Archive: 173 posts

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I think people are going about making the LBP community a better place the wrong way. I think that the reason people copy other level?s and make bomb survivals and generally behave anti social is not because there trying to be malicious or because there lazy, It's because that?s all they know. It's daunting to start out level?s with so much blank space and most people just don't have the time for quality time. Most of the player?s are kids and kids are in general and imaginative bunch but create mode requires too much of there time. Kids can?t spend 6 hours a day craft ting a wonderful level but they still want to succeed and become popular. So what can we do about this? What about Schools? An accomplished creator takes a beginner under their wing and teaches them the basics. There could be a level like the logic pack, which would explain the basics. Because if everyone had a choice between making an awesome level or a copied bomb survival which would they choose? Most people would choose the awesome level. I have loads of great ideas but none of them ever reach the light of day because I don't have the skills to back it up. I?m not allowed to pull all nighters playing video games. I think that LBP2 should be well easier. At least in create mode. A good idea would be having level templates only this time round it could be a FPS template, A minigame template, A racing game ect. I just think that with all the complicated logic tools Little Big Planets create mode is too hard. Even if create mode is shorter and more advance I can still imagine everyone having trouble. I also don't believe in patronizing beginners. There shouldn?t be a NOOB and AWSOME AND TALENTED CREATOR MODE with the NOOB mode having less tools. Does anyone else have any ideas about how to make Little Big Planet create mode easier?

2010-11-07 17:17:00 Author: wev99 Posts: 67

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I'm the same as you buddy, I have a level that is unfinished and probably never will be. Maybe... (just maybe) some of the more talented creators could create templates themselves.

2010-11-07 17:25:00 Author: daddy_doodle Posts: 199

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I know right! People complain about the Cool Pages but they don't do anything to help them. I really like your idea though Maybe if I could get load's of people to send a message to the top creators and request that they create the templates.

2010-11-07 17:31:00 Author: wev99 Posts: 67

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I'm in! So... who do we ask first?

2010-11-07 17:44:00 Author: daddy_doodle Posts: 199

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I think you may be looking at create mode the wrong way. Every tool in create mode has been made as simple as possible while still maintaining the ability to do amazing things. Making create mode simpler would involve removing full features ultimately lowering the the standard of creations you can make and making it more difficult to perform the easier jobs. The idea of templates is one that kind of confuses me, you want to have something that allows you to quickly make a big project such as an FPS level, you have to remember that LittleBigPlanet when it was first created was made to be a platformer, levels that you see such as RPGs and FPS's require a lot of work there is no getting around that. I know if you look on LBP there are already templates that people have made for FPS levels for HUD's and all kind of things. But these restrict what you can do and really at that point you aren't making the level yourself. I don't see how you can justify people stealing levels or concepts due to not understanding create mode or not having enough time to create. Most of the amazing creators on this site are either in full time employment or full time education, they balance creating around their lives because it is one of there hobbies. Most people will only create for an hour or two a night and it can ultimately take them months to finish a level. Now I do agree that it is daunting to start a level and see all of that empty space, that is why if you are going into create mode you should probably have an idea on what your going to make, even if you don't know how you are going to make it just knowing what you want and applying a little bit of sense you can start to create something good. I have dozens of unfinished projects on my moon because I couldn't be bothered to finish them, I will probably never go back to them. But it has gave me the skills to create better things and I know every time I create something it is better than the last thing I created. I don't publish it because I want to do better, it is probably why people aren't cheering my name from the rooftops but when the time comes when I do finish a project I know that I have made it to the best of my ability and I didn't just use an overused idea or steal another persons concept. One last thing, if you actually have the ability to create a bomb survival and lets face it 99% of people do then you have the ability to create. If you instead used your time making a fun level you are more likely to get noticed.

2010-11-07 17:46:00 Author: robotiod Posts: 2662

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I get your point but I was thinking that all of the Logic and Set pieces could be given to them. When people make level's they want to make impressive. Suppose your a lover of Modern Warfare 2 and you decide to get Little Big Planet 2. You're not very good and used to platformers so you want to make what your used to: An FPS. I don't think they should do the entire level for you and than you publish. I'm saying that it's easier for people to learn by doing. If your given the logic and whatever else to the level than you can work on building the important bits which is how you improve. I understand what you mean about full time job's but most beginners want to make something cool as soon as possible. I do this with stories. I would start writing a story than get bored of the theme and start something new. Your right though. I just think that there must be another way.....

2010-11-07 18:03:00 Author: wev99 Posts: 67

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The thing is... 99.9999% of any creator that you find great started no differently than you. Frustrated, wondering what this or that was and totally lost. After tons of practice, help from tutorials (as few that even existed back then compared to now), and generally asking questions and sticking with it, they got better. Some are a little more naturally suited to create mode depending on their life skills... like artists, designers, computer programmers, electronics engineers and the like... However, they all started with a big huge empty level and staring at the popit menu wondering what all that stuff was. It simply takes time.. There are the story level templates, but not that I found those really helpful. However looking at them sorta gives you an idea how it was all put together minus the logic and moving parts. There are a ton of tutorials here on LBPC as well as the LBPC Logic Packs to help new creators get up to speed and adapt to the tools. I wish I had a tenth of the stuff that is here now when I started. Good luck and if there are ever any questions.. feel free to ask. We will do our best to point you in the right direction.

2010-11-07 18:25:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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MM have gone about this the wrong way. They made a mistake by hiring expert creators to join their team. Expert creators are very intelligent and capable of using the tools. They understand logic and game design and how to build objects in LBP. So ask them what they want to include in LBP2 and they will ask for logic tools, direct control seats - things that are very abstract and conceptual in nature, which give the most possibilities, but NOT the most ease of use. Expert creators will make the most amazing things - but the community at large will be lost. Things they should have done - Improve the tutorial system. Stephen Fry does a lot of funny commentary, but not much explaining. There should be tutorials explaining how to MAKE stuff, like a series of moving platforms, or a top-down racer. NOT how to use the individual tools to do something basic. I think most people were lost after viewing some of the tutorials. The things you make in them are just not fun or useful. - Improve the templates system. Nobody used the templates system. Why? Because it was so crap. Just stripped-out levels. Templates should be a lot more versatile, and should provide the basics of gameplay rather than of visuals which are not too hard to make. - Community object sharing. Community objects should be accessible from within CREATE mode. Search for the item you want, choose the thumbnail that looks best, and place it directly in your level. This would make creating SO much easier for younger/inexperienced users. If you want an object somewhere, you don't have to think about what it looks like and how it's going to work, you can just search and place it. Putting objects in a level is all well and good, but it is VERY cumbersome and you can't simply collect your objects and plonk them down and see how they work. You need to exit create mode, find a level, collect objects, go back to create mode, find the object, place the object, find it's not quite right etc. - Easy creation tools. The tools available work well, but LBP2 needs more in the way of tools to help you quickly build a great-looking level. I suggest a "magic paintbrush" tool that will paint scenery for you based upon a plethora of options such as scenery type, top-down/front view, brush size, density, colour scheme, scale etc. - MM objects. MM objects are pretty useless. Nobody uses them except to get special materials and items from them, because using MM objects is frowned upon in levels. Why should it be this way? MM objects should be particularly versatile and should fit in anywhere. They should be able to be customized and edited. Some could be simply "object-builders" that build you, say, a car - based upon a series of parameters. Coupled with the magic paintbrush, this would allow even the noobiest creator to whip up a fun top-down racer set in a jungle with quad bikes in no time at all. And it would not look like a pre-made level because everything from the density, colour and decorations used in the jungle, to the track layout and shape, colour and design of the quad bikes would be completely customized by the creator. - Need inspiration? No worries - MM has just the tool for you! A simple click on a button will create a randomly-generated phrase to tell you what to build next. A few clicks on this thing and creators' block will be banished forever!

2010-11-07 18:44:00 Author: thor Posts: 388

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I think you may be looking at create mode the wrong way. Every tool in create mode has been made as simple as possible while still maintaining the ability to do amazing things. Making create mode simpler would involve removing full features ultimately lowering the the standard of creations you can make and making it more difficult to perform the easier jobs. The idea of templates is one that kind of confuses me, you want to have something that allows you to quickly make a big project such as an FPS level, you have to remember that LittleBigPlanet when it was first created was made to be a platformer, levels that you see such as RPGs and FPS's require a lot of work there is no getting around that. I know if you look on LBP there are already templates that people have made for FPS levels for HUD's and all kind of things. But these restrict what you can do and really at that point you aren't making the level yourself. I don't see how you can justify people stealing levels or concepts due to not understanding create mode or not having enough time to create. Most of the amazing creators on this site are either in full time employment or full time education, they balance creating around their lives because it is one of there hobbies. Most people will only create for an hour or two a night and it can ultimately take them months to finish a level. Now I do agree that it is daunting to start a level and see all of that empty space, that is why if you are going into create mode you should probably have an idea on what your going to make, even if you don't know how you are going to make it just knowing what you want and applying a little bit of sense you can start to create something good. I have dozens of unfinished projects on my moon because I couldn't be bothered to finish them, I will probably never go back to them. But it has gave me the skills to create better things and I know every time I create something it is better than the last thing I created. I don't publish it because I want to do better, it is probably why people aren't cheering my name from the rooftops but when the time comes when I do finish a project I know that I have made it to the best of my ability and I didn't just use an overused idea or steal another persons concept. One last thing, if you actually have the ability to create a bomb survival and lets face it 99% of people do then you have the ability to create. If you instead used your time making a fun level you are more likely to get noticed. Exactly that! Thanks dude, you just saved me a rant. MM have gone about this the wrong way. They made a mistake by hiring expert creators to join their team. Expert creators are very intelligent and capable of using the tools. They understand logic and game design and how to build objects in LBP. So ask them what they want to include in LBP2 and they will ask for logic tools, direct control seats - things that are very abstract and conceptual in nature, which give the most possibilities, but NOT the most ease of use. Expert creators will make the most amazing things - but the community at large will be lost. Things they should have done - Improve the tutorial system. Stephen Fry does a lot of funny commentary, but not much explaining. There should be tutorials explaining how to MAKE stuff, like a series of moving platforms, or a top-down racer. NOT how to use the individual tools to do something basic. I think most people were lost after viewing some of the tutorials. The things you make in them are just not fun or useful. - Improve the templates system. Nobody used the templates system. Why? Because it was so crap. Just stripped-out levels. Templates should be a lot more versatile, and should provide the basics of gameplay rather than of visuals which are not too hard to make. - Community object sharing. Community objects should be accessible from within CREATE mode. Search for the item you want, choose the thumbnail that looks best, and place it directly in your level. This would make creating SO much easier for younger/inexperienced users. If you want an object somewhere, you don't have to think about what it looks like and how it's going to work, you can just search and place it. Putting objects in a level is all well and good, but it is VERY cumbersome and you can't simply collect your objects and plonk them down and see how they work. You need to exit create mode, find a level, collect objects, go back to create mode, find the object, place the object, find it's not quite right etc. - Easy creation tools. The tools available work well, but LBP2 needs more in the way of tools to help you quickly build a great-looking level. I suggest a "magic paintbrush" tool that will paint scenery for you based upon a plethora of options such as scenery type, top-down/front view, brush size, density, colour scheme, scale etc. - MM objects. MM objects are pretty useless. Nobody uses them except to get special materials and items from them, because using MM objects is frowned upon in levels. Why should it be this way? MM objects should be particularly versatile and should fit in anywhere. They should be able to be customized and edited. Some could be simply "object-builders" that build you, say, a car - based upon a series of parameters. Coupled with the magic paintbrush, this would allow even the noobiest creator to whip up a fun top-down racer set in a jungle with quad bikes in no time at all. And it would not look like a pre-made level because everything from the density, colour and decorations used in the jungle, to the track layout and shape, colour and design of the quad bikes would be completely customized by the creator. A mistake to hire expert creators....? So they should've hired anyoione that asked? It looks to me here that you just want tools to make levels for you so you can make awesome levels effortlessly so the ones who bust their brains out making an awesome level get the same kind of recognition as the ones who simply got their levels made for them...

2010-11-07 18:54:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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@thor, logic things and DCS was something that we (LBP creators) invented and try to emulate, so they look what we doing and decided to implement them, in fact now they are easier to use then in LBP1, it's not something from expert heads is something that was already in use in general with in LBP1 And i don't think that MM objects are useless, it's like saying example codes are useless and they are not, for example they give in bubble with 0-9 LCD display

2010-11-07 19:23:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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I think that the reason people copy other level?s and make bomb survivals and generally behave anti social ... WAit.... what? Since when is there an excuse for that? That's like saying it's alright for someone to steal and rob people if they don't know what job to get or business to get into. Something something something too abstract something... Everyone has to understand something about LBP... it's abstractness is what makes it good. You have to think in abstract terms to be able to fully understand and enjoy it... don't box yourselves in. Don't think "FPS" or "TOP DOWN RACER" ... it's more helpful to understand the components in anything, that will let you use it to build infinite possibilities. Otherwise you run into the problem that's facing most grade-school students today - they regurgitate formulas but don't actually understand why each piece of the formula functions the way it does. Besides, there is no such thing as "expert creator". We've all been playing LBP only as long as it existed. We're all equally amateur, and were all equally confused when we started. This isn't Counterstrike where you have to hone skills and reflexes, it's simply being imaginative. LBP2 logic facilitates the simplest of abstract logic. It works just like writing out a math problem in grade school. "I want my cheetah to shoot lasers if you're pressing L1 and Square" ... well gee, all you have to do is hook up L1 and Square to an AND gate, and that gate to an emitter that emits lasers. It all follows a very well-flowing path, and doesn't require any expertness beyond getting acquainted with tools. - Community object sharing. I like this idea... I think it could be cool to have a catalog of objects that people publish, but that might be redundant with levels. Ah well, good idea.

2010-11-07 21:33:00 Author: Foofles Posts: 2278

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@thor, logic things and DCS was something that we (LBP creators) invented and try to emulate, so they look what we doing and decided to implement them, in fact now they are easier to use then in LBP1, it's not something from expert heads is something that was already in use in general with in LBP1 And i don't think that MM objects are useless, it's like saying example codes are useless and they are not, for example they give in bubble with 0-9 LCD display In fact DCS was probably a bad example... logic though, goes way over people's heads. I understand that it makes things easier but it is very daunting for a noob creator. I am just saying they had the wrong FOCUS, not that the new tools don't make it easier. They do, but they could have done so much better if ease of use was their aim (and I think it should have been). A mistake to hire expert creators....? So they should've hired anyoione that asked? It looks to me here that you just want tools to make levels for you so you can make awesome levels effortlessly so the ones who bust their brains out making an awesome level get the same kind of recognition as the ones who simply got their levels made for them... No not anyone who asked... most games companies hire people the regular way, not by hiring people from the community. I think it gave them the wrong focus - to build systems that only the expert creators could create, forgetting ease of use. Somebody more experienced in game design rather than just making LBP levels may have brought that focus. Err... yeah I want tools that enable ANYBODY to create a great level without much effort. You have a problem with that? I think it's great. ModNation Racers has an "autopopulate" facility - you just drive the shape of your track, press autopopulate and you instantly have a great, drivable track. In LBP2 my ideas were to replicate this ease of use. Anyone can simply draw the shape of a track, choose some settings, generate a personalised car and have a great, drivable racing game. Or a playable platformer. This was the intention with the MM objects anyway - just that they weren't suited for ANY levels because they were designed around a specific theme. Customizable objects would fix that. In MNR, the tracks that are carefully hand-designed are far superior to any autopopulated levels, but even the expert creators can make good use of the tool to spruce up some areas nice and quickly and easily. In LBP2 the same would apply: Noob creators can create something fun in no time at all, levels that take a long time to make are still superior, and even experts can make use of the new tools. It's win-win-win.

2010-11-07 21:54:00 Author: thor Posts: 388

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In fact DCS was probably a bad example... logic though, goes way over people's heads. I understand that it makes things easier but it is very daunting for a noob creator. Bear in mind though, that if LBP1 is anything to go by, only 15% of people buying LBP2 will actually create. And the majority of them will have created in LBP1, so the proportion of people will already be familiar with the use of logic, but now they won't have to faff with the awkwardness of overbearing mechanical systems. Just about everyone who created in LBP1 learned the basics of logic systems so the new tools will facilitate their creation. New people to LBP2 will have to learn to use logic, but that's always been the case. This time it's less hidden from the user, so whilst it's more daunting initially, the barriers in using logic have been reduced. Conceptual AND gate functionality is easier to comprehend than the mechanics of magnetic keys, moving into range of magnetic switches, making sure that pistons are set to directional and inverted if appropriate and make sure they are stiff.... so it's very much a swings and roundabouts scenario - yes your not hiding the need for logic from the new creator, but you're making it easier to get to grips with it once they inevitably find out they need to learn. most games companies hire people the regular way You mean only ever considering hiring people who are already in the games industry? Which is arguably one of the largest factors leading to the prevalent stagnation and lack of innovation within the industry (though the remarkable lack of funding is probably more of a contributor there). But this is an entirely different conversation altogether You have a problem with that? I think it's great. ModNation Racers has an "autopopulate" facility - you just drive the shape of your track, press autopopulate and you instantly have a great, drivable track. In LBP2 my ideas were to replicate this ease of use. That sort of thing has never been the focus of LBP though and I'm not convinced that would sit actually sit alongside the core nature of LBP's create mode as well as it does for MNR - it's a very different creation environment. As far as I can tell, you're saying they should do away with the tools that empower people to create amazing stuff (the new logic tools, for example) and instead replace that with something that will allow everyone to make stuff that's alright using autopopulate tools? I'd absolutely take the huge quantity of terrible levels for the sake of having occasional diamonds in the rough, so to speak.

2010-11-07 22:15:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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When I first got the game I made the noob like levels. I wasn't a copier or survival person, I just made squares, ovals, and other shapes to jump on. As I spent more time playing the game I noticed the "cooler" (its a matter of opinion) levels. Made by the well known "expert creators". I noticed the detail put into the levels and what made a level more fun and interesting. Things that gave it the wow effect. I just spent more time working an tuning my skills. It truly does take time to learn and use the tools to create what you want. Not always easy all the time, but I still made it work. As jwwphotos said earlier, I agree it takes time to hone your skills. TIME is the issue. Edit: I agree with everything rtm just said.

