Archive: 25 posts

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Imagine it's January or February and you're playing LBP2. You've just made an awesome top down racer. There's a few cars and a single track to race around. People love it, it gets thousands of plays and everyone on the internet is talking about how great it is. Now, because this is LBP2 here we're talking games and not just mere levels, so you decide to make your top down racer into a full game, and start by making an extra track and a track select screen at the start. Maybe even add some extra cars and powerups. You want to keep updating your 'game' every few weeks with new stuff for people to enjoy, assuming the thermo can take it (or if it can't, level link to each track). Here's my question - will people actually care???? Not just in the game, but here on LBPC too. Will changing the title of your showcase thread to "v1.1 released" really grab peoples attention as much as a new level would? If cool pages work in a similar way, will updating your level with loads of new content even be noticed amongst all the people who republish 100 times a minute with no changes? Is it better to make your racing game with multiple tracks to begin with, or even publish new levels for each new version? Discuss.

2010-11-06 21:02:00 Author: Nuclearfish Posts: 927

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Hmm.. A very good point. I often found in LBP1 that if I updated a level, (one time completely changing an entire section to improve it), no one really cared/saw it and I only saw a couple of extra plays. I hope Mm do manage to think of a way to make this more noticable...

2010-11-06 21:07:00 Author: Plasmavore Posts: 1913

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Honestly i don't think people will care. Best example i can think of is Is my Sonic Sackbot video (Okay this is about youtube videos but the concept of people caring for updates to levels/videos is the same). When I uploaded a video of it in action (V2 of it, the video of V1 was damaged and sputters when playing it so that doesn't really count) I received a huge amount of views with it. Especially when some famous Japanese blogging site embedded it. (I would post a link to it but with questionable anime ads littering the site.....not risking my account) Then when i decided to improve on it by making a Knuckles and Tails sackbots that follow him, are multiplayer friendly and include tag team moves. Not that many views (like 1/5 of the previous version's video) I even included links to each others videos. I also published a demo to play with them and included lbp.me links in the videos as well. The level was very well received in LBP2 beta (5th most played for that week) but no significant changes to the video's view. And I feel even if i added a versus mode and maybe even make the demo level like an actual decent length sonic level. It won't be recieved as well. Now maybe if you published the greatly improved level as new and it was lucky enough to get back on cool pages, it could do better (especially if it was publsihed on a popular day/week say christmas, or the first week of summer) I guess that means now more then ever we should hold back on publishing or levels until its 100% done, which sucks for me, because i always enjoy publishing bits of my projects then taking my sweet time finishing/improving on them till i see fit

2010-11-06 21:25:00 Author: JKthree Posts: 1125

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Hmm... Well, If we're making entire games for people to play, we're going to have to treat them as new titles coming out for PS3, and so, we're going to see new ideas and possibly (hopefully) new genres of gameplay. None of these will be perfect when they are first released, so people are going to have to release updates, fixing this bug, adding this section, adding a new power up... Etc... But these shouldn't become the be-all-and-end-all of the game. But with the release of LBP.me, people who have made awesome levels would be able to list the changes/updates/etc that they've add to the level, and the faithful followers of afor-said level can appreciate these changes at there leisure. I also think that updates should adopt the number system of: XX.YY (XX been a major update eg: hgame created, entire graphics changed, new style of gameplay, multiplayer support; YY been a minor update, eg: bug fixed, new track added, new power up, new vehicle, etc...). I also believe that if people just keep updating the level with really minor things (ZOMG!!! I TOTALY ADDED THAT EXTRA CORNER ONTO THAT ROCK IN THE THIRD QUARTER OF THE LEVEL!!!!! YAYYZ! I CAN HAZ HEARTZ?!!!!) should stop it. Please? I can has sensible community creators? Best thing is to group all the bugs together and fix them in one fell swoop = 1 UPDATE! Anyway... I think I'm rambling, so I think I'll stop now... I HAS GOT BETA! CAN! No I'm not boasting. I'm bragging. Malyatrax P.S: Seriously, please don't take offence to that last thing. I'm just a drone at a TV with typewriter attachment.

2010-11-06 22:06:00 Author: malyatrax Posts: 130

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Yea, it's little issue, and i was thinking about it after seeing how Standby250's The Lost project gonna work, . There only one way around it but it won't work with everything (like mention The Lost), make Stages as sperate levels and make optional hub level that links all those levels. imo MM should do something about it, but we need to keep in mind they can't allow to boost level in cool pages just by updating level, people would abuse and ofcorse others need there chance too

2010-11-06 22:44:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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i think this changes my chances of getting onto cool pages from .02% to .01%.

