuff originally, so why would I want a bunch of people trying to copy my stuff and re-publish it after the fact, right? That being said, as long as money isn't being made from someone copying and reproducing my work.... I don't really have a way of forcing them to stop it. Everyone here will know that I'm the original creator and that those copy/pasting my work are just useless chumps who have nothing better to do than to try and get recognition for something that's not theirs.

2010-11-18 19:28:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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Well, I thought about creating levels waaay before LBP even released, and made one once it did, so creating levels was my idea and no one else should make them w/out giving me credit.

2010-11-18 20:09:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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No, it's fine to 'copy' a level and change. Copying it exactly, however, is a big no-no.

2010-11-18 20:29:00 Author: kirbyman62 Posts: 1893

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This has never really been a concern with me anyway, if I've ever been inspired by other people it's been subconsciously, I like to make ideas, contraptions etc from scratch. Since I was 7 I've been making video game ideas in my head (although up until 15ish looking back at my super secret game design notebooks my ideas seemed to be heavily inspired by whatever my favourite game at the time was). I like to create a unique world for each level. My first was The Wizards Tower where you're a sky pirate who drops anchor on a clod with a giant tower on it, the lower 1/3rd was cardboard and housed slaves who worked the traps, the middle was stone and housed the gaurds, then a metal labyrinth of traps and a golden spire where the wizard lives. Shoot or sneak was a level where you could go through the front door all guns balzing then restart and sneak through the ducts instead. Torment was a horror level where you're haunted by a floating babies head which turns out to be the delusions of a coma patient who caused a mother and child to die in a car accident when he was rushing to work. Why remake Sonic Greenhill Zone 1 a million times (although I think the highest quality adaptions deserve a place in LBP) when you can bring something new to the table.

2010-11-18 20:55:00 Author: SeanyC-SeanyDo Posts: 115

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Thanks for the feedback, guys. I agree with pretty much all of it, my only problem is that people are starting to act like if a level is done with certain mechanics, it's copying it if you even try to make one. I do hate the fact most people copy things without changing them, but claiming a level "copied" because a car or game idea seems or looks almost identical seems odd, since LBP2 isn't even OUT yet. Anyway, hopefully some of those people will read what everyone posted! Thanks.

2010-11-19 01:59:00 Author: Tmjtk Posts: 258

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