2010-11-07 22:20:00 Author: bmoney2310 Posts: 187

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MM have gone about this the wrong way. They made a mistake by hiring expert creators to join their team. Expert creators are very intelligent and capable of using the tools. They understand logic and game design and how to build objects in LBP. So ask them what they want to include in LBP2 and they will ask for logic tools, direct control seats - things that are very abstract and conceptual in nature, which give the most possibilities, but NOT the most ease of use. Expert creators will make the most amazing things - but the community at large will be lost. Things they should have done - Improve the tutorial system. Stephen Fry does a lot of funny commentary, but not much explaining. There should be tutorials explaining how to MAKE stuff, like a series of moving platforms, or a top-down racer. NOT how to use the individual tools to do something basic. I think most people were lost after viewing some of the tutorials. The things you make in them are just not fun or useful. - Improve the templates system. Nobody used the templates system. Why? Because it was so crap. Just stripped-out levels. Templates should be a lot more versatile, and should provide the basics of gameplay rather than of visuals which are not too hard to make. - Community object sharing. Community objects should be accessible from within CREATE mode. Search for the item you want, choose the thumbnail that looks best, and place it directly in your level. This would make creating SO much easier for younger/inexperienced users. If you want an object somewhere, you don't have to think about what it looks like and how it's going to work, you can just search and place it. Putting objects in a level is all well and good, but it is VERY cumbersome and you can't simply collect your objects and plonk them down and see how they work. You need to exit create mode, find a level, collect objects, go back to create mode, find the object, place the object, find it's not quite right etc. - Easy creation tools. The tools available work well, but LBP2 needs more in the way of tools to help you quickly build a great-looking level. I suggest a "magic paintbrush" tool that will paint scenery for you based upon a plethora of options such as scenery type, top-down/front view, brush size, density, colour scheme, scale etc. - MM objects. MM objects are pretty useless. Nobody uses them except to get special materials and items from them, because using MM objects is frowned upon in levels. Why should it be this way? MM objects should be particularly versatile and should fit in anywhere. They should be able to be customized and edited. Some could be simply "object-builders" that build you, say, a car - based upon a series of parameters. Coupled with the magic paintbrush, this would allow even the noobiest creator to whip up a fun top-down racer set in a jungle with quad bikes in no time at all. And it would not look like a pre-made level because everything from the density, colour and decorations used in the jungle, to the track layout and shape, colour and design of the quad bikes would be completely customized by the creator. - Need inspiration? No worries - MM has just the tool for you! A simple click on a button will create a randomly-generated phrase to tell you what to build next. A few clicks on this thing and creators' block will be banished forever! I think there's some really good ideas in there. I particularly like the idea of having a separate search for community objects, accessible from inside Create mode. More tutorials would be very good too (Although LBP has already got more tutorials than any other console game I can think of.) However, I think there are a few things to remember when complaining about the difficulty of LBP's Create tools. 1. LBP is a really new idea. Can you think of any other piece of software which lets you make games as easily as LBP2? As far as game-creation tools go, LBP2 is a pretty amazing achievement. There really isn't anything else like it. LBP is way, way ahead of the industry curve as far as user generated content goes. You've mentioned a bunch of tools which would be really cool to have.... but I reckon they would be yet another evolutionary step forward. MM can't revolutionize everything at once! 2. Making games is hard. (http://kotaku.com/5559281/portal-2-delayed-to-2011-but-valve-has-a-good-reason) Making games is loads of work. A game needs artwork, music, programming (of some kind or other), gameplay design, and overall design work. The tools can only help you so much... If someone wants to make a game, they're going to have to put some work in. I don't think that's necessarily a bad lesson to teach. Sure, MM could add automatic "content generation" tools like the stuff in ModNation Racers. But I think that sort of tool tends to produce very indistinct, indentikit content which all looks the same. I wouldn't want to see LBP's servers clog up with 'autofilled' levels. 3. Not everyone has to be a creator. Not everyone wants to make games. Rather than try to prod those people into making levels by giving them increasingly automated creative tools, why not just let the creatives do their thing? In the end, the people who don't want to make levels get a fantastic deal, because they get loads of great stuff to play from other users. My 2c

2010-11-07 23:59:00 Author: Tig-W Posts: 106

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It's a noble goal, but I'm afraid it just isn't easy to create great levels, and it never will be. A school sounds nice, but I don't see it happening for two reasons. First, this is still a game, for expert creators, too, just a way to spend some free time in an enjoyable manner. They put in a lot of time sharing their knowledge in tutorials, blogs and tech demo levels to fill in the blanks that Stephen Fry left, and I don't think it's fair to expect them to tutor dozens of individuals in their free time. And looking at the other side of the spectrum: sure, lots of people would rather make an awesome level than a bomb survival, if it was as simple as pushing a button. But I doubt they're all really willing to put in the effort required. Creating is hard work, you have to invest a lot of time to reach the top tier, and talent also plays a role. It's like playing an instrument: I'd love to be able to play the guitar or piano, but I have other priorities, and don't put in the time. You have to invest to become good, and even then not everyone is going to be a virtuoso. And I don't believe there will ever be a tool that will make creating awesome levels easy. Templates and magic brushes will only get you an okay level at best, because all levels will look the same, it's the details, the little unique things that make a level good. I've never tried MNR, because while it sounds appealing to be able to drive around a bit and have a pretty looking level, this means there will be millions of these, all looking the same. That does not sounds awesome to me. It's like writing a book or movie. People try to make formulas, but it still requires some creativity, and I don't forsee computers generating bestsellers or blockbusters in the future. But you expect LBP to automatically create awesome levels? - MM objects. MM objects are pretty useless. Nobody uses them except to get special materials and items from them, because using MM objects is frowned upon in levels. Why should it be this way? I agree with you on this one. Some prebuilt objects can really save you some time, time which can be spent on the core of your level, the part that makes it unique and enjoyable. But the community scoffs at these, forcing every creator to become an artist as well as a storyteller, logic wizard and gameplay designer. And with LBP2 we may be required to become musicians and voice actors as well. With Play, Create, Share, Mm envisioned people building on eachothers work, creating ever grander levels. But the community will have to become more accepting of reuse first, and judge levels by the new stuff they bring, not the old that they build on. It kind of reminds me of the history of video games. Once, one person would make a video game on his own, now it requires huge teams. Maybe that's our future as well, but I hope not...

2010-11-08 00:18:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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- MM objects. MM objects are pretty useless. Nobody uses them except to get special materials and items from them, because using MM objects is frowned upon in levels. I don't think MM objects are useless, actually, I believe in the opposite. If used creatively they can add so much more to a level or object. They can give objects a real 3D look , doll heads for trees is probably the most well known but there are many other examples. I've seen power-up stations covered in decorations to give movement in the z-axis. MM objects have much more going for them than just hidden materials. It's all about being creative but I think I'm wondering too far from the topic.

2010-11-08 00:49:00 Author: SR20DETDOG Posts: 2431

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Piano and guitars shouldn't be made easier. It's people that need to practice. People that keeps on practicing are becoming the best players. I see a parallel here with LBP's tools. Young ones are capable and intelligent, they will learn the tools, eventually. You cannot simplify LBP more and make it a kid only game by nature. There are tons of teen + gamers playing and they want to create amazing stuff. Simplifying the game so the kid can go by would simply repulse the other half of the community. Best way to keep more people around is to have simple tools that CAN do amazing things if you keep practicing with them --- exactly what LBP is.

2010-11-08 08:48:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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I'll be willing to make a FPS template, the only reason i don't give it out is because it's hard to understand... and the fact I don't like people claiming they made my stuff. If i give it out with the ability to easier add different guns, tweakable reload speeds, damage output and all that, people could work on what I suck at, the enemies. and blah blah blah. Mm does just throw us the blocks and tools and says "build something" but I don't agree on an auto populate feature. It wouldn't work in LBP because how would it? Kids have the amazing ability to create without thinking much, I seen one of them creator, they just don't stop! The only great tip i would give is, work on some of the logic and features and then you will naturally learn on how to use the other tools, it's tricky but LBP2 has sprang up some great talent due to it's expanded tool set. I can't wait to see how the new tools would benefit the wider community. And I agree with a lot of stuff said here.

2010-11-08 11:14:00 Author: PPp_Killer Posts: 449

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It kind of reminds me of the history of video games. Once, one person would make a video game on his own, now it requires huge teams. Maybe that's our future as well, but I hope not... I think that's where LBP is heading, actually! You can already see people planning massive multi-stage projects for LBP2. These projects are going to need artwork, music, gameplay programming, level design, set-peice logic, scriptwriting, costume design, and perhaps even voice acting too. All kinds of different disciplines. I'm sure there'll be a few creators who are great at all of those things... but the less gifted among us will need to call on the help of others. Personally, I think it's kind of cool that creators will need to collaborate to make things. As you pointed out, it mirrors the evolution of videogames in a pretty cool way.

2010-11-08 12:40:00 Author: Tig-W Posts: 106

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when i first got lbp i didn't have acces to the online mode so i played around with the tools for months and eventualy learned the basics. so if your really commited and want to learn. try everything corner i didn't use the corner editor the first year i got lbp but when i started using it i discovered a completely different lbp. a tip is to build a lvl completely in grid the enhance it with the corner edit

2010-11-08 12:44:00 Author: dsdavve Posts: 72

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Imo the key in LBP2 is team work, I'm good in logic but sux in level modeling and art (maybe i will get better someday on this one), somebody is good in art but sux in logic, same make good art but sux in level making in general, there people who mostly make music, uniting people with specialties so you got all attributes allows to make and you gonna make cool level.so if you sux in something just invite people to help you make levels And as other people said, not everyone need to create in fact most of people don't create, there ton of people who got game and play regulary just to see our levels. Same as Alex said as example, YouTube got slogan called "Broadcast yourself" but most visitors don't do that, they go to YouTube to watch videos and still YouTube is success, until is there few geeks that make levels and ton of people to play them the cycle functions. Oh and just because you want to do FPS and you can't do FPS it does not mean you can't create something else ^^ try something diffrent

2010-11-08 14:06:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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I'm afraid I suck at teamwork, I'm too much of a control freak when it comes to my levels.

2010-11-08 14:21:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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The thing I like about LBP is that the possibilities are endless. With greater ease of use comes reduced functionality. Take MS Paint. It's really easy to use but doesn't have as many tools as, say, Photoshop, and Photoshop is capable of so much more. Also, take MNR. It's a doddle to set up a track with scenery and bends, but you only have one type of gameplay for the whole community! Now take LBP/2. It takes some hard graft to make a level, but look at all the possibilities we now have: racers, shooters, puzzlers, platformers, arcade games, stories, music, movies ... the list goes on. This variety would not exist if everyone could press a magic button and have a computer-generated level spring into life in front of them - and there's no satisfaction in doing that anyway. If you're not satisfied with the Mm objects, look at the community's objects. If you're not satisfied with Stephen Fry's tutorials, look at the plethora of tutorials published here, on YouTube, in the game, all over the interwebnets. The Mm tutorials/objects aren't there to tell you specifics - you have to think, as has already been said here several times, "out of the box". Go out there, find your thing, and just enjoy it.

2010-11-08 17:09:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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The thing I like about LBP is that the possibilities are endless. With greater ease of use comes reduced functionality. Take MS Paint. It's really easy to use but doesn't have as many tools as, say, Photoshop, and Photoshop is capable of so much more. Are you sure? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUWqRhReaZk ms paint is simple yet there gods that can make something like that, something like LBP1

2010-11-08 18:01:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Imo the key in LBP2 is team work, I'm good in logic but sux in level modeling and art (maybe i will get better someday on this one), somebody is good in art but sux in logic, same make good art but sux in level making in general, there people who mostly make music, uniting people with specialties so you got all attributes allows to make and you gonna make cool level.so if you sux in something just invite people to help you make levels I agree with this. Some people are just right brain oriented, others are left. I think that the best creators probably have a good mix of both. Fortunately as you say, I think that online create can help bridge the gaps A lot of my experience in Create mode in LBP1 has been frustrating because I'm much better with the artistic side of things and I've left a couple of probably good levels incomplete because I'd hit a wall wiring the **** things up. I know how I want objects to behave (even the very subtle behaviors that give a level that extra polish), but I have trouble sometimes wrapping my head around the mechanical aspects of the logic (which is weird because I understand logic very well). Even just watching the LBP2 beta videos online I can already see that Mm has made huge strides in streamlining and expanding process of adding logic to our creations... I can totally see finishing up some of my unfinished levels in the new game.

2010-11-08 18:12:00 Author: Chazprime Posts: 587

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Some interesting ideas and suggestions here but the one that I think really stands out as a good idea that I'd like Mm to implement is the object sharing/searching. Unfortunately, I imagine it wouldn't be the easiest thing for them to add (how would we publish objects? Would we need a limited number of published objects slots?) The templates are also a decent idea. The thing is they're already at least partially being done. Several of us, when we come up with a new technique, will publish copyable demo/showcase levels to give the tools to other players so that they can learn from them and sometimes even drag and drop them into their own creations. I published a vehicle tools level in lbp1 with tilt sensors and control pods for other people to use. I tried to keep them as compact and flexible as possible to allow them to be inserted into a variety of situations and I even occasionally tailor made variations upon request. In the beta, I made a flexible health bar (http://beta.lbp.me/v/3y02) that can receive different inputs for different levels of damage and healing, with an adjustable auto-regenerate, and I added notes to all the adjustable parts so that people should be able to adapt it to their needs relatively easily even if they don't fully understand the logic that makes it work. If it's taken further, this kind of thing could really help out the less skilled creators: if somebody makes the perfect kart racer, they could make a template kart with adjustable speed, steering, etc and let the player tailor the design to their own tastes and build a level around it, which would save them the time of duplicating all the other top down kart experiments people have done and would help to bring the average quality of kart racer levels up.

2010-11-08 19:25:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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Creating levels is easy But creating a level of an acceptable standard isn't. In fact, it's anything but easy. As time went by in LBP1, the community evolved, the levels became more advanced & complex and as a result, people's expectations have become higher & higher. So a level that might have been considered acceptable back in the early days would be rejected nowadays. For example, if someone made a level like Distress in Ocean & published it nowadays, it would be viewed as "noob rubbish". And the LBPC: the game intro level wouldn't have had such a harsh reception if were published in 2008/early 09. Peoples idea of an acceptable level has changed since the early days of LBP. The bar has been raised and for a level to be considered acceptable nowadays has to be highly complex, advanced and thermo filling. Creating a complex level can be difficult & time consuming (especially with the 160 hour glitch) But hey, creating something worthwhile is never easy.

2010-11-08 20:53:00 Author: D-E-S_87 Posts: 148

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Some interesting ideas and suggestions here but the one that I think really stands out as a good idea that I'd like Mm to implement is the object sharing/searching. I actually suggested 3 community types, objects, costumes and lvls in the bets forums and immediately got told it wouldn't work, good to see there's others who want something like I suggested. Here's the link to my post if you wanna add support /begging http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/PRIVATE-LBP-2-Beta/SUGGESTION-3-Upload-types/td-p/11813007

2010-11-08 22:53:00 Author: fodawim Posts: 363

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A couple of things: 1 - Remember LittleBigPlanet was a new experience for all of us. We all had to learn - and that means we all originally created levels that weren't that great. I like to think that the types of levels I'm making now are far better than my first every - and that's through learning. Just fiddle about a little bit, and have fun! I mean, open up a blank level, and make the level piece by piece, then stick it all together. 2: You don't even need mind boggling logic to make a good level. I mean, a little logic knowledge helps, but there are plenty of levels out there that use very little logic, and are still pretty awesome! When you first get LBP2, you won't get it straight away. I mean, I didn't - it took me days to figure out how to use it at first. But you learn quickly - especially if you've got LBP1 experience to back it up with. And anyways - most of us in the BETA figured it out - and in the retail copy of the game, you'll have waaaaaaaaay more tutorials! So don't worry - just wait til it comes out, and see what it's like then. And the thing about time? You can't rush art!

2010-11-08 23:05:00 Author: standby250 Posts: 1113

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I think it is a good goal. i have an idea, rather than making lbp simpler, why not make a community within lbp to help with these big projects for younger people, or for people without the time, or without the pure skill it takes to make a great level. free services, and you know, some kind of HUGE database of members, information on who to contact, and stuff on a website, and/or in a level on lbp, to give the ideas that don't have the luck of making it into minds with the ablility to make a great level a chance. what o you guys think? I think if i were to create such a group, i would call it the Community Creators For Hire, or something along those lines. and have different crews who are good at different things, like logic, decoration, and general design. what do you think OP? would this possably solve the problem.

2010-11-09 00:11:00 Author: flamesterart Posts: 585

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It's actually really easy. You just have to put in some practice, just like anything else. Now, if all of these bomb survival kids actually wanted to make some cool, different levels, they'd be patient, go through tutorials, and play around in create mode for awhile. Now I have a really busy schedule myself. I have school every weekday, I run and do homework on Saturday, and I volunteer on Sunday. I do all this, yet I know all (well mostly) the ins and outs of the new system. You just need patience, don't expect to just know what everything does right off the bat.

2010-11-09 02:29:00 Author: Sack-Jake Posts: 1153

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- Improve the tutorial system. Stephen Fry does a lot of funny commentary, but not much explaining. There should be tutorials explaining how to MAKE stuff, like a series of moving platforms, or a top-down racer. NOT how to use the individual tools to do something basic. I think most people were lost after viewing some of the tutorials. The things you make in them are just not fun or useful. This is what got me in LBP1. I wanted a grab sponge that lifts you up. I cannot recall anything like that in the tutorials. I have helped a bunch of newbies with the same problem. Sure you could go online a search for tutorials, but it would be very handy to have all that stuff in game, so you don't have to go looking. Also, unless a user-created tutorial is copyable, I find it very difficult to use. I really do hope MM have some tutorials regarding things like.. how to build a kart racer, controlling sackbot via controllinator + camera, how to make a anti-grav platform, etc. Stuff like that. I'm sure many kids/newbies attempt creating, but they just get stuck/frustrated when simple things don't work out and give up.

2010-11-09 07:28:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

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...why not make a community within lbp to help with these big projects for younger people... I see what you're saying but it would be kind of a one-sided thing, don't you think? I mean the experienced creators are here to play the game too and they won't want to devote all of their time to helping others while not working on their own stuff. Besides, we already have a ton of helpful things going on. There's the logic pack levels which demonstrate some good logic devices and give them to players to learn from, Rtm's logic blogs are helpful if you wanna' learn advanced stuff, people have made color customizers for making stickers of any color you want, TheAdipose and Luos_Desruc made those youtube videos and copyable levels on how to make good looking level scenery, and the list just goes on and on. There's no shortage of helpfulness out there for people who want to learn, and it's going to be even easier to do in lbp2: you can capture a microchip by itself and give it as a prize so you could take the template kart racer idea I mentioned earlier and go one step further: the chip could contain everything to make it work (gravity, friction, controls, etc) all pre-configured and you could slap it on any kart you build. Seriously, we're making it as easy for everybody as we can, but people will still have to put forth the effort to learn. I'm pretty good with logic, but it's not because I had any outside experience or anything: I just played a few logic levels, learned from the tools people made, read posts/blogs explaining it, and experimented with it on my own.

2010-11-09 07:33:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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...why not make a community within lbp to help with these big projects for younger people... Hey, that just gave me an Idea. Anyway, we cannot possibly help everybody that asked for help, too many people would be selfish and expect us to create everything for them. But my idea being, why not make a LBPC template pack, imagine Logic pack but in template form. The profile could include racer templates to RPGs to anything else.

2010-11-09 08:05:00 Author: PPp_Killer Posts: 449

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well, since mm picks have become 'official' with frilly pink ribbons, why not make a whole set of real tutorial levels? I'm sure when LBP2 comes around, you can record your voice as a sackbot guides you through the creation process.. starting from simple layout, to rigs and machines and logic. Maybe even have a level where you create stuff in it with pre-made blocks of material (a cursor with an emitter on it) and blocks of pre-made logic.

2010-11-09 09:28:00 Author: Cheezy WEAPON Posts: 283

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One of the Beta test night goals was to make a tutorial level, I'm sure people will be doing the same in retail. I don't know, I just see it as basic cognitive thinking. For example, someone mentioned making a sponge raise when you grab it. In the tutorials, you get knowledge of the grab switch. You also get knowledge of winches. It's trivial to make the connection mentally that you can combine them. Although I do admit the tutorials could be more interesting, in the LBP2 beta the tutorials are very drawn out, annoying to follow, and unfortunately don't explain the new tools as well as they should. For example, the new "mover" tool. They just tell you to slap it on the cow, but they don't mention you can alter it's movement on the XY coordinate plane relative to its orientation.

2010-11-09 13:28:00 Author: Foofles Posts: 2278

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On the other hand, they have to watch out for information overflow. I think the goal of the in-game tutorials is to give you an impression of what each tool is for, so that when you have a certain problem, you have a good idea of which tool will solve it for you, but you'll have to play with the tweaks to find out exactly how. Edit: And this playing around with tweaks is the second stage of learning, and something you can do for yourself. The final stage is keeping up with the tricks on forums like this one, and asking if there's something you can't solve.

2010-11-09 13:34:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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Yeah but what I'm getting at is the combination of being verbose and not actually teaching much. Just rambling like a politician. I got bored and could hardly tolerate the tutorials, I can't imagine what it'd be like a for a kid.

2010-11-09 14:07:00 Author: Foofles Posts: 2278

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I haven't seen the LBP2 tutorials yet... Listened to a couple of steven fry's voiceovers at MM Towers and thought they were hilarious... Anyway, if the tutorials are bad, we all know who to blame (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/member.php?4394) Going back to the discussion of forming teams to maximise skills working on the project... Am I the only one who really enjoys doing the aspects of creation that I'm not good at???

2010-11-09 14:12:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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@Foofles: I would think the humour makes it more digestible for kids, maybe you were bored because you already knew the basics and it didn't explain the feature you wanted to learn about? @Rtm: I only enjoy it if I get a good result in the end. But maybe that's just me. And it's not just about enjoying it, it's about time spent as well. Doing pretty scenery takes a lot of time, most of which is spent staring at the screen and mocking my efforts.

2010-11-09 14:37:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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@Foofles: I would think the humour makes it more digestible for kids, maybe you were bored because you already knew the basics and it didn't explain the feature you wanted to learn about? Going through the tutorials was one of the first things I did as soon as I got the beta, so I didn't know the basics - I knew nothing! I had to do the tutorials in separate sessions because of the excessive verbosity - they should just get to the point. The only time excessive verbosity is permitted is in a Sierra Online Graphic Adventure. Going back to the discussion of forming teams to maximise skills working on the project... Am I the only one who really enjoys doing the aspects of creation that I'm not good at??? Nope, I love doing things I'm not good at in general to get better at them. And in a game like LBP, everything serves a purpose, so it's fun to experiment with everything.