2010-11-06 22:59:00 Author: Deftmute Posts: 730

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I think to the general LBP community, no one will care and/or notice. Posting the updates here will definitely get you more plays, but not as if it were new. I think the best thing to do would just be publishing a new level, with the core level and the updates included. Sure, you'll lose all the hearts and so on, but your level will be more likely to get noticed. Maybe you could only delete old levels when you have to, so losing hearts is only a "last-ditch effort" sort of thing.

2010-11-06 23:43:00 Author: piggabling Posts: 2979

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I think for regular levels, people won't care. The situation won't be different from LBP1, so the reaction won't either. But if this Making Games thing really takes off, I can see people who enjoyed a particular game to come back when a new track or weapon or something is added. It will all depend on the replayability of the game.

2010-11-07 00:03:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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Good question!! I guess it depends on the game. If it was a really fun top down racer that you were adding new portals to other tracks or some other set of features that people might enjoy, they might care. I think it would depend on what the main level is like.. if it was simply a gateway to all the new tracks, levels, etc... then that might actually work. If it is just a normal level that you have to play through to find some other portal.. not sure.

2010-11-07 00:08:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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When I republished my Spyro level with a simplistic HUD, I renamed the level to 'Spyro Sackbot Level with HUD' that got it some more plays. But I see your point, Putting V1.1 didn't do much for it as it is now 'Spyro Sackbot Level with HUD. V1.1' and it didn't get many more plays since the previous update. If you're going to update, rename the level with words, not numbers!

2010-11-07 00:13:00 Author: Jedi_1993 Posts: 1518

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Obviously the first thing to consider is the type of update. A simple bug fix or redesign of some visuals isn't going to catch anyone's attention. I think the most important part however, is as Rogar said, the replay value of the level/game. Take adding a new section to your linear platformer for example. Sure it will improve the level and those who play it will have a better experience but for those who played the original, they'll essentially just be replaying it. It's still a good update but it hasn't changed the experience. On the other hand though, If you added extra classes, along with accompanying items and such, to your RPG. Then you've suddenly increased the replay value of your game and are providing the player with a whole new experience.

2010-11-07 01:02:00 Author: SR20DETDOG Posts: 2431

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Unless the culture in lbp changes, no. The only reason i ever go replay a level is: -To see how something was made -Show a friend a really good one You would get better results if instead of updating your level and adding version 1.1 to the end, you add a reasonable amount and name it something else. That would make people think differently in my opinion. EDIT-I think its because people abuse updates, they republish and say VERSION 1.1 WAY BETTER, and in reality they added 2 trees and sticker on the scoreboard. So at least for me, i dont replay "new" versions of levels.

2010-11-07 01:21:00 Author: Jrange378 Posts: 573

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Interesting to see everyone kind of has the same opinion on this. What I was planning on doing, perhaps for the the first level I make when the game is released, is remaking Deflectorball. But not just a simple remake, I've got ideas for at least 5 different arenas, each with their own rules and variations. Instead of making them all before publishing, I was thinking do something more like you'd typically see on somewhere like the Apple app store - release the basic game as it is, then regularly update it not only to add new arenas but different ways to play it. It's the kind of a level you'd play more than once anyway and keep coming back to because it's a competitive multiplayer game. No point in sequels if you can just keep improving and adding to what's already there, right? So yeah, the real problem is that the LBP community aren't used to levels being published this way. Suppose that's no reason not to try and do it a bit differently though... Who knows, maybe it could catch on.

2010-11-07 01:38:00 Author: Nuclearfish Posts: 927

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There could be info about updates in levels that you hearted as an extra list ;] It's not line cool pages but still

2010-11-07 01:45:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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I don't think that people will care. Even if we like the LBP2 marketing catch phrase that we are making games, we are still making levels. Levels that won't be advertised properly by the very game you're making it in. After 7 days (if not less), your level will be buried and gone in the lambs of Little Ghost Planet, where most levels go. You can republish but you'll never climb back the Cool level pages unless you republish on another spot. If you publish on another spot, your stats are starting anew. If it doesn't bother you doing this, a level being published at from time to time and in a different should still recover some plays. I would be surprised that most people that played it will actually not play it again thinking its simply the same level you'Re publishing... but in a different spot. If you strike an MMpick, you could last longer though. The levels that will end up MMpicks will be the most played levels ever in LBP2.

2010-11-07 05:52:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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The only thing in LBP2 that will be an "habit changer" is LBP.me, if you see there, and it's quite easy, what your friends or favorurite creators have done or played, there should be a good chance you'll get onto good stuff.

