Archive: 18 posts

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Recently, everyone seems a bit fearful of the infamous God Glitch (see here) (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=39365-God-Glitch-is-leaking). Everyone is concerned about inappropriate uses (griefing, stealing community levels, or unnecessarily republishing story levels). But, I haven't seen anyone sharing anything that they've learned from tearing apart and analyzing Mm's own levels (which to me was the only obvious use after I figured out it had happened to me). If I had the spare time, I'd put together a tutorial level with examples from the actual Mm story levels, but I don't see that happening any time soon. I figured I COULD take the time to mention some of my observations (and for others to chime in as appropriate). 1. Since Schrader already published a copyable version of Tower of Whoop, I recommend anyone that is anxious about how to implement the new logic go copy the level and work to understand how Mm uses the new features. For example: a. Instead of hunks of dark matter, almost every object in the level uses anti-gravity modifiers set to 100% anti-gravity and 100% dampening. Permanent switches are simply a counter set to 1. Interestingly, the entire level only fills 75% of the thermometer. b. To get Da Vinci to look at the player, the level starts off with a floating tag on a hologram labeled "Player 1". The tag is set to follow the player, Da Vinci is set to look at the tag. c. When the player goes behind the front layer, a global audio setting is changed to increase the amount of echo (subtle, but a great effect!). d. At the simplest level, the vending machine is an "and" gate, checking to see if the player is present and has achieved a high enough score. Timers are thrown in to set off different effects. To eject the prize bubbles, blocks under the bubbles are dissolved. The bubbles are set to move forward one layer as soon as they hit the bottom of the machine. e. Somewhere in the level there is a dog that bobs his head. Instead of a piston, Mm used a timer, toggle, and direction combiner. When the toggle is positive, a mover is triggered in the positive direction. When the toggle is negative, a not gate (through the negative on the direction combiner) ensures the mover is triggered in the negative direction. 2. Looking at the other two levels provides more insight. I recommend looking for the arcade machines that others have captured and published to analyze how those effects were accomplished. Most of the logic is comprised of and gates and impact switches, used to determine whether or not a hologram (e.g., a Pong ball) has impacted another object (e.g., the right wall... labeled with a named colored tag). 3. A prize is awarded at the end of the factory level based on the number of sackbots present. Each sackbot simply has a blue tag labeled "I am a sackbot". 20 different tag sensors are present (on a microchip), with each set to require a different number of sackbots (e.g., require 5 tags). Based on the output of those tag sensors, or gates and selectors are used to display the exact number of sackbots present and to award a prize. 4. None of the sequences that I've found... (except perhaps the spaceship being attacked... I couldn't find the logic for that sequence) actually use the sequencer. The only exception is for some story characters on the space ship, which use a sequencer to limit the amount of time a character speaks (magic mouth and sequencer are triggered separately, the sequencer changes character behavior after a set period of time). Most events are accomplished through the use of a few timers (or the user pressing "circle" during a magic mouth conversation). For example, the little music clips in the arcade are all based on a series of sound effects and timers. I've noticed more, but those are some of the more interesting bits I saw. Anyone have anything else worth sharing?

2010-11-16 01:15:00 Author: Sickivionkey Posts: 70

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4. [lack of sequencer] The sequencer tool was added later than most of the levels being developed, I wouldn't read too much into MM not having made full use of it

2010-11-16 01:25:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Nope but if you wanna see the "super Block Drop" in create mode I have most of it ^_^ (I think part of it is destroyed when the game is over so I can't capture that piece :'( ) Also ima go hunt for the negativitron and the logic for it in a bit EDIT- FOUND IT! its under the level where the jump across block or get gassed part is.

2010-11-16 01:27:00 Author: fodawim Posts: 363

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Nope but if you wanna see the "super Block Drop" in create mode I have most of it ^_^ (I think part of it is destroyed when the game is over so I can't capture that piece :'( ) Also ima go hunt for the negativitron and the logic for it in a bit EDIT- FOUND IT! its under the level where the jump across block or get gassed part is. I have all of the first part of lift off if anybody wants it. My PS3 freezes when I save the second part though. I'll keep trying though. I think I'll try saving Pipe Dreams as well, and then see if somebody will record them in create mode going over all the switches and stuff. Anyways, you guys shouldn't worry about the god glitch, because it will be patched in the final game, so only people in the beta will really be able to mess with it.

2010-11-16 01:55:00 Author: GreatWhite000 Posts: 673

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Nope but if you wanna see the "super Block Drop" in create mode I have most of it ^_^ (I think part of it is destroyed when the game is over so I can't capture that piece :'( ) Also ima go hunt for the negativitron and the logic for it in a bit EDIT- FOUND IT! its under the level where the jump across block or get gassed part is. I *WOULD* like to see super block drop. I haven't been fast enough to capture it. You just work quickly after getting to the scoreboard? Also, that reminds me of another interesting find. Although not all that surprising, in some of the levels Mm will delete large portions after the player moves on, to free up resources.

2010-11-16 02:58:00 Author: Sickivionkey Posts: 70

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Thanks for this. I was curious in the way MM made their levels, I have been meaning to look for a copied version to tinker with. Also, that reminds me of another interesting find. Although not all that surprising, in some of the levels Mm will delete large portions after the player moves on, to free up resources. Ah interesting, how do they "delete" these sections? Plus on 1a you say they use grav tool instead of dark matter. Has anyone in beta done some testing to see if it more thermo efficient? Plus why do they use a tag for the sackbot to look at? Isn't there a setting for looking at the player already in the sackbot options?