2010-11-09 15:14:00 Author: Foofles Posts: 2278

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I agree the tutorials are a problem. Even when they explained the different switches and logic in LBP2 beta I was like "errr, ok! Looks like I will discover a use of this by experimenting!". The tutorial should be more down to the point and they could even follow the making of an entire demo level that covers all the basics. How do you think people are learning Unreal with that extremely recognised 3Dbuzz.com tutorial? All the tutorial are basically putting the user through a project from head to toe.

2010-11-09 15:34:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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We didn't seen all tutorials yet and might basic uses, but i would not expect something complex on them.

2010-11-09 16:02:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Didn't MM say all the Steven Fry recording was done? Perhaps getting him in is a double-edged sword. I doubt he has recording anything like we have suggested. I would happily settle for someone else from MM explaining detailed/specific tutorials!

2010-11-09 17:36:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

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Going back to the discussion of forming teams to maximise skills working on the project... Am I the only one who really enjoys doing the aspects of creation that I'm not good at??? I was wondering how long it would be until someone asked. I enjoy every part of creation, in a way, I enjoy the parts I'm not good at more. It's a lot more exciting when you do a great job of something you're not normally good at.

2010-11-09 22:06:00 Author: SR20DETDOG Posts: 2431

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Plus you learn so much more working outside your comfort zone.

2010-11-09 22:11:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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Yea, in my Greedy Level i challenged my self to use corner tool, in fact it's my first level that i mostly use of it (Yea i know i'm crazy ). Team work is also good, you can learn things from others.

2010-11-09 22:54:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Hey, that just gave me an Idea. Anyway, we cannot possibly help everybody that asked for help, too many people would be selfish and expect us to create everything for them. But my idea being, why not make a LBPC template pack, imagine Logic pack but in template form. The profile could include racer templates to RPGs to anything else. Maybe Mm could let people flag a level as a tutorial or template (I'm not in the beta, so maybe they have already), so that people looking for that kind of thing have a section to look in and those who are logging in to play community levels will be able to find them without all the tutorials, costume & sticker levels showing up in their searches. Maybe these mini-levels wouldn't count against your level quota either, that would be good incentive for people to create them. Looking at the direction the game is taking, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Mm created an assets library online of gadgets and gizmos so that you could download them directly to you library (or at least point you to the level that contains the prize).

2010-11-10 16:56:00 Author: Chazprime Posts: 587

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...this one actually took time to read through! The OP asked for a shortcut to being a great creator. As has posted before... THERE IS NONE! You need to have patience to practice making stuff, and patience to keep doing it, and patience to keep doing it long enough. [/obvious] Also, instead of crying about all the things you CAN't do, you might want to do the stuff you're good at, and then slowly trudge towards the infamous Edge of the Comfort Zone. I, for example, started realizing that I'll never be making any picture-perfect realistic super awespme visuals, and then settled with my Mm-ish style, and being happy with it. Now I rarely lose interest in creating a level because of the looks of it, but just getting bored with it

2010-11-10 17:26:00 Author: Unknown User

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Maybe Mm could let people flag a level as a tutorial or template (I'm not in the beta, so maybe they have already), so that people looking for that kind of thing have a section to look in and those who are logging in to play community levels will be able to find them without all the tutorials, costume & sticker levels showing up in their searches. Maybe these mini-levels wouldn't count against your level quota either, that would be good incentive for people to create them. Looking at the direction the game is taking, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Mm created an assets library online of gadgets and gizmos so that you could download them directly to you library (or at least point you to the level that contains the prize). When you publish a level you get to tag it with some predefined tags and one of them is tutorial. So you can just search levels by that tag.

2010-11-10 17:27:00 Author: robotiod Posts: 2662

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i think this thread was one of the most heated debates i have ever seen.but i really liked the idea of giving objectives in create mode ,but it would be to difficult since MM doesnt know wat ur thinking of.

2010-11-11 03:36:00 Author: majormel84 Posts: 398

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Interesting debate going on here. I like! I agree with people who have said that LBP and MNR are totally different types of games and shouldn't really be compared. Because they are both in the 'play create share' genre, they often get labelled together but they are striving for totally different things. LBP is all about imagination and pushing the boundaries of what is possible. MNR is about makings tracks fast and easily (mostly by letting the game do it for you). To say that LBP should go down a similar 'auto populate' route is completely the opposite of what Mm are trying to achieve (IMO). In regards to the tutorials, this is a double edged sword and they were an incredible hard thing to balance. The objective of each tutorial is to give you an idea of what the tool is for, not necessarily what you can do with it. Players have the whole of the story mode to inspire them and see the kind of things you are capable of producing when using the tools in clever ways, the tutorials are made to be simple by definition. While seeing them in context of gameplay would certainly give players a better idea of what they can do, it could potentially then pigeon hole that tool for a lot of people. LBP is all about imagination, it is up to the creators to find ingenious ways to use them, the tutorials are merely there to tell you what the tool is for. With the number of tweaks being far bigger than in LBP1, it is impossible to include everything that each function can do. People have already said that they found it hard to get through the tutorials as they are now, and that is with the information in them being relatively minimal. Imagine if each tweak setting was commented on, telling you exactly what it was for and when it could be used...they would be become unbearably tiresome. Having them be so long and in depth would also against what the tutorials are trying to achieve, they are made to be your first experience of create mode. Hearing Stephen Fry reel off a massive list of tweak setting would be incredibly daunting to a lot of new players. The idea is to teach them the basic function of the tool, and then let them take it from there. A lot of the things that you can do with the tools don't make a lot of sense until you actually try them yourself and experiment. (Which Stephen actually says himself quite a few times ) What people are may be forgetting is that the tutorials alone are not supposed to teach you everything. The story mode, Mm's own objects (that you can dissect the logic on), the community, and the levels that creators make, all play a massive part in that. Basically, the tutorials are a starting point. Giving you the basic information on the tools and helping you understand its primary function. It is then down to the creator to build on that and take it wherever they want Now there's no doubt that this direction can be argued and debated all day and night, I just thought I'd give an insight into how Mm wanted to go about them, and what they are actually trying to achieve with them Just to note, the tutorial videos/levels in the beta are not final versions, (as you may have guessed with some videos not being present etc)

2010-11-11 04:41:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

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[QUOTE=jackofcourse;680074Imagine if each tweak setting was commented on, telling you exactly what it was for and when it could be used...they would be become unbearably tiresome.[/QUOTE] Then imagine if they furthered that by going through each permutation of combinations of tweak settings, because arguably the tweak settings are far from a sum of their parts

2010-11-11 09:53:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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My problems with the tutorials have nothing to do with amount of information, it's their verbosity. They talk too **** much just to get a simple point across. If I can barely stand it, how can a little kid all ADD'd up sit through it? Hopefully he'll be ADD'd up enough to just try the tools for himself, but I'm hoping for more succinctness in the final game.

2010-11-11 14:15:00 Author: Foofles Posts: 2278

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MNR is not about imagination? All user generated content games all about imagination and pushing the boundaries of what is possible (2nd thing is generated by the user it's not creator intention, whatever editor you make user always will do that) and MNR or even Spore is no diffrent. If MNR is about makings tracks fast and easily (mostly by letting the game do it for you), there "mostly" no point of any kind of editor, but generatior... but it got editor that you can do everything with that function, to generate something for the beginning, in fact LBP1 have the same function in LBP1 with terrain templates, it's only 5% if not lower what you can do with it. Besides your if you just let game do track for you such published track won't go far in ranks So what LBP and MNR is different? is there genres genre and it's issues in terms of user generation, LBP and MNR hits complily different problems here: 1. It's near impossible to make good working platforming level generator that have all features what platforming level should have, generating track is simple as generating 3D oval shape and thats it 2. Racing is not story driven as platforming games can be, racing is about racing on a track, platforming is about advanture. Both games delivers tools to make areas to do those things, but LBP got tools to make your level story-driven, MNR don't have them since they don't need that since only goal is finish the race, they only got trigger system for shortcuts thats it. Eventually tools allowing to make game story driven eventually allows to create "games in game" as we seen in LBP1 and now LBP2, you can see exacly the same things happens in FPPs, TPPs, RTSs, all genres that needs story they eventually end up having games inside them if they got editor. 3.Making platforming level is not easy as making race track, race track planng ends up on good look and fun track shape and object placements, in platforming level you need something more to look cool, you need a story you need more complex obsticules, you need to make characters etc. this requiere more effert to people ceating content, and we talking about that in this thread btw All Play, Create, Share games all all about the same: -Create content -Share that content -Play that content Without imagination you create good content and you won't get good content by just computer generating it (besides oyu need to create not computer, it can only help you like auto-population in MNR or templates in LBP1), if create good content you can't share it, if you can't create and shere good content you can't play good content and have fun and whole game fails. MNR, LBP, Spore and any other games that are titles to user-generated (not computer generated) game (aka Play, Create, Shere) is about the same and it's main sales and adrvitise motor drive that also keeps game alive so if ti fails, the game fails too, only genre is different that have different level of complexity. Both LBP and MNR is made to be simple. simply content in platforming genre is not easier to create then racer

2010-11-11 16:03:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Maybe Mm should concentrate on providing more in-depth tutorials and descriptions of the various options within the editor instead of churning out loads of DLC

2010-11-11 17:32:00 Author: ARD Posts: 4291

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Having them be so long and in depth would also against what the tutorials are trying to achieve, they are made to be your first experience of create mode. Hearing Stephen Fry reel off a massive list of tweak setting would be incredibly daunting to a lot of new players. The idea is to teach them the basic function of the tool, and then let them take it from there. A lot of the things that you can do with the tools don't make a lot of sense until you actually try them yourself and experiment. (Which Stephen actually says himself quite a few times ) Then imagine if they furthered that by going through each permutation of combinations of tweak settings, because arguably the tweak settings are far from a sum of their parts I don't agree here. What I was proposing as an improvement to the tutorial system was NOT to go through all the various tweak settings and what they do. This would make it more complicated for the user! Nor was it to go through combinations of different settings and what exactly will happen when you combine a 50% strength mover with an 80% strength piston etc. The tutorials I would like are tutorials that teach you HOW to do stuff. This is what people want! This is what people make online! "How to make a bomb survival" "How to make an elevator" "How to make a tank". Now I understand that people will make this stuff anyway, but it's not always clear and it's not going to be what people look at to try and create with LBP. They will go to the official tutorials, get confused, then not even start creating. You can't pull up someone's tutorial level whilst in create mode, but you CAN pull up the official tutorials, even though they are useless. I will clarify the kind of things I want the tutorials to show - they should cover basic things that are applicable to ANY level. So for instance, a series of cascading blocks in a wave shape is a platforming staple. How about a grabbable sponge that carries you to another area? How about a tutorial teaching you how to create a top-down level in a race car? How about a tutorial showing you how to make a countdown timer and a massive explosion? How about a tutorial showing you how to remote-control sackbots and give them superpowers? How about a tutorial on how to make a firey trap with emitters that turns on and off periodically? Here on LBPC we KNOW how to make all these things. But a noob creator plonked in front of LBP2 will not know! So giving him a tutorial on how to make some cool stuff he can put in his level is great. Giving him a tutorial on how to connect a winch between two materials is NOT great. He will have no idea how to use that knowledge to make anything. Showing by example how to use the tools to create things is best. MNR is not about imagination? All user generated content games all about imagination and pushing the boundaries of what is possible (2nd thing is generated by the user it's not creator intention, whatever editor you make user always will do that) and MNR or even Spore is no diffrent. If MNR is about makings tracks fast and easily (mostly by letting the game do it for you), there "mostly" no point of any kind of editor, but generatior... but it got editor that you can do everything with that function, to generate something for the beginning, in fact LBP1 have the same function in LBP1 with terrain templates, it's only 5% if not lower what you can do with it. Besides your if you just let game do track for you such published track won't go far in ranks So what LBP and MNR is different? is there genres genre and it's issues in terms of user generation, LBP and MNR hits complily different problems here: 1. It's near impossible to make good working platforming level generator that have all features what platforming level should have, generating track is simple as generating 3D oval shape and thats it 2. Racing is not story driven as platforming games can be, racing is about racing on a track, platforming is about advanture. Both games delivers tools to make areas to do those things, but LBP got tools to make your level story-driven, MNR don't have them since they don't need that since only goal is finish the race, they only got trigger system for shortcuts thats it. Eventually tools allowing to make game story driven eventually allows to create "games in game" as we seen in LBP1 and now LBP2, you can see exacly the same things happens in FPPs, TPPs, RTSs, all genres that needs story they eventually end up having games inside them if they got editor. 3.Making platforming level is not easy as making race track, race track planng ends up on good look and fun track shape and object placements, in platforming level you need something more to look cool, you need a story you need more complex obsticules, you need to make characters etc. this requiere more effert to people ceating content, and we talking about that in this thread btw All Play, Create, Share games all all about the same: -Create content -Share that content -Play that content Without imagination you create good content and you won't get good content by just computer generating it (besides oyu need to create not computer, it can only help you like auto-population in MNR or templates in LBP1), if create good content you can't share it, if you can't create and shere good content you can't play good content and have fun and whole game fails. MNR, LBP, Spore and any other games that are titles to user-generated (not computer generated) game (aka Play, Create, Shere) is about the same and it's main sales and adrvitise motor drive that also keeps game alive so if ti fails, the game fails too, only genre is different that have different level of complexity. Both LBP and MNR is made to be simple. simply content in platforming genre is not easier to create then racer You are missing the point, I think. Given notepad and a C++ compiler, I could create the greatest 2D platforming game ever known. But it would not be easy. It would be a lot easier with a development evironment and texture editing tools, pre-built libraries and other tools to help me out. So it's possible for two things to have the same number of possibilities, but one to have a greater ease of use. Yes a platforming game requires more input to make it great. But what is wrong with saying, "I want a jungle here" and then the game will build you something that looks like a jungle? Rather than building your own trees from scratch every time. It is the difference between coding my sprites in notepad, and building them with a high-end image manipulation program. The latter will have plenty of predefined primitives, gradients, filters and effects that make my life easier. The former will have me keying in each colour by hand. The "primitives" in LBP2's case are the basic environments. A variety of cityscapes. A desert. A tropical island. The "gradients", "filters" and "effects" are the tweakable options to really customize those basic environments and make them your own. How dense is the jungle. What colours are prominent in the city. What decorations are used. What lighting is present. Then there is STILL the option to go back and tweak each individual corner, but you don't need to. This is NOT building a level for you, but what it IS doing is making it a lot easier. It has nothing to do with imagination. A good level set in the jungle is not dependent on how EXACTLY the trees look. The player still has to come up with ideas regarding the story and gameplay. They still can tweak the appearance of the jungle to suit their vision. They still have complete control over everything in their level. It's like if I say, "I want to set this image against a blue/white gradient background and apply a film grain filter" - the imagination is there to completely specify exactly what I want, but if I have to code in values by hand, it's tedious. I think the only real objection to this is that it would be too hard for MM to create the tool with enough variety such that the environments didn't get repetitive. If it worked well enough to create your own unique feel in your level then I can only see it as a good thing.

2010-11-11 17:33:00 Author: thor Posts: 388

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Am I the only one who really enjoys doing the aspects of creation that I'm not good at??? NO!! I just love the satisfaction i get from finally fixing up some complicated gizmo or whatever, im not so great at logic but when i do make something im happy with im sure that i feel better than i would if i was very confident at logic making the same thing (am i making sense) i enjoy the challenge of working out how to do it often more than the actual object or gameplay item i have just created. Also i think that the main big reason we shouldnt equate LBP and MNR is that MNR can ONLY be used to make races. This means that things like the autopopulate tool in MNR are required for making race levels, but the fact that LBP is so versatile that you can create levels that Mm may have never thought of, how do you expect Mm to make an autopopulate tool for us that can easily make a racer, a puzzler, a platformer, an rpg, a survival challenge, a movie, a piece of music, or anything that you can think of putting in a level. I strongly oppose the suggestion that Mm make a tool for us like this, simply because it would limit our creations to a few idea Mm could come up with and not be for the community to make with LBP what they would want, this could be detrimental to the diversity of the creations we see in the community pages

2010-11-11 17:48:00 Author: Skalio- Posts: 920

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@thor, but you can set every individual object where you want it to be, even with presets you still need imagination where to place them, how to set them. Yes you can say "i want jungle there" but you need to show where is "there" and to do that you need imagination. Besides to do good showy track you need to use advance tools anyway and you need to have lot of imagination. Yea i can do crappy random track, but i can do crappy random level on LBP too. Both games are set to be simple that everyone should able to create, but it's easier to make simple racing editor then platforming editor becoming you need to input more in to it because computer CAN'T do that for you as it can in racing game. And thats my point, thats the issue of LBP simplicity in platforming genre, issues is computer can't help you much in platforming level making. It's a genre issue not the fact that game don't want to be simple in some aspect, since it want to be simple but it can't

2010-11-11 18:08:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Great points made on both sides of the debate so far. As stated numerous times, practice is the only thing that will make you a better creator and get quicker at it in time as well (to a degree). However, there is no doubt that the game could use some help in the.... erhm... "Help" department. Anyone defending the tutorials has a "roo' loose in the paddock" as far as I'm concerned. The tutorials just plain suck... period! They were garbage in the first game, and are no better in #2. No one is saying the tutorials should be so in depth that they sound like a lecture at University on the intricacies of putting a man on the moon using actual teleporter technology using huge magnetized plates etc., but it wouldn't hurt to show a quick example of how to combine a few things to make one in game and how the original creator/players did it. Instead, they choose to show us how to get a cow to fly away from us (as mentioned)... which is both insulting and ridiculous to new players and old alike. I love that they got Steven to do the voice overs as it adds great charm to the game, but I'd rather not hear him at all if he's not going to explain anything that's actually useful. They miss tons of tweaks in the tutorials... and have since the first game. How many people here actually know what the heck "Local Space" settings are for? I've turned that stupid setting on and off a bunch of times in the beta and have never seen a difference in my objects or the environment.... so what the heck is it even there for? I guess Mm thought Steven should spend more time trying to get meaningless chuckles out of us than explaining that "Local Space" is something only the man behind the curtain should know right? If we're lucky, the full game will have more in-depth tutorials to explain what was not in the beta... but to be honest, I don't have much faith that it will. I don't even know why they bothered giving us a small portion of tutorials and left out things we clearly could make use of in the beta. Honestly folks, they want us to beta test.... but don't give us the necessary knowledge of the tools and thier functions to start creating and testing properly. I just wonder how many bugs might be missed because of a lack of informative tutorials on what things are for and capable of doing in the game? I like to think I'm a pretty smart guy, but I'm definitely more of a "visual and hands on" kind of learner. I'm constantly looking at threads about logic here in order to try and better understand how it all works. Unfortunately though, people like RTM and the rest of the "Logic-Savvy" folk discuss it at their own pace (which we can't fault them for). I need someone to talk to me like I'm a 3 year old when it comes to this stuff, because it's all an abstract concept to me. Logic is not a tangible thing, so I have trouble wrapping my mind around it. If Steven can talk to us like we're a 3 year old about making cow fly, why can't he do the same for basic logic? Heck... I can't even figure out how to get something to appear for a certain amount of time from an emitter, turn back off, and have that switch re-set until it's pulled again with the new logic. I honestly thought the new logic would be there to help us... but the more I use it the more I realize that's just not the case. I guess I'll have to hit the library and start learning logic on my own if I want my levels to do anything I actually want them to do... because there is zero help on that from the tutorials. As for creating being difficult in general... yes, it is. The truth is that some things can be learned while others can not. Logic... that can be learned. Making something look amazing... not so much. I think every creator can improve his/her visual skills to a degree over time with lot's of practice and using other artists styles as a refernce and starting point, but the truth is that most visual artists are born that way. It's called talent for a reason. People are amazed by it because it's a rare quality that most do not possess. It sucks... because it's true. Most artists I know don't even think it's a big deal because it comes so naturally... like walking and eating at the same time... it's just not hard for them to do. I think Coasterfreak said it best in his post. Being able to accept your own creative level and style is all you can do at first. I've seen his stuff and I think his style is great! I think (like most people) he is too hard on himself where visuals are concerned. His style is totally unique to him and nothing like mine... which is good because otherwise we'd all be playing levels that looked the same. I understand that people want to crank out levels, props, vehicles, and other stuff that looks stunning... but that takes a combination of time, planning, and intuition. The good new it that to some degree, it can be worked on and improved over time... like anything else. As for "team creating", this is easier said than done. You need to really get along with eveyone involved, and literally have a Team Leader. One person in charge who has the right to "Vito" or trump all decisions made for the greater good of the level. That's a tough pill to swallow if you aren't the one in charge holding the "Sceptre of Power". That, or you have to be able to team create and not get very attached to the project being worked on... which is also not an easy thing to do. I've done the OC thing with Coasterfreak, and to be honest... I just sit there watching him muddle with logic. I'm almost afraid to even start creating anything because I have different goals in mind then he does. I know that my style is my own, and that it may not (and likely won't) meld well with his style. That makes it tough to do. It's great for me, because I can learn a bit about logic when he has time to explain it to me... but I'm not sure that I have anything to give back in return. I'm a visual guy, and that is something that is hard to teach because like I said... it just comes naturally and most artists don't even know where this stuff comes from. To the point of having a data base of community created objects... great idea! Unfortunately, most creators are putting their time and efforts into their own things. Sure you get guys like Sehven who make awesome things and then kindly give them away to the community... but he's a rarity in the community. Also, he makes such unique items that it would get boring seeing his wonderful creations in a bunch of levels. We could ask him to start making standard items like chairs, tables, cars, etc. but that wouldn't be fair to him to even ask... not to mention the level of boredome he'd endure spending time on simple things of that nature. The idea of a school would never work for the reasons already stated. The main one being that most creators are already busy building their own things, and shouldn't feel "obliged" to help the rest of the community. I've thought of starting a series of Youtube video tutorials on how to create from a visual point of view... but that's both time consuming, as well as difficult to "teach" for the reasons I've already stated. It sucks, because my strong points are visuals and I feel lke I have no way to really give to the community in this regard. I think the best thing for creators to do, is both practice as well as watch youtube tutorials, read tutorials here, and generally watch what the rest of the community is doing. I was really hoping the game would give me the understanding of the new tools that I need to make amazing levels of my own... but that is sadly not the case. I will need to get off my butt, read more on the internet about Logic, and ask more questions of this extremely helpful community. Wait... am I still even on topic anymore? What were we talking about again?