2010-11-07 06:19:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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I'm not really a fan of mini-games or survivals. I doubt I'll like/heart kart racers and alike. But if you have a decent length, fun platformer and add something like... - Time Trial - Wise cracking sackbot follower (think Daxter) - Achievements - Extra hidden collectables etc.. Then I'd replay it after an update. The thing is, unless the creator directly sent me a message (or I noticed one of my friends playing it via stream), I would never notice that the level has been updated in the first place. I know there is going to be races to have "the first mario" level, etc, so there will obviously be constant updates as some people will publish asap. I'm also hoping for less demos, but I doubt that will happen. (most likely be less compared to beta, but tons will still be released) Like in LBP1, I say make your level as best as possible before you publish.

2010-11-07 07:25:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

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Most people won't be bothered but some will. Also it depends how much is changed and the type of level. If it's just a little bug fix then it won't get much attention. But if it's something more major like a new track or extension on the level then it should get more attention.

2010-11-07 17:43:00 Author: ADS_LEGEND Posts: 140

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I mostly agree with what people are saying here but it seems that everybody is overlooking one thing. The very best community levels pale in comparison to the real games that people can go play, so once you've played a level once or twice and the novelty has worn off, it's just a sub-standard game. I don't mean that to be insulting. It's simply a matter of some guy at home making a level on his ps3 versus teams of trained/experienced programmers/designers. In terms of production values, we really can't compete. That said, Lbp2 has the potential to change things a bit. Logic is quicker and easier to build and takes up very little of the game's resources so we'll have more time and more space to devote to making bigger and better levels. More materials, sounds, decorations, etc means more artistic possibilities so there's the potential for better looking levels. Those may help a bit, but the real clincher here is the ability to make more varied gameplay. In lbp1, it was all the same sackboy and even the best vehicles (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=27374-Most-Advanced-Bipedal-Mech-in-LBP-VT-5-Lightning) were fairly limited in what they could do and how much the player could interact with them, but in lbp2 you can make a playable character or vehicle that's actually fun to control. (http://beta.lbp.me/v/54nz) If it's done well/creatively enough, there's the potential for something that could keep players coming back. Another huge issue is visibility. When it comes to full release video games, there's only so many released per month/year, but in lbp I don't have exact figures, but I think it's safe to say that hundreds or possibly thousands of levels are released daily (anybody care to do the math on 3.whatever million levels divided by the number of days since lbp was first released?) which means that publishing a level is kind of like shouting something in a crowded stadium full of other shouting people. It's a lot harder to get noticed and even if people do notice your work, with all the new stuff coming out all the time, it's a lot harder to keep their attention. RockSauron was bemoaning the fact that the much hyped "LBPC: The Game" basically released to a collective "meh" from the the lbp community, and that was a pretty high profile release as far as lbp goes, and a pretty good set of levels, but it further demonstrates my point: it's very hard to get noticed here even if your work is exceptional. So what to do? I'm really not sure, but I can almost guarantee that "Updated: v2.05" levels won't be getting near the volume of plays you'd like to see--you might see an increase of 5% or so in plays (completely made up/based on nothing statistic). If you release an expansion and you want it to have a lot of exposure, you're going to need to release it as a stand-alone and include a link to it from the original. Then again, if you invent an entirely new genre of gameplay that's fun and maybe even addictive, build the level with a much better-than-normal look/feel, and you advertise the heck out of it, you could potentially have people looking forward to and coming back for your updates.

2010-11-08 08:07:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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I even wonder if it will be possible to have as much plays in LBP2 than in LBP1. It will be easier to make LBP1-like levels, gameplay opens up for better levels than in LBP2 but then again, people might not bother to get out of their way and make great levels if the exposure is worse than in LBP1. The main thing that changed is that people cannot spam the Cool Level pages anymore (wich is a good thing in itself). When you publish or republish your level now it goes into the "newest levels", a category that is deep in the menus and where only a small percentage of users will go. Anyhow, if your level is rated high in their popularity algorythm (that no one knows the exact equation but is probably a mix of unique plays, hearts and positive ratings), you make it high in the cool level pages but it seems harder to stay there. Levels don't stick that much anymore and seems to be bumped more easily. In short, the way to have your level played is to publish the thing and have alot of friends playing it (so your level appears in as many dashboards as possible on LBP.me). Then you republish like in LBP1 and people will also get it from the "newest levels". After that, you pray to make the cool level pages high enough so MM notices your level and maybe would make it a MM pick. Anyhow, seeing how LBP2 is designed, not only that people will not care much or notice your updates but people will even have a harder time getting their stuff noticed at all!