2010-11-16 03:50:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

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I *WOULD* like to see super block drop. I haven't been fast enough to capture it. You just work quickly after getting to the scoreboard? Also, that reminds me of another interesting find. Although not all that surprising, in some of the levels Mm will delete large portions after the player moves on, to free up resources. Select the end level checkpoint you spawn at when the minigame ends. Push triangle to detach it, then hold down triangle and it will eventually be deleted. You don't need to worry about timing since you can just push the start button to exit out of the start menu that comes up when you are done looking at the scoreboard.

2010-11-16 04:07:00 Author: GreatWhite000 Posts: 673

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a. Instead of hunks of dark matter, almost every object in the level uses anti-gravity modifiers set to 100% anti-gravity and 100% dampening. Permanent switches are simply a counter set to 1. Interesting! It's the same thing I've been doing. Hurrah for efficiency!

2010-11-16 04:21:00 Author: aer0blue Posts: 1603

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I'm guessing large portions of the level are emitted and desolved when not used. I kinda remember in one of the gamescon vids, when they zoomed out of the bee level, large chunks were being made ahead of the viewing area, simply popping in. I guess you can create the same thing when sackboy prepares to move into new areas.

2010-11-16 04:30:00 Author: Cheezy WEAPON Posts: 283

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"I am a sackbot". Heh. Typical Mm whimsy even where nobody is expected to see it. Good stuff. Most of it is pretty common techniques among the community, but that echo setting is pretty clever. I'm also curious as to why Da Vinci is looking at a tag instead of the player.

2010-11-16 05:47:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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This is very interesting! I wonder how the other Mm levels work C:

2010-11-16 08:13:00 Author: Matimoo Posts: 1027

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@midnight: The "delete" large portions of the level is actually pretty easy now. You just wait until a player reaches a later part of the level, then trigger a destructor switch. In LBP1 you had to either deemit or drop a large object. I half expected to find cases where Mm was doing things that we couldn't duplicate. But, (in LBP2), I couldn't find any instances where Mm had "cheated". For example, the Magic mouths actually contain text (unlike some cases in LBP1). The tubes that the sackbots are sucked through? Those are lined with dozens of blue tags (labeled with a specific direction - up, down, left, right). Whenever a sackbot is near one of those tags, a mover is triggered on the sackbot's circuit board that moves him through the tube. Simple. That also means that (as far as I can tell) the sackbots that you save throughout the level look like they actually move through the entire piping system (i.e., I don't think they cheat and emit copies of the sackbots to create the illusion that the same sackbots are following you).

2010-11-16 12:05:00 Author: Sickivionkey Posts: 70

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Plus on 1a you say they use grav tool instead of dark matter. Has anyone in beta done some testing to see if it more thermo efficient? Seems to be less efficient than DM - objects set to 100% dampening act like they are static, but thermo is not calculated as such. The benefit appears to be convenience, not efficiency as far as I can tell. I half expected to find cases where Mm was doing things that we couldn't duplicate. But, (in LBP2), I couldn't find any instances where Mm had "cheated". For example, the Magic mouths actually contain text (unlike some cases in LBP1). One of the magic mouths has a analogue stick picture in the text, and possibly an x button symbol...

2010-11-16 12:11:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Seems to be less efficient than DM - objects set to 100% dampening act like they are static, but thermo is not calculated as such. The benefit appears to be convenience, not efficiency as far as I can tell. An interesting point regarding this, me and O-K-I-N-G-0 ran into this problem whilst making our BCC03 entry, where the bridge is emitted in 76 individual pieces. First off we set all of them to be 100% dampening, and this was fine, but when the ultra complicated dual treaded tank tried to roll across it, the frame rate wet itself. So our solution was to have the 10 horizontal pieces have a set lifetime, so that when the camera is elsewhere, they all demit at the same time, and a solid long piece (made from 10 pieces glued together) on dark matter was emitted in the exact same place. Runs like a treat now

2010-11-16 12:50:00 Author: Asbestos101 Posts: 1114

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Hehe, cheaters! Nice trick. I'm interested to hear what those magic mouths with the pictures show when edited. Also, expect the beta isn't internationalized yet, so the final magic mouths might still contain those references like in LBP1.

2010-11-16 12:57:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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So our solution was to have the 10 horizontal pieces have a set lifetime, so that when the camera is elsewhere, they all demit at the same time, and a solid long piece (made from 10 pieces glued together) on dark matter was emitted in the exact same place. Runs like a treat now That's pretty clever, but it may not necessarily have been the gravity tweakers that were causing the framerate issue. Framerate issues are common when too many objects (glued or not) are onscreen, though obviously the problem is worse if they're loose pieces instead of glued to dm or each other. I'd be curious if a gravity tweaker essentially transforms the object into dark matter or if the thermo still treats it as a potentially movable object.

2010-11-16 13:03:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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I using gravity treaker in my greddy level, imo it's more safer way then gluing level, specially when i got wheels to take care of

2010-11-16 13:38:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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i've been using the anti-grav for floating too... so nice not to have to worry about colliding when you put something against a wall etc or having to guess where your tiny invisible triangle is at later. i'm still a glue hog though, 'cause if i'm not mistaken, i could always manage my thermo a wee bit by making sure things were glued firmly and didn't have some kind of loose kinetic value. could be a long running misconception i've had though. edit: nevermind, read through the thread... glue is still good. i really want to look through these, but couldn't find them since it's been routinely moderated. i probably don't have the required DLC for some of them either. just seeing MM's one shot early on helped me alot.

2010-11-18 17:42:00 Author: Unknown User

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