2010-11-11 19:29:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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..."not giving anything back" You're a Great Friend (tm), and you keep me accpmpanied. Lonely creator is lonely. Happy creator is productive. ...and I agree that the tutorials are there just for getting started, and you're expected to faff around with the things and discover things, but [unfair generalization] not too many younger folk have the persistence to do it, 'cause they probably expect that they'll create a level alike Cave of the Beh'Tas's awesome in an hour. Obviously it won't happen - they get frustrated, bored and go H4H. [/unfair generalization] Just faff around, don't take it too seriously, and have a but more experienced friend to hold your hand and/or talk you through some of the functions of things. That's how the most of us did it

2010-11-11 19:59:00 Author: Unknown User

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I just played around with the tools until I knew how to use them. Why is that such a problem?

2010-11-11 20:13:00 Author: Unknown User

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I'd like to hear from other beta users how they've found the new tools, we've not really discussed the bigger picture at great length in the beta forum and this thread seems as good a place as any. My thoughts are that while the new logic is obviously fantastic for us hardcore'ers, it's the multi-functional bits in particular that are gonna need some really deft use of explanation to get players (especially the new ones) enthused and empowered rather than overwhelmed. ''Here is a piece of string to tie stuff together' is a lot more universal than 'Here is an XOR gate which can be used in conjunction with a counter''. I can imagine how tricky it is get tutorials that walk the line of being simple enough for anyone to understand, but also get across all the basic info you need to actually make practical use of the thing. Stephen Fry attempting to make a Directional Combiner sound like fun might end up making for as much entertainment as the actual game, heh heh. I'm curious how the new logic style will get represented in Story mode as additional examples of how to build. Will the microchip set-ups be visible...etc It's going to be interesting to see if the sort of players that spent a few hours in LBP1's create mode, only to give up due to the fiddlyness of it all, are going to find the new methods easier to embrace? What you reckon? If I was at MM, I would consider giving away a few basic mechanics such as elevators/vehicles this time around, anything that's the seemingly simple but in reality, relatively tricky to get right kind of thing that put a lot of new players off creating in the first game.

2010-11-11 20:17:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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Local space moves things relative to the orientation of the object. So switch on local space and turn the object 90 degrees and left / right become up / down.

2010-11-11 20:20:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I think people are going about making the LBP community a better place the wrong way. I think that the reason people copy other level?s and make bomb survivals and generally behave anti social is not because there trying to be malicious or because there lazy, It's because that?s all they know. It's daunting to start out level?s with so much blank space and most people just don't have the time for quality time. Most of the player?s are kids and kids are in general and imaginative bunch but create mode requires too much of there time. Kids can?t spend 6 hours a day craft ting a wonderful level but they still want to succeed and become popular. So what can we do about this? What about Schools? An accomplished creator takes a beginner under their wing and teaches them the basics. There could be a level like the logic pack, which would explain the basics. Because if everyone had a choice between making an awesome level or a copied bomb survival which would they choose? Most people would choose the awesome level. I have loads of great ideas but none of them ever reach the light of day because I don't have the skills to back it up. I?m not allowed to pull all nighters playing video games. I think that LBP2 should be well easier. At least in create mode. A good idea would be having level templates only this time round it could be a FPS template, A minigame template, A racing game ect. I just think that with all the complicated logic tools Little Big Planets create mode is too hard. Even if create mode is shorter and more advance I can still imagine everyone having trouble. I also don't believe in patronizing beginners. There shouldn?t be a NOOB and AWSOME AND TALENTED CREATOR MODE with the NOOB mode having less tools. Does anyone else have any ideas about how to make Little Big Planet create mode easier? You're right! It's too hard, I'm 12, I want <3'z but I can't spend 6 hours a day on LBP! I have school and SpongeBob and sleep time, that's already too much work in a day. I hate LBP. *Throws remote at stray-cat.

2010-11-11 20:31:00 Author: X-FROGBOY-X Posts: 1800

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@julesyjules i found that using the new logic tools hasnt been that hard for me, only because i have a working knowledge of basic gates from the LBPC logic pack, but at the same time i havent been entirely succesful working more comlicated logic out on my own, and would benefit IMO from more in depth tutorials (for logic gates anyway). at the same time i have made a few intricate systems like a keyrrom where you have to grab the right buttons in sequence, although like everyone has stated many times : this came about due to experimenting and practising and gaining some knowledge of what individual logic gates can do in lbp2, i certainly couldnt have come straight out of the tutorials and made this funny thing actually, while i was writing this my brother sitting behind me playing the Beta just said "if it wernet for lbp1 i wouldnt have known how to do that" and he doesnt even know that im writing this

2010-11-11 20:33:00 Author: Skalio- Posts: 920

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You're right! It's too hard, I'm 12, I want <3'z but I can't spend 6 hours a day on LBP! I have school and SpongeBob and sleep time, that's already too much work in a day. I hate LBP. *Throws remote at stray-cat. From the mouths of babes. (that's not an insult by any means FROGBOY).

2010-11-11 21:31:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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@Rustbukkit You more or less said how i been feeling about all of this, I'm a Artist in both real life and on LBP, So when MM said even Us Artist types this time around can make far better logic more easy... was only like 30% true IMO, :/ i'm having trouble making things i was under the idea would have been easy to make -_- lucky im doing not to bad with sackbots... but its hardwork and is taking me along time to learn... plus is it just me? i feel making stickers and monster models more easy to do on LBP1? *mew

2010-11-11 23:56:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261

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There are some important arguments here, maybe I just got a bit late to the whole discussion, but I can resume it into one thing: If things were easy everybody would be able to achieve them. If you want something good done you have to get practice and make an effort, rewards such as having lots of plays, lots of hearts, recognition or simply having fun with your awesome inventions has its price and you have to achieve it, skipping all the effort that lots of people has undergone to create a masterpiece would seem pointless if everyone could achieve it without so much work. (Now this opinion is only directed at the statement that anybody should be able to do good levels at the first try, I do still think that some tools are quite complex to use).

2010-11-12 02:08:00 Author: Ragnarok Posts: 898

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Out of general curiosity, does anyone think they'll find LBP2 logic harder than LBP logic? I've found that I can make logic to do almost anything I want it to, it may not be the most thermo efficient or well designed but it works. Yet I don't understand a word of what the logic savvy around here say when then talk logic. I think of logic along the lines of this key activates this piston which activates these keys turning this wheel etc. In other words I understand the physical movements in logic, yet in LBP2 the logic doesn't move. It's just a bunch of squares and wires to me at the moment. I'm sure I'll learn to use it eventually but I was just wondering if anyone else is like this.

2010-11-12 02:44:00 Author: SR20DETDOG Posts: 2431

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The LBP2 logic is a lot simpler to understand in abstract terms since you can directly translate it to words "If this , this, and this , then do this" .. or "If this or this, do that" ... To do the same in LBP1 was just a mess of pistons and whatnot and this is all the best move.

2010-11-12 02:50:00 Author: Foofles Posts: 2278

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Every tutorial I've seen so far (lbp1 and vids of the beta's) all boil down to "connect bolt to wood. Okay, done!" At the very least, I'd like some picture guides. Not videos, just pictures and text. I understand not everything has to be Steven gently caressing our ears and whispering sweet nothings into it. Like, I want to find a way to make pistons strong so they don't bend and snap.. or more practical uses for rope.. or heck, maybe just an encyclopedia of LBP's tools so we can demystify emitters. I'd like to understand what things are before I break my entire level from backwards motorbolts and broken logic.

2010-11-12 03:59:00 Author: Cheezy WEAPON Posts: 283

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Out of general curiosity, does anyone think they'll find LBP2 logic harder than LBP logic? I've found that I can make logic to do almost anything I want it to, it may not be the most thermo efficient or well designed but it works. Yet I don't understand a word of what the logic savvy around here say when then talk logic. I think of logic along the lines of this key activates this piston which activates these keys turning this wheel etc. In other words I understand the physical movements in logic, yet in LBP2 the logic doesn't move. It's just a bunch of squares and wires to me at the moment. I'm sure I'll learn to use it eventually but I was just wondering if anyone else is like this. That's exactly how I'm feeling. As I said, I'm a hands on and visual learner, and in LBP I could at least "see" what was happening with the logic once it started to work. I didn't know what any of the names were of any of the systems I was using or accidentally inventing on my own sometimes (Not, XOR, And, Zanzabar, or whatever), but I could see the pistons, keys, etc moving in conjunction to each other and how they were being affected. With the new logic, I still don't know the names, what they do, or why they work the way they do. I'm totally in the dark now. My visuals are better because I can actually build more like sculpting with balsa wood and plastic as I do in the real world and can see behind layers with the new "hide layer" feature (which is one of the best new create features for those who don't have the beta), but I can't do nearly as much as I could with LBP where logic is concerned. I think it was actually Coasterfreak who looked at what I was trying to do with something and was like, "Uhhhh.... why are you still using pistons and mag keys? The new logic makes that much easier and thermo-friendly." Truth is, I spent HOURS trying to make it work with the new logic and had to give up and resort to tried and true methods I knew would work and give me the result I wanted. I was so frustrated... and still am. That's why I'm really ticked off with the tutorials and lack of solid info given in them. They simply need to give better examples of how the logic works in most cases. I understand what a mover does, but not which switches to hook up to it to make it do something specific and why one switch is better than another. The LBP2 logic is a lot simpler to understand in abstract terms since you can directly translate it to words "If this , this, and this , then do this" .. or "If this or this, do that" ... To do the same in LBP1 was just a mess of pistons and whatnot and this is all the best move. I think this is partially why I'm having so much trouble as well. Perhaps if I'd never had to learn logic the old way, I might be able to better embrace the abstract concepts and just trust in the "magic hat" that is logic. I'm literally trying to UN-learn what I already know a bit about, and think in ways I'm not used to. I feel just as frustrated as I used to in school with math. I couldn't understand mathematic equations because there was nothing physical to reference things against... just a bunch of meaningless numbers to me. People are always surprised when I tell them I failed Geography twice... because I'm a "visual" person and it's all about maps and the rest of it. I couldn't comprehend geography becasue I couldn't relate to how big I was in comparison to anything on a globe or a map.... it made my head explode not being able to see something in size relation to the world I knew around me. The new logic is the same for me... I can't "see" what it's doing so I haven't a clue how to apply it to my creations to make them work. To be honest, the beta for me is just a better way to make things look nice at this point. There's no way I'll get anything published for the beta because I'm so confused and don't even want to bother with the logic until either the game comes out with better tutorials, or some of the members here start making threads on how to use basic logic for the rest of us to learn from. I know there are a few... but most of the discussions are based around specific questions people are asking to help them with their own creations. If I could learn some decent logic, I'm sure I could bang out some great levels.... but at this rate I'm afraid I'll just continue to be someone who creates nice looking stuff that just sits there and looks good. Meh... I guess I could open up an LBP gallery and just have art shows once a month. :S

2010-11-12 05:26:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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I haven't found the new logic -too- hard. It's still rather visual (you see the wire paths light up when they are activated, etc), which is something I wanted in LBP1, so yay. The new logic a lot easier to work with, you don't need to stiffen pistons, etc.. so it's a lot quicker too. I can't get a few contraptions going, I would say the logic required is intermediate-advanced, so I'm not losing sleep over it. If I had enough patience and someone to hold my hand it could be achieved. So the end result is... The same as LBP1, but faster and more thermo friendly. Plus I can make flying vehicles now, because of the gyro.

2010-11-12 05:39:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

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For some reason I'm never fully comforable when there's a Timer somewhere in my logic networks. Although I am "logic-savvy", or because it, I found the new logix to be rather easy to adapt to. Their style is simpler and nicer. Though, the fact is: if you didn't know how to use logic in LBP1, you probably won't know what to do with it in LBP2.

2010-11-12 06:03:00 Author: Unknown User

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what they hell are some people on about. LBP2 simplified logic beyond comprehension, first time I looked at it, it spoke to me, I understood the whole concept just by looking at the names of the logic chips and now I'm not afraid to build anything complex. I never liked how people in LBP1 would have separate logic boxes with their vehicles. Making Logic in LBP1 took far too long, lets take making a simple "OR" switch. LBP 1 Pop it > Goodies bag > materials > dark matter > select > place > back out > cardboard > place > move > place > back out > back out > tool bag >...20 steps later... Done OR Pop it > Goodies bag > capture items > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > scrolling > Say to yourself, "where the hell did it go?" > scrolling > select > place. Done LBP2: Pop it > Tools bag > 'OR' chip > Place. Done. I agree on the 'Practice, Practice, Practice'. And oh, LBP1 tutorials were boring and I hated being forced to watch them, I just wanted to create! If I needed to know something I would look at the tutorial. Why force the player to do something they don't want to do?

2010-11-12 09:32:00 Author: PPp_Killer Posts: 449

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what they hell are some people on about. LBP2 simplified logic beyond comprehension, first time I looked at it, it spoke to me, I understood the whole concept just by looking at the names of the logic chips and now I'm not afraid to build anything complex. We're "on about" the huge differences between left brain and right brain oriented people and the fact that the new logic is not easier for those to use who don't already have a good understanding of it. This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the new pre-made logic tools cutting down on build times. To be honest, I didn't think you had anything positive to add to the conversation at first. Then I re-read your post and saw this what they hell are some people on about. LBP2 simplified logic beyond comprehension . Thank you for not only arguing our point, but for putting it so concisely as well.

2010-11-12 12:50:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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I agree that some of the examples are a bit strange when considering the new logic stuff in the tutorials. However it is a huge step forward. In LBP1, there was no mention of any logic beyond the grab switches, mag switches, mag keys, and the prox sensors at least that I can remember. Here they actually talk a bit about all the logic gates. Agreed some might be a bit vague or ramble on a bit much, but in LBP1 when I first got started I was stumped for awhile on how to attempt anything as any sort of circuitry was left up to you. For me coming from a programming / software background, the concept of physically moving stuff like pistons and winches to do logic just made my head hurt for a time. You did get some clues in the Story Levels from seeing these things work and thankfully some user tutorials came out a bit later. Mm themselves, put out a video concerning logic tips, but it wasn't till quite a bit after the game came out. After a few weeks, I got to the point that I could figure out how to do anything I need and continually got better as my ideas for more complex contraptions in my levels improved. However, I am already loving this new logic stuff. I have attempted some things that are quite complex and absolutely love that didn't take me twenty minutes to conjure up some wacky array of emitters, pistons etc. to do what I wanted. I was just able to plop down stuff as I needed and worked exactly as planned in a few minutes.

2010-11-12 13:22:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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Well in LBP1 logic gates was not official (not native, thats for sure) feature of the game, so no wonder there was no support for it. I believe also that they know there gonna be ton of user made tutorials, since you can do ton of things in ton of different ways and as other people said it might be to wide subject for MM tutorial, i really can't imagen how they will show how to make racer with tutorials in current form. Is someone wants raceing tutorial he can find it someway anyway. With Object database, it can be done with levels as it always been in LBP1, ofcorse native solution would be great, but on other hand community prizes might lose usage a little bit. Tutorials is the same, you can make nice tutorial levels with interactivity, me myself got incomplete tutorial about wireless logic (that is little errorus now since i learned more), i might make one on relese, beta more about experimenting and showing off hat game can do and (and on the way, reporting bugs), not educate people, there will be time for that in release game when features gonna be more stable.

2010-11-12 13:50:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Well in LBP1 logic gates was not official (not native, thats for sure) feature of the game, so no wonder there was no support for it. True, but a few hints early on would have been helpful since they obviously were utilizing it themselves. ...and anything above a super basic level, you really need them. I think that is why the finally made their tutorial. Down the road the LBPC Logic Packs came out and were so helpful for so many. I agree that after a time, there will be others creating tutorials such as you have done already. However, a bit more info in game is always helpful.. Even a nice hint of make sure to search the internet or check out such and such sites for more help. "Hi.. we are Mm, we have a website as well as links to communities" How much better could it be to make it aware to new players that they is a wealth of info out there and they may not have to struggle? For example, even TV news shows market their own websites so viewers can find out additional information.

2010-11-12 19:10:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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I think that's why MmPicks is now taking a more important role in game. Mm perhaps don't want to show you specifics in their tutorials but show the general idea of what the gates can do. Then they feature tutorials in the community that they like, that will show you how to go a bit further ... the fact that the tutorials don't go into any great depth really engenders a great community spirit, as there are many more questions to be answered and many more people willing to answer them.

2010-11-12 19:41:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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It's not hard, this is just too complicated for your brain!. nah, joking! Sorry, but i don't see whats so difficult. The logic gates are simple, i mean. Even the name on the gate explains everything.

2010-11-12 19:45:00 Author: Jonaolst Posts: 935

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The logic gates are simple, i mean. Even the name on the gate explains everything. No most of them don't, i have No idea what XOR or a NotGate means by name, plus what does a gate in this case even mean? its odd sounding plus just because its easy and understandable to you don't mean it is for others, i have to understand how the new logic works by randomly tossing them together and do tests, there names don't help -_- random testing is only way i get anywhere with logic, then i learn what does what. *mew

2010-11-12 21:42:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261

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From the mouths of babes. (that's not an insult by any means FROGBOY). I'll take it as a complement.

2010-11-12 22:05:00 Author: X-FROGBOY-X Posts: 1800

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XOR = Exclusive OR Exclusive = only one Only one input can be 1 to output 1 But yea this one need more thinking to figure just by name

2010-11-12 22:09:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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...if people would only dare to explore what things do. In LBP2, it very likely won't asplode the very fabric of your PS3 oi you try and experiment what a XOR gate does, for example. Go to a new level, wire some things to and from it, test it and be happy and get that warm and fuzzy feeling of understanding new stuff. The thing I think Mm doesn't want to be too explainative (lol, what a word) about the logix and stuff is that they don't want to box our thoughts about the features' uses. For example, if they were to tell that Advanced Movers are good in making top-down stuff, then you might never try them with gravity and see that there's a ton of uses for it in that way too. ...or that may be just ridiculous

2010-11-13 16:44:00 Author: Unknown User

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I think people are going about making the LBP community a better place the wrong way. I think that the reason people copy other level?s and make bomb survivals and generally behave anti social is not because there trying to be malicious or because there lazy, It's because that?s all they know. It's daunting to start out level?s with so much blank space and most people just don't have the time for quality time. Most of the player?s are kids and kids are in general and imaginative bunch but create mode requires too much of there time. Kids can?t spend 6 hours a day craft ting a wonderful level but they still want to succeed and become popular. So what can we do about this? What about Schools? An accomplished creator takes a beginner under their wing and teaches them the basics. There could be a level like the logic pack, which would explain the basics. Because if everyone had a choice between making an awesome level or a copied bomb survival which would they choose? Most people would choose the awesome level. I have loads of great ideas but none of them ever reach the light of day because I don't have the skills to back it up. I?m not allowed to pull all nighters playing video games. I think that LBP2 should be well easier. At least in create mode. A good idea would be having level templates only this time round it could be a FPS template, A minigame template, A racing game ect. I just think that with all the complicated logic tools Little Big Planets create mode is too hard. Even if create mode is shorter and more advance I can still imagine everyone having trouble. I also don't believe in patronizing beginners. There shouldn?t be a NOOB and AWSOME AND TALENTED CREATOR MODE with the NOOB mode having less tools. Does anyone else have any ideas about how to make Little Big Planet create mode easier? I get what you're saying and my feeling is this. The story mode is for the kids and adults but the create mode is for older kids and adults with the option for kids as they get older to learn. There is no bias here because eventually the kids will get it and besides who has more time to create levels than kids? I am 33 have 2 kids and work a full time plus job and make time here and there for LBP. The problem with copying levels and rehashing ideas is it clogs up the system and then there is no room for everyone(including kids) to showcase their creation. If you want pointers I can help you with whatever I know and you can always post a thread in the help section if that doesn't work. Hope this reply helps.