2010-11-08 08:41:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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I usually add fixes and content to my level when it's on the cool levels list (i also add any level update notes in my comment section). After that... I don't really go back to it, even if there are bugs I know needs fixing. There is no point, you already have a large amount of plays. Putting your effort into something that will only gain 0.1% of the plays you got for the level you first released.. not really worth it. But... I have been noticing people are playing my other older levels though my newer ones. So improving your level could be a good thing, as you can use newly developed techniques and it make more impressive and thus increasing your chances of getting a heart. I mostly agree with what people are saying here but it seems that everybody is overlooking one thing. The very best community levels pale in comparison to the real games that people can go play, so once you've played a level once or twice and the novelty has worn off, it's just a sub-standard game. I don't mean that to be insulting. It's simply a matter of some guy at home making a level on his ps3 versus teams of trained/experienced programmers/designers. In terms of production values, we really can't compete. *Cough* Fallout: New Vegas *Cough* That is a full game, and the list of PROBLEMS of its FPS game play is horrendous, I am not kidding, they are trained/experienced programmers/designers and I could compile a massive list of inaccuracy and problems. They use a lot of cheap (lazy) shortcuts to achieve what they want and the mechanics lack any kind of polish and are very clunky, the aiming is bad. It's painful to use L1 to use Iron sights, it's so poorly done. I must note the guns are poorly done as well, poor detail, or lack of detail at all. A lot of people won't notice what I have, but when you're making a FPS in LBP2 you pick these things up. But then again, it makes me fell happy that I can out do a professionally game company with payed workers working full time.

2010-11-08 10:12:00 Author: PPp_Killer Posts: 449

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the list of PROBLEMS of its FPS game play is horrendous ... the mechanics lack any kind of polish and are very clunky, the aiming is bad. It's painful to use L1 to use Iron sights, it's so poorly done. You can turn around though

2010-11-08 10:16:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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You can turn around though Poorly and slowly. But I did ridge up a whole bunch of emitters that emitted different angles of a box room, I could turn left and right, so i could turn around.

2010-11-08 10:25:00 Author: PPp_Killer Posts: 449

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I think there's some hope for updates being noticed - but only in the realm of multiplayer levels and minigames. If somebody made a truly superb multiplayer minigame in LBP2, maybe with a choice of maps and game modes using level linking, I could imagine it becoming an "LBP classic" which people would keep going back to for one more try. That's what happens in the case of full retail games.... most gamers will only play CoD's campaign once, then never revisit it. But they'll keep going back to multiplayer for months on end. The challenge for the creators is make those levels good enough that players feel the desire to play them multiple times. I don't think it'll happen unless there's real gameplay depth. Not a small ask! Also, the creator will have to make it difficult to imitate the level. If you're working on your update and someone publishes a better version of the same idea, everyone will move to the newer thing (just like the actual games industry). All in all, I think it'll be really difficult to get updates noticed... but I don't think it'll be 100% impossible. People working on story levels, meanwhile, still need to get it right first time

2010-11-08 18:01:00 Author: Tig-W Posts: 106

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I usually add fixes and content to my level when it's on the cool levels list (i also add any level update notes in my comment section). After that... I don't really go back to it, even if there are bugs I know needs fixing. There is no point, you already have a large amount of plays. Putting your effort into something that will only gain 0.1% of the plays you got for the level you first released.. not really worth it. Now see that's the wrong attitude imho. Sure, everybody wants their level to get plays, but if you're focusing on the number of plays rather than putting out a quality experience that people will enjoy playing, then you're playing the game for the wrong reason. What are you creating for? Fame? I started playing lbp when it first came out and built up a bit of notoriety on lbw. I certainly wasn't one of the "famous" creators but I was reasonably well known, people showed interest in my creations, and there were at least a few people who looked forward to my next release. I took a six month hiatus and when I came back nobody knew who I was. They all thought I was some new guy who had just bought the game. That's not the kind of fame that I place much stock in. Anyway, my point is that you should be creating because you're passionate about the creation process and perhaps because you want others to enjoy your work. If I were to find out there was a glitch in my oldest published level that I thought I could fix, I would fix it. Of course, on the other hand, I'm a bit embarrassed by the quality of my older stuff and the only reason I don't take it down is because there might be a few people who used the heart system the right way: to bookmark a level that they want to play again; and if I took it down, they wouldn't be able to (I'm still sad that JumpButton took down the first "Skytown" level). So, back to the original question of this thread, I doubt you'll get near the volume of plays that you want from updated levels, so if you're in it for the number of plays, you may as well forget it, but if you're in it to try to make the best levels/games you can, then you should definitely update. You can turn around though Exactly. Even the worst fps game on the market is better than the best lbp fps level (and by the same token, the worst mech game is better than my best lbp mech.... so far )

2010-11-08 18:26:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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