2010-11-13 21:35:00 Author: KILLA_TODDZILLA Posts: 653

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For me coming from a programming / software background, the concept of physically moving stuff like pistons and winches to do logic just made my head hurt for a time. You did get some clues in the Story Levels from seeing these things work and thankfully some user tutorials came out a bit later. That's how I feel about the create tools in LBP1. They're too mechanically oriented and not usable enough for the general gaming population. Even if you do understand the fundamentals of logic, finding a way to rig it with the tools provided can sometimes take as long as conceptualizing the level itself. That's why I think the tools in LBP2 are a huge step forward, especially for people who are more creative as I am. With the setup time required diminished for the more subtle nuances of gameplay, I think that a lot more people are going to be creating this time around, and the community levels should reflect a much broader range of gameplay types, as well as a step up in quality... or at the very least the sharks survival levels might actually last more than 30 seconds.

2010-11-13 23:15:00 Author: Chazprime Posts: 587

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Well, lets go back to our wonderful game's release. There was a level called LittleBigCalculator (it's still out today!) and it looked like an ordinary calculator. But when you see the logic, it BLOWS YOUR MIND. I'm not sure if anyone else today has made THAT much logic. Why am I saying this? Well, the creator didn't need a template- he found it out ALONE (online create didn't exist back then!) Now, think of how all that logic has been compressed into at least its original size divided by what- 8? (which is big by the terms I'm speaking) In LBP2, you might be able to make a movie-a real film, and you'll have to do a lot of work to do it too, but the result is amazing. Being a creator takes time: I've been playing LBP BEFORE release, and I've only nailed the basics down a while ago. (LBP is around 2 years old) Basically, we can all do brilliant things but there is a process of hard work we usually try to skip- trying, exploring, failing, getting frustrated, throwing our controller across the room and occasionally out the window, and getting the controller to try again. Long story short, success doesn't come without hard work.

2010-11-14 00:31:00 Author: JspOt Posts: 3607

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That's how I feel about the create tools in LBP1. I'm amazed at how this is the complete opposite of me. They're too mechanically oriented and not usable enough for the general gaming population. Even if you do understand the fundamentals of logic, finding a way to rig it with the tools provided can sometimes take as long as conceptualizing the level itself. I didn't understand, and still don't really, any of the fundamentals of logic. The fact that is was so mechanically orientated meant that I didn't need to, I could rig up a reasonable chunk of logic in under 10min. LBP2 logic however, well, we'll see.

2010-11-14 07:18:00 Author: SR20DETDOG Posts: 2431

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I had a bit of trouble figuring out how to use lbp2 tools to do some of the things that I used to do in lbp, but I think I've mostly got it figured out now. There's still a few things that I can't think of a lbp2 method: just the other day, I was talking about recording inputs to a controllinator on a timeline so that a sackbot could follow and exactly repeat what the player did and I couldn't come up with a non-mechanical way of doing it; but for the most part, the lbp2 tech isn't too tough once you get used to it and get to where you can understand the reasoning behind why things work the way they do. I still sometimes have to fiddle with my circuits because they don't do exactly what I thought they would when I built 'em, but it's getting easier. As has been said, you gotta' put in the work to reap the rewards... that or just wait for Rtm to spell it all out in a blog

2010-11-14 09:39:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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"sigh " Obviusly the right answer is that we only need a few expert creators....The dumb noobs are good for nothing but giving us plays.. Thats why i recomend having MM updating their MM picks in lbp2 every 2 weeks or so + having it first instead of a personalized cool page.. This way it will be 100 percent quality and if you don't have the skills or devotion to make something good enough then that sucksf or you ^^. When i play i want the levels to be 100 percent amazing at least! Thats why i think that we should Have high requirements for raters, you need to compleat story mode, have atleast 1 published level with atleast 50 percent thermo, aced atleast 80 percent of all story levels, getting collect all on atleast 80 percent of all levels, have all the major DLCS like paintgun and water. And have an account on one of the major fansites ^^. If you don't meet theese criterias ur hearst/ratings will not count=Both specialized cool pages and MM picks will be amazing and all the bomb survivals will be long forgotten <3 As for create mode...Id say quality<quantity so lets make it even harder then what it is so that the noobs can't create at all while the pros can go even further = D For example why have micro chips at all ? It makes logics way to easy -.- If something is easy to make and somewhat decent ( AKA sharksurvivals, im sure the first one was fun..) then theese dumb noobs will overspamm it : ( Thats why it should be impossible or as hard as possible to have something that is both easy to make and good. It should be hard to make and good or extremly hard to make and great ! When i publish a level i spent 100s of hours on ( like my upcomming one in lbp) then i want to know that it will get alot of plays and a spot on first mm picks unless there are 20 recently published levels that are better than them ( And yes i do believe my level will be in the top 5 published for the month it is published in..* Know). I would rather have More uses/options+ harder to use then vice versa tbh... The dumb noobs will still buy lbp2.. some of them will get tired of it.. But they will still have purchased it, and with some luck some of them may repent when they are overwhelmed with awesomeness and make awesome levels themselves. Allso if it is that easy to get new excellent levels then more seriuos players will come ^^=Ka Ching for MM. And NO not all levels or players are equally worth. Is a 10 min of work bomb survival really worth more than 10 days of an awesome innovative series ? Nope... Is a noob really worth as much as hardcore players ? NOPE.. Since we contribute to the game alot more ^^ They will still buy it ; D So in conclusion we should adopt an aristocratic way in lbp2 were the better a level is, the more plays it gets.. The noobs willl serve us as they allways must ;D

2010-11-14 17:08:00 Author: Unknown User

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I'm a really lousy creator. And I like the way the LBP tools are. If I wanted to create something good, I'll have to sit down and it'll take a while. If not then I would get no hearts or whatever. I think it's fair. It's the same way in real life. The great creators learned how to use the tools just the same as anyone else can. Practice. And the little kids that don't understand them would probably rather play than create anyways. I do agree with the story objects thought though. Why is it looked down upon to use these? After all, we had to search the levels to get them. And also I think people like doubletime shouldn't be allowed to play. Just because people aren't good creators doesn't make them a dumb noob. If it wasn't for the people playing your "awesome level" would be nothing

2010-11-14 18:31:00 Author: Kitkasumass Posts: 494

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The dumb noobs are good for nothing but giving us plays Wow. Without those 'dumb noobs' the continued support of this game would not exist. There wouldn't have been any paintintator, or water, or a LBP2, or any of the other things that have kept LBP alive since the day it came out. Whilst I understand where you're coming from, the elitist attitude is totally going against the grain of what LBP is about. It's the community that has made this game what it is, not just the 100 or so top tier creators, the WHOLE community has pushed it forward. At the end of the day it is merely a game, who's to say that people shouldn't publish levels that are below yours, or mine, or anyone else's standards? Whether they have spent 10 minute, 10 hours or 10 weeks making it is irrelevant. If they've had fun creating and would like to show other people, then good for them. We all want to play great levels, but at the same time we have to respect that a lot of people love creating even if they may not be at the very top standard yet. Id say quality<quantity so lets make it even harder then what it is so that the noobs can't create at all while the pros can go even further You do realise that you've just said that you'd prefer to have lots of rubbish levels over a small number of greats ones don't you? Think that's going against the point you're trying to make... Have high requirements for raters, you need to compleat story mode, have atleast 1 published level with atleast 50 percent thermo, aced atleast 80 percent of all story levels, getting collect all on atleast 80 percent of all levels, have all the major DLCS like paintgun and water. And have an account on one of the major fansites ^^. If you don't meet theese criterias ur hearst/ratings will not count=Both specialized cool pages and MM picks will be amazing and all the bomb survivals will be long forgotten This wouldn't make bomb survivals disappear, all it would mean is that along side the bomb survivals would be levels full of junk that are over 50% thermo so people could rate. The rest of the set criteria really doesn't help distinguish between the 'good' and the 'bad' players either. I know loads of people who haven't collected all the objects, GruntosUK for example, does that mean he shouldn't be able to rate levels? I myself don't own most of the DLC, the Invincibles and Marvels packs for example, does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to rate levels? A massive part of the game is the community spirit and everybody helping each other. To start setting criteria such as that will just alienate and fragment the community, which isn't what anybody wants. I do fully understand where you're coming from and it isn't my intention to single you out. I realise that you just want people who put hard work in to get the recognition they deserve. It's just that the ways you have proposed contradict a lot of what the game is about. Mm have made the searching and finding of levels so much better for LBP2. People can search for specific types of levels that they want to play, meaning as creators we can target a specific audience and not have to worry (as much) about our levels getting hit by people who won't appreciate them, so creators who put in a lot of effort have a much better chance of getting the rewards they deserve.. The 'noobs' paid just as much for the game as the 'expert creators' and therefore deserve their place on the Community Moon just as much. It's just a game, after all.

2010-11-14 22:21:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

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jack, check your sarcasm detector... it may be malfunctioning. or maybe it got overloaded.

2010-11-14 22:28:00 Author: Deftmute Posts: 730

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jack, check your sarcasm detector... it may be malfunctioning. or maybe it got overloaded. It didn't seem that sarcastic to me...

2010-11-14 22:32:00 Author: Jedi_1993 Posts: 1518

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I consider myself to be pretty fluent in sarcasm, and I can't say I detected any there

2010-11-14 22:35:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

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The 'noobs' paid just as much for the game as the 'expert creators' and therefore deserve their place on the Community Moon just as much. It's just a game, after all. I'd have to agree. It's no different for those that buy musical instruments. Not everyone ends up being a rock star or a virtuoso. Some are satisfied just sitting on the front porch plunking on their guitar. They still have fun. ...and I think that is what it is all about. ..and I'm sure the music stores are thankful for them.

2010-11-14 23:17:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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...Obviusly the right answer is that we only need a few expert creators... The LBP2 Beta is full of expert creators mostly from this site and I see a lack of good content being produced at all. I don't agree with your "requirements" at all as they can all be faulted. Some good creators don't have any accounts on fansites. A as you say "dumb noob" could make an account of LBPC and rate a bomb survival up. Anybody could fill a level with junk, and that would promote people to publish junk.

2010-11-15 03:23:00 Author: PPp_Killer Posts: 449

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OF COURSE some pros would no longer be able to rate,,, but as pros they can read what the criterias are on diffrent fansites. If you had theese criterias then the average rating creator would be alot better and if they had all the major dlc they wouldn't be fooled by " OMGZ WATER WITH SOME JUNK " levels..remember first week after the water pack ? Or the paintator pack ? As a whole the effort put into each level on the first cool pages would quickly rise to the sky if rated raters were implemented, just something as simple as requiring the player to compleat the story mode will be enough to drasticlly improve the story mode.. The noobs can play while the pros create imho! They can try to create but the rated raters system will send their crappy levels into oblivion and YES just because we paid the same ammount of money ( Which we propably didn't since the pros are more likely to buy more DLC) Our levels are still not worth as much. How much the levels contribute to the game as a whole is what matters! A bomb survival isn't worth as much as a level that tries to be innovative for example. And we should have a more frequently refreshing version of MMPics at the first cool page in addition! If the levels that got more plays were much better, then thoose who wanted plays would work alot harder on their levels and the noobs would learn to love more complex gameplay thus leading to better taste in general ! IN lbp2 i will make a series called " save littlebigplanet " were you will fight stephanie ravens, god of the copycraze. The lord of the sharks, the reincarted Zapato( bomb survivals) An idolized Frog(For jumping levels) A klicking muppet ( For r1 races) And a big bad mysterial boss who controlls all of theese ;D And in the end you can choose to etheir convert, or kill the dumb noobs to take away power from the final boss ^^

2010-11-15 07:30:00 Author: Unknown User

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So you want to kill people because they aren't as good at a game as you are? according to you On topic, this sums up what they are doing in create- "Make it as simple as possible, but not to simple"- Albert Einstein

2010-11-15 09:25:00 Author: AA_BATTERY Posts: 1117

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doubletime's usual elitist nonsense You're bordering on being off-topic here. The discussion is on whether create mode is too difficult and how it can or whether it should be fixed, and you're using it as an excuse to spout your usual "everybody sucks but me" rants. Your first post was arguably related to the subject, but now you're just blathering on about elitism and a mean-spirited level that you plan to build. Please stick to the topic or create your own thread to discuss your "points".

2010-11-15 09:41:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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I dont think it unfair to put age into this im sure they are some young players that can make anything as good if not better then me, you do or you dont get your head around the tools its the same with anything age got nothing to do with it. I do see it over and over and we all have to start from somewhere you guys not see some of my first trys

2010-11-15 10:47:00 Author: jump_button Posts: 1014

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From all the editors I have worked with. (3dsmax 4,5,6,7,8), unreal editor (UED) 1.0, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, N+editor, HDtrialEd, LBPed, 16bit game/romhack editors, rpg creators, Reason, AbletonLive, and Photoshop.. the N+Editor and LBPeditor are by far the easiest to work with. If you really like creating. Just take your time and practice. but imho, If you cant create or just copy levels to get plays.. dont.. just dont.

2010-11-15 13:01:00 Author: Luos_83 Posts: 2136

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What I've seen of the LBP2 tutorials is all pretty pointless... I knew this would be the case going in though, I spent my first two weeks of the beta tutorial-less... Just creating. And you know what? I found myself understanding alot but scratching my head far more often. I couldn't finish anything as I initially conceptualizied it in my head-- It was LBP1 all over again! The tutorials would have been far smarter feeding directly into 'My Moon' allowing the budding creator to 'build' (ahem) directly onto what he had previously learned with each additional tutelage-- until at the end you should have (in theory) a working level to reference back to for all eternity. The idea of a community 'object or logic' search in create mode is sheer brilliance! It literally took me 10 months and the Logic Pack to conquer Create Mode in LBP1... and I will never be known as a logic pioneer. LBP2 is much the same I am afraid. Square one all over again... Except this time it feels like the 2 years I've invested have been completely wasted. Even my old levels will be swept away-- time marches on and sweeps everything I know away. I am happy and sad all at once. I really wish LBP2 was optional DLC packs so everything didn't have to change (but that is a discussion of another colour). Now with all that said, I expect my learning curve to be much improved this time around...( but for me), I'm afraid I may still have to rely on the community to catch me logically up to speed. I mean, even spawning into a sackbot is taking me forever to figure out!!! (and an on-going process: with camera manipulations and whatnot) I am waiting for that epiphany! Until then it's trial and error I am afraid. I would not say LBP2's create mode is harder, just more of the same really. And to be honest, I must be in the majority-- because there is a real lack of quality levels to be played! I mean I could understand not publishing something great to the beta because you are almost guaranteed to looses it, (but I don't think that's the case).

2010-11-15 16:51:00 Author: Gravel Posts: 1308

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Nah, tutorials are useful i started with them it give information what is what and you can experiment and learn durning them, it was good kick start for new features. Keep in mind there people who not get the basics easily specially when they hit with logic and there will be people that LBP2 will be there first LBP game

2010-11-15 17:01:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Keep in mind there people who not get the basics easily specially when they hit with logic and there will be people that LBP2 will be there first LBP game That's the problem though... even for people who don't understand the basics the tutorials don't explain much. They might tell you what something basically does, but not how to use it effectively in conjuntion with other logic. Not to mention the fact that the tutorials are just plain broken. Look at the the "Basic Mover" tutorial. There's 3 separate screens that are supposed to walk you through all three logic related items in your popit for that tutorial, yet when you press play on all 3 it's the same crappy tutorial that keeps popping up. The tutorials are an epic fail.... especially for people who don't understand logic. I understand that like anything worthwhile, you have to put in the time and effort to learn and hone your skills... but the tutorials do almost nothing to help. I mean really... anyone could figure out what a Basic Mover does by slapping one on a cow's rump... so that tutorial is complete bunk. It's basically a tutorial telling you to stick logic on things and watch what happens more than anything. There's no useful info in it.... or half of the other tutorials. All they do is tell us what we could have found out in a minute and a half of playing with them ourselfves. In my mind, that's not a tutorial. I think Mm are pretty much guaranteed that the majority of people buying this game are people already familiar with the game... not new blood. I think the tutorials should be geared towards both, but perhaps a bit more towards the existing community. What bothers me as well, is that they don't really talk about the old tools compared to the new ones. I mean... now we have movers, so does that mean I should be trying to use them instead of pistons and mag keys? If so, what logic switches to I need to hook up to the mover to get it to move back and forth a set distance like I can with a piston? Should I be using a mover in conjunction with a piston instead? I don't know? It seems like a lot of people are confused as to whether to use the old logic and tools at all, or combine it with the new? I know I am. I played around with the logic some more for about an hour last night. I finally got something to lift off the ground and go left, right, up, down... but anything else I could make it do in LBP was seemingly impossible with the new tools and logic. I tried adding a piston to the equation (because I KNOW that method will work in LBP), and the whole thing stopped working. It's ridiculous to me. I'm pretty much as lost as I was a month ago where logic is concerned. Right now I mostly have a bunch of great looking objects that sit there and look pretty. I'm starting to think that OC is the only way to go for me. Problem with that is I'd feel like I'm just using the other person for their logic skills, and I'm not about using anyone for personal gain alone. I'd hate to think of how many younger people out there are looking at the logic and new tools wondering what to do. If the tutorials in the beta are anything to measure the final games' ones by, I think we'll be seeing just as many "Bomb the Giant Shark Destroying the City" levels as we did in the first game. The tutorials weren't much help in the first game, and like Gravel said... it's really just more of the same as in LBP.

2010-11-15 17:42:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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[color=teal]That's the problem though... even for people who don't understand the basics the tutorials don't explain much. They might tell you what something basically does, but not how to use it effectively in conjuntion with other logic. Not explain much? What specific element do it's one first thing that you learn in electornical school, then you make useless circuits just to learn how electronically values behave in them (but LBP2 don't need that since it's signal it's much simpler then electricity) You can't start to do anything without knowing what element do what, so those tutorials are good start, when you know about elements your head might start work. What you expect? tutorials that learn you how to make racers without you knowing what element make your objects move? that will make more confusion then make people do something good. Also don't forget majority of LBP player are normal players who play our levels just for fun, and not creating or creating crap, i got some friends at GameSpot that are hype just by looking on level that people make and can't wait to check up. So game will sell anyway. If you mean new creative blood then guess what i started do levels in May this year, there always will be someone new Besides we don't need to be master of logic to do good levels

2010-11-15 19:35:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Also, Mm clearly stated that the LBP2 tutorials were unfinished, so it's a bit silly to complain that some of them were broken, and not every tool has a tutorial.

2010-11-15 23:23:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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i found the tutorials i watched on youtube about all the logic really usefull and i have a much bigger understanding of it now then before because in lbp1 you got to build your AND and OR gates and what not, and it got me really confused sometimes with all the stuff and wires all over the place. But in lbp2 everything is much tidier and i find myself coming up with advanced ideas that i wouldnt even try in the first game just because of getting confused by the mess of logic everwhere. the tutorials for me are great and simple to understand and i think it will get more people to start messing with logic insted of being scared of it like i was at the start.

2010-11-15 23:32:00 Author: artise Posts: 353

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Yeah I agree with artise that with all the new switches and better logic its much easier to make levels. I personally dont have the beta but I have some huge things planned for that game also I'm sure MM will make tutorials for all those scary hard to understand logic pieces and materials. (Hopefully ) So just don't worry about the Create mode being to HARD because MM will again (hopefully) tell us all we need to know about the new stuff. lol probably

2010-11-15 23:57:00 Author: Unknown User

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... anyone could figure out what a Basic Mover does by slapping one on a cow's rump... so that tutorial is complete bunk. It's basically a tutorial telling you to stick logic on things and watch what happens more than anything. Well, some people might not be as intuitive as you, and the tutorial provides the initial nudge. If the tutorial told you exactly where to use the object, it would discourage experimentation. And without experimentation, LBP would be a very boring place. Remember too that the tutorials have to be digestible for 7 year olds. They'd more than likely die of boredom if someone sat down listing all the possible uses of AND gates.

2010-11-16 00:05:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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Some interesting points. I went into the beta with a pretty good understanding of lbp1 logic and I'd seen lots of posts and vids about the lbp2 logic, so there really wasn't anything in the tuts for me. Consequently, I pretty much ignored them and I have no idea how effective they are for experienced logicians or newcomers. Everything I know about lbp2 logic came from reading/watching community member's tutorials and comments and from my own experimentation. In that sense, it would indeed seem that the in-game tutorials are kind of ineffective. Still, as has been said, the game is targeted for people ages 7 and up, so if the tutorials went into lots of detail, it would mostly go over their heads: lbp is meant to be as accessible as possible and Mm surely wouldn't want to undermine that with verbose tutelage. Honestly, I think the status quo is just fine. The in-game tuts give you the basics (and they'll surely be refined before the game launches to eliminate the 3x video and such) but don't go too complicated so as to lose the younger or less logically inclined players/creators: most anybody should be able to get the basic movers and such working reasonably well. For those who want to do more logically complex things, there's plenty of community support: you've got lots of tuts and youtube videos and sections on lbw, here, and probably any other lbp site to ask for help in figuring out how to do things (I started learning logic by asking how to make a piston open a door on gamefaqs.com). For anybody serious about learning logic (meaning they've actually read some tuts and really tried to work out how to do things), you can almost certainly find somebody to show you a few things in real time and explain what it does and why it works.... but don't ask me

2010-11-16 01:07:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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I too have been struggling in the beta. I've toiled over many of the same points that Rustbukkit hit on... When to use a mover and how to use it effectively, etc. I've been playing with it all weekend and most of today and it's finally starting to click - a little. But as Gravel said, it seems like a whole lot of the same thing we experienced in LBP1. I remember the tutorials then being nearly as useful as these new ones. They'd mention a tool (say the piston) and talk about two of the eleven tweak options. It took trial and error and a whole lot of forum searches and noob-ish questions before I really started to take off as a creator back in Jan-2009. So I expect a certain amount of the same learning curve with LBP2. Interesting note though... I'm a computer programmer by trade, so I was assured by folks that were in the beta before me that I was going to take to it like a fish to water. I've found this not to be the case. Early on in LBP1 I struggled fitfully to get my head around this physics-based logic that we were required to create in order to achieve our goals. Eventually I got pretty good at it. Now I find that I am having to un-learn all those habits and find new ways to get things done - which is simultaneously exciting and frustrating. But back to my point... it seems to me that the engineers (the EE's in particular) have the upper hand here. Having never studied or toyed with circuitry and electronics myself, this circuit board approach is rather new ground for me. But I will get it - eventually.

2010-11-16 02:59:00 Author: v0rtex Posts: 1878

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I agree with you Vortex and I have the same frustrations and difficulty as you do. The only way I would see the tutorial made "better" would be to make so they are steps in order to create full level. Know what I mean? Basically, if a player would follow all the tutorials of the game in order, at the end he would have a full level done in his hands. I mean, if we can learn freaking UNREAL this way, we can learn LBP2 in a snap. I just think MM couldn't think about a great tutorial design.

2010-11-16 04:50:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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it seems to me that the engineers (the EE's in particular) have the upper hand here. I don't think anything has changed here in honesty. LBP logic is, and always has been, far more an engineering thing than a programming thing, especially if your programming is relatively high level (I don't know if that is the case with you or not). Hell if your programming background is mostly high level then you might even be less well off than someone with a background in science or Maths, --------------------------------------- Overall, what I seem to be seeing here is a lot of misunderstanding about the nature of this game. People seem to be expecting to be able to do amazing things and understand every aspect of the tools and every aspect of the interaction between the tools as soon as they have completed the tutorials.... Based upon our experiences with the first game, that simply isn't going to happen. Plus every single one of you that is slating the tutorials seems to have a different view about what would have been best, which tells me (unsurprisingly), that no matter what route they take with the tutorials, they wouldn't be able to teach everything to everyone. I think part of the problem here is that people have learned tools for 2 years, and the expectation is that they should be able to utilise the new tools to reproduce anything they knew how to create in the first game. Immediately. Which is reasonable and understandable, in many ways. The new tools are "better", you've been told*, they make things easier and quicker, you've been told*. But it's a complete paradigm shift and you will need time to adjust to that. Expectation and the frustration at having to relearn is one of the biggest stumbling blocks here IMO, moreso than any particular deficiencies in the tutorials. And, at a guess, I'd say that this expectation, coupled with the confidence of having used the LBP editor for two years, and the promises of being able to create "whole games" is encouraging many people to run a hell of a long time before they can walk. Looking around the beta forums a lot of people seemed to make top-down stuff their first project... Which is a big leap from LBP1. For some people, to whom the technical aspects come naturally, this is not a major stretch. For others, it might be. Similarly, I'm seeing a general trend that people seem to assume that they have to drop all of the old tools and focus purely on the new tools. Again, if you do this, then you've immediately stepped well out of your depth, whoever you are. It's also completely unnecessary, all the old tools work fine and dropping them in one go, yet expecting to be able to achieve the same things without a long gap in time. Indeed, Probably one of the best things to do with the new tools is to set up something using the old logic and then translate that gradually into new logic. For reasonably simple things you can translate almost 1:1, it's only for slightly more crazy stuff that you're going to have to completely rethink. And if you can't work out how to achieve the alternative, then don't. Leave it as mechanical logic until such time as you are proficient enough to solve that problem. But remember that movers / rotators are not a replacement for connectors. To answer the question above about "should I be replacing my pistons with movers", the answer is maybe. If you're trying to do an object moving in 2 dimensions controlled by a player, then almost certainly yes. If you want an object to move back and forth in a linear fashion, with max and minimum limitations on it's motion, then almost certainly no. The movers are there to facilitate some of the more complex applications of connectors, essentially for when we used to use pistons even though they weren't suited to the job, because there was no other way to do it. This is typical of any paradigm shift within technology. Whist the end benefits are normally clear to be seen, in one way or another (in this case by those people producing awesome in the beta and the great stuff we've seen from MM), a large part of the problem is legacy. Which brings me on to my other point - that we're assuming a hell of a lot about people coming new to the game, in particular assuming that their POV is the same as experienced LBP1 creators, which is nonsense. Coming in with no legacy knowledge and no prior bias will give them a completely different experience to any one of us here, regardless of their aptitude and I don't think anyone of us can compare our experience in the beta with the experience of someone coming new to LBP2. In addition, those of you mocking the ADD-suffering kids that will never stand a chance really could do with a reality check. Most kids are orders of magnitude quicker when it comes to adapting than adults, they have a remarkable ability to focus, when presented with something they want to do, they take this stuff waaay less seriously than most of us and they have an awful lot of free time. And even if they do struggle to retain attention, that will simply give them another benefit over us - if something isn't working for them, then they'll likely ditch it and start something new, because it's more fun, rather than pounding their head against the wall because they have a vision of what they want to achieve. And in doing so, they'll experiment more and learn faster. They'll probably not create any masterpieces, but I think many of them are not gonna suffer from the issue of getting bored quickly, not with so many different toys to play with in one place. Anyways, where's my "comprehensive how to make things look pretty" tutorial, eh? There's no ****ing way I can find that out without having MM hold my hand through every step of the process *Largely by jerks like me

2010-11-16 11:49:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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But remember that movers / rotators are not a replacement for connectors. Heh. Over on the beta forum somebody was talking about building a top down tank and he wanted the turret's rotation to be cumulative with the rotation of the tank (so if the tank's chassis is turning left and the turret is turning left, it should go faster than if the turret was turning by itself), and he asked how to make the rotators do that. I spent a good while explaining how to add the two signals together and even give them different weights (and included a link to your blog of course). After I finished, I sat back all proud of myself for being so smart and then a little light went off in my head--attach the turret with a motor bolt and the rotation will be cumulative by nature. I had been so wrapped up in the new tools that I completely forgot the old ones and missed the simpler, more efficient/effective solution. The only reason to use a rotator would be if he wanted to use the joystick rotator, but he was using a local space camera so he wanted right=cw/left=ccw. [edit] Just so you know, I wasn't the only one who did that. There were three other guys before me that had weird outlandish suggestions too

2010-11-16 13:14:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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I don't think anything has changed here in honesty. LBP logic is, and always has been, far more an engineering thing than a programming thing, especially if your programming is relatively high level (I don't know if that is the case with you or not). Hell if your programming background is mostly high level then you might even be less well off than someone with a background in science or Maths, Yeah - very true (and yes, I code in very high level languages - especially these days... almost doesn't even resemble coding anymore). However, part of what I found exciting about LBP1 was the shift in paradigm from boolean to three dimensions, from bitwise to physics. To visibly see my logic processes tumble through in real time and space (sort of - I mean it is still a computer game, after all) was fantastic for me. I showed it off to some of my programming peers and they too were fascinated by this aspect of the game (though none had any desire to actually play - lol). And, at a guess, I'd say that this expectation, coupled with the confidence of having used the LBP editor for two years, and the promises of being able to create "whole games" is encouraging many people to run a hell of a long time before they can walk. I wholly agree. I still find it frustrating to have achieved so little over so much time recently, but I have learned much. And I will continue to learn. So many of the new tools make working in the editor easier and faster, and once I get past the major curve, I will start to run like the wind (ooo - that wears me out just thinking about it). For now I keep reminding myself to be content to walk. In addition, those of you mocking the ADD-suffering kids that will never stand a chance really could do with a reality check. Most kids are orders of magnitude quicker when it comes to adapting than adults, they have a remarkable ability to focus, when presented with something they want to do, they take this stuff waaay less seriously than most of us and they have an awful lot of free time. And even if they do struggle to retain attention, that will simply give them another benefit over us - if something isn't working for them, then they'll likely ditch it and start something new, because it's more fun, rather than pounding their head against the wall because they have a vision of what they want to achieve. And in doing so, they'll experiment more and learn faster. They'll probably not create any masterpieces, but I think many of them are not gonna suffer from the issue of getting bored quickly, not with so many different toys to play with in one place. Perhaps so... but I can tell you that my kids (one of which begged for this game Christmas-08 [and yes, my copy of LBP is not actually mine, but his] and the other whose initial major in college was architecture and who used to play The Sims for hours - not to actually care for sims, but to build their houses) have never found the patience to create in LBP1. Perhaps the new tools would make it easier for them, perhaps not. I tried to put myself in the shoes of a kid wanting to create the other day, and I had to wonder how they would deal with all these logic tools. But as you say... young minds are like sponges and adapt and learn so much quicker and easier than my worn out old brain can manage. Anyways, where's my "comprehensive how to make things look pretty" tutorial, eh? There's no ****ing way I can find that out without having MM hold my hand through every step of the process Wait... wait... I get it... that was sarcasm, right ?!? (See... not so feeble-minded after all).

2010-11-16 13:17:00 Author: v0rtex Posts: 1878

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If you want an object to move back and forth in a linear fashion, with max and minimum limitations on it's motion, then almost certainly yes no. Fixed that for ya. Thanks for typing all the stuff I was thinking but couldn't be bothered to write another long post about. And I want in on that step-by-step prettify tutorial!

2010-11-16 13:20:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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Also, Mm clearly stated that the LBP2 tutorials were unfinished, so it's a bit silly to complain that some of them were broken, and not every tool has a tutorial. They did indeed, and by unfinished I thought they might have meant that not "all" of them were complete. I didn't expect them to give us tutorials that are broken. To your point of complaining being silly, I think it's even sillier to give us tutorials that aren't finished and just plain broken. Again, I bring up the fact that this is a beta and our job is to test to find bugs. How are we expected to find bugs when we aren't given the right tools to do the job properly? If we don't have the turorials for the tools we are using and can't figure out how to use them well, then we can't be expected to help find bugs very efficiently. i found the tutorials i watched on youtube about all the logic really usefull and i have a much bigger understanding of it now then before because in lbp1 you got to build your AND and OR gates and what not, and it got me really confused sometimes with all the stuff and wires all over the place. But in lbp2 everything is much tidier and i find myself coming up with advanced ideas that i wouldnt even try in the first game just because of getting confused by the mess of logic everwhere. the tutorials for me are great and simple to understand and i think it will get more people to start messing with logic insted of being scared of it like i was at the start. Great point... the new logic is much tidier and keeps things looking clean. I love that aspect of it. The tutorials on Youtube are helpful for sure, but I haven't had much luck in finding ones that suit my needs and answer my personal questions. The only problem with relying on these types of tutorials is that not everyone has internet access, or has it all the time. I really hope the "in game" tutorials get a major polishing for those people in that situation. Well, some people might not be as intuitive as you, and the tutorial provides the initial nudge. If the tutorial told you exactly where to use the object, it would discourage experimentation. And without experimentation, LBP would be a very boring place. Remember too that the tutorials have to be digestible for 7 year olds. They'd more than likely die of boredom if someone sat down listing all the possible uses of AND gates. I don't think slapping a mover on a cows rump or any other object is exactly intuitive though. It's about as basic as you can get really. I'm all for giving a creative nudge, but that particular tutorial is just ridiculous. I'm not asking for the tutorials to tell us exactly where to use them, just give better examples of "how" to use them, and examples of how to use them in conjunction with other logic. As stated, I think people underestimate the minds of 7 year olds. I don't know... maybe it's just my brain not being able to understand logic and how to apply it. All I know is that I'm really frustrated right now in the beta. As RTM pointed out, we are under the impression that the new tools are better and would make it easier to create. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of that. It's disappointing because these are the same complaints that people had about the tutorials in LBP... and it seems that Mm didn't take notice of those complaints and do anything to do a better job on them this time around or help ease us into the new logic and tools. Again... it's more of the same, and that's frustrating. I keep seeing these amazing levels pop up every once in a while and I'm just flabberghasted at how the creators have been able to accomplish some of the things they are doing. I've done a few things myself where I've gone "WHOAH!! Now THAT'S COOOOL!!". Problem is, I don't understand why what I've created is doing what it's doing, so I have no way to understand how to tweak it. When I do, it just seems to stop working. EDIT: For example, I just played Rogar's ufo level and he's got his ship doing exactly what I'm trying to get mine to do (where movement is concerned). I can make things go up, down, left, right.... but the rest of the stuff like "easing in and out" of those movements and not having gravity affect my ship more when it's moving down than the other directions... pfft... I just can't make that stuff happen. In my mind, it should be really simple tweaks... but it's not. These are the kinds of things missing in the tutorials, and that were missing in the first game as well. It's all about tweak settings for me (as well as using logic in conjuntion with each other). I just don't think it's a big deal to ask for better tutorials this time around. If we want the community to start pumping out better quality stuff, see less shark/bomb/destroy city levels, and become a better place to actually "play" games.... well... I think we need better tutorials for people to learn from. I think RTM's latest post probably sums it all up the best. Great points made about all sides of the discussion. Great suggestion also, of sticking with the old logic and slowly trying to integrate the new stuff. It's frustrating to think all that goodness is sitting there doing nothing to help my levels and creations, but I guess that's the only way to go until I start figuring this stuff out... which should be some time in 2014 at this rate. As Shadowriver pointed out, you don't "need" logic for good levels.... but it sure does help.

2010-11-16 16:57:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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The challenge here is balancing ability and capability. How do you get the best of both worlds by ensuring that both create mode is easy enough for casual creators yet capable enough for hardcore creators? You can't, simply because the range of the player base includes both casual creators, hardcore creators, and everyone else in between. The best that MM can do is try to make equal the number of people experiencing difficulty creating and the number of people who are satisfied with the complexity of the editor. Otherwise you'll have a scenario where either a majority of people complain about the over-simplicity of the editor or a majority of people complain about how hard it is to use. You can't please everyone.

2010-11-16 18:17:00 Author: Unknown User

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hmm honestly i understand and learn most logic from LBP1 by Randomness like a lot of people, but for sure a lot of reading and even just by playing levels and try to guess how someone did something, some vids helped... but i don't like user made tutorial videos much, so i don't look many up... i hate hearing their annoying voices with sounds like them licking their lips a lot etc -_-' I Like professional videos like by MM best as they know Not to make their voices sound bad/make creepy sounds >.> so i read more about what i need more then anything Yeah there is that problem where MM said we'll be making awesome things like we never had before so we jump the gun and start trying things we are not ready for yet that we need to learn first, by painful long leasing tests yeah my whole life i have the problem of wanting to jump that old gun.... because i hate the act of making something honestly... i have so many ideas but little skill to make them happen and i hate to set there and learn as i want to be making it and for it to be done already, yeah i'm little lazy and hate to work for something to happen, funny as i'm a artist.... but i'm the same with my art sadly... i hate drawing really but i love having art made by me so yeah :/ hard work it self is not fun and you forget what you are working for if it takes you to long. just you get bored and work on something lass hard, unless its something that means a whole lot to you, i like not to stress about things yet i have Soooo much i want to make, yet its so painfuly hard... yeah i'll keep trying to get my Stuff done.... but there's so much :/ Anyways i say there should be different Levels of tutorials, tutorials for beginners: has all the basic ins and outs of everything in LBP. tutorials for the more skilled players: talks about more advance stuff in general. tutorials for the experts: Has all the basic detailed Stuff you could hope for how to make real nice levels etc. but people will learn one way or another. but a Little more help would be lovely :3 *mew PS: Rustbukkit We should play together sometime, i seen lot of your posts, you seen fun PSS: Wall of text Dx Whaaa!

2010-11-16 22:32:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261

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For example, I just played Rogar's ufo level and he's got his ship doing exactly what I'm trying to get mine to do (where movement is concerned). I can make things go up, down, left, right.... but the rest of the stuff like "easing in and out" of those movements and not having gravity affect my ship more when it's moving down than the other directions... pfft... I just can't make that stuff happen. In my mind, it should be really simple tweaks... but it's not. If everything was tweaks, each component would have a 100 of them. Mm's goal is to deliver "Lego blocks", components that have a simple function but combined can make very complex behavior. The first step in learning to make these components is to introduce the basic function of each tool, which is what the tutorials are doing. Having a tutorial of every combination of tools is undoable. They might do some examples of combinations in the final tutorials, or (more likely) they'll show you common combinations in the levels and give away contraptions to showcase them. Let's wait and see though, before we complain too much. For now, here's how I went about designing the UFO logic in my mind: Easing in and out, that means in stead of instant change, the speed changes more slowly, over time. For timed logic, the Timer springs to mind. The analog* output of a Timer is equal to the percentage of the Target Time that has passed. I want this output to increase when I press my stick, and decrease when I let go; this is exactly what the Forwards/Backwards Input Action does. IIRC the Advanced Mover has a third input that can be set to Speed Scale, so the output of the Timer should go there. Now for the Timer's input. I want this logic to work if I press either up/down or left/right, so I need to combine these two controlinator outputs with an OR Gate. The output of the OR Gate will drive the Timer. I did all this off the top of my head, and it's been a while since I published the UFO, so uhm... hopefully I got it right. Anyway, if this is still unclear, or if you run into hocus pocus logic discussions on the forum, point out the steps you don't follow, and I'll be happy to try and explain it better. * I'll agree on this: they'll really really really need to explain the dual nature of signals (analog + digital) really really well. Rtm's blog is great, but this functionality is so essential it needs to be explained in-game.

2010-11-16 23:12:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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I don't think slapping a mover on a cows rump or any other object is exactly intuitive though. It's about as basic as you can get really. I'm all for giving a creative nudge, but that particular tutorial is just ridiculous. I'm not asking for the tutorials to tell us exactly where to use them, just give better examples of "how" to use them, and examples of how to use them in conjunction with other logic. As stated, I think people underestimate the minds of 7 year olds. I don't know... maybe it's just my brain not being able to understand logic and how to apply it. All I know is that I'm really frustrated right now in the beta. As RTM pointed out, we are under the impression that the new tools are better and would make it easier to create. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of that. It's disappointing because these are the same complaints that people had about the tutorials in LBP... and it seems that Mm didn't take notice of those complaints and do anything to do a better job on them this time around or help ease us into the new logic and tools. Again... it's more of the same, and that's frustrating. I keep seeing these amazing levels pop up every once in a while and I'm just flabberghasted at how the creators have been able to accomplish some of the things they are doing. I've done a few things myself where I've gone "WHOAH!! Now THAT'S COOOOL!!". Problem is, I don't understand why what I've created is doing what it's doing, so I have no way to understand how to tweak it. When I do, it just seems to stop working. EDIT: For example, I just played Rogar's ufo level and he's got his ship doing exactly what I'm trying to get mine to do (where movement is concerned). I can make things go up, down, left, right.... but the rest of the stuff like "easing in and out" of those movements and not having gravity affect my ship more when it's moving down than the other directions... pfft... I just can't make that stuff happen. In my mind, it should be really simple tweaks... but it's not. These are the kinds of things missing in the tutorials, and that were missing in the first game as well. It's all about tweak settings for me (as well as using logic in conjuntion with each other). I just don't think it's a big deal to ask for better tutorials this time around. If we want the community to start pumping out better quality stuff, see less shark/bomb/destroy city levels, and become a better place to actually "play" games.... well... I think we need better tutorials for people to learn from. I think RTM's latest post probably sums it all up the best. Great points made about all sides of the discussion. Great suggestion also, of sticking with the old logic and slowly trying to integrate the new stuff. It's frustrating to think all that goodness is sitting there doing nothing to help my levels and creations, but I guess that's the only way to go until I start figuring this stuff out... which should be some time in 2014 at this rate. As Shadowriver pointed out, you don't "need" logic for good levels.... but it sure does help. This is exactly what I have been saying about the current state of the tutorials. Personally I don't have any problem. In fact I'm capable of designing complex systems despite not having the beta (or even my PS3) myself. But I _study_ logic (well, mathematics). I don't expect everyone, especially young children (a key demographic of the game) to be able to pick up this stuff naturally. In fact most people's brains work differently to mine and they just won't be able to work out some stuff. Giving people a "tutorial" on how to slap a mover on an object and see what it does is useless. Everyone saying things like "it takes effort to make a good level" or "you're going to have to put a lot of time in anyway" are missing the point. The tutorials are there to give everyone a boost. They should explain how to make stuff - stuff that can help you actually build a level. The way that things are used in their own levels. If you're shown how to make a variety of things, most people can use that knowledge to make things that are similar. If you are shown how to use a variety of tools in an abstract way, most people are not capable of thinking how to use them in a complex way to make something great.

2010-11-17 00:39:00 Author: thor Posts: 388

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you guys panic too much, imo tutorials are good, saying what element do what is useful. I don't see a point to pushing newbies to level making without knowing what elements do, really, and i don't think eaither that pushing them to making fps and top-down racers is good idea, there lot of complex problems to be solve in them, that will more annoy there head then inspire Imo community tuts will fill gap that is missing Besides as Alex said somewhere, YouTube slogan is to broadcast yourself, even so only few doing that and YouTube is still popular site. In other words they can't teach people creativity and it's not there goal to make people create, but giving tools EDIT: You can hear it here and i recomend to watch it: http://www.bafta.org/access-all-areas/videos/media-molecule,1383,BA.html

2010-11-17 04:04:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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I don't see a point to pushing newbies to level making without knowing what elements do Perhaps people who never used logic in the first game will just be like "wth is this?" and never use it in the new one, the categorise it into simple and advanced logic, but i think it should be the other way around. all the logic gates should be in advanced logic, and logic which can very easily (i mean VERY) be translated from lbp1 eg a timer= a wood circle on a motor bolt with mag key etc in simple logic, otherwise how many people are going to look at an XOR or a NOT gate and think "well if thats simple i can forget the advanced stuff" simply swapping round the names of the categories is a gross simplification of what i mean - more like thinking harder about which elements fit into which categories im quite tired so excuse me if i dont make any sense

2010-11-17 11:09:00 Author: Skalio- Posts: 920

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huh? logic gates are simplest logic and they are easy to understand, and mm tutorials nicely explain them

2010-11-17 11:24:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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i know and i agree personally , im just saying that for people who dont have any idea how to use the gates other than to light up lights or float cows around like in the tutorials it might be easier to learn how to use timers as delay switches, or batteries as perma before learning about controlling multiple inputs through logic networks

2010-11-17 11:53:00 Author: Skalio- Posts: 920

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Logic gate tutorial give you idea that for example AND you need to turn all switches to trigger event and so on, logic gates don't need to be used in complex circuitry and imo people will find more uses to logic gates then timers in platforming

2010-11-17 12:35:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Is anyone actually reading what's here, or just venting randomly? I'm considering aggregating all of the suggestions for how the tutorial system should be from this thread, just to highlight how disparate and conflicting all of the viewpoints are. It's honestly quite bizarre that many of you seem convinced that it's a simple task to cater for the vast range of demographics that make up the audience for this game, when even a the tiny subset represented here can't even come close to agreeing....

2010-11-17 13:24:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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you guys panic too much, imo tutorials are good, saying what element do what is useful. I don't see a point to pushing newbies to level making without knowing what elements do, really, and i don't think eaither that pushing them to making fps and top-down racers is good idea, there lot of complex problems to be solve in them, that will more annoy there head then inspire Imo community tuts will fill gap that is missing Besides as Alex said somewhere, YouTube slogan is to broadcast yourself, even so only few doing that and YouTube is still popular site. In other words they can't teach people creativity and it's not there goal to make people create, but giving tools EDIT: You can hear it here and i recomend to watch it: http://www.bafta.org/access-all-areas/videos/media-molecule,1383,BA.html But youtube is a completely different thing. Youtube is free to use for a start, so you are always going to have more customers than suppliers. Have a look at the number of lurkers on this forum who never posted compared to the number who post regularly. The difference with LBP2 is that many people will buy the game in order to create, and creating is hard. Posting on a forum is not hard. Uploading a youtube video is not hard. There is plenty of user-friendly video editing software available. If someone bought video-editing software they would expect to be able to edit videos to a reasonable standard! The best software would enable ANYONE to cut together a decent video. Of course to make the best video you need the best ideas, the best speaking voice, perhaps the best artistic talent and best editing skills. But the baseline level is to be able to create something at least "decent." I don't see a point to pushing newbies to level making without knowing what elements do, really, and i don't think eaither that pushing them to making fps and top-down racers is good idea, there lot of complex problems to be solve in them, that will more annoy there head then inspire This is the most ridiculous quote of the thread and sums up perfectly why I disagree with you. You honestly think that people that aren't capable of "getting it" from the tutorials and mucking around are totally worthless as creators? Do they not have some potential to make great things? This is exactly like saying, "We don't need to teach everyone to read and write in this country, after all, those that don't pick it up straight away will never be Shakespeare, they'll probably get confused and annoyed rather than inspired." In LBP2 almost everyone (who wants to) should have some basic level of "literacy" or creating skill. The tutorials fail to give this to everyone - even some who were skilled in LBP1. Is anyone actually reading what's here, or just venting randomly? I'm considering aggregating all of the suggestions for how the tutorial system should be from this thread, just to highlight how disparate and conflicting all of the viewpoints are. It's honestly quite bizarre that many of you seem convinced that it's a simple task to cater for the vast range of demographics that make up the audience for this game, when even a the tiny subset represented here can't even come close to agreeing.... No as far as I can see, there are those that are proposing improved tutorials, and those who think what we have is "good enough" and "noobs shouldn't create" and "I can do it just fine, screw those people who bought the game hoping to create and couldn't." I am all for different suggestions on how to improve the tutorials (and I have given a couple of other suggestions myself to make LBP2 more user-friendly) but I just can't agree with those who want to keep creating an elitist thing. It reminds me of the right-wing extremists who would say, "No, no, we don't need to help these guys who are in abject poverty. If they all put in a lot of hard work a couple of them might become rich one day."

2010-11-17 16:55:00 Author: thor Posts: 388

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Yeah, you kinda completely missed the point there. Ignoring those that you consider elitist, the people stating their views on why the tutorials suck and suggesting ways in which they could be improved simply don't agree with each other. For most suggestions posted someone else has posted the complete opposite. You highlight the deficiencies in the system by pointing out that the current tutorials don't provide all creators with adequate understanding. I say that any alternative you propose will similarly not provide everyone with what they need to understand the tools.

2010-11-17 17:15:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Peoples that make "HARDEST LEVEL EVER, DESTROY LONDON WITH UFO AND GUNS, 35 JUMPS, YOU CAN BEAT THIS?" are peoples that who are not interested in learning to create levels, and only buy LBP to create an EMO Sackboy and to earn platinum trophy. I think in LBP2 will have fewer EMOS and fewer levels idiots like these because it's much more harder to platinum.

2010-11-17 17:45:00 Author: Cauan-XV Posts: 491

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Yay, rant time! I love rant offs. Now lets see here, first off to the "Broken Beta Tutorials" Matter. Doo keep in mind, it is the BETA, thus its still an UNFINISHED game, meaning not done, you want the full game tutorials, but what if they haven't been done yet? What if those are done later on, and they actually just made those we got in a rush, just so we aren't completly clueless? Meaning, it may not be that they don't wanna, but thy can't because they don't exist yet. Even if they do have them, remember we don't have all features in the game either, we're still missing a few. Keep in mind as well as this is the BETA, just experimenting with the tools is optimal, think about it, the more we blindly experiment, the more likely we find bugs, am I right? If we're told, "You canonly do this and that, with this tool." wouldn't we limit ourselves more to those functions than to try to think for beyond possibilities unless on rare situations? This bring me to the other matter at hand, the ""All tutorials suck, and should teach you exactly all possibilities of every single little thing every tool has to offer." First off, may I remind you 1's Tutorials take forever as it is? (first timers to LBP would need to go through both when buying LBP2.) Now, I know its fun listening to Stephen Fry talk about those little tuorials, but would you really want to go on and on and on with logic explanations with joke here and there for over an hour? (And thar's just one tutorial...) Rememer, you may think it'd be good to do so, but you do realize all that can be done with logic, right? It'd take hours/ days to completly and fully explain all in all, everything that all can do... If they were to still put more, but just the more basic stuff, more payers would just constric themselves to just those specific uses not thinking it has any more uses. I'm not saying ALL will, bt I'm sure a good share of players will. Remember tutorials are for the very most basic functions, to make create mode easier to understand, and at least manageable to the beginners, meaning those who are new to LBP, not veterans, just to tell you what tool's for what. Now if you still want a "Full blown tutorial." Why don't you try making one explaining ALL possible things that and/ or/ Xor/ not gates can do, while making it fun/ entertaining, and short enough so everyone will like them? See if that's so easy. Remember that They're trying to make good quick, fun ways to explain the basics to attract more people, not to make full blown hour-long single tutorial that will bore the crap out of everyone except who's completly interested in logic. There ARE players who are just interested in visuals mainly and just need a small grasp on what each tool, you know? So do keep in mind their tutorials are supposed to be good and easy to understand to ALL players. Not to mention ther's not an "specific number" of uses for each gate. So, just as there are tons of things one can use it for, there's another ton of things others won't care for as they're not interested in using it those ways. What, do you think Mm's just gonna make tutorials to make the logic you specifically need for the even more specific random sceario everyone thinks of? Of course not! Why? Mm doesn't know what you're gonna build, and that's the beauty of it, because they know you'll be able to surpass their expectations and use it ]IN WAYS THEY NEVER IMAGINED! I don't think they can explain to you how to do things they never imagined possible, now can they? (Yay, succesful rant, for me at least! Thx, really needed that! )

2010-11-17 18:32:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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Im not saying that noob should not create, i'm saying there no point to push it in to deep water that it will only confuse more else he won't create anything and if they can't create (for there own choose) thats not bad thing, they can enjoy the game anyway, if LBP is all about creating it would be fail as game, since someone need to play your creations. YouTube do the same, not everyone has skill to make good quality and popular videos on YouTube that have more then regular 10,000 views (you are lucky enough to generate new meme), video making is an art same making level in LBP and same as YouTube, in LBP we got people who create good content, not known creators that have lower plays, people who make crap, people who just play the other people creation and usually got there favorite creators (just look on Crazyshadow for example) and people who play regialy but don't have idea what happens in community but enjoy the game anyway (i know few), this is how LBP1 worked and working and so far it's doing good and LBP2 most like ly do the same. The difference with LBP2 is that many people will buy the game in order to create, and creating is hard I got some friends on GameSpot that they are only normal gamers playing everything, they are hyped for LBP2 just by seeing other people creations and can't wait to check them out, they don't think about creating at all and when i show them my Tetris they said im crazy. In fact there far more people being annoyed by floaty jump controls then fact that it's hard to create. So looks like you are wrong. Don't forget LBP is game, not just a editor that you need to learn to use it btw Saying that tutorials showing what elements do what are useless to teach people create is like saying that learning people letters and words is useless to teach people reading and writing. For me, that is complete nonsence for me

2010-11-17 19:24:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Ok so I didn't articulate what I had to say in the best possible way in the beginning of the thread. People (At least in my experience) don't just make levels on Little Big Planet for the hearts. They make them because they want to make games. I have some great idea's for levels. If I could get some of my levels into the community they may be rather popular. But I can't make anything in Little Big Planet 1 and i'm worried Little Big Planet 2 will be the same. From all the posts I feel that people definitely feel strongly about it one way or another. Everyone is imaginative. If everyone can make awesome levels than you'll never be stuck for something to play. Little Big Planet 2 will become timeless. It would be best for everyone if Little Big Planet was easier. The reason I posted this and didn't keep it to myself was because there may be a solution. Many heads are better than one. I'm not saying: Talented creators: Make teach everyone to create awesome levels NOW! But i'm guessing that theres a solution. The tutorials are excellent but they teach you the tools. There's something else involved with creating a level. More than ideas. More than plans. What is it? I have no idea. But I lack it and so do the creators of lots of the hated levels (Bomb survivals ECT) Not gonna double post.

2010-11-17 19:28:00 Author: wev99 Posts: 67

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I guess I'm just the type of a creator that shouldn't post here... Logix is easy for me. If this is true (on), then do this... if these and these are on, then toggle this, else toggle this... if time<5 and this is on, then do this... They all just tend to snap together after bashing my head on a imaginary wall for 15 mins. Mm gave us the simplest logix tools, distilled to the simplest form possible, and explained more or less thoroughly what asplodes if they are triggered. I think they did rather well in it. BUT, simple logix only do so far, and that's when the problems come. Networking all those simple logics to something far from simple. For example, if input 1 OR 2 is active AND input 3 OR 4 is active, then SLOWLY INCREASE SPEED of ANIMATED MATERIAL. For me that seems very clear and easy; wire 1 and 2 into an OR gate, wire 3 and 4 into an OR gate, then wire these OR gates into an AND gate, then wire the AND gate into a TIMER, then wire the TIMER into your ANIMATED MATERIAL, then tweak the TIMER to act "Start Count Up", then tweak the ANIMATED MATERIAL's input to be "Speed". Yet that is something Mm can't or even won't give us. There are usually so many different ways to achieve different things, and Mm doesn't want to box our thoughts with clear instructions such as "always use a Toggle Gate when you want something to be set and resetted when a button is pressed", for then you might not experiment with things and notice that the Selector with 2 inputs is usually the best choice in terms of variety*. And there's no shortcuts for it; as there isn't for good gameplays or pretty levels, only practice And willing friends/communities to guide your first steps in the logix land *warning: opinions I do hope the tl;dr wall above makes sense

2010-11-17 20:21:00 Author: Unknown User

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No as far as I can see, there are those that are proposing improved tutorials, and those who think what we have is "good enough" and "noobs shouldn't create" and "I can do it just fine, screw those people who bought the game hoping to create and couldn't." That's nice, throwing all opposing views into the elitist camp. You missed "tutorials can't teach this, you need practice", "MM doesn't have the resources to explain everything and every combination", and my personal favorite, "let's not complain too much until we know what's in the final product".

2010-11-17 21:21:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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Well, this is certainly one of the best discussions I've seen on the forum in a long time. Kudos to EVERYONE involved for keeping this civil while trying to get their many views and opinions across to the others involved. Lot's of great points being brought up here, especially in the last few pages. I'm not going to quote them all because there's just too many, but I have a few things to respond and clarify my own thoughts and words on the topic. I for one, certainly don't want (or even expect) for Mm to give us full blown in-depth tutorials on all the logic and new tools. I dont' think anyone here arguing from a similar standpoint as mine does either. I think we are just asking that the tutorials give us a little more than what they have already. I completely understand that they want to give us the basics so we can tool around and figure things out that they never thought we might come up with. The fact remains though, that logic in NOT an intuitive science or process. The notion that you can just expect everyone to be able to play with it and start understanding how it works and what will work in conjunction with other logic is simply ludacrous. Give these "real life" logic gates and circuit boards to anyone who's never used them before and then try and tell me that in time they will start to figure it out on their own. It simply won't happen... mainly because they (like in the game) will become so frustrated that their efforts yield no results, or that they make something happen but haven't been taught WHY and can't understand what they just did, or how to reproduce the same thing a week later, that they will just give up after hours and hours of bashing thier heads against their fist and throw in the towel as some of us feel on the brink of doing. In my view, the tutorials are just too basic and vague. I think they could have done a better job on explaining what the logic is doing a bit more, instead of just saying connect here/make light go on. I think they could show how some basic logic works together with other logic on the circuit board and why or why it might not with others. Just a few examples. I don't think most people would find it hard to sit through, and hey... at least they will have made an effort for the many creators out there who ARE interested in learning more. To have the attitude of, "If we make it and no one watches then what's the point" isn't very positive or forward thinking. We all understand very well that this is only the beta and that the finished product may in fact have better and more in-depth tutorials.... and we've even acknowledged that many times throughout the thread. As I've stated, this is probably just wishful thinking though.... especially given what we know was sorely lacking in the first games' tutorials and what we've seen so far in the new ones. I'm hopeful, but not confident that the finished version will have much better explanations than what we already have, especially given that Mm has stated (if memory serves) that Steven has already finished the voice records for the game. To the point of not being able to provide everyone with what they want out of the tutorials, I disagree. I think that by adding more to the tutorials gives those with the desire to learn more the option to sit their butts down and go through all the tutorials as many times as it takes for it to sink in. Those that already understand, are left brain dominant, or simply could care less can simply turn them off and not watch at all if they aren't going to be helpful for them. It's no different than some of the materials, objects, stickers, and deco's in the game really. There's a TON of stuff we've been given that I haven't had any desire to use and likely never will, but I don't think it shouldn't have been added because I see other players getting plenty of use and value out of it. It would be unfair to just say, well those are useless items so why bother adding them to the games creative palette at all? The way I see things, the more you have at your fingertips to use the better. We need to understand that the tutorials themselves are "tools" and should function as such. Right now, I feel like I've been given a hammer with one claw broken off and a bag of screws. If I could just get a hammer with both claws in tact, a bag of nails, and a screwdriver to go with those screws... I could probably build some decent artwork and hang it on a wall for people to really appreciate it. To those of you that already understand this stuff, try to step back and look at it from our perspective. Think back to something you wanted to know about in life at some point, but simply didn't have the help or guidance you so desperately wanted and needed. With regards to the game... this is the same thing for us. Try to understand that we are right brain oriented people and that we can't help that. This isn't about a bunch of us "complaining or whining" that Mm didn't give us what we want like a bunch of 6 year olds. This is a legitimate and upsetting point of contention for us with the new logic and lack of decent tutorials. This... is our cry for help!

2010-11-17 21:26:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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Compare it with a class in mathematics. For some math is easy, others have to practice a lot to get it, and then there's the people that think it's a total nightmare. Do you want to blame this on the publisher of the math book? No, the math book provides the basics, the homework provides the pratice, and the teacher helps out those that are left behind. Having said that, I'm not against them throwing in a few more tutorials on combining logic per se. But then everyone will complain that it's not the combination they are interested in. And you're overlooking those that were argueing from a similar standpoint as yours that want a tutorial on how to do a top-down game, or a FPS. That's certainly not just a little more. As for your cry for help... we're listening, right here on the beta forum.

2010-11-17 21:45:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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Yeah, you kinda completely missed the point there. Ignoring those that you consider elitist, the people stating their views on why the tutorials suck and suggesting ways in which they could be improved simply don't agree with each other. For most suggestions posted someone else has posted the complete opposite. You highlight the deficiencies in the system by pointing out that the current tutorials don't provide all creators with adequate understanding. I say that any alternative you propose will similarly not provide everyone with what they need to understand the tools. O.K. before I post let me make it clear that I did NOT read all the posts in this thread.Some of the posts are half a page long I just don't have the time or energy. What I do want to say however is that the tutorials at least to myself seem fine because not only are they always available for every tool when you need them, but also you have to preform a task with the tool in order to get past the tutorial. How can that be any simpler?

2010-11-17 21:49:00 Author: KILLA_TODDZILLA Posts: 653

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Compare it with a class in mathematics. For some math is easy, others have to practice a lot to get it, and then there's the people that think it's a total nightmare. Do you want to blame this on the publisher of the math book? No, the math book provides the basics, the homework provides the pratice, and the teacher helps out those that are left behind. I guess I just thought the book would be a little thicker. Having said that, I'm not against them throwing in a few more tutorials on combining logic per se. But then everyone will complain that it's not the combination they are interested in. And you're overlooking those that were argueing from a similar standpoint as yours that want a tutorial on how to do a top-down game, or a FPS. That's certainly not just a little more. Glad to see you aren't opposed to the idea of showing just a few more things and variations on logic. Good point made about people complaining that it's not the right combination of things too... those people will likely not be satisfied with anything though. To be honest, I completely forgot about people wanting specific tutorials on top-downs etc, and wasn't even factoring them into any of the conversation thus far. That's just silly, and completely unrealistic as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I'd like a little more from Mm... but I know what's realistic and what's not. These ideas and hopes.... certainly NOT. As for your cry for help... we're listening, right here on the beta forum. Thanks! I'm going to have to start using the help section a lot more in the future I'm afraid. The Canadian in me just doesn't like to bother people with all sorts of questions. I know the chances are slim that Mm will even see this thread, and I've never felt like bringing it up on the beta forums. I figured those forums were mostly for reporting bugs and I don't go to them unless I'm trying to find something that's already been reported. It would be nice though, if I knew that Mm were actually aware that this seems like it's frustrating quite a few other people and not just me. EDITED for my OOPS factor.

2010-11-17 22:24:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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Haha maybe MM should just make non beginner tutorials as DLC so it be only something long time players have to worry about getting and no im not talking about tutorials how to make level types like a top down whatever, just more detailed tutorials that say more. but really i think everyone will do fine... im not sure how much tutorials are needed or not, as i find testing things my self is best, anything else is just good for idea starters, surely it'll take a lot a long time for more normal people to learn the game then they'd would hope but yeah they'll pull through somehow... most likely *mew

2010-11-17 22:53:00 Author: Lord-Dreamerz Posts: 4261

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When it comes down to it, I think these are the main reasons why the tutorials are so basic. They have to hold the highly temperamental attention span of children as young as 7. Mm are encouraging (maybe even banking on) the community to experiment/work together, as we did for LBP1, to discover the ins and outs of the game. Any over-detailed information on how to build a level can result in uniformity, and people are less encouraged to diversify. The tutorials are supposed to be simple! Now, instead of telling the community how diverse LBP2 is, and how to make all these diverse things, Mm shows you with Story Mode. When you see a cool mechanic you'll ask yourself "How did they do that?", and a little imagination, combined with the albeit limited tutorials (and maybe examining a story object or two), could give you the nudge to go make something amazing yourself. For those finding it hard to get to grips with elemental logic, I'm thinking of putting together a tutorial (not another one, you groan, but listen ) which discusses the steps required to turn that awesome piece of functionality in your head into working logic. It's all OK everyone telling you how each gate works, but learning how to make a working process out of them is the hard part. It's just like riding a bike - once learnt, never forgotten. So expect something a little different ... when I get round to it.

2010-11-17 23:30:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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For those finding it hard to get to grips with elemental logic, I'm thinking of putting together a tutorial (not another one, you groan, but listen ) which discusses the steps required to turn that awesome piece of functionality in your head into working logic. It's all OK everyone telling you how each gate works, but learning how to make a working process out of them is the hard part. It's just like riding a bike - once learnt, never forgotten. So expect something a little different ... when I get round to it. This ! ^ As for your tutorial... will this be a video tutorial... or one here on the forums with puctures and wordy things? I hate to sound impatient... but.... GIDDYUP!! Times a wastin'! C'mon c'mon... go go go go !!!

2010-11-18 00:02:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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Yeah, it's not that people don't like the MM objects, it's just that they should use them to decorate the level. Changing the color, material, or use of the object in silly, awesome, or crafty ways. Most people frown upon using them without anything else in the level. Would you like to play a level filled with MM items? I'd actually like to see the objects used in silly ways. Like the Ocarina item could be repainted as an acorn, or the water wheel used as logic to make ghosts spin around through the air without the player seeing the water wheel, just the ghosts. As for creating "Awesome Levels", it's all just practice, just like guitar's and piano's take time. You just have to make what you feel like making, even if it takes awhile. And don't worry about the response it gives, the Cool Pages are brutal on anything that isn't a Survival or scam anyway. If people like it, then that's great! If it doesn't get a good response, try making something new! It's all about just building levels you enjoy making. Take my two levels "Raining Cat's and Dogs Survival" and "Inquisitive Sack" for instance, Raining Cats and Dogs took me and my friend 15 minutes to make, and I made it almost 2 years ago. It made 70k plays in 3 months because it was a survival. (Not that I knew it would have made a difference back then, I made that for fun since the bomb thing was popular.) On the other hand, Inquisitive Sack was a remake of a flash game that me and my friend found. I had a blast making it, me and my friend kept looking up all the details, logic and everything work as good as that game. It only got 900 plays in 4 months, but I just liked making everything work correctly, and this level made me want to work on 6 different projects now! (All original ideas, I think!) So just try and be creative, MM Object's in your levels are not!

2010-11-18 01:29:00 Author: Tmjtk Posts: 258

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... will this be a video tutorial... or one here on the forums with puctures and wordy things? I'd love to start making video tutorials but I haven't got a capture card, so it'll be a good old forum thread thing with pictures and my bad jokes.

2010-11-18 07:36:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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I also doing vidoe tutorials, but my DV tape camera is pain to transfer over video to PC, so i will need to get a card too to make videos more frequently

2010-11-18 13:05:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Im not saying that noob should not create, i'm saying there no point to push it in to deep water that it will only confuse more else he won't create anything and if they can't create (for there own choose) thats not bad thing, they can enjoy the game anyway, if LBP is all about creating it would be fail as game, since someone need to play your creations. YouTube do the same, not everyone has skill to make good quality and popular videos on YouTube that have more then regular 10,000 views (you are lucky enough to generate new meme), video making is an art same making level in LBP and same as YouTube, in LBP we got people who create good content, not known creators that have lower plays, people who make crap, people who just play the other people creation and usually got there favorite creators (just look on Crazyshadow for example) and people who play regialy but don't have idea what happens in community but enjoy the game anyway (i know few), this is how LBP1 worked and working and so far it's doing good and LBP2 most like ly do the same. I got some friends on GameSpot that they are only normal gamers playing everything, they are hyped for LBP2 just by seeing other people creations and can't wait to check them out, they don't think about creating at all and when i show them my Tetris they said im crazy. In fact there far more people being annoyed by floaty jump controls then fact that it's hard to create. So looks like you are wrong. Don't forget LBP is game, not just a editor that you need to learn to use it btw Saying that tutorials showing what elements do what are useless to teach people create is like saying that learning people letters and words is useless to teach people reading and writing. For me, that is complete nonsence for me Yeah but there are people in the LBP community (even in this thread) who do want to create but can't. I think you're unfairly generalising. I realise there are people who don't care about creating - but most people will at least want to give it a try. My point was that "throwing them in at the deep end" gives them something to work from - they know how to build some reasonably complex things and most people can modify the process to make them look different or function slightly differently. But really I would like to be able to teach people to swim, rather than just giving them 10 minutes in the paddling pool. To extend the analogy further, create mode at the moment is the "deep end" and what I'm proposing is a more gradual introduction.

2010-11-18 14:20:00 Author: thor Posts: 388

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Community will fill the gap anyway, as it always did. Look on Minecraft for example, it don't have any kind of gameplay tutorial still it's very popular game, Starcraft 2 don't have any kind of official support for editor (they only open up a wiki), still people making stuff and think that LBP is a crap compare to this. Adobe products don't have any much complex tutorials too, this is why community tutorials is so popular. So i think this can be solve this way. And as i said current tutorials are not bad for begining, you would eventually need to teach them what is in this tutorials anyway

2010-11-18 15:47:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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There's an LBP "BEEP-CLASSIFIED-INFORMATION-THAT-I-ACCIDENTALLY-MADE-PUBLIC-BEEP"

2010-11-18 16:06:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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i used to draw, play with erector sets, lincoln logs, legos, build models etc as a little kid... it was fun and never enticed me to go vandalize my neighborhood out of frustration. i honestly don't know how anyone can teach critical thought and creativity... it's probably something that happens in the womb, through parenting, and formative education. not something MM can be expected to nurture. this thread is a long, interesting read.

2010-11-18 16:48:00 Author: Unknown User

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I suppose if I had a capture card, I guess I would make some videos of the wonderful world of logix through my own creations... yet no. Maybe I'll try to cook up some levels... maybe. Who wants to learn how to replicate the gyro wheelchair that Mm used in Lift Off with added left/rightyness and arrows that set the gravity to a set direction? *waits patiently*

2010-11-20 09:38:00 Author: Unknown User

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I suppose if I had a capture card, I guess I would make some videos of the wonderful world of logix through my own creations... yet no. Maybe I'll try to cook up some levels... maybe. Who wants to learn how to replicate the gyro wheelchair that Mm used in Lift Off with added left/rightyness and arrows that set the gravity to a set direction? *waits patiently* Don't do it... it's a trap!! I've seen this logic and it will make your head !!asplode!! Seriously though, it's a really cool little gizmo he's made. I'd take him up on this if your interested in learning just how amazing back-engineering can be when you don't even have the item available to back-engineer from. Coasterfreak are smart like spayship!!

2010-11-20 10:26:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

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"cool little gizmo" It took so many days and headsplodes to make work... and currently it wants to explode at contact to anything. Oh well. *waits patiently*

2010-11-20 10:33:00 Author: Unknown User

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I've always thought that some publisher like Prima (http://www.primagames.com/guides/?keyword=&platform=PS3) would/could/should make a game guide (http://www.primagames.com/catalog/promo_image/9780307469809_1641.pdf) that would cover the story mode like any other guide, but then would go into detail about all the tweak options for every tool and object. They might even delve into practical application examples, as some have suggested in this thread. But it always amazed me from the beginnings of LBP1... not that the game itself didn't have an in-depth help/tutorial function for all of this, but that there was nothing available on the market. One of my first thoughts when I started to learn the complexities of the editor was, "I should just go out and buy me a good guide on this." Alas, there is no such tome.

2010-11-20 13:55:00 Author: v0rtex Posts: 1878

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Alas, there is no such tome. I'd love to get paid to make such a thing. Who wants to give me all their monies?

2010-11-20 14:18:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Criminals and thieves always start out poor because they come from a background where they need money. If you have the ability to make an awesome level than your not the one who's going to be copying. It doesn't help anything saying: It's your fault. There not going to say: Ok it's my fault....... Now I'm going to stop. Playing community levels is fun but people also complain about how they don't RATE levels properly and how they can't tell the difference from something that took 10 seconds to make and something that took a year. Maybe that's because they've never went on to create mode. I'm just saying that even if Little Big Planet 2 is exactly the same as Little Big Planet 2 than people should stop complaining about the noobs.

2010-11-20 14:23:00 Author: wev99 Posts: 67

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But it always amazed me from the beginnings of LBP1... not that the game itself didn't have an in-depth help/tutorial function for all of this, but that there was nothing available on the market. Problem is, any book that gave anyone too specific advice on the inner workings of create mode would very quickly go out of date, because the community moves so quickly. And like many people have already said, the tools are self-explanatory, but using them well/together is the difficult part. Maybe an interactive, online, constantly updated "thing" will do the trick ...

2010-11-20 15:26:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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Maybe an interactive, online, constantly updated "thing" will do the trick ... Hmmm... you may be on to something here... Something like some sort of on-line forum!! Brilliant!

2010-11-20 23:05:00 Author: v0rtex Posts: 1878

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Well, that too I wasn't hinting at that though, I was hinting at something else, which apparently is "top secret". I'm actually quite looking forward to taking part (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=35521-LBPC-Wiki). To the rest of you, read Shadowriver's article (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=35151-How-to-make-your-own-addtion-calculator-useing-BCD-calculator-basics-of-numeral-logic) about making a BCD calculator in LBP. Apart from being a ridiculously good read, the part where he explains how a full adder works is exactly the kind of mentality you need to adopt when solving any logic problem - and one I hope to explain half as well as him if I ever do a tutorial on LBP2 logic.

2010-11-20 23:43:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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I think it was actually fun just to dive in and faff with all the tricks and tweaks of the tools and smashing them together to see something asplode. Frustration is a part of my creation routine: one of the driving forces to continue making my random creations. Oh, the great feeling when i finally get something to work fluidly after a few days of headstorming and -banging on the wall. Then i realise that the challenge to make it was the fun part, lose interest and wander on to make some more random bits of awesome. *waits patiently for applicants*

2010-11-22 06:37:00 Author: Unknown User

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Problem is, any book that gave anyone too specific advice on the inner workings of create mode would very quickly go out of date, because the community moves so quickly. Not really. A book of this nature would not need to be "this is the absolute best way to achieve something", merely an overview of the deeper aspects of the tweak settings (the ones that aren't covered by the tutorials), little tips and tricks, supplemented by small examples, with a number of larger, step-by-step worked examples. I don't think any of that would have any relevance to how fast the community moves on, it's simply filling in the gaps of knowledge in the tweak settings and encouraging the right kind of approach to system development processes. Though arguably the latter is something that can't be exactly taught - in the same manner that various artistic skills cannot be taught - sure you can explain it to people, show them the techniques and give examples, but whether that sticks and they can apply it beyond the specific examples given to them is another matter.

2010-11-22 13:28:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I think that the reason people copy other level’s and make bomb survivals and generally behave anti social is not because there trying to be malicious or because there lazy. I sort of agree, it's not lazyness or anything like that. From what I see with regards to little kids it's general impatience and egocentricity that is the problem. Impatience means they don't want to wait to be a good creator, they want the recognition now. They do the whole 'first level' thing (that we've all done), but they don't improve past that point because they want to get levels done quickly and published. It's a pitfall that older creators (teenagers and up really) start to learn to avoid after one or two attempts at making a proper level. And lets face it, little kids have massive egos It's a part of growing up, at around age 12-14 we start to appreciate other people more, but before then we know are the best around and everyone should agree with us. This taken into consideration, if you are a 10 year old playing LittleBigPlanet, you won't be willing to appreciate other peoples levels and as far as you can see (in your own mind) your level is ace, and if anyone says differently you'll spam their level comments until they understand that you're right. I'll stop doing my pop-psychology now But don't think this doesn't mean I agree that the LBP create mode is daunting, it's totally daunting. That's why theres loads of tutorials there, but the impatience thing comes back and little kiddywinks don't want to put the bow tie on the man or set the bunny on fire, they want to do their thing so they skip or mash their way through it without paying attention.

2010-11-30 01:42:00 Author: Asbestos101 Posts: 1114

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Part of the fun is not knowing where to start

2010-12-01 14:02:00 Author: alexbull_uk Posts: 1287

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First off let me start by saying, everybody has some good points. I have tried to be a creator but all my projects fall short. I have tried the on-line and video tutorials and they look fine, BUT when I actually try to put into practice it doesn't work. There does need to be a "template" of maybe simple things, like a city scape for an infinite scroller, for example. One point everybody goes back to is, in short, "Ask the community...". I have asked the community on this site, several other sites and even in-game. I have found the community to be pretty lacking in the explanations. There are some of us who have a tougher time learning things than others. However when things like that are mentioned it seems to start mass amounts of flaming or outright being ignored. This, to me, is not a way to build a strong community. I do agree that most creators are egocentric and won't want to make templates or have there levels copyable. That's ok. But DO show ways to achieve results. For example, I have tried several tutorials on how to make an advanced elevator (the simple works like it should) but for some reason when I look at the wiring for the advanced and apply it to my elevator, it just goes ballistic and squashes the sackperson even though they are inside the elevator or the elevator won't stop going up and down on its own. For kids and slower people, there needs to be more step-by-step tutorials detailing what you need to do. ESPECIALLY with the logic. But this can be debated ad nauseum but I think you see my point. The best tutorials I've seen are from comphermc and those don't always work for me. Why? I wish I new even when I do everything exactly as in the tutorial. It all just breaks down and it does get frustrating.

2011-04-12 03:46:00 Author: Kender42 Posts: 38

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The best tutorials I've seen are from comphermc and those don't always work for me. Why? I wish I new even when I do everything exactly as in the tutorial. It all just breaks down and it does get frustrating. Hmmm :> first of all don't panic, 2nd try to think yourself, not same as others. I think you missing feel of tools, what they can do and what to do to achive the result. First of all think what you want to make, try to imagine your level like you would playing it, then think how to achive same effect on create mode with tool on your disposal, if you not doing that then you most likely not even know what you creating. Start with idea, best would be if something uncommon, even crazy and then imagine and create, feel like scenanario guy and director of the show, distance your self as a player (but not complitly) and try to think about them as lab rats, predict what they gonna do and control what they can do. Best would be if you learn how gadgets work how they behave in every situation, try to experiment by yourself insted learn about insted of leason to others about that, think also out of the box ;] this will help you design somethign by yourself, specially with logic, since art is art and its harder to bring it to reality

2011-04-12 04:56:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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I can understand where you're coming from, but there's only so much that people can do for you. The rest comes down to talent (whether you come by it naturally or you've developed it in other technical or artistic endeavors during your life) and practice. The best advice I can give is to start simple. I assume you can already make a door that opens and closes, so maybe the next step is to make a door that opens when a certain set of conditions are right or a door that swings away from the player whether they're approaching from the left or right, and then move on to something slightly more advanced. Most of the people who build fancy elevators didn't start out that way. They built simple ones and then refined the tech as they learned how to use the tools better. About six months after the first Lbp came out, I was so proud of an elevator I'd built (you got in, the door closed, it went up, the door opened, and vise versa when you entered it at the top), but looking back, the tech is ridiculously simple compared to the stuff I build now. That's just how it goes--you have to crawl before you walk.

2011-04-12 05:49:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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I'm kind of in between on this whole debate. On the one hand, some of the stuff really is complicated. I kind of wish there was a section of the tools entitled "behaviors" and there were options like elevators and other common logic. Then, like the control seat, you attach different parts (Ex: Left door, right door). You then position your elevator at "start point" and "end point". It's kind of like gamemaker's drag and drop interface. Sure, you have to know code to make awesome sauce, but you can make some pretty good stuff on the draggable options. On the other hand, with great accessibly comes the loss of precision and potential. Actually, I'm all for this part really. The logic isn't really as complicated as you seem to think. There are now circuit boards so you can set it so things open in order and do things in order. Pistons move up and down. Same with Wenches. So, just break your idea down into it's core components. Use these simple tools in unison. Perhaps you shouldn't be trying for a FPS or top down racer as your first level. Start with platforming. It's what LBP was truly made for, so going with that is probably best. Just keep at it. What a mess of a post XD

2011-04-12 15:13:00 Author: Fading-Dream Posts: 164

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....Pistons move up and down. Same with Wenches.... They sure do...as do winches...which is what I hope you meant....

2011-04-12 19:43:00 Author: EvilWuun Posts: 152

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Probably already mentioned, but can't be bothered reading through 11/12 pages. You don't need a long time at all, I spend about an hour a day creating and I'm fine. My levels aren't the best ever, but I'm proud of them. Just think logically about what you want to do, and chances are it'll work. Oh, and winches only pull, they don't push

2011-04-13 10:58:00 Author: kirbyman62 Posts: 1893

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I don't really believe that LBP2 tools are too complicated in themselves (predictable, easy to operate).. but the tutorials are a bit lacking, and the unofficial documentation does a better job explaining the technical details/gotchas that certain things have (such as super-normal signals that score sensors give). Also, some extra tools would be useful, such as an ability to scale an object (square, for example) to match the width/height of an another object (for those situations when you need to extend something, but forgot to save a model object). Patience-wise, you cannot really help it. Good levels don't really appear out of nowhere, and need lots of work to them. That applies especially when you're a perfectionist like me. Yesterday, it took me 2 hours to perfect an elevator system just the way I want it (can stop on 10 floors/still no unsightly mishmash of floor buttons in the cab, has support for call buttons on floors, doesn't accelerate instantly when going up, etc). Coincidentally, the level is intended to be a (humorously designed) museum of good level design

2011-04-13 11:56:00 Author: OrwellianStuff Posts: 90

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